Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
buondì, slowly, the discussion warms up! i've read with much interest the mails from yuval, jan and christoph and i want to focus on three main points: - free(dom) and graphic designers - LG* and free(dom) - LG* and creativity so, let's go! 1. free(dom) and graphic designers in the last few years i had the chance to meet several graphic designers (or other actors in the graphic industry...) which are actively participating in the LG* world. There are many reasons why they are using our software for (part of) their work, but it is fascinating to notice that several kinds of freedom play a bigger role. (free)dom has most of the time to do with not having to pay any money (but they don't stress it too much), not depending on the will of big companies and -- the most pleasant part for me -- having they're workflow freed from a too strong at the same time i also talked a bit about LG with graphic designers, who don't use any LG* software: on the one side, they're not concerned about free(dom) (as yuval wrote) and the other side they don't really seem to be concerned by creativity either. They mostly don't see the point of using an alternative applications suite, they know that LG* will give them only half baked solutions and are mostly concerned about being able to open their existing files. the only 2. LG and freedom ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Thanks for all the email. The discussion has been great. However, it feels like stalemate at the moment, unless i'm misreading. In an effort to filter out the practical aspect of website: It may be that I've not listened to all the bugreports as closely as I should have. Sorry about that! If the website cannot live unless your bug is exterminated, and if nothing has been done about it... can I ask you to re-submit? As a sidenote: two of the bugs that were reported turned out to be misreadings of the first message that Alexandre Leray posted to the list a few weeks ago. Sorry if it was not clear the first time around. To clarify: + the background is dynamic + the squares say m The `original' message: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/create/2009-September/002056.html Le dim 18/10/09 17:59, Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net a écrit: also need to set the text colour, e.g. color: black; Hello, Thanks for the tip; I changed the body color to navy. Best, Alexandre Leray ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: http://img37.imagefra.me/img/img37/2/10/16/prokoudine/f_pegmqmrm_ef846c7.jpg Having seen the background I don't really think this is what you intended people to see. Hello Alexandre, thanks for your report! In your screenshot, it looks like the javascript zoomed/panned on the bottom left corner of the composition, so to me it is showing no (technical) problem. A ways to solve a possible empty rendered background like the one shown in the screenshot would be to add more drawings around the canvas. (see next point) This is something I'm planning. Could you try pointing your browser directly to the background? The address is: http://lgm.alexandreleray.com/static/css/background.svg Doesn't work at all. I only see blank FF page. Sounds *really* strange as it is working on my laptop, and many other computers. Could you Look at the source code? If you can see the SVG source then try to reload a couple of times... if the javascript zooms and pans on the side of the composition it is possible that you get a blank page. It says jQuery is not defined for http://lgm.alexandreleray.com/static/js/jquery.event-playback.js in line 466 I deleted the script declarations, they were there for a test and are no longer used. Does it solve any problem? Cheers, Alexandre Leray. ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Op vrijdag 16-10-2009 om 18:14 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef i...@textzi.net: If that works, then it could be a problem with the iframe. I think using an iframe is a very probable cause of the issues people see... FWIW: I tried the design yesterday in FF 3.5, Opera 10, and 3 different (Gtk-based) browsers that use webkit (in some form or another), and I got something significantly different in each of them. I could try more browsers, but I doubt it will get any better. I also suggest you ask an accessibility expert to have a look at the design, because I won't be surprised if there would be issues for some colorblind or otherwise visibility impaired people there. BTW: the front page of the new site mockup says LGM 2010 will be May 27-30, while the introduction paragraph says May 26-29... ;) -- Jan Claeys ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Femke Snelting wrote: Same.. 3 squares - why 3? why blue? why not 3 red circles? or 4? Abstract can be great, but this seems excessive. At least *something* relating to open source graphics would be nice. Euh... because these particular three squares make an M for Meeting and also a flag :-) Is good you said that. I would never figure this out all by myself :) Alexandre ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: Euh... because these particular three squares make an M for Meeting and also a flag :-) Is good you said that. I would never figure this out all by myself :) That was probably somewhat harsh from me. To make it clear: I care about logo of the event much less than about the event itself. The JavaScript in question didn't actually work for me, and I'm using Firefox 3.5, mind you :) So I can't really say anything about design, because I simply don't see it. I do see http://lgm.alexandreleray.com/static/css/background-fixe.svg at it gives some kind of idea, but again, I don't see the whole thing and I wonder who else does. Alexandre ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
I am really happy with all the positive energy of the current LGM participation. I remember to read all mails by Femke and co, and thought Wow, the next LGM will be great! I am afraid however that the discussion of the new website is mixing How do you like this website? with Should we profile ourself with a consistent style (logo, website, color palette, ...) across the years?. Right now it looks like that there is no fixed style for the LGM. (There is of course always the one from previous year. Although it might have the preference of many, there will be always others to disagree with it.) When there is a call for organizing the next LGM, using a certain style is not part of the task as far as I know. By consequence the style gets reinvented every year, which is not surprising if you give freedom to creative minds. In my humble opinion this means: - We should respect the autonomy of the current organisation and give them the final say in the current design. Feedback is welcome here, but nobody can impose its will the organisation. - The current design can't be imposed for future editions of the LGM, as this would need a broader consensus outside the organisation of the current LGM alone. So basically we've discovered a bug here LGM style gets reinvented every year. Do we mark this bug as valid? If yes, what is the priority of this bug? The people who gives this bug high priority and want to donate time to it, should maybe organize a session in the LGM about 'consistency'. Maybe do a presentation and some workshops as a start. I am afraid that designing a logo and website for such a heterogeneous organisation as LGM will be nearly impossible and might even take more than a year to reach consensus. For me personally this bug has relatively low priority in comparison to other 'bugs'. To be honest I think anyway for the LGM Brussels it is too late to fix this bug. Let's not slow down the development of this organisation and give them the same freedom as the previous editions took in the end. I am sure most people don't resign working for a non profit organisation or a company because they don't like the logo. If I as a visual artist should feel 100% about every title of an exhibition I participate in, I could better stop. It doesn't really matter but in case you want my opinion on the design... Although it would not be my personal preference, as a visual artist I feel the design has objectively a strong quality. It is well done and will for sure appeal to a large group of graphic designers and artists, maybe less to developers and end users. The design has an explicit style and for example mixing the splash into this design would be failure. Logo design is all about communication, so about knowing your target audience. So my only critic on this logo could be that it seems not to target the full potential audience of free graphic software, as shown by reactions on this list. However I still think the design is good and I don't want to interfere with it. Fiddling with this design to reach a consensus risks to make it worse. So I agree completely with the 'package deal' statement of Louis. Organizing a LGM is a huge package and a lot of work. I am sure Louis and previous organizers know this more than anyone else. Concerning the LGM organisation I worry more about other issues: - such as attracting more sponsors so we can let more people participate - next to presentations of developers, presentations of experienced end users which describe their workflow struggle between free graphics applications. Maybe a call for proposals could be launched on all the website of free graphics software simultaneously? - or maybe organize a survey amongst end users about their workflow and present the result of that - ask end users to submit video screencasts of their workflow ... - ... Concerning LGM as the glue between graphics projects my concerns would be: - interoperability of file formats - if every application could have an (optional) keymap which is unified for common tasks - use the same words (and if possible menu structure) for common tasks - ... Right now free software projects start spending more attention to usability. It would be great if LGM could be a driver behind usability between applications. Maybe not all applications want to participate, but for sure some do. And hey Yuval, I hope you participate again at LGM Brussels! LGM needs people like you. Although I agree with you that Peters reply was offensive, it is no reason not to participate. ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: Euh... because these particular three squares make an M for Meeting and also a flag :-) Is good you said that. I would never figure this out all by myself :) That was probably somewhat harsh from me. To make it clear: I care about logo of the event much less than about the event itself. The no need to apologise for harshness! it's about feedback. Thanks a lot for your comments :) JavaScript in question didn't actually work for me, and I'm using Firefox 3.5, mind you :) So I can't really say anything about design, because I simply don't see it. I do see http://lgm.alexandreleray.com/static/css/background-fixe.svg at it I'm sorry you cannot see it. I want you to see it :) Could you give me more details on what you see/what you don't? Could you try pointing your browser directly to the background? The address is: http://lgm.alexandreleray.com/static/css/background.svg If that works, then it could be a problem with the iframe. Sorry, don't know so much about the differences between firefox versions... Could you check you Firefox error console, and tell me if I should know about any errors? gives some kind of idea, but again, I don't see the whole thing and I wonder who else does. I wonder the same. Please report any problems :) Ivan ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Ivan wrote: JavaScript in question didn't actually work for me, and I'm using Firefox 3.5, mind you :) So I can't really say anything about design, because I simply don't see it. I do see http://lgm.alexandreleray.com/static/css/background-fixe.svg at it I'm sorry you cannot see it. I want you to see it :) Could you give me more details on what you see/what you don't? http://cs1064.vkontakte.ru/u112640/13323611/x_911c8de1.jpg Having seen the background I don't really think this is what you intended people to see. I'm not sure about using yellow for background, but I leave this to you :) Could you try pointing your browser directly to the background? The address is: http://lgm.alexandreleray.com/static/css/background.svg Doesn't work at all. I only see blank FF page. If that works, then it could be a problem with the iframe. Sorry, don't know so much about the differences between firefox versions... Could you check you Firefox error console, and tell me if I should know about any errors? It says jQuery is not defined for http://lgm.alexandreleray.com/static/js/jquery.event-playback.js in line 466 Alexandre ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Ivan wrote: JavaScript in question didn't actually work for me, and I'm using Firefox 3.5, mind you :) So I can't really say anything about design, because I simply don't see it. I do see http://lgm.alexandreleray.com/static/css/background-fixe.svg at it I'm sorry you cannot see it. I want you to see it :) Could you give me more details on what you see/what you don't? http://cs1064.vkontakte.ru/u112640/13323611/x_911c8de1.jpg So much for clipboard :) http://img37.imagefra.me/img/img37/2/10/16/prokoudine/f_pegmqmrm_ef846c7.jpg Alexandre ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Stani wrote: I am really happy with all the positive energy of the current LGM participation. I remember to read all mails by Femke and co, and thought Wow, the next LGM will be great! I am afraid however that the discussion of the new website is mixing How do you like this website? with Should we profile ourself with a consistent style (logo, website, color palette, ...) across the years?. LGM has always been about getting artists and developers of creative free software in one place, and see what happens. In the first one, the policy of lots of free time, with a few sync points that were presentations, worked well, and allowed us to educate everyone about things like colour management, while allowing teams to meet plan. In the second one, Louis succeeded much better than I did in getting artist participation. I don't believe that we need a unifying visual identity, nor do I believe that the website is particularly important for LGM - it is, after all, a support for an event, which lives for about 6 months a year. It feels natural to me that, like the olympics, we have some unifying element, but that the feel of the individual events is up to the organisers. One thing I think that the next LGM could do is to make it an artists convention, where the developers are invited - I'd love to see a presentation schedule with just artists showing off their tools, and have as many people from DeviantArt as from the various developer lists. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary dne...@free.fr Tel: +33 9 51 13 46 45 Cell: +33 6 77 01 92 13 ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Dave Neary wrote: One thing I think that the next LGM could do is to make it an artists convention, where the developers are invited - I'd love to see a presentation schedule with just artists showing off their tools, and have as many people from DeviantArt as from the various developer lists. That would be a little too much, but more actual users attending the conference is a must indeed. Alexandre ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Am 16.10.09, 18:14 +0200 schrieb i...@textzi.net: On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: ... gives some kind of idea, but again, I don't see the whole thing and I wonder who else does. I wonder the same. Please report any problems :) Ivan The background seems to change every time I reload. Its the same for FF2 and two FF's3. My guess is now, this happens by intention. In FF3 its possible to define a own background colour. As the site design explicitely states, which colours are used for text (mainly blue and red, but as well black) it would be fine to define the background too (say white?). kind regards Kai-Uwe Behrmann -- developing for colour management www.behrmann.name + www.oyranos.org ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Alexandre Leray a écrit : Thanks Louis! Sorry for being silent for a while: we do feel passionate about many of the issues discussed here, which is why our design looks the way it looks. Our first concern now is to get the LGM site launched sooner rather than later, so here's an attempt to go back to the concrete issue of the LGM site/logo: First of all, we designed a visual/typographic identity to the yearly Libre Graphics Meetings (and not to all Libre Graphics projects). To summarize (sorry if I misrepresent): - it looks beautiful amazing etc. (some of you :-)) - background yellow over-saturated (many of you) - concern about visual continuity (a.l.e, Tobias) - site looking 'too technical' (Tobias) - finding logo too generic (Tobias) The main issue for OSP, is that we don't think continuity can be resolved by going back to the paint splash. We honestly feel it misrepresents the pleasure of using and developing Libre Graphics Tools and we have consciously decided to work with imagery that avoids such remediation. So for us, it is a package deal! Diversity of projects and people present at LGM is important so the background represents the different materials we share between us (designers, developers, artists). Since the meeting is a yearly point of convergence, we thought it needed to mark the occasion by some kind of flag. We think that the logo would look fantastic on LGM merchandising, it is a strong graphic signature and the site-background can be used in many other ways too. We don't know really when/how to reach a consensus but hope your enthusiasm prevails :-) all the best from Brussels Alexandre Leray and OSP The logo you have developed is actually very strong and I don’t see the point of going back to the splash now that we have this new logo. As for the webiste, I think it must be online asap. We cannot afford discussing about how the website looks too long unless someone come up identifying serious flaws in terms of communication and functionnality. Those comments would need to be based on an objective reality and not from a subjective point of view. I agree that the actual proposal is way beyond the previous discussions we had about the logo. If the majority of LGMers think that we should keep on track with the work that was done previously, then we’re going to have to discuss more. But at the same time I must say that your explanation is cristal clear and speaking of priorities, I think that we need the website online asap. In this discussion, unless someone comes up with another project, it’s going to be difficult to discuss every detail and try to make everyone happy. In fact, by experience, this will not happen. I *strongly* believe a committee cannot come up with a graphic solution. So, yes, it’s a package deal and I hope we can live with it and with enthusiasm ! While speaking about the communication, I would stress that this is the 5th year. I think 5 is a strong number! Can’t wait to be in Brussels! Cheers! Louis Louis Desjardins wrote: Just as a friendly reminder to all participants to this delightful conversation, this thread is (was) about LGM 2010 Website. Can we either split the thread or get back to the original discussion or both ? I am trying to follow... :-) Louis 2009/10/7 Yuval Levy creat...@sfina.com mailto:creat...@sfina.com Christoph Schäfer wrote: Am Mittwoch, 7. Oktober 2009 08:33:26 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine: Does Scribus import SVG flawlessly? No, and you know why. I don't. would you care to enlighten me? As a simple user I find it bizarre that when specs are publicly available; and Free implementations are available too; that it is not the same implementation used in all tools. Isn't this easier to do than trying to change UI toolkit? How easy is it to use a program that's not part of a certain vendor's portfolio, but actually more suited to the task in a workflow? Being part of the portfolio and having unified UI is mostly eye candy. Being able to pass smoothly files through the different steps in the workflow is much more important. File format support as precognized by Alexandre; and multi-platform support. Ideally *all* file formats: existing and not yet invented; standardized and work in progress; obsolete and current; encrypted; approved; disapproved; and anything else I forgot. Same for platforms. Give the user the freedom to choose which UI he wants to interact with. make sure he can open and use his files, no matter what tool/UI he chooses. Yuv ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Louis Desjardins wrote: The logo you have developed is actually very strong and I don’t see the point of going back to the splash now that we have this new logo. I have no particular attachment to any of the logos. I do have preferences, which I expressed in the round for *subjective* opinions. That round is over. My 2 cents were there. IIRC there is at least one *objective* point: background saturation / readability. Has it been solved? In this discussion, unless someone comes up with another project, it’s going to be difficult to discuss every detail and try to make everyone happy. While I generally agree that it is difficult to discuss every detail and practically impossible to make everyone happy, I have difficulties to accept such a stance about the logo. A logo is not a detail. It is meant to represent us - whatever us means and whoever us is. I honestly feel more attachement to the ink splash than to three abstract squares. it’s a package deal and I hope we can live with it and with enthusiasm ! is there an alternative? sounds like take it or leave it to me. The power of Open Source is that there is no package deal. Mix, Match, Remix. If you do it the right way, people will follow with enthusiasm. Yuv ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
In this discussion, unless someone comes up with another project, it’s going to be difficult to discuss every detail and try to make everyone happy. While I generally agree that it is difficult to discuss every detail and practically impossible to make everyone happy, I have difficulties to accept such a stance about the logo. A logo is not a detail. It is meant to represent us - whatever us means and whoever us is. I honestly feel more attachement to the ink splash than to three abstract squares. Same.. 3 squares - why 3? why blue? why not 3 red circles? or 4? Abstract can be great, but this seems excessive. At least *something* relating to open source graphics would be nice. it’s a package deal and I hope we can live with it and with enthusiasm ! is there an alternative? sounds like take it or leave it to me. The power of Open Source is that there is no package deal. Mix, Match, Remix. If you do it the right way, people will follow with enthusiasm. Exactly Craig ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Alexandre Leray wrote: Thanks Louis! Sorry for being silent for a while: we do feel passionate about many of the issues discussed here, which is why our design looks the way it looks. Our first concern now is to get the LGM site launched sooner rather than later, so here's an attempt to go back to the concrete issue of the LGM site/logo: First of all, we designed a visual/typographic identity to the yearly Libre Graphics Meetings (and not to all Libre Graphics projects). To summarize (sorry if I misrepresent): - it looks beautiful amazing etc. (some of you :-)) - background yellow over-saturated (many of you) - concern about visual continuity (a.l.e, Tobias) - site looking 'too technical' (Tobias) - finding logo too generic (Tobias) The main issue for OSP, is that we don't think continuity can be resolved by going back to the paint splash. We honestly feel it misrepresents the pleasure of using and developing Libre Graphics Tools and we have consciously decided to work with imagery that avoids such remediation. So for us, it is a package deal! Diversity of projects and people present at LGM is important so the background represents the different materials we share between us (designers, developers, artists). Since the meeting is a yearly point of convergence, we thought it needed to mark the occasion by some kind of flag. We think that the logo would look fantastic on LGM merchandising, it is a strong graphic signature and the site-background can be used in many other ways too. For me, the 2007 logo was the best so far (http://www.libregraphicsmeeting.org/2007/index.html). I am ok to dump the splash, but to me, 3 slightly offset/differently sized squares says nothing about the subject, doesn't look free and is not eye catching. Craig ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Thanks Louis! Sorry for being silent for a while: we do feel passionate about many of the issues discussed here, which is why our design looks the way it looks. Our first concern now is to get the LGM site launched sooner rather than later, so here's an attempt to go back to the concrete issue of the LGM site/logo: First of all, we designed a visual/typographic identity to the yearly Libre Graphics Meetings (and not to all Libre Graphics projects). To summarize (sorry if I misrepresent): - it looks beautiful amazing etc. (some of you :-)) - background yellow over-saturated (many of you) - concern about visual continuity (a.l.e, Tobias) - site looking 'too technical' (Tobias) - finding logo too generic (Tobias) The main issue for OSP, is that we don't think continuity can be resolved by going back to the paint splash. We honestly feel it misrepresents the pleasure of using and developing Libre Graphics Tools and we have consciously decided to work with imagery that avoids such remediation. So for us, it is a package deal! Diversity of projects and people present at LGM is important so the background represents the different materials we share between us (designers, developers, artists). Since the meeting is a yearly point of convergence, we thought it needed to mark the occasion by some kind of flag. We think that the logo would look fantastic on LGM merchandising, it is a strong graphic signature and the site-background can be used in many other ways too. We don't know really when/how to reach a consensus but hope your enthusiasm prevails :-) all the best from Brussels Alexandre Leray and OSP Louis Desjardins wrote: Just as a friendly reminder to all participants to this delightful conversation, this thread is (was) about LGM 2010 Website. Can we either split the thread or get back to the original discussion or both ? I am trying to follow... :-) Louis 2009/10/7 Yuval Levy creat...@sfina.com mailto:creat...@sfina.com Christoph Schäfer wrote: Am Mittwoch, 7. Oktober 2009 08:33:26 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine: Does Scribus import SVG flawlessly? No, and you know why. I don't. would you care to enlighten me? As a simple user I find it bizarre that when specs are publicly available; and Free implementations are available too; that it is not the same implementation used in all tools. Isn't this easier to do than trying to change UI toolkit? How easy is it to use a program that's not part of a certain vendor's portfolio, but actually more suited to the task in a workflow? Being part of the portfolio and having unified UI is mostly eye candy. Being able to pass smoothly files through the different steps in the workflow is much more important. File format support as precognized by Alexandre; and multi-platform support. Ideally *all* file formats: existing and not yet invented; standardized and work in progress; obsolete and current; encrypted; approved; disapproved; and anything else I forgot. Same for platforms. Give the user the freedom to choose which UI he wants to interact with. make sure he can open and use his files, no matter what tool/UI he chooses. Yuv ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org mailto:CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
On Oct 7, 2009, at 12:17 AM, Christoph Schäfer wrote: Since you are aware of of my (strictly personal) distaste for Gnome, I won't comment any further, except that we seemed to agree at some point that the Gnome/GTK+ file dialogs are a PITA ;P Just a minor data point. With Inkscape on Win32 we are seeing about half the users who really want the Gnome/GTK+ file dialogs, and half who want the native Windows ones. I think this is one point where user preference is good, since different users have different needs and even different ways of mentally processing information. I'd wager that the Qt dialogs are better for some people too, and that we might even see an even spread of user preference. Whereas overwhelming people with options is perhaps suboptimal, generally at least some choice is good. ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Christoph Schäfer wrote: 100% agreed, although better integration between different applications is certainly not a bad idea. Hence the idea of a specialised and neatly integrated Linux distro. Just how many more Ubuntu Studio, 64 Studio and AGNULAs do we *really* need? :) No, no and no. Integration between apps = transparent support for file formats. Does Scribus import SVG flawlessly? Can GIMP render SVG so that all shapes and SVG filters are editable? Can you save a multilayered ORA with clipping paths fron GIMP and manage layers/paths in Scribus (like you can with TIFF and PSD)? Pick any pro user who does complete packages for companies (from web-site to TV promos) and he'll tell you how easily you can pass data between Ai, Ps, Fl and Ae. Yet another distro won't get us there and there are people already who do creative distributions already, based on Debian, Fedora, Slackware and whatnot. While the latter is true, the former isn't, at least IMHO, and it's not just look'n' feel. Just look at the different file dialogs in, say, FontForge, a GTK+ app, a KDE app and a Qt app. Please stop using 199x distros :) Modern Qt4 apps can use Gtk+ file dialogs just fine when launched in GNOME :) 2) As I wrote, we need a real website. A wiki, with all of its limitations, should be used for dicussions and the more technical stuff. That's the plan also discussed during the last LGM. Alessandro is your primary contact here. Alexandre ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Am Mittwoch, 7. Oktober 2009 08:33:26 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine: On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Christoph Schäfer wrote: 100% agreed, although better integration between different applications is certainly not a bad idea. Hence the idea of a specialised and neatly integrated Linux distro. Just how many more Ubuntu Studio, 64 Studio and AGNULAs do we *really* need? :) What we need is a distro created by people who know what they are doing, not attempts by people who don't! No, no and no. Integration between apps = transparent support for file formats. Does Scribus import SVG flawlessly? No, and you know why. Can GIMP render SVG so that all shapes and SVG filters are editable? Same as above. Can you save a multilayered ORA with clipping paths fron GIMP and manage layers/paths in Scribus (like you can with TIFF and PSD)? Since when is ORA even close to being a finished spec? Pick any pro user who does complete packages for companies (from web-site to TV promos) and he'll tell you how easily you can pass data between Ai, Ps, Fl and Ae. Yet another distro won't get us there and there are people already who do creative distributions already, based on Debian, Fedora, Slackware and whatnot. See above. And btw.: How easy is it to use a program that's not part of a certain vendor's portfolio, but actually more suited to the task in a workflow? I agree with you in that [y]et another distro won't get us there, but else you seem to be advocating an authoritarian approach. It won't happen, no matter how often you claim superior knowledge -- sorry for this, but your arrogant tone almost asked for a retaliation ;P Moreover, I'd be glad if you were more careful with statements like Pick any pro user. Like it or not, there are millions of professionals out there who use a mix of different applications and vendors to get their work done. While the latter is true, the former isn't, at least IMHO, and it's not just look'n' feel. Just look at the different file dialogs in, say, FontForge, a GTK+ app, a KDE app and a Qt app. Please stop using 199x distros :) Modern Qt4 apps can use Gtk+ file dialogs just fine when launched in GNOME Since you are aware of of my (strictly personal) distaste for Gnome, I won't comment any further, except that we seemed to agree at some point that the Gnome/GTK+ file dialogs are a PITA ;P Christoph ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Christoph Schäfer wrote: Just how many more Ubuntu Studio, 64 Studio and AGNULAs do we *really* need? :) What we need is a distro created by people who know what they are doing, not attempts by people who don't! 64 Studio, for instance, is created by people who are actually damn good at creative work. Surely I don't have to remind you that it's always better to check facts and *then* talk? Can you save a multilayered ORA with clipping paths fron GIMP and manage layers/paths in Scribus (like you can with TIFF and PSD)? Since when is ORA even close to being a finished spec? Heh, SVG *is* a finished spec. Does it help supporting it well? Sorry, but your argument doesn't work. Do come up with something else, please :) My point is that free/libre apps have very poor interaction at present time, be it graphics or audio. For various reasons. Lately this has been changing with e.g. MyPaint adopting ORA as native format and its team creating an I/O filter for GIMP, or LASH slowly becoming a good enough solution for audio sessions management, but clearly this is not enough. It's just like with GIMP -- pro users can excuse some non-optimal UI solutions if they have access to a number of well-know hi-fi/end features to get the job done. Getting job done in the real world among other things means you can always open a file you were sent by a client. But right now people have problems even creating 100% FLOSS based workflows, and no -- it has nothing to do with particular distributions or desktop environments or toolkits, no matter how *you* like bashing Gtk+, GNOME and Ubuntu. A good part of the reason is in lack of contributors. But the other half is that working on file formats support is a bloody boring work that very few people want to do. Pick any pro user who does complete packages for companies (from web-site to TV promos) and he'll tell you how easily you can pass data between Ai, Ps, Fl and Ae. Yet another distro won't get us there and there are people already who do creative distributions already, based on Debian, Fedora, Slackware and whatnot. See above. And btw.: How easy is it to use a program that's not part of a certain vendor's portfolio, but actually more suited to the task in a workflow? Try opening a CDR from X4 in AI CS4 sometime. I agree with you in that [y]et another distro won't get us there, but else you seem to be advocating an authoritarian approach. It won't happen, no matter how often you claim superior knowledge -- sorry for this, but your arrogant tone almost asked for a retaliation ;P This knowldege is not superior, it's just not evenly distributed among humans :) Sorry to see you in the thinner later :) Moreover, I'd be glad if you were more careful with statements like Pick any pro user. Like it or not, there are millions of professionals out there who use a mix of different applications and vendors to get their work done. Pick any pro CS user. Do you like it better now? :) Please stop using 199x distros :) Modern Qt4 apps can use Gtk+ file dialogs just fine when launched in GNOME Since you are aware of of my (strictly personal) distaste for Gnome, I won't comment any further, except that we seemed to agree at some point that the Gnome/GTK+ file dialogs are a PITA ;P Wrong EOT for me. You contradict for the sake of contradiction. This is leading nowhere. Piece, Alexandre ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Christoph Schäfer wrote: Am Mittwoch, 7. Oktober 2009 08:33:26 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine: Does Scribus import SVG flawlessly? No, and you know why. I don't. would you care to enlighten me? As a simple user I find it bizarre that when specs are publicly available; and Free implementations are available too; that it is not the same implementation used in all tools. Isn't this easier to do than trying to change UI toolkit? How easy is it to use a program that's not part of a certain vendor's portfolio, but actually more suited to the task in a workflow? Being part of the portfolio and having unified UI is mostly eye candy. Being able to pass smoothly files through the different steps in the workflow is much more important. File format support as precognized by Alexandre; and multi-platform support. Ideally *all* file formats: existing and not yet invented; standardized and work in progress; obsolete and current; encrypted; approved; disapproved; and anything else I forgot. Same for platforms. Give the user the freedom to choose which UI he wants to interact with. make sure he can open and use his files, no matter what tool/UI he chooses. Yuv ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Just as a friendly reminder to all participants to this delightful conversation, this thread is (was) about LGM 2010 Website. Can we either split the thread or get back to the original discussion or both ? I am trying to follow... :-) Louis 2009/10/7 Yuval Levy creat...@sfina.com Christoph Schäfer wrote: Am Mittwoch, 7. Oktober 2009 08:33:26 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine: Does Scribus import SVG flawlessly? No, and you know why. I don't. would you care to enlighten me? As a simple user I find it bizarre that when specs are publicly available; and Free implementations are available too; that it is not the same implementation used in all tools. Isn't this easier to do than trying to change UI toolkit? How easy is it to use a program that's not part of a certain vendor's portfolio, but actually more suited to the task in a workflow? Being part of the portfolio and having unified UI is mostly eye candy. Being able to pass smoothly files through the different steps in the workflow is much more important. File format support as precognized by Alexandre; and multi-platform support. Ideally *all* file formats: existing and not yet invented; standardized and work in progress; obsolete and current; encrypted; approved; disapproved; and anything else I forgot. Same for platforms. Give the user the freedom to choose which UI he wants to interact with. make sure he can open and use his files, no matter what tool/UI he chooses. Yuv ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Christoph Schäfer wrote: at least in my opinion, is the attitude of some developers, which comes down to: You don't like something or desperately need a feature? Well, here's the Free code, go and do it yourself. This is a safe way to turn users, especially professionals, away from Free software, because they have better things to do. And no, we cannot compare creative professionals to IT professionals, since the latter are expected to have programming experience, while the former are not. it's a fine line. do it yourself is sure a harsh answer. but how about: sponsor a bounty? do some testing? help us with a website? handbooks? translations? in the end, these tools only work if they are made by the users for the users. I started as a user with no clue of C++ and increased my involvement in Hugin. It's a give and take. If the feedback is good, I'll give more. If it is bad, I'll find alternatives (including opening up my wallet for a closed software package). And it's two ways. Now that I am on the developers side, I coach and help users that shows an open attitude, and I am allergic to users that expect service (whatever they mean by that). Jan's original point was the idea of a Free alternative to Adobe's CS Suite. do we need to be a Free alternative to Adobe's CS Suite? can't we be something different? and better? until not so long ago, Hugin had on its Sourceforge description: similar to Windows tools PTgui and PTassembler. I don't have to define myself in relationship to them. Hugin now has a legitimate standing on its own, and on many areas is better than the two mentioned tools. me-too? no-thanks. FLOSS graphics projects suffer from the use of different UI toolkits, like GTK+ or Qt. suffer? why suffer? make it an advantage! I'm pretty much agnostic in terms of UI toolkits as long as it enables me to achieve a result in the least possible number of keystrokes and mouse clicks. Others may have stronger preferences. We also have multiple tools to achieve the same results, while the commercial competition streamlines its offering, acquiring competing products and shutting them down. This too is an advantage of FLOSS. Nobody will take the carpet under your feet, forcing you to learn Illustrator because FreeHand is being euthanized. but on Windows, OS X or even eComStation, all bets are off. And of course I expect some people to step up right here and claim that people shouldn't use these platforms, while in reality they do and also don't care about statements that operating system xyz or desktop abc sucks. It's what they have and are used to. indeed, think *USER CENTRIC*. where there is a user there is a need. and where there is a critical mass of users, there is support. Things being what they are, there is actually a constant flow of information between most projects, albeit most of the time in the respective IRC channels or mailing lists (Oh, and I can't remember having met you in the #create channel ;) ) IRC does not work for me. Sorry. And I have a problem with its transient nature. I prefer mailing lists, with archives one can draw on later on. Human beings without history are lost (and dangerous). We still don't learn all there is to learn in history, but having archives and being able to discuss asynchronously and without being on-line is a bonus. And don't mention Google Wave to me, you'd get a serious rant (I surf the web with noscript completely locked up. I don't like aggressive marketing. I don't like to be targeted - directly or indirectly, I like to keep my privacy). And since the Create Wiki seems to be the homepage of the project, I'd say it is in desperate need of an overhaul (and to be honest, we'd rather need a decent and visually appealing website for Create, independent of the Wiki). honestly, I don't even recall the URL of the Create Wiki, and when I google create wiki it happens to be in competition with a lot of other uses :-) I believe content comes before form (even though for a bunch of graphics project, the form must look good, I agree). And I got some decent results at energize our community around [0]. The wiki alone is not enough. People don't visit a Wiki automatically. They do visit their inbox every morning. Whoever works on the Wiki should post updates (with a link) here. I've begged our users a few times to document building for the different platforms, until the snowball started to roll. I could have never done this alone. In the case of Create, I would not even know where to start. I don't want to step on anybody's toes. And I also have not found anything there that itches me and that it is in the realm of what I consider a realistic target for myself / something I can contribute positively to. These are my personal views. YMMV. [0] http://wiki.panotools.org/Development_of_Open_Source_tools ___ CREATE mailing list
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Am Mittwoch, 7. Oktober 2009 04:43:11 schrieb Yuval Levy: Christoph Schäfer wrote: at least in my opinion, is the attitude of some developers, which comes down to: You don't like something or desperately need a feature? Well, here's the Free code, go and do it yourself. This is a safe way to turn users, especially professionals, away from Free software, because they have better things to do. And no, we cannot compare creative professionals to IT professionals, since the latter are expected to have programming experience, while the former are not. it's a fine line. do it yourself is sure a harsh answer. but how about: sponsor a bounty? do some testing? help us with a website? handbooks? translations? I absolutely agree, and I don't even say this kind of unfriendly Eric Raymond answer is the rule, especially in Free Graphics community, but it still happens. One thing that could be stressed in a positive sense is that Free Software _enables_ users to shape a project they like or rely on more directly than they could with software developed behind closed and developers dependent of budgets and marketing strategies. And involvement need not mean programming, as there are many other tasks left. in the end, these tools only work if they are made by the users for the users. I started as a user with no clue of C++ and increased my involvement in Hugin. It's a give and take. If the feedback is good, I'll give more. If it is bad, I'll find alternatives (including opening up my wallet for a closed software package). And it's two ways. Now that I am on the developers side, I coach and help users that shows an open attitude, and I am allergic to users that expect service (whatever they mean by that). Well, I think that users should expect a certain degree of service (e.g. support or feedback to bug reports), but in general the free service of Open Source projects is already much better, i.e. faster and more competent than the one for closed source packages (some small companies being the exception to the rule). Remember that Adobe apologised publicly for its abysmal service a few weeks ago! Jan's original point was the idea of a Free alternative to Adobe's CS Suite. do we need to be a Free alternative to Adobe's CS Suite? can't we be something different? and better? until not so long ago, Hugin had on its Sourceforge description: similar to Windows tools PTgui and PTassembler. I don't have to define myself in relationship to them. Hugin now has a legitimate standing on its own, and on many areas is better than the two mentioned tools. me-too? no-thanks. 100% agreed, although better integration between different applications is certainly not a bad idea. Hence the idea of a specialised and neatly integrated Linux distro. FLOSS graphics projects suffer from the use of different UI toolkits, like GTK+ or Qt. suffer? why suffer? make it an advantage! I'm pretty much agnostic in terms of UI toolkits as long as it enables me to achieve a result in the least possible number of keystrokes and mouse clicks. Others may have stronger preferences. We also have multiple tools to achieve the same results, while the commercial competition streamlines its offering, acquiring competing products and shutting them down. This too is an advantage of FLOSS. Nobody will take the carpet under your feet, forcing you to learn Illustrator because FreeHand is being euthanized. While the latter is true, the former isn't, at least IMHO, and it's not just look'n' feel. Just look at the different file dialogs in, say, FontForge, a GTK+ app, a KDE app and a Qt app. but on Windows, OS X or even eComStation, all bets are off. And of course I expect some people to step up right here and claim that people shouldn't use these platforms, while in reality they do and also don't care about statements that operating system xyz or desktop abc sucks. It's what they have and are used to. indeed, think *USER CENTRIC*. where there is a user there is a need. and where there is a critical mass of users, there is support. Things being what they are, there is actually a constant flow of information between most projects, albeit most of the time in the respective IRC channels or mailing lists (Oh, and I can't remember having met you in the #create channel ;) ) IRC does not work for me. Sorry. And I have a problem with its transient nature. I prefer mailing lists, with archives one can draw on later on. Human beings without history are lost (and dangerous). We still don't learn all there is to learn in history, but having archives and being able to discuss asynchronously and without being on-line is a bonus. And don't mention Google Wave to me, you'd get a serious rant (I surf the web with noscript completely locked up. I don't like aggressive marketing. I don't like to be targeted - directly or indirectly, I like to keep my privacy). And since the Create Wiki
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
I was really hoping to see more discourse, more opinions, more energy... Dave Neary wrote: Yuval Levy wrote: Creative Suite refers to the most important feature of that software: it is part of a suite and it is for creative use. The most important feature of the software is surely the freedom we give our users, no? Creative Suite sounds like something that Adobe or Corel would have already trademarked to me, even if it weren't already an Adobe thing - it screams multi-thousand dollar commercial software. The most important *to you*, Dave. Let me rephrase. there is no *absolute* most important feature of the software. It's a matter of personal, *relative* perception. The question is: what is the most important feature of the software *in the mind of each individual*? and how can we appeal to that inner image in the majority of individuals? you and I may share a similar view about multi-thousand dollar *c*ommercial *s*oftware. Is this what the majority of people *here* see? likely. Is this what the majority of people in the general public see? I doubt it. To me an iPhone/iPod is a jail. And to you? I am afraid that Freedom is not high on the list of what appeals to the general public. Sure, everybody likes free beer, but free speech? Some prefer to be free to choose; and some prefer to be free of the burden and responsibility that come with choice. Voters turn out (at least in the Western world) speak clearly about the majority's preferences. Yuv ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
hi yuv I was really hoping to see more discourse, more opinions, more energy... i wanted to post a well elaborated mail, but -- exactly! -- i missed some energy over the weekend. Creative Suite refers to the most important feature of that software: it is part of a suite and it is for creative use. The most important feature of the software is surely the freedom we give our users, no? Creative Suite sounds like something that Adobe or Corel would have already trademarked to me, even if it weren'talready an Adobe thing - it screams multi-thousand dollar commercial software. The most important *to you*, Dave. this is exactly the point of the mail i was writing (and that i may still send in the next future to better detail my position). when looking for a new logo, a new website, even a new name, we have to respect the fact that freedom means different things to different people and that the LG* (existing or potential) user base mostly don't care of any other freedom than not having to pay for their software. it's a bit of a contradiction, but today most (computer based) creative people simply don't care about the tool they are using and just go for what they are used to. they may start praise liberty once they start using free tools, but before: no chance. even graphic designers and artists who are focused on open content and social freedom activists don't care about their tools! on the other side, for most LG* activist and developers (most of all for the loudest and most active ones) freedom is the corner stone of LG*. we can't and shouldn't ignore it! (i won't give move details on this point, since i suppose that i am talking to you!) also the fact that the graphic designer and artists, who are active in the LG* world praise the gain in creative liberty they achieved with free tools should be a sign that we should not give up the promotion of the libre/free side of LG*. summarizing my point of view: libre is an essential element of LG* but the promotion of LG* has to focus (and promote) other values, too (like creativity). voilà, and the next time i will try to bring some more concrete proposals... have a nice day a.l.e ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Hi, Wow, that's a lot of stuff deal with :) Am Samstag, 3. Oktober 2009 06:27:51 schrieb Yuval Levy: Jan Claeys wrote: What about s/Libre/Liberation/ or s/Libre/Liberty/ ? honestly and directly: the concept of Freedom (and it does not matter what synonyms are being used) is overloaded, overburdened, and IMO far from central to what our tools are and do. This may be nitpicking, but in a sense it _is_ important, because without the concept of freedom, many, if not most, tools wouldn't exist or evolve at all. snip They don't see Freedom as we do. To them, dealing with the source code is actually a burden. They rather be free from it than free to do it. They prefer freeware to Free software. As much as we love to lift the car's hood and fiddle with the motor, they dread it. And I am not interested preaching Freedom to them. Freedom may not be the major selling point from a marketing point of view, and there's no reason to preach its values. What's more important, though, at least in my opinion, is the attitude of some developers, which comes down to: You don't like something or desperately need a feature? Well, here's the Free code, go and do it yourself. This is a safe way to turn users, especially professionals, away from Free software, because they have better things to do. And no, we cannot compare creative professionals to IT professionals, since the latter are expected to have programming experience, while the former are not. Or use CLS for Creativity Liberation Suite... ;-) (It liberates your creativity in both artistic philosophical ways!) I don't need to have my creativity liberated. neither artistically nor philosophically. Jan's original point was the idea of a Free alternative to Adobe's CS Suite. While this idea may be tempting, I don't see any reasonable way to achieve this any time soon. First, FLOSS graphics projects suffer from the use of different UI toolkits, like GTK+ or Qt. The problems arising out of this can be worked around on the Linux/BSD desktop (at least for the major distros), but on Windows, OS X or even eComStation, all bets are off. And of course I expect some people to step up right here and claim that people shouldn't use these platforms, while in reality they do and also don't care about statements that operating system xyz or desktop abc sucks. It's what they have and are used to. A temporary alternative could be a specialised Linux Live-CD, which would also offer an easy way to install the system, so that interested users (including professionals) can evaluate what our projects have in store for them. But this can't be done overnight and needs a lot of work, especially regarding the little details. Another critical remark directed towards our community is the reaction of some people when it comes to comparisons between Open Source software and Closed Source solutions. There seems to be a mindset that reflexively rejects any notion that companies like Adobe or Corel did anything right or had good ideas -- ever. Just mention a useful feature in a piece of Closed Source software that should be available in one of our projects and expect to be flamed, because these corporations can't get anything right (what are these corporate drones and their defrauded users compared to an omniscient developer who claims to know how people _should_ use their computers?) Add to the hypocrisy that many of our projects are only too happy to use standards like PostScript, PDF or XMP, originally developed by a corporation like Adobe, which, according to some, can't get anything right. OK, end of rant, exaggeration and sarcasm mode. snip Activism is uninteresting. It is time to mature beyond it. Activism, if understood as ideological crusade, will probably go nowhere, but if it means promoting our alternatives (including their idealistic virtues), it makes sense. You might want to set up some sort of a brainstorm session during LGM 2010 about this... I don't think that a formal conference session in more than half year is required to spin some thoughts and give some feedback. We're not in the corporate world, or are we? I am shocked at the apathy *here* on this mailing list. You must be new here (joke, joke). Alexandre Leray has proposed a beautiful website for LGM2010 [0]. It introduces some radical design changes. I can't believe that only four people have an opinion about it. Is the silent majority just approving? or is it shell-shocked? How should we know? OK, I'm guilty as anybody else here. My opinion: The new logo and the new font choice are fabulous and send a strong message (strong in contrast to the former playful design). I only wish the final website had more graphical elements and perhaps less text. Alessandro Rimoldi has come up with a sensible proposal [1] to discuss, think in more detail, and codify a common graphic aspect for our projects. This should IMO also trigger some
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 09:24, Kai-Uwe Behrmann k...@gmx.de wrote: A screenshot of the logo SVG with FF-v3.5.2 is attached. You don't have the right font installed, have a look into the PDF file. Regards, Tobias ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Hi, Yuval Levy wrote: What I find disturbing in the current cacophony is the term Libre Graphics. Libre Graphics is insider terminology. It rings a bell with you, but the best association it gets from the general public is with a Cuba Libre at the bar! Contrast the self-explaining Creative Suite. Creative Suite refers to the most important feature of that software: it is part of a suite and it is for creative use. The most important feature of the software is surely the freedom we give our users, no? Creative Suite sounds like something that Adobe or Corel would have already trademarked to me, even if it weren't already an Adobe thing - it screams multi-thousand dollar commercial software. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary dne...@free.fr Tel: +33 9 51 13 46 45 Cell: +33 6 77 01 92 13 ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Hallo, Christoph Schäfer wrote: Wow, that's a lot of stuff deal with :) and that's the kind of feedback / discussion that I have expected would ensue. THANK YOU. Keep *your* thoughts and opinions coming, rolling and steaming. I'll withhold mine for a while ;-) The key to a successful brain storming is to bring even the craziest idea on the table first, without criticizing, so that even the most unthinkable ideas come to the surface. Then summarize and discuss. At the beginning you may need some etching (and even offending) remarks - something that moves and shakes and raise feelings. It's like a motor that needs at least two if not four strokes. compress, spark, push, return, if I am not mistaken (excuse my English). there is enough mixture (stuff) in the air to compress (and fear not, there is more to come in the future). I hope we got the spark (I tend to be abrasive). Now we can generate the energy to push forward, and finish the cycle by returning around a good beer at LGM 2010. Repeat at convenient speed (it happens a few thousand times per minute in your car's combustion engine). Our projects are engines, keep them moving or they'll rust. Yuv ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
buondì, I would change a few details though - the most important of which being the logo. you want to show continuity from the previous years. Changing the font / writing is OK IMO, but I would keep the same splash of ink (in new color) as in the past years. i'd like make a more general proposition concerning the logo... in the last two years , i have used the logo several times in different contexts: my experience shows, that it was not easy to adapt it! since the LGM has born (it's already 4 years old now!), several projects have been started and i think we can say that we have something more than just a bunch of programs: we have a whole environment for graphic designers which is growing! i think that it would be nice to show it somehow through the appearance of our projects. today, there are several initiatives which are related to (or even issued from) the LGM and handle different aspects of the libre graphics environemnt (i hope i get them straight... and that i don't forget too many of them!): - create: a coordination platform for the development of the libre graphics software - libre graphics world: a news ticker and information source - the graphics sub-conference at RMLL.info - the libre graphics days next january in new zeland - code: free, a pdf magazine / art book for the open source scene - the (my) libre graphics booth at openexpo.ch and i know of at least 4 other projects which are not public or published, but will (or may) be realized in the next six month. it would be nice if it was perceptible that all those projects are related and work together! this could be done through a banner, a font, a color, ... one example: it is currently hard to notice that lgw.org and lgm.org are related! another example: last year we wanted to create a button for the pledge but it was hard (and it has not been achieved!) to create one which was clearly a LGM button! third example: every year we have longer discussion about how the lgm.org/20xx website should look like. i'm not against keeping the splash (or other graphical elements) nor i want see it disappear (this will certainly a main point about the look of LG, though). but i think the time has come, to create some detailed corporate identity rules for the libre graphics, which could then be used -- more or less strictly -- by each project which relates to LG. we are not a company! the goal is not get a strict, common appearance. the goals i want to reach are: - to simplify the design for new projects and - help the (existing) project to show that they relate to a broader movement. personally, i think that to get there we need: - a logo, with variations for different sizes and contexts, - a font for the libre graphics meeting text, - a color or a color type/set - a description of how those elements could be used. those are just some ideas: don't hesitate to propose other ones or tell me that i should drop some listed ones! now the big question: does anybody also feel that there is a need for it? and the other question: does anybody want to create a corporate identity proposal for LG*? has anybody an idea how we could find somebody who is willing to do it? i'm eager to read what the create community thinks of it! have a nice day a.l.e ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
Re: [CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
a.l.e wrote: since the LGM has born (it's already 4 years old now!), several projects have been started and i think we can say that we have something more than just a bunch of programs: we have a whole environment for graphic designers which is growing! growing is often associated with growing pains :) today, there are several initiatives which are related to (or even issued from) the LGM and handle different aspects of the libre graphics environemnt and they look to outsiders as if they are completely uncoordinated. too many websites; too many overlaps; no explanation how they fit in the whole. Of course to insiders everything is clear and obvious... it would be nice if it was perceptible that all those projects are related and work together! I second that. And it would be also nice if the purpose of those projects would be clearer, if there was some sort of common strategy document, accessible to everybody, discussed and advanced publicly. i'm not against keeping the splash (or other graphical elements) nor i want see it disappear (this will certainly a main point about the look of LG, though). but i think the time has come, to create some detailed corporate identity rules for the libre graphics, which could then be used -- more or less strictly -- by each project which relates to LG. +1. I am agnostic with respect to the splash. Speaking for myself I could imagine adopting it as a background to the Hugin logo if it would associate us with other software packages that I feel affinity to. personally, i think that to get there we need: - a logo, with variations for different sizes and contexts, Rather than a logo I would want to see a background as a unifying element (the color splash would have been one possibility, and there are surely others too). Maybe with different colors, matched to the individual logos; a common shading; common proportions of logo to background, etc. Somebody with better designer skills than me can surely come up with a visual proposal. To be somewhat serious the background should be trade-marked and protected so that only software that qualifies (e.g. that is FLOSS) can use it. And there would need to be some coordination in terms of colors, so that we can present a whole palette of tools. Look at the palette of colored squares with white two-character codes for each of the tools in Adobe's Creative Suite. - a font for the libre graphics meeting text, - a color or a color type/set Unified font and color palette would be the logical consequence. The color palette could have sub-palettes, one for each project, with e.g. 4 unifying colors and 4 projects specific colors. Each project would have its own 8 colors palette but they would still look matching/fitting. Probably the color for headlines and for plain text would be part of the common four colors, while the background color for inserts and sidebars could be one of the project-specific colors. At Hugin our website is hopelessly outdated. One community member showed a nice mockup, but nobody has taken it to the next level. Identity guidelines would surely help propel this kind of effort forward, and if there was a single template they would also save us (and probably the other individual projects too) time. i'm eager to read what the create community thinks of it! I would love to see some sort of unifying identity. Not necessarily a corporate identity (CI). I've been through a couple of CI exercises, it's top-bottom. Like the much more ambitious idea, which I cherish but I know is extremely unlikely to happen - of a common user interface. Incompatible with the bottom-up nature of open source. What I find disturbing in the current cacophony is the term Libre Graphics. Libre Graphics is insider terminology. It rings a bell with you, but the best association it gets from the general public is with a Cuba Libre at the bar! Contrast the self-explaining Creative Suite. Creative Suite refers to the most important feature of that software: it is part of a suite and it is for creative use. What is most important about our projects as a group? FLOSS? Important, sure, but not *most* important IMO. How do other people feel about this terminology thing? I currently do not have an alternative to Libre Graphics to suggest. Developing one would require some deep thinking and introspection and I'd like to have an indication whether such an effort would be welcome. If I abstract from Creative Suite being owned by Adobe, I could very well imagine to call the next Hugin Hugin CS 2009.4.0. I could not imagine calling it Hugin LG 2009.4.0 - not because of the association with other *L*ibre *G*raphics tools, but because of the term libre graphics itself. The version numbering is also something that could be used for unification. Hugin was stuck for too long with a 0.x version number, giving the impression that it is incomplete. The decision whether to
[CREATE] LGM 2010 Website
Dear Create members, OSP and myself are happy to finally present you our proposal for a logo and new website for LGM 2010. The logo is here: http://ospublish.constantvzw.org/documents/LGM2010/logo/ The site is visible at this temporary address: http://lgm.alexandreleray.com/ Our main design concern was about how to represent digital tools in their diversity, from Desktop Publishing to 3D modeling, from typography to batch processing etc., showing by this means the multiplicity of the projects gathered at the Libre Graphics Meeting. This is the role assigned to the background, a static SVG composition of some of the most significant digital tools from the libre projects. This background, present on all the pages, zooms and pans randomly on each page loading, thanks to a small javascript. This gives to the readers unexpected exploration of the territories of that map of creative tools. A javascript free version of this SVG file is visible for demo purpose at: http://lgm.alexandreleray.com/static/css/background-fixe.svg We for sure forgot a lot of tools (we are familiar with only a small part of them) so all suggestions are welcome! The logo is a play with the M of Meeting, shifting between 2D and 3D perception; between static and movement. 3 squares for a flag. A flag for a meeting. A flag for a place, and for a space. A typographic flag for an italic M. 3 squares for pixels. 15 degrees rotated squares for vectors. 3 squares of progressive sizes to evoque movement. 3 sizes overlapping for 3D optical effect. 3 windows floating. The typeface used, is OSP-DIN. As the background is very present, we decided to base mainly the website on text. It is set with Dave Crossland's open typeface Cantarell, available for download at Open Font Library. This humanist sans-serif font was designed for on screen reading therefore it is very legible even on small sizes. This choice was made to promote the Open Font Library, the GPL and Fontforge with which was made the font, but also the new @font-face CSS rules newly (re-)introduced in Firefox 3.5 (among other web browsers). Not to mention that Dave is a very active Create member and a professional type designer. We picked up the yellow color as a way to keep the foreground legible. The latter is made of two colors, a navy blue and a brown, to differentiate two levels of information. We also decided to mute the partners logos by converting them to a single color in order to keep the whole homogeneous. The 'donate' square would be live-updated as funds are added; there should be a subscription form, and probably other pages added etc. for this we will use the code a.l.e. developed for already for earlier LGM sites. We hope you'll like our proposal; even if it is quite a bit different than before ;-) We're looking forward to hear your response/suggestions/improvements (for example on the SVG coding, done by hand for weight purpose)! All the best, Alexandre + OSP ___ CREATE mailing list CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
