Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Dear Regine, I think this is a nice application of FRBRoo to a more museum-like context. The Work discussion is an old one. Both positions are justified. Therefore FRBRoo defines an "Individual Work" in contrast to a "Complex Work". In practice, i'd suggest instantiating the "Individual Work" can be ommitted, once it can be inferred, as we had proposed to Europeana. I'd argue, the distinction "they are sometimes considered as a new visual work, sometimes just as modification" is pointless, because there is a new artistic contribution. The expression is new. The Work gets another realization. The plate is physically modified. The feature on it, the scratches, are new. An Expression cannot be modified. The "invenit" can be associated with the work conception, but is an expression in its own right. The "FECIT" has its own artistic contribution, I'd argue it is a derivative. But there are better FRBR experts on this list! I think it will be good to create a guideline for this case. I believe it should be discussed together with the bronze casting work. All the best, Martin On 3/8/2015 11:23 πμ, Regine Stein wrote: Hi, Apparently my message didn't pass through on Friday (since it was too big, apparently due to the citations of E12 and F32 in Martin's email, I removed them now) so I try it again - best, Regine Weitergeleitete Nachricht Betreff:Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints? Datum: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:33:14 +0200 Von:Stein, Regine An: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr, frbr-...@ics.forth.gr Kopie (CC): Gudrun Knaus Dear Christian-Emil, dear Martin, Many thanks for your responses! Our interest is indeed to understand the whole process of artistic printing (firstly in early modern Europe), how the idea of a visual work evolved in the process, what are the relationships between the various (conceptual and physical) objects involved in the process. Making a printing plate always starts with a drawing which may either be a copy of an existing visual work, a painting, or may be intentionally designed for a print, either by the printmaker or by another artist. In German language we typically use in documentation the roles "Inventor" and "Stecher", according to the Latin "INVENIT" and "FECIT" which one can often find in inscriptions (see e.g. engravings by Marcantonio Raimondi with inscription "RAPHA URBI INVEN / MAF" - Raphael invented it / Marcantonio fecit = Marcantonio made it). Then, the same visual idea may be realized in several printing plates. Then, we have prints from different states of this same printing plate, and they are sometimes considered as a new visual work, sometimes just as modification. In order to limit the number of copies a printing plate may be scratched. If we are lucky the printing plate still exists somewhere but obviously in its last state, and earlier states are only known through the prints. Then prints may be compiled into series and so on. As we are dealing with multiples we wonder if FRBRoo is appropriate to approach this, our questions include: - Should we consider multiple realizations of the same drawing in various printing plates as multiple F2 Expression (F24 Publication Expression) of the same F1 Work (F14 Individual Work)? Or are they all different works? - Should we consider different states of one printing plate as F3 Manifestation Product Type? - How to reflect the different states of the printing plate as "used specific object" in E12 Production? - Analysis of what is typically recorded in the documentation in a museum holding one (or multiple) print(s): which information pertains to the Work / Expression (e.g. the subject / P62 depicts), which to the printing plate / F3 Manifestation Product Type (e.g. the state), which to the actual museum object / F4 Item? We are grateful for further comments on this, and will certainly be back to the group as we move on. Btw, the AAT of course differentiates "prints (visual works)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041273 - or more specifically "engravings (prints)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041340 "printing plates" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300022755 as well as the process of "engraving (printing process)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300053225 Best wishes Regine Am 30.07.2015 um 21:58 schrieb martin: Dear Regine, There has been an implicit discussion in the CRM about prints as production with particular tools. see: E12 Production [...] §Rembrandt’s creating of the seventh state of his etching “Woman sitting half dressed beside a stove”, 1658, identified by Bartsch Number 197 (E12,E65,E81) So, the print plate undergoes "transformations" and implies the creation of an information object being present on the plate(s) and the prints, or, in more creative techniques, the information content of the plate is "incorporated" in the prints. The print plate is "used specific object" in the printing process,
Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Hi, Apparently my message didn't pass through on Friday (since it was too big, apparently due to the citations of E12 and F32 in Martin's email, I removed them now) so I try it again - best, Regine Weitergeleitete Nachricht Betreff:Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints? Datum: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:33:14 +0200 Von:Stein, Regine An: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr, frbr-...@ics.forth.gr Kopie (CC): Gudrun Knaus Dear Christian-Emil, dear Martin, Many thanks for your responses! Our interest is indeed to understand the whole process of artistic printing (firstly in early modern Europe), how the idea of a visual work evolved in the process, what are the relationships between the various (conceptual and physical) objects involved in the process. Making a printing plate always starts with a drawing which may either be a copy of an existing visual work, a painting, or may be intentionally designed for a print, either by the printmaker or by another artist. In German language we typically use in documentation the roles "Inventor" and "Stecher", according to the Latin "INVENIT" and "FECIT" which one can often find in inscriptions (see e.g. engravings by Marcantonio Raimondi with inscription "RAPHA URBI INVEN / MAF" - Raphael invented it / Marcantonio fecit = Marcantonio made it). Then, the same visual idea may be realized in several printing plates. Then, we have prints from different states of this same printing plate, and they are sometimes considered as a new visual work, sometimes just as modification. In order to limit the number of copies a printing plate may be scratched. If we are lucky the printing plate still exists somewhere but obviously in its last state, and earlier states are only known through the prints. Then prints may be compiled into series and so on. As we are dealing with multiples we wonder if FRBRoo is appropriate to approach this, our questions include: - Should we consider multiple realizations of the same drawing in various printing plates as multiple F2 Expression (F24 Publication Expression) of the same F1 Work (F14 Individual Work)? Or are they all different works? - Should we consider different states of one printing plate as F3 Manifestation Product Type? - How to reflect the different states of the printing plate as "used specific object" in E12 Production? - Analysis of what is typically recorded in the documentation in a museum holding one (or multiple) print(s): which information pertains to the Work / Expression (e.g. the subject / P62 depicts), which to the printing plate / F3 Manifestation Product Type (e.g. the state), which to the actual museum object / F4 Item? We are grateful for further comments on this, and will certainly be back to the group as we move on. Btw, the AAT of course differentiates "prints (visual works)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041273 - or more specifically "engravings (prints)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041340 "printing plates" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300022755 as well as the process of "engraving (printing process)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300053225 Best wishes Regine Am 30.07.2015 um 21:58 schrieb martin: Dear Regine, There has been an implicit discussion in the CRM about prints as production with particular tools. see: E12 Production [...] §Rembrandt’s creating of the seventh state of his etching “Woman sitting half dressed beside a stove”, 1658, identified by Bartsch Number 197 (E12,E65,E81) So, the print plate undergoes "transformations" and implies the creation of an information object being present on the plate(s) and the prints, or, in more creative techniques, the information content of the plate is "incorporated" in the prints. The print plate is "used specific object" in the printing process, but a specialization of E12 may be adequate to fix the specific kind of use and its consequences of information transfer to the copies. We are also discussing a generalization of F32 Carrier Production Event [...] into industrial production, of cars, tools, coins and whatever. Artistic prints with limited copies etc may not be regarded as producing "things of type XXX". A CRM extension into the world of artitstic printing may be interesting. If its only about using AAT vocabulary, Christian-Emil's remark's should be sufficient. I do not know if the AAT differentiates the plate as museum object from the copy. All the best, Martin On 30/7/2015 9:48 μμ, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote: Hi Regine If I understand AAT correctly, it is a thesaurus and is as such a hierarchy of concepts and can be seen as a incarnation of a hierarchy under the E55 Type. In a CRM/FRBRoo context a print is a physical object (one of the items of a series), for instance a lithography, a paper carrying an image or more. A lithography would usually be given the AAT type 'print' (or belong to this type/be a member of the set of objects
Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Hi, Apparently my message didn't pass through on Friday (since it was too big, strange enough) so I try it again - best, Regine Weitergeleitete Nachricht Betreff:Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints? Datum: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:33:14 +0200 Von:Stein, Regine An: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr, frbr-...@ics.forth.gr Kopie (CC): Gudrun Knaus Dear Christian-Emil, dear Martin, Many thanks for your responses! Our interest is indeed to understand the whole process of artistic printing (firstly in early modern Europe), how the idea of a visual work evolved in the process, what are the relationships between the various (conceptual and physical) objects involved in the process. Making a printing plate always starts with a drawing which may either be a copy of an existing visual work, a painting, or may be intentionally designed for a print, either by the printmaker or by another artist. In German language we typically use in documentation the roles "Inventor" and "Stecher", according to the Latin "INVENIT" and "FECIT" which one can often find in inscriptions (see e.g. engravings by Marcantonio Raimondi with inscription "RAPHA URBI INVEN / MAF" - Raphael invented it / Marcantonio fecit = Marcantonio made it). Then, the same visual idea may be realized in several printing plates. Then, we have prints from different states of this same printing plate, and they are sometimes considered as a new visual work, sometimes just as modification. In order to limit the number of copies a printing plate may be scratched. If we are lucky the printing plate still exists somewhere but obviously in its last state, and earlier states are only known through the prints. Then prints may be compiled into series and so on. As we are dealing with multiples we wonder if FRBRoo is appropriate to approach this, our questions include: - Should we consider multiple realizations of the same drawing in various printing plates as multiple F2 Expression (F24 Publication Expression) of the same F1 Work (F14 Individual Work)? Or are they all different works? - Should we consider different states of one printing plate as F3 Manifestation Product Type? - How to reflect the different states of the printing plate as "used specific object" in E12 Production? - Analysis of what is typically recorded in the documentation in a museum holding one (or multiple) print(s): which information pertains to the Work / Expression (e.g. the subject / P62 depicts), which to the printing plate / F3 Manifestation Product Type (e.g. the state), which to the actual museum object / F4 Item? We are grateful for further comments on this, and will certainly be back to the group as we move on. Btw, the AAT of course differentiates "prints (visual works)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041273 - or more specifically "engravings (prints)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041340 "printing plates" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300022755 as well as the process of "engraving (printing process)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300053225 Best wishes Regine Am 30.07.2015 um 21:58 schrieb martin: Dear Regine, There has been an implicit discussion in the CRM about prints as production with particular tools. see: E12 Production [...] Examples: [...] §Rembrandt’s creating of the seventh state of his etching “Woman sitting half dressed beside a stove”, 1658, identified by Bartsch Number 197 (E12,E65,E81) So, the print plate undergoes "transformations" and implies the creation of an information object being present on the plate(s) and the prints, or, in more creative techniques, the information content of the plate is "incorporated" in the prints. The print plate is "used specific object" in the printing process, but a specialization of E12 may be adequate to fix the specific kind of use and its consequences of information transfer to the copies. We are also discussing a generalization of F32 Carrier Production Event Subclass of:E12 <#_E12_Production_>Production Scope note:This class comprises activities that result in instances of F54 Utilized Information Carrier coming into existence. Both the production of a series of physical objects (printed books, scores, CDs, DVDs, CD-ROMS, etc.) and the creation of a new copy of a file on an electronic carrier are regarded as instances of F32 Carrier Production Event. Typically, the production of copies of a publication (no matter whether it is a book, a sound recording, a DVD, a cartographic resource, etc.) strives to produce items all as similar as possible to a prototype that displays all the features that all the copies of the publication should also display, which is reflected in property /R27 used as source material/ F24 Publication Expression. into industrial production, of cars, tools, coins and whatever. Artistic prints with limited copies etc may not be regarded as producing "things of type XXX". A CRM extension
