Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue, missing part of type

2023-10-20 Thread Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig 

Dear all, Martin,

Looking for things without certain types of features is indeed very 
useful. NTP46 and NTP56 are meant to do exactly that (if you have the 
time check 
https://www.semantic-web-journal.net/content/typed-properties-and-negative-typed-properties-dealing-type-observations-and-negative-1 
and also here: https://github.com/linked-conservation-data/crmntp )


I agree with Athina, if I understand Martin's point correctly, the 
proposed property "misses part of type" brings the added semantics of 
the part being there originally on purpose. I do not think it is 
necessary to introduce such a property for two reasons:


1) In terms of retrieval, being able to juxtapose

E18 Physical Thing → P46 is composed of → E18 Physical Thing
E18 Physical Thing → TP46 is composed of physical thing of type → E55 Type
E18 Physical Thing → NTP46 is not composed of physical thing of type → 
E55 Type


is enough for typical research scenarios. Also my understanding is that 
from P46 or P56 we cannot deduct any intentionality during production. 
It is just a statement about parts.


2) One can point to technique types or design and procedures to express 
the original elements of the object if necessary.


The choice of the type of things that are marked as non-existing depends 
on the expertise of the observer, the mini closed world that they 
decided to set, any existing types that are known etc. It is a question 
of types, not of properties, right?


For damage, I often use S18 Alteration from CRMsci to express things 
being changed without an agent. Isn't that appropriate?


All the best,

Thanasis

On 20/10/2023 15:20, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote:

Dear All,

Indeed, I see two characteristic cases:

A) broken surfaces:

This is characteristic for statues, which miss heads or limbs, but also 
for architectural elements. The Roman statues without heads have 
characteristic places where to place the head. There is the reasoning 
that people hardly produced a statue with a broken-off arm in antiquity. 
These parts have not been discrete before being broken of. In other 
cases, there may be traces of mortar or other cement to the connected 
component, or damaged joining features, such as corrupted screw holes etc.


B) If an object is found in a context of /use/, rather than in a 
/factory/, we can assume that it contained all essential components.


I agree with Oeyvind that a part removal is not adequate for a 
deterioration happening when some objects down etc. Therefore I raised 
the issue, because there is no obvious workaround in CRM currently.


The property should be used when there is enough plausibility that the 
object was complete. I do not assume someone went to a battle field with 
a chariot without wheels. Even if, the cases are so marginal they are 
irrelevant for the purpose of the CRM.



See also our paper, in which we analyzed a lot of situations:

DOI:10.1007/3-540-45581-7_31 

Corpus ID: 46464138
A Metamodel for Part - Whole Relationships for Reasoning on Missing 
Parts and Reconstruction
M. Doerr , D. 
Plexousakis 
, C. 
Bekiari 
Published in International Conference on Conceptual Modeling 
 ER 2001: Conceptual 
Modeling — ER 2001 
 pp 412–425


Best,

Martin


On 10/17/2023 10:33 AM, athinak wrote:

Dear Martin,

maybe I misunderstood, but how can we explicitly know thw 
circumstances of leading to this state, described by the property? 
what I mean is, that this property seems to me related to the 
definition of situations and to inference (how can we assert the 
validity of missing parts? and what about the FOL? can it support it?
It seems useful but isn't it a kind of inference? just a question or 
maybe I am missing something


Athina

On 2023-10-16 22:12, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote:

Dear All,

In the discussion about typed negative properties, I have the
impression that a property:
"misses part of type" may be utterly useful for finding archaeological
object in a global search,
such as the head or arms of a statue, characteristic elements of
buildings etc.
Admittedly, it poses the question where to stop the non-existence, and
what missing parts would have a chance to be found.
Would a part lost by accident be a part removal? Would that be an
alternative way of documenting missing parts?

Opinions?

Best,

Martin

--

 Dr. Martin Doerr

 Honorary Head of the

 Center for Cultural Informatics

 Information Systems Laboratory
 Institute of Computer Science
 Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)

 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece

 Vox:+30(2810)391625
 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr
 

[Crm-sig] New Issue, missing part of type

2023-10-20 Thread Martin Doerr via Crm-sig 

Dear All,

Indeed, I see two characteristic cases:

A) broken surfaces:

This is characteristic for statues, which miss heads or limbs, but also 
for architectural elements. The Roman statues without heads have 
characteristic places where to place the head. There is the reasoning 
that people hardly produced a statue with a broken-off arm in antiquity. 
These parts have not been discrete before being broken of. In other 
cases, there may be traces of mortar or other cement to the connected 
component, or damaged joining features, such as corrupted screw holes etc.


B) If an object is found in a context of /use/, rather than in a 
/factory/, we can assume that it contained all essential components.


I agree with Oeyvind that a part removal is not adequate for a 
deterioration happening when some objects down etc. Therefore I raised 
the issue, because there is no obvious workaround in CRM currently.


The property should be used when there is enough plausibility that the 
object was complete. I do not assume someone went to a battle field with 
a chariot without wheels. Even if, the cases are so marginal they are 
irrelevant for the purpose of the CRM.



See also our paper, in which we analyzed a lot of situations:

DOI:10.1007/3-540-45581-7_31 

Corpus ID: 46464138
A Metamodel for Part - Whole Relationships for Reasoning on Missing 
Parts and Reconstruction
M. Doerr , D. 
Plexousakis 
, C. 
Bekiari 
Published in International Conference on Conceptual Modeling 
 ER 2001: Conceptual 
Modeling — ER 2001 
 pp 412–425


Best,

Martin


On 10/17/2023 10:33 AM, athinak wrote:

Dear Martin,

maybe I misunderstood, but how can we explicitly know thw 
circumstances of leading to this state, described by the property? 
what I mean is, that this property seems to me related to the 
definition of situations and to inference (how can we assert the 
validity of missing parts? and what about the FOL? can it support it?
It seems useful but isn't it a kind of inference? just a question or 
maybe I am missing something


Athina

On 2023-10-16 22:12, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote:

Dear All,

In the discussion about typed negative properties, I have the
impression that a property:
"misses part of type" may be utterly useful for finding archaeological
object in a global search,
such as the head or arms of a statue, characteristic elements of
buildings etc.
Admittedly, it poses the question where to stop the non-existence, and
what missing parts would have a chance to be found.
Would a part lost by accident be a part removal? Would that be an
alternative way of documenting missing parts?

Opinions?

Best,

Martin

--

 Dr. Martin Doerr

 Honorary Head of the

 Center for Cultural Informatics

 Information Systems Laboratory
 Institute of Computer Science
 Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)

 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece

 Vox:+30(2810)391625
 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr
 Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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--

 Dr. Martin Doerr
  
 Honorary Head of the

 Center for Cultural Informatics
 
 Information Systems Laboratory

 Institute of Computer Science
 Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
  
 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,

 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
 
 Vox:+30(2810)391625
 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr   
 Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl



--

 Dr. Martin Doerr
  
 Honorary Head of the

 Center for Cultural Informatics
 
 Information Systems Laboratory

 Institute of Computer Science
 Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
  
 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,

 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
 
 Vox:+30(2810)391625
 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr   
 Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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Crm-sig mailing list
Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
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