Re: [Crm-sig] NEW ISSUE: Modelling provenance of Intangible Heritage

[Massoomeh Niknia via Crm-sig]

Dear Martin, Rob, Pierre and All,



Thank you so much for sharing your opinions and solutions. They are so
helpful.

I am trying to implement another solution and it takes time to implement it
completely on my database.

I'll write you the results soon.



Thank you again for your consideration.


Kind regards,

Massoomeh




On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 at 02:29, Pierre Choffé  wrote:

> Dear Martin, dear all,
>
> We considered this interesting question of context and origin in the frame
> of the Doremus project. For example, we describe the creation of Henry
> Purcell's Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary, Z. 860 as an Expression
> Creation that occurred in the *historical context *of the death of Queen
> Mary II. The Expression itself has a historical context of Queen Mary
> funeral and a religious context of Anglicism.
>
>
> F22 Self-Contained
>
> Expression
>
> R17i was created by
>
> F28 Expression
>
> Creation
>
> F28 Expression
>
> Creation
>
> U56 occurred in historical context
>
> M40 Context
>
> “Décès de la Reine Mary II d’Angleterre”
>
> F22 Self-Contained
>
> Expression
>
> U63 has religious context
>
> M40 Context
>
> { Anglicanisme }
>
> F22 Self-Contained
>
> Expression
>
> U66 has historical context
>
> M40 Context
>
> “Funérailles de la Reine Mary”
>
>
> To describe a concert of Pygmy music at the Philharmonie de Paris :
>
>
> M42 Performed Expression Creation
>
> P7 took place at
>
> E53 Place
>
> { Philharmonie de Paris }
>
> M42 Performed Expression Creation
>
> R17 created
>
> M43 Performed Expression
>
> M43 Performed Expression
>
> U64 has cultural context
>
> M40 Context
>
> { Pygmées }
>
>
> Or a raga concert at Radio France :
>
>
> F22 Self-contained expression
>
> U65 has geographical context
>
> M40 Context
>
>  { Inde  }
>
> F22 Self-contained expression
>
> U54i has performed expression
>
> M43 Performed Expression
>
> M43 Performed Expression
>
> R17i was created by
>
> M42 Performed Expression Creation
>
> M42 Performed Expression Creation
>
> P7 took place at
>
> E53 Place
>
> { Radio France }
>
>
> M40 Context  is a subclass
> of E55 Type
>
> U64 has cultural context
>  is a
> subproperty of *P2 has type*
>
> and you can check the other context properties in
> DOREMUS Ontology 
> 
> DATA.DOREMUS.ORG 
> 
> 
>
> I hope this can help,
> All the very best,
> Pierre Choffé
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 25th, 2021 at 11:50 PM, "Pierre Choffé" <
> choffepie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Martin, dear all,
>>
>> We considered this interesting question of context and origin in the
>> frame of the Doremus project. For example, we describe the creation of
>> Henry Purcell's Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary, Z. 860 as an
>> Expression Creation that occurred in the *historical context *of the
>> death of Queen Mary II. The Expression itself has a historical context of 
>> Queen
>> Mary funeral and a religious context of Anglicism.
>>
>>
>> F22 Self-Contained
>>
>> Expression
>>
>> R17i was created by
>>
>> F28 Expression
>>
>> Creation
>>
>> F28 Expression
>>
>> Creation
>>
>> U56 occurred in historical context
>>
>> M40 Context
>>
>> “Décès de la Reine Mary II d’Angleterre”
>>
>> F22 Self-Contained
>>
>> Expression
>>
>> U63 has religious context
>>
>> M40 Context
>>
>> { Anglicanisme }
>>
>> F22 Self-Contained
>>
>> Expression
>>
>> U66 has historical context
>>
>> M40 Context
>>
>> “Funérailles de la Reine Mary”
>>
>>
>> To describe a concert of Pygmy music at the Philharmonie de Paris :
>>
>>
>> M42 Performed Expression Creation
>>
>> P7 took place at
>>
>> E53 Place
>>
>> { Philharmonie de Paris }
>>
>> M42 Performed Expression Creation
>>
>> R17 created
>>
>> M43 Performed Expression
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 25th, 2021 at 7:44 PM, Robert Sanderson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Very interesting!
>>
>> From the wikipedia article, the Radif is:
>> a collection of old melodies that have been handed down by the
>> masters to the students through the generations
>>
>> Which is very interesting if taken literally as it requires *two* classes
>> we don't have -- a collection class for non-physical things [dare I say in
>> this context that yes I am banging that drum?] and a class for a Melody to
>> parallel Visual and Linguistic sub-classes of Information Object.  Once
>> there is a set of melodies, this can be the specific object of the
>> activities where the tradition is passed on.
>>
>> I wonder about the use of Type without further properties or activities,
>> as it's currently impossible to relate a concept to other classes.  An
>> example which came up here recently is the precoordinated headings with
>> temporal, personal and geographic facets ... for example "History (E55
>> 

Re: [Crm-sig] CRM translation working group

[Massoomeh Niknia via Crm-sig]

Hi,

Please count on me as well for the Persian version.

Kind regards,
Massoomeh 

> On 9. Mar 2021, at 10:30, Дарья Юрьевна Гук via Crm-sig 
>  wrote:
> 
>  Count me in as well for Russian version.
> 
> 
> With kind regards,
> Daria Hookk
> 
> Senior Researcher of
> the dept. of archaeology of
> Eastern Europe and Siberia of 
> the State Hermitage Museum,
> PhD, ICOMOS member
> 
> E-mail: ho...@hermitage.ru
> Skype: daria.hookk
> https://hermitage.academia.edu/HookkDaria___
> Crm-sig mailing list
> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
___
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Re: [Crm-sig] Propose New Issue: Guidelines and Protocols for Translating CIDOC CRM

[Massoomeh Niknia via Crm-sig]

Dear All,



Thank you George for proposing this issue. I totally agree with this
proposal. Due to our experience with translating the Model into Persian,
Omid Hodjati and I answered to your questions. Please follow this link
 to see the slides of our
answers.



I am looking forward to the discussion tonight!

Kind regards,
Massoomeh

On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 10:23, George Bruseker 
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Thanks already for your valuable feedback and uptake on this proposal. I
> am pleased to say that this issue has been added to the official CRM SIG
> issue list:
>
>
> http://www.cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-528-guidelines-and-protocols-for-translating-cidoc-crm
>
> It is also scheduled to be discussed in the afternoon session of the
> upcoming SIG on Monday March 8th. I do hope everyone responding here and
> all others interested in this topic will be available to share their
> knowledge and help us move this subject forward.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> George
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 8:50 AM Franco Niccolucci <
> franco.niccolu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> the appearance of this issue is the sign of the vitality, importance and
>> diffusion of the CRM.
>>
>> Undertaking a transation poses a number of issues that need to be
>> addressed before moving to practicalities.
>>
>> The “Canadian case” shows the need of complying with legal constraints.
>> For example, if a country formally decides that the national standard for
>> cultural heritage documentation is the CRM, the related decree will need to
>> have an appendix with the CRM version approved, and I think that it would
>> not be acceptable to include it in English, but it should be in that
>> country’s national official language(s). Thus it is better to have an
>> ‘approved' translation in advance, to guarantee that the ‘official’ text is
>> a faithful one. This may also resolve contractual issues, for example with
>> companies contracted to prepare heritage documentation compliant with CRM.
>>
>> On the other hand, using different translated versions of the CRM may -
>> at least in principle - undermine its universality. Even if machine
>> actionability would eventually be preserved, attention must be paid to the
>> human side of the job, to guarantee that scope notes - for example - give
>> the same meaning to labels acroos translations.
>>
>> What should be translated? Of course, the discursive part, as the
>> introduction - the pages numbered with Roman numerals in the CRM
>> description. But, they contain examples and references to Classes and
>> Properties, for which the specific rules should apply. For example, the
>> statement on page xi "In CIDOC CRM such statements of responsibility are
>> expressed though knowledge creation events such as E13 Attribute
>> Assignment and its relevant subclasses.” includes such a reference that
>> must follow the translation rules for Class names.
>> Another example is the “IsA” relationship. If translated, it contains the
>> indeterminate article “A” which in some languages must follow the
>> grammatical gender of the term it refers to, and thus gets two/three
>> equivalents. So my choice would be to consider it as a symbol and keep it
>> in English also in the translations. There may be other issues of this
>> kind, so a general directive should be 1) established 2) accepted according
>> to local constraints. I believe that the decision could be easy in this
>> particular case; but it must be decided for all the similar occurrences.
>>
>> The above leads me to think that before undertaking any translation, the
>> official English version should be examined to evaluate what is English -
>> and may be translated - and what is symbolic and just seems English - not
>> to be translated. IsA is an example, there may be others. The translation
>> may be funny from a literary point of view (“Martin Doerr IsA un homme”),
>> so an explanation could be given - maybe in a footnote - to help
>> understandability.
>>
>> Naming conventions (pages xiv - xv) should of course be preserved. Here
>> examples are given in Italic e.g. "*E53 Place. P122 borders with: E53
>> Plac*e”. I am not completely clear with the need of a full stop after
>> Place (could be a typo from copy-paste), but also the use of Italic is
>> introduced surreptitiously. By the way, it is maybe high time to establish
>> a recommendation to standardize how to quote class and property names e.g.
>> in articles, in order to distinguish them from plain discourse also
>> typographically.
>>
>> Coming to scope notes, I think that only the symbolic parts should remain
>> in English, i.e. the alphanumeric label e.g. “E1”.
>>
>> The above are just examples of what a preventive survey of the official
>> English text will define as “not translatable”. In my opinion it wouldn’t
>> take much time to fo it.
>>
>> The next step is what George calls “translation rules”. I am looking
>> forward to fierce debates about the