Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 635 (property quantifier mismatches) and P191
Dear Martin, Just trying to understand: Time-Span P191 had duration E54 Dimension: was "one to one (1,1:1,1)", which is contradictory, and both are wrong in this issue it was tentatively (1,1:0,n): (1,1:_,_): Martin: I think the phenomenal time-span has exactly one duration, which can be given with inner/outer bounds. The declarative one has exact durations. (_,_:0,_): Not all dimensions are durations of a time-span. (_,_:_,1): Does a duration always belong to a single time-span? It seems that although P191 had duration is not a subproperty of P43 has dimension because of their incompatible domains (E52 Time-Span versus E70 Thing), the logic should be the same, i.e. a dimension belongs to only one thing, and in particular, a duration belongs to only one time-span. (However, see P179 had sales price.) (_,_:_,n): Martin: In the case of declarative time-spans, we do not have the identity of the infinitely complex real thing. So, multiple time-spans could have the same duration. Isn't it? Now you suggest (_,_:_,1): Is that a return to my argument, or just coincidence? Thing P43 has dimension E54 Dimension: was (0,n:1,1), this issue did not touch it now you suggest (_,_:0,n): (_,_:0,_): What would be an example of a dimension that is not associated to anything? (_,_:_,n): The resolution "559 [52nd sig-decisions].docx" still says that O12 has (0,n:1,1), which would be compatible with P43. Is that outdated? Best, Wolfgang > Am 13.09.2023 um 21:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig > : > > Dear All, > > Regarding as last item of issue 635 the property P191 had duration: > > Issue 559 was resolved as: > > "In case the instance of S15 Observable Entity is more specifically an > instance of E18 Physical Thing, using the property O12 has dimension (is > dimension of) is equivalent to using the property P43 has dimension (is > dimension of). In other words, using the one implies the other." > > Sadly, P43 has quantification "one to many, dependent (0,n:1,1)", but we use > O12 now for relative dimensions between multiple things in CRMsci, AND we > use Dimension in P191 had duration (was duration of) from a Timespan, which > is not an instance of E70 Thing, with quantification "one to one (1,1:1,1) ". > Note that P191 is NOT a subproperty of P43, but E54 Dimension pertains to > both. > > It appears to me that P43 should have quantification "many to many (0,n:0,n)" > , > and P191 should have quantification "one to one (1,1:0,1)" , > > but this leaves P43 without the important semantics of dependency. > > Taking relative dimensions into account, it should be clarified that an > instance of E54 Dimension is dependent on the combination of references to it. > This is a task for an FOL or so, isn't it? > > Otherwise, we would need to specialize E54 in CRMbase, not really nice. > > > Opinions? > > > Best, > > Martin > > Forwarded Message Subject: Issue 635 (property quantifier > mismatches) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2023 00:00:00 +0300 From: Eleni Tsouloucha > To: Wolfgang Schmidle > , Martin Doerr CC: > Chryssoula Bekiari > > Dear both, > > The correct property quantification for P191 had duration has not been > determined yet. Have you resolved this? If yes, should we call an evote or > would you rather we discussed it at the SIG? > Best, > -- > Eleni Tsouloucha > Philologist - MA Linguistics & Language Technologies > Center for Cultural Informatics > Information Systems Laboratory - Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > Address: N. Plastira 100, GR-70013 Heraklion, Grece > email: tsoulo...@isc.forth.gr, eleni.crm@gmail.com > Tel: +30 2810391488 > > -- > > Dr. Martin Doerr > > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Thanks Martin for your explanations! Would it make sense to say that two Space Primitives define the same Place if and only if one is considered an alternative form of the other? (∃x) [E53(x) ∧ P168(x,y) ∧ P168(x,z)] ⇔ E94(y) ∧ E94(z) ∧ ( y=z ∨ P139(y,z) ∨ P139(z,y) ) Best, Wolfgang > Am 04.10.2023 um 21:07 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig > : > > Dear Wolfgang, > > We define shortcuts only for the very frequent cases. I proposed a shortcut > for approximating a place by a space primitive, because there are millions of > such data. We do not propose shortcuts when we regard the documenation of the > intermediate to be important for data integration, such as birth events, in > contrast to "birth date" etc. > > The Space Primitive and all other primitives has an identity as a limited set > of internationally used symbols by electronic data devices. The same > geometric area can be described by many different space primitives. > Therefore, it is cannot be Isa place, isn't it? We need the distinctions if > notation and conversions become relevant. Different electronic devices > support different value ranges. At some place, we need to be pragmatic. If > we define an interface from an ontology of being in the real world, obeying > to FOL, to typical database constructs, we necessarily encounter some special > hybrids. For instance, 1/3 is a number, but does not exits in any primitive > value😁. "are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC > CRM aims to define and analyse" does not mean we do not use them. Making E94 > being a subclass of Appellation is a minimal statement about their role. > > Best, > > Martin > > > On 10/3/2023 9:41 AM, Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: >> Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course >> there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions >> about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. >> >> So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space >> Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period is >> a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime >> Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and >> its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the >> CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of >> Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. >> >> >> > > -- > > Dr. Martin Doerr > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Issue: Completing the list of shortcuts in CRMbase
Dear All, P81 "ongoing throughout" and P82 "at some time within" are strong shortcuts, but not yet marked as such: E52 Time-Span P81 ongoing throughout E61 Time Primitive E52 Time-Span P86i contains E52 (Declarative) Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive P81(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E52(z) ∧ P86i(x,z) ∧ P170i(z,y)] E52 Time-Span P82 at some time within E61 Time Primitive E52 Time-Span P86 falls within E52 (Declarative) Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive P82(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E52(z) ∧ P86(x,z) ∧ P170i(z,y)] Christian-Emil suggested opening an issue for completing the list of shortcuts in CRMbase, and to create a separate issue for the extensions whenever necessary. Best, Wolfgang ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. > Am 01.10.2023 um 14:09 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig > : > > Some additional questions: > > P189 and P171: > E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive > is a strong shortcut of > E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space > Primitive > > Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either both in > CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? > > Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? > > Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e. > E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i > spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is > defined by E61 Time Primitive > > P189 and Q11: > Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? For > example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates itself), > which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not the same > (Declarative Place approximates Place). > > P189 and P7: > E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place > is an inverse shortcut of > E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place > P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)] > (leaving out the "same reference system" requirements) > > Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add the "will to > approximate" to the long version? i.e. > P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)] > > This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439 (Approximate > Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that P189 shouldn't be used when > one can establish "falls within". But it seems to me that > P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by" > would work very well together. > > Best, > Wolfgang > > >> Am 26.09.2023 um 11:25 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig >> : >> >> I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut would >> be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs and >> Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for >> >> E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime >> Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive >> >> E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time >> is defined by E61 Time Primitive >> >> Best, >> Wolfgang >> >> >>> Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig >>> : >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 >>> Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, >>> for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Martin >>> -- >>> >>> Dr. Martin Doerr >>> >>> Honorary Head of the >>> Center for Cultural Informatics >>> >>> Information Systems Laboratory >>> Institute of Computer Science >>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) >>> >>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, >>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece >>> >>> Vox:+30(2810)391625 >>> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr >>> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >>> ___ >>> Crm-sig mailing list >>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> >> >> ___ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Some additional questions: P189 and P171: E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive is a strong shortcut of E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space Primitive Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e. E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive P189 and Q11: Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? For example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates itself), which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not the same (Declarative Place approximates Place). P189 and P7: E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place is an inverse shortcut of E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)] (leaving out the "same reference system" requirements) Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add the "will to approximate" to the long version? i.e. P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)] This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439 (Approximate Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that P189 shouldn't be used when one can establish "falls within". But it seems to me that P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by" would work very well together. Best, Wolfgang > Am 26.09.2023 um 11:25 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig > : > > I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut would > be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs and > Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for > > E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume > P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > > E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time > is defined by E61 Time Primitive > > Best, > Wolfgang > > >> Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig >> : >> >> Dear All, >> >> I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 >> Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, >> for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. >> >> Best, >> >> Martin >> -- >> >> Dr. Martin Doerr >> >> Honorary Head of the >> Center for Cultural Informatics >> >> Information Systems Laboratory >> Institute of Computer Science >> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) >> >> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, >> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece >> >> Vox:+30(2810)391625 >> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr >> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >> ___ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut would be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs and Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive Best, Wolfgang > Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig > : > > Dear All, > > I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 > Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, > for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. > > Best, > > Martin > -- > > Dr. Martin Doerr > > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
