Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
Dear Dominic,
If you regard this as a new issue, or new evidence of an old one, please
mark your message by "ISSUE", and it will be on the agenda. Every
crm-sig member has the right to raise an issue.
BTW, I agree that a "Page" is not a self-contained expression, but a
fragment. In general, it does not intend to stop at meaningful
propositional boundaries. It might be, that a self-contained expression
is made to fit on one page. The levels of consideration are tricky: The
scanned image as an expression in its own right (or better just
Information Object?) incorporates but is not logically the same as the
incorporated expression.
best,
martin
On 10/3/2017 5:24 μμ, Dominic Oldman wrote:
Hi Florian,
Here is an off line discussion that we should have put on the list.
Cheers,
D
orcid.org/-0002-5539-3126 <http://orcid.org/-0002-5539-3126>
On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore
mailto:c.e.s@iln.uio.no>> wrote:
Do so, and send my regards. Please incorproate the following example:
To create excerpts is common activity in lexicography and history.
An excerpt is indeed a fragement of a text. The corresponding
expression is a fragment expression. See for example a paperslip
for the word 'shovelfork' (used to prepare la (small) field
instead of ploughing. The text is a fragment of a longer text
dealing with somebody childhood memories
http://www.edd.uio.no/setelarkiv/setel1963769.jpg
<http://www.edd.uio.no/setelarkiv/setel1963769.jpg>
The entire paper slip represents a self-contained expression where
a expression fragment is incorporated (in the corresponding work)
Best
Christian-Emil
*From:* Dominic Oldman mailto:do...@oldman.me.uk>>
*Sent:* 10 March 2017 13:32
*To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore
*Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
Hi Christian,
I note that this didnt go on the list - Can I post this to the
list as I think it is important generally.
D
orcid.org/-0002-5539-3126 <http://orcid.org/-0002-5539-3126>
On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Dominic Oldman
mailto:do...@oldman.me.uk>> wrote:
Although I think then the scope note could be much clearer on
E23 because it tends to suggest fragments isolated from the
whole whereas in this case the section still resides within a
whole. Although the scope note does state "excerpts" I still
think this could be stated far more clearly with less
ambiguity - if it does mean that these excerpts can be
identified sections of the information object within a whole
text.
Can we put this on the agenda for the next meeting?
D
orcid.org/-0002-5539-3126
<http://orcid.org/-0002-5539-3126>
On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore
mailto:c.e.s@iln.uio.no>> wrote:
It is not necessarily so that the text printed on a page
is a self-contained expression, it is in general a F23
Expression Fragment
Best
Christian-Emil
F22 Self-Contained Expression
This class comprises the immaterial realisations of
individual works at a particular time that are regarded as
a complete whole. The quality of wholeness reflects the
intention of its creator that this expression should
convey the concept of the work. Such a whole can in turn
be part of a larger whole.
Inherent to the notion of work is the completion of
recognisable outcomes of the work. These outcomes, i.e.
the Self-Contained Expressions, are regarded as the
symbolic equivalents of Individual Works, which form the
atoms of a complex work. A Self-Contained Expression may
contain expressions or parts of expressions from other
work, such as citations or items collected in anthologies.
Even though they are incorporated in the Self-Contained
Expression, they are not regarded as becoming members of
the expressed container work by their inclusion in the
expression, but are rather regarded as foreign or referred
to elements.
F22 Self-Contained Expression can be distinguished from
F23 Expression Fragment in that an F23 Expression Fragment
was not intended by its creator to make sense by itself.
Normally creators would characterise an outcome of a work
as finished. In other cases, one could recognise an
outcome of a work as complete from the elaboration or
logical coherence of its
Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
Hi Florian, Here is an off line discussion that we should have put on the list. Cheers, D orcid.org/-0002-5539-3126 On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore < c.e.s@iln.uio.no> wrote: > Do so, and send my regards. Please incorproate the following example: > > > To create excerpts is common activity in lexicography and history. An > excerpt is indeed a fragement of a text. The corresponding expression is a > fragment expression. See for example a paperslip for the word 'shovelfork' > (used to prepare la (small) field instead of ploughing. The text is a > fragment of a longer text dealing with somebody childhood memories > > > http://www.edd.uio.no/setelarkiv/setel1963769.jpg > > > The entire paper slip represents a self-contained expression where a > expression fragment is incorporated (in the corresponding work) > > > Best > > Christian-Emil > -- > *From:* Dominic Oldman > *Sent:* 10 March 2017 13:32 > > *To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore > *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 > > Hi Christian, > > I note that this didnt go on the list - Can I post this to the list as I > think it is important generally. > > D > > orcid.org/-0002-5539-3126 > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Dominic Oldman > wrote: > >> Although I think then the scope note could be much clearer on E23 because >> it tends to suggest fragments isolated from the whole whereas in this case >> the section still resides within a whole. Although the scope note does >> state "excerpts" I still think this could be stated far more clearly with >> less ambiguity - if it does mean that these excerpts can be identified >> sections of the information object within a whole text. >> >> Can we put this on the agenda for the next meeting? >> >> D >> >> >> orcid.org/-0002-5539-3126 >> >> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore < >> c.e.s@iln.uio.no> wrote: >> >>> It is not necessarily so that the text printed on a page is a >>> self-contained expression, it is in general a F23 Expression Fragment >>> >>> >>> Best >>> >>> Christian-Emil >>> >>> >>> F22 Self-Contained Expression >>> >>> This class comprises the immaterial realisations of individual works at >>> a particular time that are regarded as a complete whole. The quality of >>> wholeness reflects the intention of its creator that this expression should >>> convey the concept of the work. Such a whole can in turn be part of a >>> larger whole. >>> >>> >>> Inherent to the notion of work is the completion of recognisable >>> outcomes of the work. These outcomes, i.e. the Self-Contained Expressions, >>> are regarded as the symbolic equivalents of Individual Works, which form >>> the atoms of a complex work. A Self-Contained Expression may contain >>> expressions or parts of expressions from other work, such as citations or >>> items collected in anthologies. Even though they are incorporated in the >>> Self-Contained Expression, they are not regarded as becoming members of the >>> expressed container work by their inclusion in the expression, but are >>> rather regarded as foreign or referred to elements. >>> >>> >>> F22 Self-Contained Expression can be distinguished from F23 Expression >>> Fragment in that an F23 Expression Fragment was not intended by its creator >>> to make sense by itself. Normally creators would characterise an outcome of >>> a work as finished. In other cases, one could recognise an outcome of a >>> work as complete from the elaboration or logical coherence of its content, >>> or if there is any historical knowledge about the creator deliberately or >>> accidentally never finishing (completing) that particular expression. In >>> all those cases, one would regard an expression as self-contained. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *From:* Dominic Oldman >>> *Sent:* 09 March 2017 20:50 >>> *To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 >>> >>> >>> So in this case the self contained expression (information object) >>> identified as page 1 can then be represented by a part of a PDF image which >>> itself identifies parts (a physical page?) which are identified accordingly. >>> >>> I'm still not sure whether this
Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
Hi There are many ways to number or put identifiers to parts of written or printed material:folio, sheet (versio/recto), page. If the physical original is known, perhaps a starting point would be to model the physical parts and their relationships. The pdfs in question seems to be facsimiles of these physical parts. (a single page, double pages etc). A possible way to model them is to see the pdfs as carriers of visual items reperesenting the physical objects of the specific item (P5). The first example in the compenote of P138 represents (has representation): the digital file found at http://www.emunch.no/N/full/No-MM_N0001-01.jpg (E36) represents page 1 of Edward Munch's manuscript MM N 1, Munch-museet (E73) mode of representation Digitisation(E55) Best Christian-Emil From: Crm-sig on behalf of Dominic Oldman Sent: 09 March 2017 17:59 To: Florian Kräutli; crm-sig@ics.forth.gr Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 Hi Florian, Just trying to understand. You have an expression that is organised with page numbers. This is reproduced in the PDF. The expression page numbers are the same (the information object) but page 1 is spread over two carrier pages. i.e. page 1 is still page 1 as an information object but on the application adobe spreads it over two application carrier pages. Is that right? or is it something else. If the expression is the same (the same information object) then isn't page 1, page 1 Can you clarify. D From: Crm-sig [crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] on behalf of Florian Kräutli [fkraeu...@mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de] Sent: 09 March 2017 10:38 To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 Dear Martin, many thanks for your input! Our question at the moment is simply, does a page in the PDF represent one or two pages of the book? Later on, we might have more specific questions that will require us to define the relationships between these two page identifiers (in the physical book and in the PDF) more explicitly. We would then also need to manually assess each PDF as, for instance, we can not assume that page n in a book corresponds to page n/2 in a double-spread PDF. A PDF might contain some additional pages with information about the digitisation process. For now we however only need a binary answer: double-spread yes or no. All the best, Florian > On 8 Mar 2017, at 11:00, crm-sig-requ...@ics.forth.gr wrote: > > Send Crm-sig mailing list submissions to > crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > crm-sig-requ...@ics.forth.gr > > You can reach the person managing the list at > crm-sig-ow...@ics.forth.gr > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Crm-sig digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Pages reproduced as spreads (martin) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:24:17 +0200 > From: martin > To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Pages reproduced as spreads > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Dear Florian, > > There is no model without a question. Pages of books constitute a > partitioning of an > information object. Each page number can be seen as an identifier. > Paragraphs belong to an alternative partitioning system. The > reproduction has its own particioning, the scanned double pages. > Each scanned image represents, actually also incorporates, the text of > two pages of the reproduced. > Between alternative partitionings, one can define includes/overlaps > relations. > > If this is elegant, depends on what queries or functions you'd like to > support. > > Best, > > martin > > On 7/3/2017 1:36 ??, Florian Kr?utli wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> I have a collection of Books (F5) that have been reproduced (F33) as PDFs >> (E84). >> In some cases, books have been digitised as spreads i.e. one page in the PDF >> represents two pages in the book. >> >> Is there an elegant way to model this? >> >> Best, >> >> Florian >> ___ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> > > > -- > > -- > Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625| > Research Direct
Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
Hi Florian, Just trying to understand. You have an expression that is organised with page numbers. This is reproduced in the PDF. The expression page numbers are the same (the information object) but page 1 is spread over two carrier pages. i.e. page 1 is still page 1 as an information object but on the application adobe spreads it over two application carrier pages. Is that right? or is it something else. If the expression is the same (the same information object) then isn't page 1, page 1 Can you clarify. D From: Crm-sig [crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] on behalf of Florian Kräutli [fkraeu...@mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de] Sent: 09 March 2017 10:38 To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 Dear Martin, many thanks for your input! Our question at the moment is simply, does a page in the PDF represent one or two pages of the book? Later on, we might have more specific questions that will require us to define the relationships between these two page identifiers (in the physical book and in the PDF) more explicitly. We would then also need to manually assess each PDF as, for instance, we can not assume that page n in a book corresponds to page n/2 in a double-spread PDF. A PDF might contain some additional pages with information about the digitisation process. For now we however only need a binary answer: double-spread yes or no. All the best, Florian > On 8 Mar 2017, at 11:00, crm-sig-requ...@ics.forth.gr wrote: > > Send Crm-sig mailing list submissions to > crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > crm-sig-requ...@ics.forth.gr > > You can reach the person managing the list at > crm-sig-ow...@ics.forth.gr > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Crm-sig digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Pages reproduced as spreads (martin) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:24:17 +0200 > From: martin > To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Pages reproduced as spreads > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Dear Florian, > > There is no model without a question. Pages of books constitute a > partitioning of an > information object. Each page number can be seen as an identifier. > Paragraphs belong to an alternative partitioning system. The > reproduction has its own particioning, the scanned double pages. > Each scanned image represents, actually also incorporates, the text of > two pages of the reproduced. > Between alternative partitionings, one can define includes/overlaps > relations. > > If this is elegant, depends on what queries or functions you'd like to > support. > > Best, > > martin > > On 7/3/2017 1:36 ??, Florian Kr?utli wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> I have a collection of Books (F5) that have been reproduced (F33) as PDFs >> (E84). >> In some cases, books have been digitised as spreads i.e. one page in the PDF >> represents two pages in the book. >> >> Is there an elegant way to model this? >> >> Best, >> >> Florian >> ___ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> > > > -- > > -- > Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625| > Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638| >| Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr | > | >Center for Cultural Informatics | >Information Systems Laboratory| > Institute of Computer Science| >Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | > | >N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | > | > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl | > -- > > > > -- > > Subject: Digest Footer > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > -- > > End of Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 > *** ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
Dear Martin, many thanks for your input! Our question at the moment is simply, does a page in the PDF represent one or two pages of the book? Later on, we might have more specific questions that will require us to define the relationships between these two page identifiers (in the physical book and in the PDF) more explicitly. We would then also need to manually assess each PDF as, for instance, we can not assume that page n in a book corresponds to page n/2 in a double-spread PDF. A PDF might contain some additional pages with information about the digitisation process. For now we however only need a binary answer: double-spread yes or no. All the best, Florian > On 8 Mar 2017, at 11:00, crm-sig-requ...@ics.forth.gr wrote: > > Send Crm-sig mailing list submissions to > crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > crm-sig-requ...@ics.forth.gr > > You can reach the person managing the list at > crm-sig-ow...@ics.forth.gr > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Crm-sig digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Pages reproduced as spreads (martin) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:24:17 +0200 > From: martin > To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Pages reproduced as spreads > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Dear Florian, > > There is no model without a question. Pages of books constitute a > partitioning of an > information object. Each page number can be seen as an identifier. > Paragraphs belong to an alternative partitioning system. The > reproduction has its own particioning, the scanned double pages. > Each scanned image represents, actually also incorporates, the text of > two pages of the reproduced. > Between alternative partitionings, one can define includes/overlaps > relations. > > If this is elegant, depends on what queries or functions you'd like to > support. > > Best, > > martin > > On 7/3/2017 1:36 ??, Florian Kr?utli wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> I have a collection of Books (F5) that have been reproduced (F33) as PDFs >> (E84). >> In some cases, books have been digitised as spreads i.e. one page in the PDF >> represents two pages in the book. >> >> Is there an elegant way to model this? >> >> Best, >> >> Florian >> ___ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> > > > -- > > -- > Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625| > Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638| >| Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr | > | >Center for Cultural Informatics | >Information Systems Laboratory| > Institute of Computer Science| >Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | > | >N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | > | > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl | > -- > > > > -- > > Subject: Digest Footer > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > -- > > End of Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8 > ***
