Re: [Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question
On 1/20/2020 1:23 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote: Dear all As an example of an instance of E24 Group one find "The President of the Swiss Confederation" which is ok. I agree. The question is not, what we like the "head" or "president" to be, and if we play with terms to make a distinction. The question is, if there is a legal concept of "the president of... decided", which is abstract from the person acting, and abstract from their office periods (all decisions of the president(s) from until...). If this role appears as "president" in *documents*, then this is the group. If it appears as "Head" in documents, this is the group. It is the evidence that matters. How should one link this instance to the Swiss Confederation which is modelled as a instance of E4 Period? Best Christian-Emil ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question
On 1/20/2020 2:51 PM, Franco Niccolucci wrote: BTW, it is moreover incorrect the statement that the “President of the Swiss Confederation” is a Group; it should be stated that the “Head of State of the Swiss Confederation” is a Group, as according to the Swiss Constitution this function is jointly assigned to the Federal Council, a Group. The President is an individual (a Person) who chairs the Council for one year as a primus inter pares. We regard the "President", just as the Pope, as a Group with one member at a time, clearly described in the scope note, I hope. Not as a Group because there are many. This is a construct to define a form of Actor. Could be subclassed adequately in CRMsoc. Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question
On 1/20/2020 3:04 PM, George Bruseker wrote: Dear Christian Emil, I agree with what Franco says but still we have no property that allows you to connect the two different meanings here entailed. I think this came up also with rights and the question of modelling jurisdiction. We don't have a property to connect periods to groups but what you present is the use case. I believe I have a homework to make the subclass of period which is a jurisdiction and which would have as its property 'under jurisdiction of' or equivalent which would connect the group to the special form of period. Interested in joining that homework? I do. I have concerns reducing period to space time volume. The jurisdiction as a period for me has as parts all actions pertaining to that role (and falling under it ?). We need someone to look up theory of states. There is a notion of the sovereign, which may be the people or an absolute king, and a notion of the executive institution, acting on behalf of the sovereign. I doubt that the Swiss Confederation regards itself as being identical with the ruling political institution. I wonder if this violates the idea of representational democracy. This deserves a well-justified model, compatible with legal theory of states. I believe it should be in CRMsoc. Further, we should have an understanding how this applies or is clearly different to "city states" in the past with fuzzy territories. Does it apply at all to a "Nomadic Empire" as the Golden Horde, or can we draw a line here. All the best, Martin Best, George On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 2:59 PM Franco Niccolucci mailto:franco.niccolu...@gmail.com>> wrote: The issue comes from the fact that the said President is not the president of the mountains, lakes, plains etc that form Switzerland; there are two “Swiss Confederation”s here: more precisely, there is Switzerland (the territory) and the Swiss Confederation (the political institution ruling Switzerland). In other words, Ms. Sommaruga is the current President of the Helvetic Confederation, not of the corresponding land, ruled by the Confederation, which is a Space-time volume. BTW, it is moreover incorrect the statement that the “President of the Swiss Confederation” is a Group; it should be stated that the “Head of State of the Swiss Confederation” is a Group, as according to the Swiss Constitution this function is jointly assigned to the Federal Council, a Group. The President is an individual (a Person) who chairs the Council for one year as a primus inter pares. In sum, there are two different concepts associated with a country: a) the territory, possibly variable in time, which is rightfully modelled as a Space-time volume b) the state, which depends on the political and legislative structure and possibly on the international recognition; you choose how to model it, perhaps as a Group? It has a beginning and an end. E.g. France roughly corresponds in time to the same territory but the state of France has been different: monarchy, then republic, then empire, then monarchy and finally republic again; such changes had no direct relationship with the changes of the corresponding territory. Conversely, there may be changes in the territory with no change in the state, for example the Kingdom of Italy before and after each World War, same state, king and Constitution but different territory. In 1946 Italy became a Republic, political change but same territory. Such difference is also evidenced by different names: Switzerland versus Confoederatio Helvetica, Italy versus Italian Republic etc. There is an obvious relationship between b) and a). But they are not the same: if a) changes b) may remain the same and viceversa. A President/King/citizen is president/etc. of b), not of a). Examples where currently only one of a)/b) exists: . the Sovereign Military Order of Malte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta) is recognized by 107 states so it exists as a state but has no territory on which it exerts its power. To the best of my knowledge this is a unique case. - the Republic of North Cyprus has a territory on which it exerts its control but is not internationally recognized (except by Turkey) so does not exist as a state. Franco Prof. Franco Niccolucci Director, VAST-LAB PIN - U. of Florence Scientific Coordinator ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS Editor-in-Chief ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) Piazza Ciardi 25 59100 Prato, Italy > Il giorno 20 gen 2020, alle ore 12:23, Christian-Emil Smith Ore mailto:c.e.s@iln.uio.no>> ha scritto: > > Dear all > As an example of an instance of E24 Group one find "The President of the Swiss Confederation" which is ok. How sho
Re: [Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question
Dear George, I am interested in joining. My original issue was not about "President of the Swiss Confederation". I just picked it form the list of examples in the definition of E74 Group (which apparently need some adjustment). My first problem was to find a way to link an actor taking care of an archaeological site, which may be modelled by P50 has current keeper (is current keeper of) by stretching the definition. Then it stroke me that even though the President of USA could be modelled as a group, it was no way to link this group (actor) to the USA. Best, Christian-Emil From: George Bruseker Sent: 20 January 2020 14:04 To: Franco Niccolucci Cc: Christian-Emil Smith Ore; crm-sig Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question Dear Christian Emil, I agree with what Franco says but still we have no property that allows you to connect the two different meanings here entailed. I think this came up also with rights and the question of modelling jurisdiction. We don't have a property to connect periods to groups but what you present is the use case. I believe I have a homework to make the subclass of period which is a jurisdiction and which would have as its property 'under jurisdiction of' or equivalent which would connect the group to the special form of period. Interested in joining that homework? Best, George On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 2:59 PM Franco Niccolucci mailto:franco.niccolu...@gmail.com>> wrote: The issue comes from the fact that the said President is not the president of the mountains, lakes, plains etc that form Switzerland; there are two “Swiss Confederation”s here: more precisely, there is Switzerland (the territory) and the Swiss Confederation (the political institution ruling Switzerland). In other words, Ms. Sommaruga is the current President of the Helvetic Confederation, not of the corresponding land, ruled by the Confederation, which is a Space-time volume. BTW, it is moreover incorrect the statement that the “President of the Swiss Confederation” is a Group; it should be stated that the “Head of State of the Swiss Confederation” is a Group, as according to the Swiss Constitution this function is jointly assigned to the Federal Council, a Group. The President is an individual (a Person) who chairs the Council for one year as a primus inter pares. In sum, there are two different concepts associated with a country: a) the territory, possibly variable in time, which is rightfully modelled as a Space-time volume b) the state, which depends on the political and legislative structure and possibly on the international recognition; you choose how to model it, perhaps as a Group? It has a beginning and an end. E.g. France roughly corresponds in time to the same territory but the state of France has been different: monarchy, then republic, then empire, then monarchy and finally republic again; such changes had no direct relationship with the changes of the corresponding territory. Conversely, there may be changes in the territory with no change in the state, for example the Kingdom of Italy before and after each World War, same state, king and Constitution but different territory. In 1946 Italy became a Republic, political change but same territory. Such difference is also evidenced by different names: Switzerland versus Confoederatio Helvetica, Italy versus Italian Republic etc. There is an obvious relationship between b) and a). But they are not the same: if a) changes b) may remain the same and viceversa. A President/King/citizen is president/etc. of b), not of a). Examples where currently only one of a)/b) exists: . the Sovereign Military Order of Malte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta) is recognized by 107 states so it exists as a state but has no territory on which it exerts its power. To the best of my knowledge this is a unique case. - the Republic of North Cyprus has a territory on which it exerts its control but is not internationally recognized (except by Turkey) so does not exist as a state. Franco Prof. Franco Niccolucci Director, VAST-LAB PIN - U. of Florence Scientific Coordinator ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS Editor-in-Chief ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) Piazza Ciardi 25 59100 Prato, Italy > Il giorno 20 gen 2020, alle ore 12:23, Christian-Emil Smith Ore > mailto:c.e.s@iln.uio.no>> ha scritto: > > Dear all > As an example of an instance of E24 Group one find "The President of the > Swiss Confederation" which is ok. How should one link this instance to the > Swiss Confederation which is modelled as a instance of E4 Period? > > Best > Christian-Emil > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> > http://lists.
Re: [Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question
Dear Christian Emil, I agree with what Franco says but still we have no property that allows you to connect the two different meanings here entailed. I think this came up also with rights and the question of modelling jurisdiction. We don't have a property to connect periods to groups but what you present is the use case. I believe I have a homework to make the subclass of period which is a jurisdiction and which would have as its property 'under jurisdiction of' or equivalent which would connect the group to the special form of period. Interested in joining that homework? Best, George On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 2:59 PM Franco Niccolucci < franco.niccolu...@gmail.com> wrote: > The issue comes from the fact that the said President is not the president > of the mountains, lakes, plains etc that form Switzerland; there are two > “Swiss Confederation”s here: more precisely, there is Switzerland (the > territory) and the Swiss Confederation (the political institution ruling > Switzerland). In other words, Ms. Sommaruga is the current President of the > Helvetic Confederation, not of the corresponding land, ruled by the > Confederation, which is a Space-time volume. > > BTW, it is moreover incorrect the statement that the “President of the > Swiss Confederation” is a Group; it should be stated that the “Head of > State of the Swiss Confederation” is a Group, as according to the Swiss > Constitution this function is jointly assigned to the Federal Council, a > Group. The President is an individual (a Person) who chairs the Council for > one year as a primus inter pares. > > In sum, there are two different concepts associated with a country: > > a) the territory, possibly variable in time, which is rightfully modelled > as a Space-time volume > > b) the state, which depends on the political and legislative structure and > possibly on the international recognition; you choose how to model it, > perhaps as a Group? It has a beginning and an end. E.g. France roughly > corresponds in time to the same territory but the state of France has been > different: monarchy, then republic, then empire, then monarchy and finally > republic again; such changes had no direct relationship with the changes of > the corresponding territory. Conversely, there may be changes in the > territory with no change in the state, for example the Kingdom of Italy > before and after each World War, same state, king and Constitution but > different territory. In 1946 Italy became a Republic, political change but > same territory. > > Such difference is also evidenced by different names: Switzerland versus > Confoederatio Helvetica, Italy versus Italian Republic etc. > > There is an obvious relationship between b) and a). But they are not the > same: if a) changes b) may remain the same and viceversa. > > A President/King/citizen is president/etc. of b), not of a). > > Examples where currently only one of a)/b) exists: > . the Sovereign Military Order of Malte ( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta) is > recognized by 107 states so it exists as a state but has no territory on > which it exerts its power. To the best of my knowledge this is a unique > case. > - the Republic of North Cyprus has a territory on which it exerts its > control but is not internationally recognized (except by Turkey) so does > not exist as a state. > > Franco > > > > > Prof. Franco Niccolucci > Director, VAST-LAB > PIN - U. of Florence > Scientific Coordinator > ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS > > Editor-in-Chief > ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) > > Piazza Ciardi 25 > 59100 Prato, Italy > > > > Il giorno 20 gen 2020, alle ore 12:23, Christian-Emil Smith Ore < > c.e.s@iln.uio.no> ha scritto: > > > > Dear all > > As an example of an instance of E24 Group one find "The President of > the Swiss Confederation" which is ok. How should one link this instance to > the Swiss Confederation which is modelled as a instance of E4 Period? > > > > Best > > Christian-Emil > > ___ > > Crm-sig mailing list > > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question
PS My main concern I thing was to find/define a property P from E24 group to the slices of E4. Off course since Swiss Confederation (sc) is an E4 Period it could also be seen as a E7 Activity and then use P14 carried out by (performed) with a .1 type. Theis will be pretty weird. Best, Christian-Emil From: Carlo Meghini at ISTI CNR Sent: 20 January 2020 13:29 To: Christian-Emil Smith Ore Cc: crm-sig Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question The Swiss Confederation (sc) is an E4 Period linked to its president (pr, an instance by E24 Group) by a specific property P. P is a time-changing property, so according to the approach of 4D-fluents, one defines suitable “slices” of sc and of pr for each different president and links each other via P. These slices are instances of E92 Spacetime Volume linked to their “static” counterparts (sc and pr) by property P10. E.g. sc1 P10 sc . pr1 P10 pr . pr1 P sc1 . Carlo > On 20 Jan 2020, at 12:23, Christian-Emil Smith Ore > wrote: > > Dear all > As an example of an instance of E24 Group one find "The President of the > Swiss Confederation" which is ok. How should one link this instance to the > Swiss Confederation which is modelled as a instance of E4 Period? > > Best > Christian-Emil > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig Carlo Meghini Istituto di Scienza e Tecnologie della Informazione [ ISTI ] Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche [ CNR ] Via G. Moruzzi, 1 - 56124 Pisa - Italy Tel: +39 050 6212893 E-Mail: carlo.megh...@isti.cnr.it Fax: +39 050 6213464 Web: nmis.isti.cnr.it/meghini/ ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question
The issue comes from the fact that the said President is not the president of the mountains, lakes, plains etc that form Switzerland; there are two “Swiss Confederation”s here: more precisely, there is Switzerland (the territory) and the Swiss Confederation (the political institution ruling Switzerland). In other words, Ms. Sommaruga is the current President of the Helvetic Confederation, not of the corresponding land, ruled by the Confederation, which is a Space-time volume. BTW, it is moreover incorrect the statement that the “President of the Swiss Confederation” is a Group; it should be stated that the “Head of State of the Swiss Confederation” is a Group, as according to the Swiss Constitution this function is jointly assigned to the Federal Council, a Group. The President is an individual (a Person) who chairs the Council for one year as a primus inter pares. In sum, there are two different concepts associated with a country: a) the territory, possibly variable in time, which is rightfully modelled as a Space-time volume b) the state, which depends on the political and legislative structure and possibly on the international recognition; you choose how to model it, perhaps as a Group? It has a beginning and an end. E.g. France roughly corresponds in time to the same territory but the state of France has been different: monarchy, then republic, then empire, then monarchy and finally republic again; such changes had no direct relationship with the changes of the corresponding territory. Conversely, there may be changes in the territory with no change in the state, for example the Kingdom of Italy before and after each World War, same state, king and Constitution but different territory. In 1946 Italy became a Republic, political change but same territory. Such difference is also evidenced by different names: Switzerland versus Confoederatio Helvetica, Italy versus Italian Republic etc. There is an obvious relationship between b) and a). But they are not the same: if a) changes b) may remain the same and viceversa. A President/King/citizen is president/etc. of b), not of a). Examples where currently only one of a)/b) exists: . the Sovereign Military Order of Malte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta) is recognized by 107 states so it exists as a state but has no territory on which it exerts its power. To the best of my knowledge this is a unique case. - the Republic of North Cyprus has a territory on which it exerts its control but is not internationally recognized (except by Turkey) so does not exist as a state. Franco Prof. Franco Niccolucci Director, VAST-LAB PIN - U. of Florence Scientific Coordinator ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS Editor-in-Chief ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) Piazza Ciardi 25 59100 Prato, Italy > Il giorno 20 gen 2020, alle ore 12:23, Christian-Emil Smith Ore > ha scritto: > > Dear all > As an example of an instance of E24 Group one find "The President of the > Swiss Confederation" which is ok. How should one link this instance to the > Swiss Confederation which is modelled as a instance of E4 Period? > > Best > Christian-Emil > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question
Thank you, forgot about STVs. Best, Christian-Emil From: Carlo Meghini at ISTI CNR Sent: 20 January 2020 13:29 To: Christian-Emil Smith Ore Cc: crm-sig Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question The Swiss Confederation (sc) is an E4 Period linked to its president (pr, an instance by E24 Group) by a specific property P. P is a time-changing property, so according to the approach of 4D-fluents, one defines suitable “slices” of sc and of pr for each different president and links each other via P. These slices are instances of E92 Spacetime Volume linked to their “static” counterparts (sc and pr) by property P10. E.g. sc1 P10 sc . pr1 P10 pr . pr1 P sc1 . Carlo > On 20 Jan 2020, at 12:23, Christian-Emil Smith Ore > wrote: > > Dear all > As an example of an instance of E24 Group one find "The President of the > Swiss Confederation" which is ok. How should one link this instance to the > Swiss Confederation which is modelled as a instance of E4 Period? > > Best > Christian-Emil > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig Carlo Meghini Istituto di Scienza e Tecnologie della Informazione [ ISTI ] Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche [ CNR ] Via G. Moruzzi, 1 - 56124 Pisa - Italy Tel: +39 050 6212893 E-Mail: carlo.megh...@isti.cnr.it Fax: +39 050 6213464 Web: nmis.isti.cnr.it/meghini/ ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] and now something completely different - a modelling question
Dear all As an example of an instance of E24 Group one find "The President of the Swiss Confederation" which is ok. How should one link this instance to the Swiss Confederation? which is modelled as a instance of E4 Period? Best Christian-Emil ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
