[crossfire] Things to fix
Hello. Here are some things that need fixing IMO. I intend to start some, but I can't do everything alone :) The game is missing lore. Some is on the wiki, but not much is integrated in the game itself. Also, many many maps are missing hints relative to their location or purpose (warrior tower, ...). So we need people to first incorporate the existing lore, then add missing one, into a coherent thing, then add hints to various places or things. Ideally, *all* houses and maps could have a whole story (ok, not a whole quest maybe, but some background). Lore should be in various forms, all more or less "right" according to the "real" story (eg same story from various point of view, various versions, ...). I'd like to expand towns to let's say 5 times their current size. This would enable even more things, and make the scale better IMO. Ideally, the world itself could be much expanded. I'm not sure of the best way to put lore ingame. Currently we have books (random things), NPCs. I added some professors in Navar university, one can tell you a long story about Lorkas if you ask. Things to take into account, IMO, are: one NPC shouldn't know everything of the world, or maybe even all the details of one thing. On the other hand, it can be weird to have exactly all the people you need to learn things... Opinions on how to present lore or on those issues? The combat rebalance needs to be finished. Mark, how can we help you on that? Also, do people have comments about the current hand to hand combat rebalance? Can be seen on the Ailesse servers (one permadeath, the other non permadeath). What about general item/monster fixing/balance? IMO, the best way to progress is "game experience-driven development": develop things because they add stuff to the general ingame atmosphere, not for the sake of it "because it's cool". In the same way, we should avoid the "not invented here" syndrom and try to use existing libraries when they exist. Concerning bugs, IMO the most critical are: - http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1967585&group_id=13833&atid=113833 (unique items on world maps deleted) - http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1936178&group_id=13833&atid=113833 trying to remove removed object causes server crash (tentatively fixed) Others are less critical, and considering our development force for now, they can wait. Ideally, we'd have a "chief mapmaker", a "chief lore", a "chief monster", a "chief combat balance", whatever, so *someone* can decide various points when there is no consensus. Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Things to fix
Le jeudi 29 mai 2008, Nicolas Weeger a écrit : > Hello. > > Here are some things that need fixing IMO. I intend to start some, but I > can't do everything alone :) > > > The game is missing lore. Some is on the wiki, but not much is integrated > in the game itself. Also, many many maps are missing hints relative to > their location or purpose (warrior tower, ...). > > So we need people to first incorporate the existing lore, then add missing > one, into a coherent thing, then add hints to various places or things. > Ideally, *all* houses and maps could have a whole story (ok, not a whole > quest maybe, but some background). > I'd answer "yes, but with comments" on this one. A lot of places do not really need a "story" - places like pubs, inns or shops often don't require such background for themselves. OTOH, what they always require is a "taste of truth". A shop is technically nothing more than a place where you can buy objects; but in-game-wise, it is a place where people work and try to make it so customers are attracted. To achieve such a result, "utility" maps, or maps that are too "small" should get details that make them more believable: customers passing by in shops; drunk lads causing trouble at night in the pub; and so on. Another small idea: most places are probably not open all the time, or offer different things based on the time of the day - that wouldn't be very hard to implement either, but would make the place more alive. > I'd like to expand towns to let's say 5 times their current size. This > would enable even more things, and make the scale better IMO. > Ideally, the world itself could be much expanded. > I'm not sure of that. If you mean "scenaristic expansion" (more active NPCs, clues - true or false - or dynamic effects that have an impact on the story), then I agree. But if you are speaking of geographic expansion, I'd disagree: IMHO, the main issue is not how small cities are, but how (in)efficiently the available space is used. Or to say it in another way: it is not the number of pages that makes a book good. Besides that, I believe it is easier to not start with huge projects, but rather work with smaller scenaristic chunks and maps, and expand places only step by step, as the need arises. > > I'm not sure of the best way to put lore ingame. Currently we have books > (random things), NPCs. I added some professors in Navar university, one can > tell you a long story about Lorkas if you ask. > Things to take into account, IMO, are: one NPC shouldn't know everything of > the world, or maybe even all the details of one thing. On the other hand, > it can be weird to have exactly all the people you need to learn things... > > Opinions on how to present lore or on those issues? > Two main paths for information diffusion: - Random diffusion, from automatically generated books, artifacts, or NPCs; - Human-implemented, by map-makers. Random lore bits should be managed just like any other item: the rarer they are, the higher the chance for them to be meaningful/important/accurate. With a few dead-end ones, to trap the player, of course: not every legend known has to be true, or lead to a quest. Just because Karis Imaden told you there was a huge treasure hidden in one room of the Scorn's Inn doesn't make it true :). Human-implemented lore should follow the classical rules of scenario writing: enough clues to allow the player to be able to progress through the story, but with a layer of uncertainty/inaccuracy, whose importance depends on the average difficulty level of the quest. The principle of "key objects" one must own to trigger a new clue, or the right action to take at the right moment, should be much more extensively used. Most current NPCs are only working on a keyword/answer paradygm, simply because nothing else was possible; this is no longer the case, and we should thus make full use of the available possibilities. > The combat rebalance needs to be finished. Mark, how can we help you on > that? Also, do people have comments about the current hand to hand combat > rebalance? Can be seen on the Ailesse servers (one permadeath, the other > non > permadeath). > What about general item/monster fixing/balance? > No opinion on this. > IMO, the best way to progress is "game experience-driven development": > develop things because they add stuff to the general ingame atmosphere, not > for the sake of it "because it's cool". In the same way, we should avoid > the "not invented here" syndrom and try to use existing libraries when they > exist. > Again, I'd agree - with caveats. Adding things "because they are cool" is perfectly fine - as long as they allow cool in-game results, and just not because it is technically esthetical. I'd prefer seeing development being driven by the "what kind of game do we want ?" reflexion; the "game experience-driven development" is part of it, but there is more than that - mainly the need for a coherent idea of the
Re: [crossfire] Things to fix
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Yann Chachkoff wrote: | Le jeudi 29 mai 2008, Nicolas Weeger a écrit : |> Hello. |> |> Here are some things that need fixing IMO. I intend to start some, but I |> can't do everything alone :) |> |> |> The game is missing lore. Some is on the wiki, but not much is integrated |> in the game itself. Also, many many maps are missing hints relative to |> their location or purpose (warrior tower, ...). |> |> So we need people to first incorporate the existing lore, then add missing |> one, into a coherent thing, then add hints to various places or things. |> Ideally, *all* houses and maps could have a whole story (ok, not a whole |> quest maybe, but some background). |> | I'd answer "yes, but with comments" on this one. A lot of places do not really | need a "story" - places like pubs, inns or shops often don't require such | background for themselves. | | OTOH, what they always require is a "taste of truth". A shop is technically | nothing more than a place where you can buy objects; but in-game-wise, it is | a place where people work and try to make it so customers are attracted. To | achieve such a result, "utility" maps, or maps that are too "small" should | get details that make them more believable: customers passing by in shops; | drunk lads causing trouble at night in the pub; and so on. | | Another small idea: most places are probably not open all the time, or offer | different things based on the time of the day - that wouldn't be very hard to | implement either, but would make the place more alive. | I agree with Yann Chachkoff. | |> I'd like to expand towns to let's say 5 times their current size. This |> would enable even more things, and make the scale better IMO. |> Ideally, the world itself could be much expanded. |> | I'm not sure of that. If you mean "scenaristic expansion" (more active NPCs, | clues - true or false - or dynamic effects that have an impact on the story), | then I agree. But if you are speaking of geographic expansion, I'd disagree: | IMHO, the main issue is not how small cities are, but how (in)efficiently the | available space is used. | Or to say it in another way: it is not the number of pages that makes a book | good. Besides that, I believe it is easier to not start with huge projects, | but rather work with smaller scenaristic chunks and maps, and expand places | only step by step, as the need arises. Indeed, we need to fill up the current bigworld a bit before we change to a hugeworld, it is mostly empty as it is. More quests out in the wilderness. | |> I'm not sure of the best way to put lore ingame. Currently we have books |> (random things), NPCs. I added some professors in Navar university, one can |> tell you a long story about Lorkas if you ask. |> Things to take into account, IMO, are: one NPC shouldn't know everything of |> the world, or maybe even all the details of one thing. On the other hand, |> it can be weird to have exactly all the people you need to learn things... |> |> Opinions on how to present lore or on those issues? |> | Two main paths for information diffusion: | - Random diffusion, from automatically generated books, artifacts, or NPCs; | - Human-implemented, by map-makers. | | Random lore bits should be managed just like any other item: the rarer they | are, the higher the chance for them to be meaningful/important/accurate. With | a few dead-end ones, to trap the player, of course: not every legend known | has to be true, or lead to a quest. Just because Karis Imaden told you there | was a huge treasure hidden in one room of the Scorn's Inn doesn't make it | true :). | Human-implemented lore should follow the classical rules of scenario writing: | enough clues to allow the player to be able to progress through the story, | but with a layer of uncertainty/inaccuracy, whose importance depends on the | average difficulty level of the quest. The principle of "key objects" one | must own to trigger a new clue, or the right action to take at the right | moment, should be much more extensively used. Most current NPCs are only | working on a keyword/answer paradygm, simply because nothing else was | possible; this is no longer the case, and we should thus make full use of the | available possibilities. I agree. | |> The combat rebalance needs to be finished. Mark, how can we help you on |> that? Also, do people have comments about the current hand to hand combat |> rebalance? Can be seen on the Ailesse servers (one permadeath, the other |> non |> permadeath). |> What about general item/monster fixing/balance? |> | No opinion on this. No opinions on this either. | |> IMO, the best way to progress is "game experience-driven development": |> develop things because they add stuff to the general ingame atmosphere, not |> for the sake of it "because it's cool". In the same way, we should avoid |> the "not invented here" syndrom and try to use existing libraries when they |> exist. |> | Again, I'd agree - with
Re: [crossfire] Things to fix
On Thu, 29 May 2008 22:37:38 +0200 Nicolas Weeger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The game is missing lore. Some is on the wiki, but not much is > integrated in the game itself. Also, many many maps are missing hints > relative to their location or purpose (warrior tower, ...). Yes, though as far as locations, I'm not sure of how to even give hints for some locations. The Warriors Tower for instance, can be found by following the road to the north of scorn to the end of it, then searching in the northeast direction, however the area to the northeast is rather barren and I'm not sure what would be a decent hint for how to find it there. > So we need people to first incorporate the existing lore, then add > missing one, into a coherent thing, then add hints to various places > or things. Ideally, *all* houses and maps could have a whole story > (ok, not a whole quest maybe, but some background). I would say that some places might be slightly excessive to have a 'whole story' with, but for sure very many places need more than there currently is. > I'd like to expand towns to let's say 5 times their current size. > This would enable even more things, and make the scale better IMO. > Ideally, the world itself could be much expanded.an interesting plan It sounds like would be interesting in some ways, however I'm unsure of what would really be solving in terms of player experience to just add more size to towns or bigworld. There's already plenty of cheap real estate in Bigworld :) > I'm not sure of the best way to put lore ingame. Currently we have > books (random things), NPCs. I added some professors in Navar > university, one can tell you a long story about Lorkas if you ask. > Things to take into account, IMO, are: one NPC shouldn't know > everything of the world, or maybe even all the details of one thing. > On the other hand, it can be weird to have exactly all the people you > need to learn things... > > Opinions on how to present lore or on those issues? I'm not entirely sure really in some ways. If it's particularly key lore, maybe we could do more of things almost like "cutscenes" using cfanim or something? Besides that, I don't think there's too much that can be done besides occasional information in > The combat rebalance needs to be finished. Mark, how can we help you > on that? Also, do people have comments about the current hand to hand > combat rebalance? Can be seen on the Ailesse servers (one permadeath, > the other non permadeath). > What about general item/monster fixing/balance? In general my thought about these re-balancing things, is it would be really nice if we had some "reference points" of what we would call balanced. Deciding things like "How long should it take a typical level 10 warrior to kill a typical level 10 monster?" or "How powerful a sword makes sense for a level 10?". Of course, I wouldn't say quantifying and deciding such things is necessarily easy, but I think we should make decisions around the "game experience". As far as combat goes, I think it's mainly about three factors: * How long does it take to kill? * How risky is it to kill? * and how much does it benefit the player to kill? (exp, items, etc.) One thought about the first and second ones, is it might not be too hard to make a calculator for those using a reference set of player files, if we think it might be helpful to be rapidly get a better idea of what a given monster stat change means for the game experience. > IMO, the best way to progress is "game experience-driven > development": develop things because they add stuff to the general > ingame atmosphere, not for the sake of it "because it's cool". In the > same way, we should avoid the "not invented here" syndrom and try to > use existing libraries when they exist. For sure! I'm personally trying to think of that more these days, such as instead of thinking "Ew, the protocol is messy, a rewrite would be nice", thinking of "Well, what in a protocol would improve the game experience?" (that specific case is another topic that I won't go into deeper in this thread) Alex signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Things to fix
On Thu 29/05/08 1:37 PM , Nicolas Weeger [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: > The combat rebalance needs to be finished. Mark, how can we help you > on that? > Also, do people have comments about the current hand to hand combat > rebalance? > Can be seen on the Ailesse servers (one permadeath, the other non > permadeath). > What about general item/monster fixing/balance? I plan to start working on that once I get back from vacation in another week and a half or so. Excuse the mistakes - Austrian kezboards have the kezs in the wrong places... For combat, most useful information is existing feedback, as well as some reference characters at different levels to see how what thez look like. As I've been rebalancing things, I've also been doing monsters, but less so items. Some depends on more overall plaz feel - combat is slowed down, but is still largelz hack up a bunch of monsters. Some redesign of maps maz be in order to have fewer monsters, but those that do exist are tougher. For most of the normal monsters, I've been trzing to give them stats closer to that of the plazer - in that waz, plazer vs plazer combat, whether intentional or not, is also more balanced. But that isn't to saz that the big boss monster can't have 5 times the hp of the plazer for example. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Things to fix
> > The combat rebalance needs to be finished. Mark, how can we help you > > on that? > > Also, do people have comments about the current hand to hand combat > > rebalance? > > Can be seen on the Ailesse servers (one permadeath, the other non > > permadeath). > > What about general item/monster fixing/balance? > > I plan to start working on that once I get back from vacation in another > week and a half or so. Excuse the mistakes - Austrian kezboards have the > kezs in the wrong places... So, can we expect anything before the end of the millenium? :) Anything we can help? IMO, once combat is rebalanced, even if imperfectly, we should forget about branch except for critical bugfixes. Trunk should become stable, someday! Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Things to fix
Nicolas Weeger wrote: >>> The combat rebalance needs to be finished. Mark, how can we help you >>> on that? >>> Also, do people have comments about the current hand to hand combat >>> rebalance? >>> Can be seen on the Ailesse servers (one permadeath, the other non >>> permadeath). >>> What about general item/monster fixing/balance? >> I plan to start working on that once I get back from vacation in another >> week and a half or so. Excuse the mistakes - Austrian kezboards have the >> kezs in the wrong places... > > So, can we expect anything before the end of the millenium? :) Maybe even by the end of the decade :) > Anything we can help? If folks find areas that need balancing working, knowing about them is useful. The main things I know about are spells and higher level monsters. > > IMO, once combat is rebalanced, even if imperfectly, we should forget about > branch except for critical bugfixes. Trunk should become stable, someday! Yes - most likely. But it also depends if other incompatible changes (within the trunk) are likely to happen. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
