Re: DeCSS, crypto, law, and economics

[Phil Karn]

John Gilmore wrote:


The kind of segmentation your graphs rely on can easily be created
by *time* segmentation.  Producers start off charging high prices for
their goods, and then gradually reduce the prices as they ramp up
volumes, pay off their startup costs, learn the desires of their market
better, etc.  This gets the social benefit you desire, without propping
up any artificial forms of segmentation.


Exactly. Time segmentation already practiced by the movie studios and 
book publishers, and it's pretty hard to arbitrage -- until somebody 
invents time travel.

Much movie piracy is driven by the strange practice of releasing new 
movies in different countries at different times. This is a major form 
of geographic market segmentation. If "Two Towers" had been released 
world-wide on the same day instead of only in the US and a few other 
countries, then there would have been little motivation for anxious fans 
around the world to get US collaborators to make a crappy videotape of 
the film in a US theater and export it. They'd just go to their local 
theaters and see it in its full glory.

Phil



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Re: DeCSS, crypto, law, and economics

[Pete Chown]

Matt Blaze wrote:


Huh?  DVD region coding doesn't prevent this at all; ripped decrypted
DVD mpeg files could be played anywhere.


I think that DRM mechanisms may increase piracy.  A few years ago you 
could buy a CD, knowing that it was a standard product which you could 
use in certain ways.  Now, you might get it home and find that you can 
play it in your hi-fi, but not in your car.  Next time, you're not going 
to make that mistake, you'll just log on to Kazaa and download an MP3.

--
Pete


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Re: DeCSS, crypto, law, and economics

[Pete Chown]

Alan wrote:


Another argument for the regions is the differing formats for TV
signals. (NTSC v.s. PAL.)  It is a bogus argument as you can find DVD
players that will convert the signal with little or no problem.


Actually my TV is happy with either.  I always had the notion that I 
wouldn't be able to play American videotapes, but then I tried it and it 
works fine.  So if I don't want to bother with region codes, the other 
possibility is to buy films on video.

When I play region-1 DVDs, the player doesn't convert the signal.  This 
would introduce a slight judder because of the differing frame rates. 
Instead the TV just acts like a multisync monitor, and adjusts to the 
signal it is given.

(My TV is a middle of the road model, not the cheapest but nowhere near 
the most expensive either.)

--
Pete


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Re: DeCSS, crypto, law, and economics

[Birger Toedtmann]

David Turner schrieb am Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 01:29:39PM -0500:
> On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 05:50, Pete Chown wrote:
> 
> > With DVDs we have a complex situation.  Supposedly studios can make more 
> > per film, so they can afford to make more marginal films. 
> 
> To make films which will not make money is not an economically rational
> action even if one is making other films which do make money. This is
> the point the 17 economists made in their Eldred amicus.  

It depends.  In not-so-simple-scenarios, one may use it on behalf of
PR (attracting people to one's product portfolio) or bind a promising
new director who will later create a big profit-making film.  Studios
and publishers use the latter quite frequently I guess.

If a product is definitely beyond any profit, it won't get produced
by market forces, thus resulting in a pure common good.  Society may
then agree upon whether it wants that good to be produced anyway,
paying it with taxes, presumably.  You can see this with theatre,
arts, opera etc.  This is "economically rational" as well but works
outside markets only.  Don't mix rationality and market forces.


[ The same applies to goods where a producer is not able to discriminate
  usage.  If he cannot prevent some people (e.g. those who have not
  paid) to use his product, nobody would pay for it, everyone would
  freeride.  A common example is the ordinary lamp post:  How can I 
  prevent someone using its light?  As a consequence, market forces
  won't provide the public with street light, so it (the public) had
  to agree to pay taxes such that the community could set up the lamps.

  From an economic point of view, excessive copying could result into
  a situation where music/films become common goods because no one
  is able to prevent others from using it.  Exit Labels/Studios/Publish-
  ers.
 
  (Just to summarize the very obvious, excuses.) ]


Regards,

Birger Tödtmann



msg03314/pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: DeCSS, crypto, (regions removed??!)

[Bill Stewart]

At 03:54 PM 01/08/2003 +0100, Martin Olsson wrote:

Hi,
I dont know if this is relevant to the discussion, but in Sweden (not a 
region-1 country) people where so pissed at the regionsystem (and the fact 
that most computer geeks could go around it, but the average person could 
not) that the whole region concept had to be removed. Ie. this forced the 
large companies to rethink and nowadays we have commercial region-free DVD 
players in most stores.

That's an interesting change - a couple of years ago,
friends from Sweden told me that the standard was to
strictly sell only region-enforcing DVD players
and then charge a bit extra for installing the
region-free mod chips that everybody bought.
I guess they've stopped bothering with the games by now.



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Re: DeCSS, crypto, law, and economics

[David Turner]

On Thu, 2003-01-09 at 10:17, Birger Toedtmann wrote:
> David Turner schrieb am Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 01:29:39PM -0500:
> > On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 05:50, Pete Chown wrote:
> > 
> > > With DVDs we have a complex situation.  Supposedly studios can make more 
> > > per film, so they can afford to make more marginal films. 
> > 
> > To make films which will not make money is not an economically rational
> > action even if one is making other films which do make money. This is
> > the point the 17 economists made in their Eldred amicus.  
> 
> It depends.  In not-so-simple-scenarios, one may use it on behalf of
> PR (attracting people to one's product portfolio) or bind a promising
> new director who will later create a big profit-making film.  Studios
> and publishers use the latter quite frequently I guess.

This is true (and I did mean to add a disclaimer to this effect, but
couldn't find a good sentence structure which made it look
non-awkward).  However, attracting customers and developers needs to be
done whether a studio is making tons and tons or just lots of money on
its directly-profitable films.  That is, making more money on a
high-profit film doesn't encourage a studio to make more low-profit
films in order to attract directors, since they have a need to attract
directors anyway (in order to make *any* films).  The demand for
directors won't decrease with a modest decrease in profit for directly
profit-producing films, since movie studios' needs for directors depends
mainly on how many films they produce, a number which is limited mainly
by consumer demand.  Of course, consumer demand does depend on the
quality of the available movies, which depends (among many other
factors) on directors. 

So, assuming my analysis isn't completely off the wall, market
segmentation doesn't produce more "marginal" films.  On the other hand,
I don't think that the 17 economists are dispositive on this issue, now
that I've given it more thought.



>   From an economic point of view, excessive copying could result into
>   a situation where music/films become common goods because no one
>   is able to prevent others from using it.  Exit Labels/Studios/Publish-
>   ers.

The issue in this branch of the thread (to mix a metaphor) is not CSS as
copy prevention (at which it does an abysmal job), but CSS as market
segmentation (at which it does a somewhat better job). 

Disclaimer: I'm still not an economist.

-- 
-Dave Turner Stalk Me: 617 441 0668

"On matters of style, swim with the current, on matters 
of principle, stand like a rock." -Thomas Jefferson


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Re: DeCSS, crypto, law, and economics

[Michael Shields]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Phil Karn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Exactly. Time segmentation already practiced by the movie studios and
> book publishers, and it's pretty hard to arbitrage -- until somebody
> invents time travel.

For books and CDs -- and as the region coding system breaks down,
increasingly for DVDs as well -- only shipping costs and market
illiquidity protect the segmentation.  And markets are becoming more
liquid, even at the consumer level.  For example, I routinely order
the European editions of books from amazon.co.uk, for example, instead
of waiting for them to be published in the US.  This is exactly as
easy as buying from amazon.com; they even accept the same login.
-- 
Shields.


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Re: DeCSS, crypto, (regions removed??!)

[alan]

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 03:54 PM 01/08/2003 +0100, Martin Olsson wrote:
> >Hi,
> >I dont know if this is relevant to the discussion, but in Sweden (not a 
> >region-1 country) people where so pissed at the regionsystem (and the fact 
> >that most computer geeks could go around it, but the average person could 
> >not) that the whole region concept had to be removed. Ie. this forced the 
> >large companies to rethink and nowadays we have commercial region-free DVD 
> >players in most stores.
> 
> That's an interesting change - a couple of years ago,
> friends from Sweden told me that the standard was to
> strictly sell only region-enforcing DVD players
> and then charge a bit extra for installing the
> region-free mod chips that everybody bought.
> I guess they've stopped bothering with the games by now.

I wonder how they deal with the RCE (Region Code Enforced) discs?

RCE is a sceme that causes the disc not to work in region free players.  
If you want a good test disc, try the region 1 version of "Spider-man".  
In a region free player it will bring up a map of region codes and make 
nasty noises about how you need a region one player.  The disc works fine 
in players where you can set the region.  (Some region ocdeless players 
can do this, some cannot.)

You can find places that sell region free players by searching on Google 
for "Apex region free DVD".  The only one I have used is 
www.220-electronics.com and I will not order from their insecure web page. 





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Re: DeCSS, crypto, (regions removed??!)

[tpurdy]

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 05:13:03 -0800 (PST), alan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
>> At 03:54 PM 01/08/2003 +0100, Martin Olsson wrote:
>> >Hi,
>> >I dont know if this is relevant to the discussion, but in Sweden (not a 
>> >region-1 country) people where so pissed at the regionsystem (and the fact 
>> >that most computer geeks could go around it, but the average person could 
>> >not) that the whole region concept had to be removed. Ie. this forced the 
>> >large companies to rethink and nowadays we have commercial region-free DVD 
>> >players in most stores.
>> 
>> That's an interesting change - a couple of years ago,
>> friends from Sweden told me that the standard was to
>> strictly sell only region-enforcing DVD players
>> and then charge a bit extra for installing the
>> region-free mod chips that everybody bought.
>> I guess they've stopped bothering with the games by now.
>
>I wonder how they deal with the RCE (Region Code Enforced) discs?
>
>RCE is a sceme that causes the disc not to work in region free players.  
>If you want a good test disc, try the region 1 version of "Spider-man".  
>In a region free player it will bring up a map of region codes and make 
>nasty noises about how you need a region one player.  The disc works fine 
>in players where you can set the region.  (Some region ocdeless players 
>can do this, some cannot.)
>
>You can find places that sell region free players by searching on Google 
>for "Apex region free DVD".  The only one I have used is 
>www.220-electronics.com and I will not order from their insecure web page. 

Googling for code-free or region-free turns up quite a few.  The most
handy is buyers guide site  with links to
www.codefreedvd.com 
www.regionfreedvd.com
www.zonefreedvd.com (Ya, they all look like the same site.)

www.kimsvideo.com has a $140 player with instructions on how to make it
region-free without swapping proms.   Worth a look.

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Re: DeCSS, crypto, law, and economics

[Perry E. Metzger]

Matt Blaze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> By the way, import region-free DVD players *are* available, quite
> legally, within the US, as are non-region 1 disks.  Kim's video in NYC
> is one source.  They are all unfamiliar off brands, however - you won't
> find Sony or Matsushita (deliberately) producing one.

Actually, that's not true. Kim's sells grey market units typically
made without licenses to the DVD patent portfolio in places like
China, and units that are more legal but that have been cracked. The
latter are supplied with instruction sheets describing how to disable
region coding. Some of these sheets actually say things like "we can't
be responsible for the effects, but if you were to push the following
buttons in the following sequence..."

I am unaware of legal region-free players being generally available in
the US, although I may be wrong on this.

-- 
Perry E. Metzger[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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