Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Paul Novitski]

At 09:10 PM 6/17/2005, David Marr wrote:

Question about the Doctype needing to be on line 1 in the source..
With ASP, it is standard practice to set your @Language directive at
the top of the page. I believe this causes an empty line to be written
in the source. Since that is the first thing I usually do in a page,
will that still affect IE's Doctype switching?

On 6/13/05, Kelly Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you put ANYTHING before the Doctype, IE6 will shift to quirks mode
> (page authors complain to Microsoft about this because the XML prolog,
> which is SUPPOSED to be first in XHTML, will put IE6 in quirks mode).



As a general policy of maintaining control over my output pages, I avoid 
blank lines and other whitespace before the DOCTYPE tag by coding like this:


<% @Language="VBScript" %>Note that the PHP "heredoc" format does not output the carriage return 
before the HTML content, so as long as you begin the content on the second 
line of the heredoc structure you're OK:


echo <

Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Thierry Koblentz]

David Marr wrote:
> Question about the Doctype needing to be on line 1 in the source..
> With ASP, it is standard practice to set your @Language directive at
> the top of the page. I believe this causes an empty line to be written
> in the source. Since that is the first thing I usually do in a page,
> will that still affect IE's Doctype switching?

No

Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[David Marr]

Question about the Doctype needing to be on line 1 in the source..
With ASP, it is standard practice to set your @Language directive at
the top of the page. I believe this causes an empty line to be written
in the source. Since that is the first thing I usually do in a page,
will that still affect IE's Doctype switching?

On 6/13/05, Kelly Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you put ANYTHING before the Doctype, IE6 will shift to quirks mode
> (page authors complain to Microsoft about this because the XML prolog,
> which is SUPPOSED to be first in XHTML, will put IE6 in quirks mode).
> 
> Don Hinshaw wrote:
> 
> > Al Sparber wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I won't debate your personal preference versus mine - they both can
> >> achieve good results if handled properly. CSS expressions as
> >> advertised sometimes on this list lead to slutions that are not clear
> >> about quirks mode versus standards mode and can easily cause a
> >> recursive loop in IE 6 - freezing the browser.
> >>
> > I have a question about this: if using a DOCTYPE of:
> >
> >  > "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd";>
> >
> > Is there any way to put IE into quirks mode such that CSS expressions
> > can safely be used? Is it even necessary?
> > I am trying to implement a solution using them and do not want to
> > create more problems.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Don
> >
> >
> 
> 
> --
> http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/ - Get Firefox!
> http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/ - Reclaim Your Inbox!
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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Big John]

David Hucklesby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> There's also this CSS-only solution to min-width from Stu Nicholls:
> 
> 

By a strange coincidence, Mike Purvis also came up with this
idea at about the same time, but with an added wrapper to 
allow control over content widening in different resolutions:

http://uwmike.com/archive/jello-a-different-liquid-layou/

I have been heavily into this new trick for the last two weeks,
and I'm folding a liquid version of the PIE Piefecta layout
into this "jello mold" with great success. Here's the working
demo (not quite finished with the text and the linking) :

http://positioniseverything.net/articles/sidepages/jello-piefecta-simple.html

Warning: "Big John gone wild with a palette" alert!

The idea was to use the old hack ridden Piefecta, and also make a new 
simple version that does not cater to the gecko clearing but that 
existed before FF1. Unfortunately I have discovered that those old
geckos have the bug in this layout even with the old "toe-in" trick
on the side cols. So unless I can figure out how to correct it, the
layout will have a potiential side col weakness in older geckos.

If anyone can find problems with this in modern browsers, please 
let us know, okay? It has been tested to work well in IE5+ (win/mac)
and in gecko and safari as well. 

Remember, this demo is NOT finished yet!

Big John




-- 
Perennial student + Impractical joker + CSS junkie = Big John




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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Alexander Khost]

Yes, thanks for that link, David!


On 6/14/05, Ingo Chao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> David Hucklesby schrieb:
> 
> > 
> 
> That's a clever idea.
> Thanks for linking.
> Ingo
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-- 
Alexander Khost
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201-709-1470
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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Ingo Chao]

David Hucklesby schrieb:





That's a clever idea.
Thanks for linking.
Ingo
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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[David Hucklesby]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:28:43 -0400, Alexander Khost wrote:
> I recently found a CSS expression hack for IE's lack of min-width
> support.
>
Alexander,
There's also this CSS-only solution to min-width from Stu Nicholls:



Be sure to read his (short) explanation carefully. Also the comments.
I had some success with this after using "expressions" and having IE 6
lock up on me. It may take some fiddling, but it seems to work cross-
browser once it works on IE 5 and 6.

Life. Love. Peace.
David
--
David Hucklesby, on 6/14/2005

--


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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[David Laakso]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:14:13 -0400, Don Hinshaw  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:[...]

I have a question about this: if using a DOCTYPE of:
  
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd";>
Is there any way to put IE into quirks mode such that CSS expressions  
can safely be used?
Putting an XML declaration(it's a declaration, not a prolog, btw)  above  
the DOCTYPE will put IE in quirks mode.

Is it even necessary?

See the replies among the thread regarding that.
I am trying to implement a solution using them and do not want to create  
more problems.

Problems. What problems?

Regards,
Don

Regards,
David Laakso

--
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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Al Sparber]

From: "Don Hinshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


I have a question about this: if using a DOCTYPE of:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd";>

Is there any way to put IE into quirks mode such that CSS 
expressions can safely be used? Is it even necessary?
I am trying to implement a solution using them and do not want to 
create more problems.


It depends on the expression. We write ours with standards mode in 
mind. Others don't. Check the expression first to make sure what mode 
it is written for. If you're not sure, try it in standards mode and 
see if it works - note that it might cause IE to freeze. To drop IE 
into quirks mode, omit the url (the second line) in the DOCTYPE or 
place a comment above the DOCTYPE.


Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".





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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Kelly Miller]

If you put ANYTHING before the Doctype, IE6 will shift to quirks mode 
(page authors complain to Microsoft about this because the XML prolog, 
which is SUPPOSED to be first in XHTML, will put IE6 in quirks mode).


Don Hinshaw wrote:


Al Sparber wrote:



I won't debate your personal preference versus mine - they both can 
achieve good results if handled properly. CSS expressions as 
advertised sometimes on this list lead to slutions that are not clear 
about quirks mode versus standards mode and can easily cause a 
recursive loop in IE 6 - freezing the browser.



I have a question about this: if using a DOCTYPE of:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd";>

Is there any way to put IE into quirks mode such that CSS expressions 
can safely be used? Is it even necessary?
I am trying to implement a solution using them and do not want to 
create more problems.


Regards,
Don





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http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/ - Reclaim Your Inbox!

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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Richard Grevers]

On 6/14/05, Don Hinshaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Al Sparber wrote:
> 
> >
> > I won't debate your personal preference versus mine - they both can
> > achieve good results if handled properly. CSS expressions as
> > advertised sometimes on this list lead to slutions that are not clear
> > about quirks mode versus standards mode and can easily cause a
> > recursive loop in IE 6 - freezing the browser.
> >
> I have a question about this: if using a DOCTYPE of:
> 
>  "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd";>
> 
> Is there any way to put IE into quirks mode such that CSS expressions can 
> safely be used? Is it even necessary?
> I am trying to implement a solution using them and do not want to create more 
> problems.
> 
Put a comment on the line before the doctype declaration. It's an IE
bug* that it only switches doctype if the doctype declaration is on
line 1 of the source.
*Or 'silly oversight' because a quirk of a proprietary behaviour is
arguably not a bug given the lack of any standard to define expected
behaviour
-- 
Richard Grevers
New Plymouth, New Zealand
Orphan Gmail invites free to good homes.
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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Don Hinshaw]

Al Sparber wrote:



I won't debate your personal preference versus mine - they both can 
achieve good results if handled properly. CSS expressions as 
advertised sometimes on this list lead to slutions that are not clear 
about quirks mode versus standards mode and can easily cause a 
recursive loop in IE 6 - freezing the browser.



I have a question about this: if using a DOCTYPE of:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd";>

Is there any way to put IE into quirks mode such that CSS expressions can 
safely be used? Is it even necessary?
I am trying to implement a solution using them and do not want to create more 
problems.

Regards,
Don


--
Don Hinshaw
Hinshaw Design Group
http://www.hinshawdesign.com

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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Al Sparber]

From: "Gunlaug Sørtun" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


Al Sparber wrote:

From the site you linked:


"As it is now, these expressions can only be made to work in 
IE5.0+/win, and only in quirks mode. This at least give us a mean 
to overcome some of IE/win's shortcomings with regard to W3C's CSS 
standards as they are."


This is wrong. I would question anything else he writes on CSS 
Expressions because of the above statement.


You may question everything I write whenever you like, but maybe you
should read a bit further first (same page):
"Also, only stable in quirks mode (see above), although variants can 
be

made to work in IE6's "standard" mode."
(pardon my Norwenglish)

I prefer quirks mode as I find it much easier to make IE6 behave 
like a
browser that way. Also, I see no reason to complicate things by 
having
to fix IE5+/win in two modes. It's a personal preference thing, 
which

anyone may judge as they like.

regards
Georg


Sorry Georg,

I simply clicked your named anchor for "CSS Expressions":
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_02_01.html#item3

And it took me to a section from which your note was not visible.

I won't debate your personal preference versus mine - they both can 
achieve good results if handled properly. CSS expressions as 
advertised sometimes on this list lead to slutions that are not clear 
about quirks mode versus standards mode and can easily cause a 
recursive loop in IE 6 - freezing the browser.


It's good that you posted back and clarified.

Thanks for that.

Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".



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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Al Sparber wrote:

From the site you linked:


"As it is now, these expressions can only be made to work in 
IE5.0+/win, and only in quirks mode. This at least give us a mean to 
overcome some of IE/win's shortcomings with regard to W3C's CSS 
standards as they are."


This is wrong. I would question anything else he writes on CSS 
Expressions because of the above statement.


You may question everything I write whenever you like, but maybe you
should read a bit further first (same page):
"Also, only stable in quirks mode (see above), although variants can be
made to work in IE6's "standard" mode."
(pardon my Norwenglish)

I prefer quirks mode as I find it much easier to make IE6 behave like a
browser that way. Also, I see no reason to complicate things by having
to fix IE5+/win in two modes. It's a personal preference thing, which
anyone may judge as they like.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Al Sparber]

From: "David Laakso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Bingo!




From the site you linked:


"As it is now, these expressions can only be made to work in 
IE5.0+/win, and only in quirks mode. This at least give us a mean to 
overcome some of IE/win's shortcomings with regard to W3C's CSS 
standards as they are."


This is wrong. I would question anything else he writes on CSS 
Expressions because of the above statement.


Our site is full of CSS expressions working in standards mode. Here is 
but one:


http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/pagepacks/bartlett/bart_2col_fluid_v_01.htm

Good luck ;-)

Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".



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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[David Laakso]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:37:05 -0400, Kelly Miller  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


You CAN use expressions to dodge around some of IE's support problems.   
I thought there was some discussion about adding expressions to CSS, and  
note that if the user has Javascript disabled or security at a certain  
level, expressions won't be run.

Bingo!

Regards,
David Laakso
--
http://www.dlaakso.com/

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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Alexander Khost wrote:
I recently found a CSS expression hack for IE's lack of min-width 
support.


Welcome to the club...

...and IE-expressions can do a lot more than simulate min-width.

Does anyone know if there is currently or are future plans for 
starting a cross-browser version of CSS expressions?


They never made it out of MSIE-land, and they probably never will.

Otherwise can anyone explain why expressions are a bad thing and 
should be avoided?


Probably because they add too much 'behavior' to CSS, which most think
should be left to ordinary javascript.

At first glance, they seem quite intriguing and useful (if only for 
ways around IE's lack of standards support).


Agreed (since IE/win is so weak on real CSS).

regards
Georg
--
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Re: [css-d] CSS Expressions

[Kelly Miller]

Alexander Khost wrote:


I recently found a CSS expression hack for IE's lack of min-width support.

Does anyone know if there is currently or are future plans for
starting a cross-browser version of CSS expressions? Otherwise can
anyone explain why expressions are a bad thing and should be avoided?

At first glance, they seem quite intriguing and useful (if only for
ways around IE's lack of standards support).

Thank you,

Alexander Khost
http://www.deliciousdemon.com
201-709-1470
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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You CAN use expressions to dodge around some of IE's support problems.  
I thought there was some discussion about adding expressions to CSS, and 
note that if the user has Javascript disabled or security at a certain 
level, expressions won't be run.


--
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[css-d] CSS Expressions

[Alexander Khost]

I recently found a CSS expression hack for IE's lack of min-width support.

Does anyone know if there is currently or are future plans for
starting a cross-browser version of CSS expressions? Otherwise can
anyone explain why expressions are a bad thing and should be avoided?

At first glance, they seem quite intriguing and useful (if only for
ways around IE's lack of standards support).

Thank you,

Alexander Khost
http://www.deliciousdemon.com
201-709-1470
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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