Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Aug 20, 2008, at 2:57 AM, Bill Brown wrote:

> Aside from the W3C pages, the CSS-D wiki and this list, where do you  
> go
> for information about CSS?

> For the more senior members of this list, what would you consider the
> absolute worst practices, and conversely, the best practices?


Coming late to the party…

Resources that haven't been mentioned: the HTML validator (extremely  
important to have a valid document/DOM tree to work with) and CSS  
validator (syntax checking).

The other resources I use: www-style mailing list and archive, the  
specs (!) - and take some time to read the errata to the specs,  
developer drafts of upcoming specs.

Under best practices, Georg made a good summary.
- Again, take time to read (and read again and again) the specs.
- Kiss: keep your stylesheets and selectors simple
- Understanding and make use of the cascade

worst practices:
- copy/paste a method/layout/trick/hack/ without taking even the  
minimum of time to understand; because someone said it fixed 'it' for  
him/her.
- reset.css

> Wow--you read this far down, eh?
> Thanks again!
Why, yes :-)
It looks like a quite extensive seminar. Good luck with it.

> David, thanks for your input. I'd love to chat more, but I'm  
> rebuilding
> my entire site so that all the content is created with the Yahoo JS
> Library with a Flash-based interface embedded in a Java applet. ;-)

Lol. Can't wait to see it. On my default browser with Java disabled,  
FlashBlock active and Yahoo JS blocked in my host file :-).
Couldn't resist…

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://l-c-n.com/





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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[Bill Brown]

david wrote:
> Make your HTML present the page information in a readable, usable (to a 
> basic extent) browser view without CSS and (IMHO) Javascript. Add as 
> little markup as possible to style it using as simple a set of CSS as 
> possible. Tweak until it provides the information in a functional and 
> usable way. Then explore the coin called progressive 
> enhancement/graceful degradation ...

Ah, how I love progressive enhancement.

> But, then, I'm kind of old-fashioned. I go to websites for information, 
> not for graphical whizbang cutting-edge doohickies. (Most of the most 
> useless/unusable websites I've ever encountered have been the home pages 
> of web design firms. They feel like they have to pull out every stop and 
> whistle, sometimes, and Devil take the usability!)

I agree. I think we get too many zealots from all camps:
 - Only CSS, No JS, Flash, images, ...text!
 - JS blows CSS away! Everything should be JS!
 - I can rule the world with Flash, Mr. Bigglesworth!

The bottom line is that these days, we can't afford to be a purist of
any kind, except when it comes to accessibility. That's the real point
of a website: putting information out there for people to /access/.

Seems obvious.

That need not mean that your site contain no images and no Flash or be
just a simple block of text. The wise and judicious use of any of these
technologies is justified, especially when implementing progressive
enhancement.

If the user supports CSS, give them the pretty layout.
JS? Here's some nifty GUI effects to make your stay nicer.
Flash? Here's a video about us and some fancy fonts.
No Images? Here's a text version of our header.
Screen Reader? Hey, look, all our image tags have alt attributes, etc.

I'm reminded of my acting days when I would meet method actors. That was
it; that was their only tool: the method. One trick ponies. Like a
mechanic who works on your car with only a hammer.

For me, I work with six tools: HTML, CSS, JS, PHP, MySQL and Apache. If
any one of those tools does the job better while improving and at least
not detracting from usability, then that's the right answer and I can't
afford to be religious about any of the other technologies.

I tend to be anti-Flash over and above anything else because it's
over-use and abuse on the internet has conditioned me to hate it. I
don't even install the plug-in anymore on any of my machines. It's a
failing though based on my previous statement, because it has a use and
ignoring it for spite doesn't help my clients who want to show videos on
some pages of their sites.

David, thanks for your input. I'd love to chat more, but I'm rebuilding
my entire site so that all the content is created with the Yahoo JS
Library with a Flash-based interface embedded in a Java applet. ;-)

Best Regards,
Bill


-- 
~~~
TheHolierGrail.com | MacNimble.com | Cyber-Sandbox.com | Anytowne.com
Bill Brown, Web Developer - "From dot concept to dot com since 1999"
"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a
faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and
has forgotten the gift. -- Albert Einstein
~~~
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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[Bill Brown]

David Hucklesby wrote:
> One more benefit to this, rarely mentioned, is that it makes writing
> of print styles almost trivial. 

Too true.

> Bill - Do please mention the importance of creating print styles.

It was on the syllabus, but covered in the Media Specific Styling
section and not Best Practices. I'll touch on it in both places because
I agree that it is important.

Thanks much, David.
--Bill


-- 
~~~
TheHolierGrail.com | MacNimble.com | Cyber-Sandbox.com | Anytowne.com
Bill Brown, Web Developer - "From dot concept to dot com since 1999"
"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a
faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and
has forgotten the gift. -- Albert Einstein
~~~
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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[Bill Brown]

Thierry Koblentz wrote:
> Hi Bill,
> I don't see in your list "stacking context/z-index", so I'd like to suggest
> this link as a resource:
> http://tjkdesign.com/articles/z-index/teach_yourself_how_elements_stack.asp
> Also, when it comes to image replacement, I think this one came late and is
> not in the popular old lists of "Image Replacement Techniques":
> http://tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp
> And since you list "frames" among the topics, I thought I should plug that
> one too ;)
> http://tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/default.asp
> Good luck with the conference.
> PS: btw, I've listed your site on
> http://tjkdesign.com/misc/friends_and_colleagues.asp; I don't thing that
> should be a problem, but since I'm sending you this email, I thought I'd
> ask...

Hi Thierry,

Three excellent resources, and ones I've referred to in the past. I also
agree with your simplified hooks advice from the last email, an email I
wanted to respond to but hadn't gotten the chance. Also agree on the
removing superfluous css rules.

This is a week long conference. My first session is a four hour (!)
session before the conference begins. My syllabus has grown to be
perhaps a bit ambitious for such a short session, but a quick look at
many government sites (here in the United States at least) shows a great
need for a much fuller implementation of good css. I plan to pack in as
much as I possibly can and to provide comprehensive printed and online
resources for later reference.

Ambitious, yes, but after half a look at the sites online today, I think
the need has become critical. To be honest, though, the length of this
syllabus probably stems more from my obsessive compulsive desire for
comprehensive preparedness. I just don't want to be caught standing
around for an hour and a half with nothing more to add about css.

Being added to your list of friends and colleagues is an honor. I've
also added you to my List of Notables on TheHolierGrail.com (right above
Peter-Paul Koch), though I plan to revamp THG within the next few weeks,
so the location and look might change soon.

In any event, thank you for both your emails. Over and above any online
resource or book, I think the greatest resource for someone working with
css (and websites in general) is this list. Your advice, experience and
willingness to offer your input prove that you are an important part of
the usefulness of this list.

Thank you (and everyone who offered resources) for freely offering
access to your knowledge, experience and general good nature.

Best Regards,
Bill


-- 
~~~
TheHolierGrail.com | MacNimble.com | Cyber-Sandbox.com | Anytowne.com
Bill Brown, Web Developer - "From dot concept to dot com since 1999"
"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a
faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and
has forgotten the gift. -- Albert Einstein
~~~
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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[David Hucklesby]

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:24:31 -1000, david ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Alan Gresley wrote:
>
>> Best:
>>
>> a. Avoiding complicating your CSS and HTML with non necessary code. Less is 
>> better.
>>
>
> Make your HTML present the page information in a readable, usable (to a basic 
> extent)
> browser view without CSS and (IMHO) Javascript. [...]

One more benefit to this, rarely mentioned, is that it makes writing
of print styles almost trivial. 

Bill - Do please mention the importance of creating print styles.

Cordially,
David
--

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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[Thierry Koblentz]

> If you're willing, I'm looking for answers to these two questions:
> 
> Aside from the W3C pages, the CSS-D wiki and this list, where do you go
> for information about CSS?

Google - which 90% of the time returns pages from sites that have been
already posted as resources. 

> For the more senior members of this list, what would you consider the
> absolute worst practices, and conversely, the best practices?

This type of markup:



Home 
About
Us
Services



Extra wrapper and extra hooks (navItem and navLink could be left out and the
ID on links should be moved to the LIs).
If the wrapper is needed for some reason, at least the UL should be ID-less.

imo, best practice is to keep everything simple, making sure things make
sense; and to think "markup *and* CSS", not just CSS.
Also to use properties only when they are needed (I'm thinking of things
like: div {display:block;}). 

> Many, many thanks in advance.
> Below, I've included my syllabus for those that are interested.
> NAGW: National Association of Government Webmasters
> Advanced CSS - Pre-Conference Session
>1.  Laying the Foundation
>   * DOCTYPE
>   * Standards
>   * Validation
>   * Does X Mark the Spot?
>   * Strict v. Transitional
>   * Bed and BReakfast Code
>   * CSS Reset
>2. CSS Frameworks
>   * The Debate
>   * The Holy Grail
>   * The Holier Grail
>3. Styling for Javascript
>   * External Style Sheets
>   * Class or Inline Style?
>4. HTTP Requests
>   * The Problem
>   * Caching In
>5. Rounded Corners
>   * Square Hole, Round Pegs
>   * With Images
>   * Without Images
>6. Sprite Backgrounds
>   * Creating Sprites
>   * Using Sprites
>   * More Caching In
>7. Tabbed Panels
>   * Ten Pounds of Stuff
>   * CSS Only
>   * A Little Javascript
>8. Vertical Centering
>   * Known Height
>   * Unknown Height
>9. Evil Takes Form
>   * Where Forms Went Wrong
>   * Beyond Your Control
>   * Making Due
>   10. Turning the Tables
>   * Never, Ever Use Tables...
>   * Except...
>   * Your Site is NOT Tabular Data
>   * Table Styles
>   11. On the Menu
>   * CSS:Hover Menus
>   * Whatever:Hover
>   * Bullet Replacement
>   * Definition Lists
>   * List Issues
>   12. Image Replacement Techniques
>   * Why?
>   * The Many...
>   * Many...
>   * Methods
>   * Problems
>   13. Drop Shadows
>   * Text Shadowing
>   * Box Shadows with Images
>   * Box Shadows without Images
>   14. Better Opacity
>   * The Problem
>   * The Solution
>   15. Style Families
>   * Layout
>   * Format
>   * Theme
>   * Forms
>   * Scripted Elements
>   16. Media Specific Styling
>   * Screen, Projection
>   * Print
>   * Handheld
>   * Media Queries
>   17. Browser Troubleshooting
>   * Bug v. Lack of Support
>   * FOUC
>   * IE Background Image Caching
>   * The IE Toolkit
>   * Conditional Comments
>   * Why I Won't Hack
>   18. Best Practices
>   * Semantic v. Pedantic
>   * CSS Signature
>   * Minifying
>   * Shorthand Syntax
>   * TRouBLed Borders
>   * LVHFA
>   * Zero is Zero
>   19. Things to Avoid
>   * body{font-size:12px}
>   * body{line-height:12px}
>   * class=big-red-left
>   * Bad Tags
>   * Frames??!!
>   * #d1 #d2 #d3 #d4 #d5 {margin:0}
>   * "It works in IE!?"
>   20. CSS 3 Promises and Problems
>   * All This Exciting Stuff...
>   * Borders
>   * Backgrounds
>   * Color
>   * Text Effects
>   * User Interface
>   * Selectors
>   * Basic Box Model
>   * Generated Content
>   * Other Modules
>   * ...That We Can't Use
>   21. Custom Troubleshooting
>   22. CSS Resources
>   * CSS-D Wiki
>   * CSS-D Archives
>   * CSS3
>   * W3C
>   * The Web Developer's Handbook
>   * The Holier Grail
>   * Eric Meyer
>   * CSS Optimiser
>   * Multiple IE
>   * Position Is Everything
>   * Stylegala
> 
> Wow--you read this far down, eh?

How long does that conference last? Because that's a lot of ground to cover
:)


-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com




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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[david]

Alan Gresley wrote:

> Best:
> 
> a. Avoiding complicating your CSS and HTML with non necessary code. Less 
> is better.

Make your HTML present the page information in a readable, usable (to a 
basic extent) browser view without CSS and (IMHO) Javascript. Add as 
little markup as possible to style it using as simple a set of CSS as 
possible. Tweak until it provides the information in a functional and 
usable way. Then explore the coin called progressive 
enhancement/graceful degradation ...

But, then, I'm kind of old-fashioned. I go to websites for information, 
not for graphical whizbang cutting-edge doohickies. (Most of the most 
useless/unusable websites I've ever encountered have been the home pages 
of web design firms. They feel like they have to pull out every stop and 
whistle, sometimes, and Devil take the usability!)

-- 
David
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
authenticity, honesty, community
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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[Bill Brown]

Alan Gresley wrote:
> Good luck, you will learn plenty about CSS by there questions. ;-)

Thanks, Alan.
--Bill
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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[Alan Gresley]

Bill Brown wrote:
> Hello Listers.
> 
> I consider myself a junior member of this list, but one of my great joys
> is taking time during the day to respond to the questions submitted
> here. I've been asked to give a presentation on Advanced CSS for an
> upcoming conference and have what I think is a fairly comprehensive
> syllabus.


Good luck, you will learn plenty about CSS by there questions. ;-)


> Aside from the W3C pages, the CSS-D wiki and this list, where do you go
> for information about CSS?


David had listed many sites but you may wish to add my site or my test 
pages to the list. Eventually it should be quite a large CSS resource.


> For the more senior members of this list, what would you consider the
> absolute worst practices, and conversely, the best practices?


Best:

a. Avoiding complicating your CSS and HTML with non necessary code. Less 
is better.
b. Allowing the default values of elements to help with the layout of a 
document.
c. Using the semantic nature of elements in the layout of a document.
d. Waiting for the implementation of CSS3 for those fancy effects.
d. Off-line testing of all the above over and over.


The worst practices is opposite to the best practices.

[...]
>   * CSS Reset


Apart from mentioning resets also talk about why resets were done in the 
first place. This was to reset most if not all UA Default Style sheets 
values [1] when IE5~IE6 was the most common used browsers. Many of the 
senior members on this list do not use CSS resets.


[...]
> Wow--you read this far down, eh?
> Thanks again!
> --Bill
> 


Reading is good sometimes. :-)


1. 


-- 
Alan http://css-class.com/

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's 
character, give him power - Abraham Lincoln

Save the Internet - http://www.savetheinternet.com/
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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[Maggie Wolfe]

> Aside from the W3C pages, the CSS-D wiki and this list, where do you go
> for information about CSS?

Hi Bill:

I have quite a large collection of CSS links you can go through here:
http://www.diigo.com/user/naturegeek/CSS

They are multiply tagged, so if you are looking for CSS that is also tagged
"standards," for example, click on related tags:
http://www.diigo.com/user/naturegeek/CSS+standards

Or you can check out some of my lists of resources:
http://www.diigo.com/list/naturegeek/web-standards-and-semantics
http://www.diigo.com/list/naturegeek/accessibility
Or
http://www.diigo.com/list/naturegeek/css-hacks-and-filters

Anyway, most of the links are to sites that have been mentioned already, but
are to specific pages within those sites.

I hope those are helpful!  Best of luck on the presentation.

Maggie Wolfe Riley


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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Bill Brown wrote:

> Aside from the W3C pages, the CSS-D wiki and this list, where do you 
> go for information about CSS?

Apart from what's dripping in from everywhere, these are on my
short-list at the moment...




> For the more senior members of this list, what would you consider the
>  absolute worst practices, and conversely, the best practices?

Worst:
1: copying without understanding.
2: choose or disregard solutions because someone else says so, and not
because the solutions turn out to be strong or weak.

Best:
1: take time to learn, understand, and then copy and "steal" whatever is
in sight that might be useful, regardless of whether it's needed at the
moment or not, and run it through rigorous tests before storing the
valuable parts where they are easy to find.
2: test ones own solutions to destruction and well beyond, and learn
from mistakes.
3: practice, practice, practice ... the best ones always practice more.

> [...]

> Wow--you read this far down, eh?

Sure ;-)

regards
Georg
-- 
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[David Laakso]

Bill Brown wrote:
> Aside from the W3C pages, the CSS-D wiki and this list, where do you go
> for information about CSS?
>
>   





The laundrymat.

Rarely, among other, some of these houses of ill repute:













Quasimodo
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Re: [css-d] CSS Resources

[Jim Davis]

Here is a good css reference:

http://reference.sitepoint.com/css

Jim
www.jimdavis.org
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[css-d] CSS Resources

[Bill Brown]

Hello Listers.

I consider myself a junior member of this list, but one of my great joys
is taking time during the day to respond to the questions submitted
here. I've been asked to give a presentation on Advanced CSS for an
upcoming conference and have what I think is a fairly comprehensive
syllabus.

There is however, one area which is still lacking and I'm hoping some of
you might be willing to help. Over the years of traveling back and forth
to Africa, Pennsylvania and Rhode Island and backing up date between a
myriad of computers, I've lost a good deal of my collection of resources.

If you're willing, I'm looking for answers to these two questions:

Aside from the W3C pages, the CSS-D wiki and this list, where do you go
for information about CSS?

For the more senior members of this list, what would you consider the
absolute worst practices, and conversely, the best practices?

On a side note, I'm not being paid for presenting at the conference, so
it's not like you'd be helping me make a mint or anything. Additionally,
if you consider this post off-topic, please accept my apologies and
disregard.

Many, many thanks in advance.
Below, I've included my syllabus for those that are interested.
--Bill

NAGW: National Association of Government Webmasters
Advanced CSS - Pre-Conference Session
   1.  Laying the Foundation
  * DOCTYPE
  * Standards
  * Validation
  * Does X Mark the Spot?
  * Strict v. Transitional
  * Bed and BReakfast Code
  * CSS Reset
   2. CSS Frameworks
  * The Debate
  * The Holy Grail
  * The Holier Grail
   3. Styling for Javascript
  * External Style Sheets
  * Class or Inline Style?
   4. HTTP Requests
  * The Problem
  * Caching In
   5. Rounded Corners
  * Square Hole, Round Pegs
  * With Images
  * Without Images
   6. Sprite Backgrounds
  * Creating Sprites
  * Using Sprites
  * More Caching In
   7. Tabbed Panels
  * Ten Pounds of Stuff
  * CSS Only
  * A Little Javascript
   8. Vertical Centering
  * Known Height
  * Unknown Height
   9. Evil Takes Form
  * Where Forms Went Wrong
  * Beyond Your Control
  * Making Due
  10. Turning the Tables
  * Never, Ever Use Tables...
  * Except...
  * Your Site is NOT Tabular Data
  * Table Styles
  11. On the Menu
  * CSS:Hover Menus
  * Whatever:Hover
  * Bullet Replacement
  * Definition Lists
  * List Issues
  12. Image Replacement Techniques
  * Why?
  * The Many...
  * Many...
  * Methods
  * Problems
  13. Drop Shadows
  * Text Shadowing
  * Box Shadows with Images
  * Box Shadows without Images
  14. Better Opacity
  * The Problem
  * The Solution
  15. Style Families
  * Layout
  * Format
  * Theme
  * Forms
  * Scripted Elements
  16. Media Specific Styling
  * Screen, Projection
  * Print
  * Handheld
  * Media Queries
  17. Browser Troubleshooting
  * Bug v. Lack of Support
  * FOUC
  * IE Background Image Caching
  * The IE Toolkit
  * Conditional Comments
  * Why I Won't Hack
  18. Best Practices
  * Semantic v. Pedantic
  * CSS Signature
  * Minifying
  * Shorthand Syntax
  * TRouBLed Borders
  * LVHFA
  * Zero is Zero
  19. Things to Avoid
  * body{font-size:12px}
  * body{line-height:12px}
  * class=big-red-left
  * Bad Tags
  * Frames??!!
  * #d1 #d2 #d3 #d4 #d5 {margin:0}
  * "It works in IE!?"
  20. CSS 3 Promises and Problems
  * All This Exciting Stuff...
  * Borders
  * Backgrounds
  * Color
  * Text Effects
  * User Interface
  * Selectors
  * Basic Box Model
  * Generated Content
  * Other Modules
  * ...That We Can't Use
  21. Custom Troubleshooting
  22. CSS Resources
  * CSS-D Wiki
  * CSS-D Archives
  * CSS3
  * W3C
  * The Web Developer's Handbook
  * The Holier Grail
  * Eric Meyer
  * CSS Optimiser
  * Multiple IE
  * Position Is Everything
  * Stylegala

Wow--you read this far down, eh?
Thanks again!
--Bill

-- 
~~~
TheHolierGrail.com | MacNimble.com | Cyber-Sandbox.com | Anytowne.com
Bill Brown, Web Developer - "From dot concept to dot com since 1999"
"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a
faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and
has forgotten the gift. -- Albert Einstein
~

[css-d] CSS Resources

[Gabriele Romanato]

http://www.css-zibaldone.com/risorse/

skip the italian writings. there are about 2957 useful links on 'bookmarks'.
bye :)

ernie

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http://www.css-zibaldone.com/
http://mimicry.css-zibaldone.com/
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