Re: [css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Jason Crosse wrote:
> I know I'm OT here, but I find that easier than black on white. 
> Actually, my default is set as #333 on #ccc, but I sit close to the 
> screen and sometimes have to change that depending on ambient light.

I don't think you're all that much OT here, because you bring in factors
that CSS is often (or more or less all the time) used to adjust our
designs for.

The potential problem with this and many such design-adjustments, is
that users may have already adjusted their own hardware and software to
suit their preferences or needs, and it will work well on most web sites
too - except on sites where the designers impose too many corrections
for what they experience on their own equipment, onto visitors.

CSS provides us with the means to make numerous adjustments to a web
document, whether it is to improve things for the user, getting a
certain design-balance, or because the designers' equipment and settings
are less than optimal and CSS is used to adjust for that. Equipment and
settings are literally "all over the place", so factors like light and
contrast are pretty wide-ranged at all ends.

Thus, it is good that users can "defend themselves" against author
styles, and it is even better if designers have a fairly good idea what
may happen when users use such "defensive powers" and make reasonably
sure their creations survive in a usable way despite such "defenses".

> Are there any readability studies out there on this topic? I know, 
> for example that it's harder for dyslexics to read black on white 
> than a lower contrast combination.

Try asking that question on , or
maybe on .

You'll probably end up with a wide range of answers, even if you find a
somewhat reliable study on the subject.

regards
Georg
-- 
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Jason Crosse]

On 05/03/2008 02:26, Felix Miata wrote:
> According to Philippe's response it
> looks like FF3 will provide some sorely need defensive power for the inane
> presumption that color: #333 is preferable to #000 on background-color: #FFF.

I know I'm OT here, but I find that easier than black on white. 
Actually, my default is set as #333 on #ccc, but I sit close to the 
screen and sometimes have to change that depending on ambient light.

Are there any readability studies out there on this topic? I know, 
for example that it's harder for dyslexics to read black on white 
than a lower contrast combination.
-- 
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Re: [css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Felix Miata]

On 2008/03/04 20:11 (GMT-0500) Rob Emenecker apparently typed:

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> Anyone have any insight on why the specs don't provide such a capability?

> Insight? No. But, to me common sense dictates that if you don't want an item
> styled, then you don't style it to begin with.

Those who have replied to my question so far have failed to take into account
that the page author's CSS is not the ultimate authority on styles applicable
to any given page, element, class or id. According to Philippe's response it
looks like FF3 will provide some sorely need defensive power for the inane
presumption that color: #333 is preferable to #000 on background-color: #FFF.
-- 
"Let us not love with words or in talk only.
Let us love by what we do." 1 John 3:18 NLV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/
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[css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Rob Emenecker]

> Anyone have any insight on why the specs don't provide such a capability?

Insight? No. But, to me common sense dictates that if you don't want an item
styled, then you don't style it to begin with.

Now in this case someone is asking for a "default" style, however my gut
reaction is that they don't truly comprehend that "default" varies based on
browser and user settings (as Jukka pointed out). 

My "guess" is that if you styled a button based on the "default" style OF
THEIR BROWSER they would be satisfied. I find it hard to believe that one
user/manager/whomever would actually test the button on multiple browsers
and platforms in a side-to-side comparison with an 
that is in a bare XHTML page.

...Rob


Rob Emenecker @ Hairy Dog Digital
www.hairydogdigital.com
 

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Re: [css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Mar 5, 2008, at 2:04 AM, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

> There is no way to "undo" things in CSS in general. You can override a
> setting for a property by setting it to a specific value, but you  
> cannot
> tell browsers to apply their defaults, against any settings that might
> exist elsewhere in stylesheets.

CSS 3, the 'initial' keyword as value for (any) property: uses the UA  
defaults.
That is implement for nearly all properties in FX 3b (with the the - 
moz- prefix).
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#keywords
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/CSS:initial
(won't help the OP...)

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://l-c-n.com/




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Re: [css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Michael Adams]

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:10:57 -0600
Jack Timmons wrote:

> Jukka,
> 
> I had a spelling error in "borders"; it is incorrect, but is just an
> example.
> 
> And simply put, she wanted an easy method for saying "I don't want
> this button to have any of the previous global formatting applied to
> it."
> 

Using an ID on an element such as a button lets you compose CSS for that
element independant from the rest of the website.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=css+specificity+tutorial

It could also be that i have totally misread your needs.

-- 
Michael

All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall
be well

 - Julian of Norwich 1342 - 1416
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Re: [css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Felix Miata]

On 2008/03/04 19:04 (GMT+0200) Jukka K. Korpela apparently typed:

> There is no way to "undo" things in CSS in general. You can override a 
> setting for a property by setting it to a specific value, but you cannot 
> tell browsers to apply their defaults, against any settings that might 
> exist elsewhere in stylesheets.

Anyone have any insight on why the specs don't provide such a capability?
-- 
"Let us not love with words or in talk only.
Let us love by what we do." 1 John 3:18 NLV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/
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Re: [css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Scott Sauyet wrote:

> We could try to reset every property to its defaults, but I wouldn't
> recommend it.

Neither would I, especially since it would _not_ undo the formatting.

If by "defaults" you mean initial values as specified in CSS specs, then 
the idea fails, even in principle, because
a) not all initial values are fixed (e.g., font-family is 
browser-dependent)
b) initial values need not be the same as browser defaults, and they 
very often aren't for form fields.

If you mean "browser defaults", then the idea fails because we don't 
know them, in a reliable way.

Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ 

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Re: [css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Scott Sauyet]

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
> There is no way to "undo" things in CSS in general. You can override a 
> setting for a property by setting it to a specific value, but you cannot 
> tell browsers to apply their defaults, against any settings that might 
> exist elsewhere in stylesheets.

We could try to reset every property to its defaults, but I wouldn't 
recommend it.  There are also Javascript techniques for this, such as

 http://labs.gandrew.com/drupal/files/forcestyle.js.txt

But I think other posters are correct that you really need to apply your 
formatting more selectively rather than try to remove it later.

Good luck,

   -- Scott
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Re: [css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Jack Timmons]

Jukka,

I had a spelling error in "borders"; it is incorrect, but is just an
example.

And simply put, she wanted an easy method for saying "I don't want this
button to have any of the previous global formatting applied to it."

I truly understand that global formatting like that is erroneous, but
because I try to be a good guy, I offered to ask you all, since to my
knowledge there was no way.

-Jack Timmons

On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Jukka K. Korpela <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> That sounds odd and may cause rather unpredictable results (especilly if
> you actually have "border", not "borders", which does not exist in CSS),
> unless you have rules that set backgrounds and borders for input
> elements that need them.
>
> I beg your pardon? That would involve something external to CSS, either
> client-side or server-side scripting.
>
> Or do you mean that he or she wants to have a submit button _for which_
> some previously formatting is not applied?
>
> There is no way to "undo" things in CSS in general. You can override a
> setting for a property by setting it to a specific value, but you cannot
> tell browsers to apply their defaults, against any settings that might
> exist elsewhere in stylesheets.
>
> Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ 
>
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Re: [css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Jack Timmons wrote:

> Because of the way this site I work with and the CSS was coded, we
> have a statement like:
>
> input {background: none;borders: none;}

That sounds odd and may cause rather unpredictable results (especilly if 
you actually have "border", not "borders", which does not exist in CSS), 
unless you have rules that set backgrounds and borders for input 
elements that need them.

> A coworker wishes to have a submit button that removes any of the
> previous formatting done.

I beg your pardon? That would involve something external to CSS, either 
client-side or server-side scripting.

Or do you mean that he or she wants to have a submit button _for which_ 
some previously formatting is not applied?

There is no way to "undo" things in CSS in general. You can override a 
setting for a property by setting it to a specific value, but you cannot 
tell browsers to apply their defaults, against any settings that might 
exist elsewhere in stylesheets.

Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ 

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Re: [css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Geoffrey Hoffman]

The C in CSS stands for Cascade. It's inherently designed to, uh, cascade.

Though it makes your life more difficult, I think your best bet may be to
declare all your rules with explicit selectors:

e.g. for every other thing on the page, do...

#path .to .item input { }

...not just a blanket...

input { }

otherwise the main rule overrides.
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[css-d] Quickly Removing Formatting from an Element

[Jack Timmons]

Hey all,

While I'm sure this isn't possible, for the sake of harmony in the workplace
I'm posing this problem:

Because of the way this site I work with and the CSS was coded, we have a
statement like:

input {background: none;borders: none;}

A coworker wishes to have a submit button that removes any of the previous
formatting done. I can't think of a method to do so (namely because I use
selective formatting and should never need to undo formatting like that). If
any of you have an example, line etc I'd appreciate it. Maybe I'll learn
something new!

-Jack Timmons
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