Re: [css-d] Width blowout in IE

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Mark Lundquist wrote:
> On Mar 7, 2007, at 1:53 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

>> [sufficiently-detailed explanation snipped...]

Minor but important correction: it was an attempt on a 'description' -
not an 'explanation'. I can't really 'explain' that IE bug - it's one of
the really absurd[2] ones :-)

> Wow!  I had no idea it was that subtle... but I guess it should come
> as no surprIsE :-/

You got _that_ right ;-)


As a general note:

Shouldn't come as a surprise that bugs related to this, and to other
(more or less) well-known IE6 shortcomings and bugs, may pop up in IE7
too. The reason is that IE7 to a large degree isn't a "fixed"
Trident[1], but instead a "patched up" 'Trident in standard mode'.
All bugs are kept, because IE7 otherwise wouldn't work as expected in
'quirks mode'.
So, IE/win's "addiction to bugs" is permanent, and IE7's "patches" are
not very solid or complete.

regards
Georg

[1] Trident - the engine behind IE4+ on windows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_(layout_engine)

[2]http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/molly_1_15.html
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Re: [css-d] Width blowout in IE

[Mark Lundquist]

On Mar 7, 2007, at 1:53 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

> Guess one _can_ describe IE's behavior that way, but your understanding
> of this 'auto-expansion' bug is still too weak to leave it at that.
>
> [sufficiently-detailed explanation snipped...]

Wow!  I had no idea it was that subtle... but I guess it should come as 
no surprIsE :-/

thx :-),
—ml—
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Re: [css-d] Width blowout in IE

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Mark Lundquist wrote:
> [...]

> Something along those lines?

Guess one _can_ describe IE's behavior that way, but your understanding
of this 'auto-expansion' bug is still too weak to leave it at that.

Both the bug and the fix are complex - and neither makes no sense
outside IE6, so the following description will be just as complex and
"sense-less" :-)


1: IE6 does *not* treat 'width' as 'min-width' in any real sense, so
'width' can't be used as a substitute for 'min-width' in that bugger.

Part of IE6' problem is that it doesn't treat 'overflow: visible'
(default or declared) at all. IE6 can't overflow properly.
IE6 treats _all_ elements as if they were _partly_ under HTML table
rules, where 'width' *is* and should be treated as 'min-width' and where
'overflow' is ignored.

2: IE6 *does* treat 'width' under conditions like yours as: "you can't
be serious - the content doesn't fit so I'm going to ignore you".
You'll see that - completely unlike 'min-width' in a good browser - the
otherwise normal-width content inside an 'auto-expanded' container
doesn't fill the extra width provided by the bug, so it's only the
'auto-expanded' container itself that has become too wide.



So, we have basically these options:
a} make IE6 respect given 'width' by adding 'overflow: hidden' or
'overflow-x: hidden' on the container. This will make IE6 respect
'width', but the overflowing parts of "too wide" children will of course
be hidden and we will have to make them visible again.

b) make the "too wide" child be narrow enough not to create a
"pushing-effect". This works fine, but restricts what we can put into
that child and how we want it to appear.

c) make the "too wide" child _appear to be_ narrow enough not to create
a "pushing-effect". All browsers are calculating the horizontal
width-space needed for or occupied by an element based on where its
outer margins are. Thus, if we "pull back" the 'backside margin', the
element will take up less space.



I used a variant of c), but it's one that only works because IE6 is
buggy and other browsers respect 'width' on the container regardless of
what I do to its children. I could therefore "pull back" the right
margin on the relative-positioned #footer and get the effect I wanted in
IE6.


I mentioned that the whole thing "makes no sense", didn't I :-)
You can read more about IE6' 'auto-expansion' bug here...



...and then you can try to figure out how wide IE6 thinks the sloping
line of "dead herrings" is in this page...



The essential CSS parts of that sloped line is in the page-head, and you
should make the browser-window /really/ narrow to see the slope extend
beyond both sides of the center-column, and even beyond the entire page.


regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Width blowout in IE

[Mark Lundquist]

On Mar 6, 2007, at 4:55 PM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

> Add...
>
> #footer {margin-right: -25px;}
>
> ...to avoid IE's 'auto-expansion' bug.

Perfect, thanks!   I think you spoon-fed me a fix for a problem that 
was substantially like this one, a couple of months ago... but I didn't 
really understand it, and so I didn't remember it.

I guess what is happening is that Exploiter essentially treats 'width' 
like 'min-width', thereby nullifying 'overflow: visible', right?  So 
now we're going to say "OK, and by the way this thing needs to have 
negative 25px of space from its right border to the next-rightmost 
element" — which in this case is the container.  In other words, we're 
constraining the container's right border to actually come in to the 
left of the footer's right border, making Exploder scroonch the 
container width back down to the size we want.

Something along those lines?

—ml—
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Re: [css-d] Width blowout in IE

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Mark Lundquist wrote:
> Anybody? :-)

Sure.

>> dev.hearthstone.wd-2.net

Add...

#footer {margin-right: -25px;}

...to avoid IE's 'auto-expansion' bug.
I don't think that addition will disturb other browsers, so shouldn't
need to hack it in.

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] Width blowout in IE

[Mark Lundquist]

Anybody? :-)

thx,
—ml—

On Mar 4, 2007, at 8:50 PM, Mark Lundquist wrote:

> OK... this layout is almost done, thx to everyone who's helped me 
> out...:
>
>   dev.hearthstone.wd-2.net
>
> The only thing left is that gray footer sort of thing.  In Exploder, 
> it... well, it blows up :-(.  You can see what I'm shooting for in 
> Firefox or Safari, which do the right thing.  I'm relying on the 
> default "overflow: visible", and IE won't play ball.
>
> Any ideas how to work around this?
>
> thx,
> —ml—
>

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[css-d] Width blowout in IE

[Mark Lundquist]

OK... this layout is almost done, thx to everyone who's helped me 
out...:

dev.hearthstone.wd-2.net

The only thing left is that gray footer sort of thing.  In Exploder, 
it... well, it blows up :-(.  You can see what I'm shooting for in 
Firefox or Safari, which do the right thing.  I'm relying on the 
default "overflow: visible", and IE won't play ball.

Any ideas how to work around this?

thx,
—ml—

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