RE: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not
I would try to make your design as hack-free as possible, as suggested already by many. Since (most) browsers are developing all the time, you run the risk that a hack maybe solved in a future version of a browser. Using a hack to abuse the behaviour of a browser is almost-guaranteed a temporary solution, because behaviour that causes the need for a hack is nothing more than a bug, and bugs are solved. To prevent you from having to redo your design, because a hack was up or outdated, it's in my opinion best not to use any. Arno __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not
On 23/08/05, Haoshiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... This is generally regarded as a *bad* thing because tables are for tabular data only but the fact of the matter remains that they do *work* and are generally rendered close to the same way across browsers common browsers. ... With one difference - considering that using tables for layout is hack and using CSS hacks differs, because in CSS case you keep your hacks away from your HTML code. And CSS hacks do work to. On the other hands I think they are hugely overestimated, it is possible to go mostly hack-free. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not
Ok, this is my next question in my learning quest. To use hacks or not to use hacks. There are so many of them out there that it is a bit confusing. And with so many to learn it gets a bit frustrating. How do you remember all of them? do you keep a cheat sheet near you? My mind is sort of boggled right now with so much reading etc.. So any links that could be provided, that really explain things good, would be so appreciated. I just bought the CSS Hacks and Filters book, and must say it is a good companion should the need of a hack occur (and it does as you will get the CEO with IE5.0 installed as the sole browser). Generally I try to avoid them though. http://www.wait-till-i.com/index.php?p=139#more-139 __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not
4css wrote: Not to pick on Al at all. It's just that this topic has been known to reach Holy War status. I'd rather not see that on the list. Very messy. I would prefer that it not go that way, Newbies dont' learn when this happens, all I am requesting is **information** for myself and others who are learning. I know you are asking for information, but the thing is, there is no right answer to your question. That's why it usually results in a holy war, and why we've referred you to the existing information. Almost everyone agrees that you should use hacks as sparingly as possible, but beyond that, there is no agreement. People even differ in what they consider a hack to begin with. So, I'd encourage everyone to add their opinions and methods to the wiki pages that were already mentioned, if your POV is not covered there already. That helps us build a better resource for all of our subscribers and keeps messy things from happening on the list. Zoe -- Zoe M. Gillenwater Design Specialist UNC Highway Safety Research Center http://www.hsrc.unc.edu __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not
Deb, Personally I would recommend *against* using hacks at all. Conditional Comments and behaviors should be able to get you past the really problematic IE issues. In my experience many of the compatibility issues across browsers is caused by the lack of complete CSS standards support in current browsers. In these cases many layout issues can actually be solved by using a table or two in your layout. Trying to force CSS standards on browsers that were not originally designed with them as a high priority using hacks is a worse practice, in my opinion, then using a few layout tables. This is generally regarded as a *bad* thing because tables are for tabular data only but the fact of the matter remains that they do *work* and are generally rendered close to the same way across browsers common browsers. Conditional Comments: http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp Behaviors: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dhtmltechcol/dndhtml/IE5behave.asp Regards, Haoshiro 4css wrote: Ok, this is my next question in my learning quest. To use hacks or not to use hacks. There are so many of them out there that it is a bit confusing. And with so many to learn it gets a bit frustrating. How do you remember all of them? do you keep a cheat sheet near you? My mind is sort of boggled right now with so much reading etc.. So any links that could be provided, that really explain things good, would be so appreciated. 4~CSS!!! aka Deb http://directory.css-styling.com http://fmsforum.debsplace.org A site in progress: http://debsplace.org __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
RE: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not
Deb, I'm in total agreement with Haoshiro. Hacks are just that - hacks. Its like using a screwdriver to hammer in a nail. A lot of them didn't work for me either. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Haoshiro Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 4:05 PM To: 4css Cc: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org Subject: Re: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not Deb, Personally I would recommend *against* using hacks at all. Conditional Comments and behaviors should be able to get you past the really problematic IE issues. In my experience many of the compatibility issues across browsers is caused by the lack of complete CSS standards support in current browsers. In these cases many layout issues can actually be solved by using a table or two in your layout. Trying to force CSS standards on browsers that were not originally designed with them as a high priority using hacks is a worse practice, in my opinion, then using a few layout tables. This is generally regarded as a *bad* thing because tables are for tabular data only but the fact of the matter remains that they do *work* and are generally rendered close to the same way across browsers common browsers. Conditional Comments: http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp Behaviors: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dhtmltechco l/dndhtml/IE5behave.asp Regards, Haoshiro 4css wrote: Ok, this is my next question in my learning quest. To use hacks or not to use hacks. There are so many of them out there that it is a bit confusing. And with so many to learn it gets a bit frustrating. How do you remember all of them? do you keep a cheat sheet near you? My mind is sort of boggled right now with so much reading etc.. So any links that could be provided, that really explain things good, would be so appreciated. 4~CSS!!! aka Deb http://directory.css-styling.com http://fmsforum.debsplace.org A site in progress: http://debsplace.org __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not
Al Lemieux wrote: Deb, I'm in total agreement with Haoshiro. Hacks are just that - hacks. Its like using a screwdriver to hammer in a nail. A lot of them didn't work for me either. to the OP, most hacks are documented in the wiki- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssHack whether you use them or not is personal preference. My personal opinion, is that if you come to the point where you need to use a hack to get by, perhaps you should re-consider your design. I code hack free. And that includes the box model hack. I see no need for it. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not
Thanks Al and Haoshiro. I really appreciate your replies. I have come across the conditional statments, and did use them in the beginign of my playing with css. I have just recently purchased Lowery's book, CSS Hacks and Filters, and didn't really realize how many of them are out there! 4~CSS!!! aka Deb http://directory.css-styling.com http://fmsforum.debsplace.org A site in progress: http://debsplace.org __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not
Hi Adam, thanks for the links, I will flag this email and make use of it. I have seen the links on the Wiki, and wished to know of more if they are out there, good ones that is. snip Not to pick on Al at all. It's just that this topic has been known to reach Holy War status. I'd rather not see that on the list. Very messy. I would prefer that it not go that way, Newbies dont' learn when this happens, all I am requesting is **information** for myself and others who are learning. I would be totally disapointed in a war breaking out over a question for help ;) Thanks Again Adam, 4~CSS!!! aka Deb http://directory.css-styling.com http://fmsforum.debsplace.org A site in progress: http://debsplace.org __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
RE: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not
Al Lemieux wrote: I'm in total agreement with Haoshiro. Hacks are just that - hacks. Its like using a screwdriver to hammer in a nail. A lot of them didn't work for me either. May I suggest that this topic is covered sufficiently on the Wiki? Please see these pages: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ToHackOrNotToHack - discusses this exact topic of whether or not to hack at all http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssHack - links to detailed discussions of many hacks and their possible shortcomings http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CategoryBrowserBug - links to various bug resource sites http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=GoodCSSHack - attempts to define whether or not a CSS hack is good http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=AvoidingHacks - suggests workaround methods that avoid true hacks Not to pick on Al at all. It's just that this topic has been known to reach Holy War status. I'd rather not see that on the list. Very messy. Thanks, -- -Adam Kuehn CSS-D List Moderator __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
