Re: [css-d] IE 6 layout issues

[David Bailey]

On 08/05/2009, at 3:51 AM, Alan Gresley wrote:

> David Laakso wrote:
>>
>> Alan,
>> I wonder if he is referring to the white space beneath Tobias in
>> compliant browsers in an 800 window, or in any width window when the
>> fonts are scaled; and that this white space also appears beneath  
>> Tobias
>> in IE/8 and down, regardless of the widow width? In other words, is
>> Tobias supposed to resting at the bottom bar regardless of window  
>> size
>> or user font preference?
>
>
> Oh I see now (not a IE6 bug). Thank you David.
>
> It's collapsing margins from the list at the bottom of the content.  
> They
> collapse through to div##rightColumn_hp since the image of Tobias is a
> float. The fix is to zero out that bottom margin.
>
>
> #rightColumn_hp ul {
>   margin-bottom:0;
> }

Thanks for this. I used this to fix the gap between the image and the  
stripe at the bottom in IE. Can you explain what has happened here?  
There was obviously some inheritance issue that I'm not seeing; but  
I'd like to understand.

In the meantime, as suggested by a few others, I have used absolute  
positioning as others have suggested to solve the problem.

Thanks again for looking into this; I greatly appreciate not only the  
opportunity to solve the issues, but also to learn!

Regards,
David
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Re: [css-d] IE 6 layout issues

[David Bailey]

Hi Georg,

Thanks so much for all the effort you have gone to to help! This is  
not only helpful, but highly instructive.

I do have a couple of questions...

On 08/05/2009, at 5:23 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

> David Bailey wrote:
>
>> http://www.widemannviolins.com/index.php
>
> Suggestion:
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
>
>> 1. Text content:
>
> a: Do not declare backside margins on the #rightColumn_hp float, as it
> then becomes wider than 100% when IE's faulty percentage calculation
> kicks in.
>
> b: absolute position the .hp_img.

In your stylesheet, you have reference to:

#rightColumn_hp {
float: right;
width: 80%;
margin: 50px 0 0 0;
text-align: left;
position: relative;
clear: both;
}

Something I was unaware of was that you can float a div as well as  
position it relatively! I notice that relative positioning doesn't  
have any position stated - is that because it is floated? Can you  
explain what is actually happening (or point me to somewhere that I  
can come to grips with this concept? I can see also, that the  
relative positioning allows the image to then be absolutely  
positioned at the bottom of the #rightColumn (something I was having  
trouble with when I tried to absolute position the image in the first  
place).

>
>> 2. Stripes:
>
> Stiffen up #footer with a hasLayout trigger.
Thanks. Several others have mentioned this too, and I've refreshed  
myself about the hasLayout issues and done as you (and others) have  
suggested.
>
>> 3. The Main Nav bar text:
>
> One can hardly make IE6 render like FF or Safari, but it can be  
> prettied
> up a bit by adding em-width and other trimming. IE6/7 also needs help
> with correct stacking of absolute positioned elements - the dropdowns.
> I've included the most basic fixes in the suggestion above, compare  
> with
> what you've got and implement as you like.
This css is largely the result of (with minor modifications) of  
WebAssist's CCSMenuWriter. Thanks for your help.

> Also included min-width fix for IE6, in case you want that.
Thanks for that--most useful. Is there anywhere I can find out an  
explanation of what you have done here?

The real problem I have with the menu bar in IE and the fact that I  
have to stipulate a width for each menu item in pixels rather than  
auto is that in order for the text to fit with reasonable spacing  
between each menu item, I have to give it 100px width. Unfortunately,  
this creates the problem of the menu bar dropping a line when the  
window is narrowed or viewed at 800x600.

You can see what I mean when comparing the original spacing (which is  
still seen in your example with 80px width)  and what I have up presently in  
http://www.widemannviolins.com . FF and Safari are fine, as I can use  
auto for the width.

Is anyone able to supply any kind of solution to this?

Thanks so much for your help,
David
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Re: [css-d] Div not expanding

[Christopher Kip]

On May 13, 2009, at 7:33 PM, Tim Snadden wrote:

>
> On 14/05/2009, at 11:58 AM, Christopher Kip wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Can't figure out how to get this to work.  I am at the point where I
>> just keep trying the same things which didn't work over and over--
>> argh...  I can not get the black container where the photos are to
>> expand properly to fit the content.  Any thoughts?
>>
>> http://chromacreative.com/testingserver/hawkeye/site/products-
>> leather.html
>>
>
> .screenwrapperB is set to position: absolute which means that it is  
> taken out of the document flow and creates no vertical space.
>
> If you remove the absolute positioning and height  
> from .screenwrapperB and remove the height from #viewercontainer it  
> should get you going in the right direction.
>
> If you give .screenwrapperB 'overflow: auto' it will contain the  
> floats and you will see the black background correctly.
>
> Also - validate your CSS! There are a couple of syntax issues.
>
> Cheers, Tim
>

Ah -- that would be my problem then.  In order for the image  
thumbnails to swap out the main viewer image that div has to be  
positioned absolute.  Dang...  Back to the drawing board.  Thanks!
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Re: [css-d] IE 6 layout issues

[Alan Gresley]

David Bailey wrote:
> 
> On 08/05/2009, at 3:51 AM, Alan Gresley wrote:
[...]
>> #rightColumn_hp ul {
>> margin-bottom:0;
>> }
> 
> Thanks for this. I used this to fix the gap between the image and the 
> stripe at the bottom in IE. Can you explain what has happened here? 
> There was obviously some inheritance issue that I'm not seeing; but I'd 
> like to understand.
[...]
> 
> Regards,
> David


That was a fluke of a fix. At the time I was still trying to visualize 
what each container was doing. All I did was remove the bottom margin of 
the last child element of div#rightColumn_hp. The content of this div 
was actually *overflowing*. Georg actuality took more time to analyze 
the code and thus provided the perfect fix. See next message.


BTW, there was no collapsing of margins. Margins of child elements do 
not collapse inside floated elements which div#rightColumn_hp was.


-- 
Alan http://css-class.com/

Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo
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[css-d] wrong alignment/shift of one div, only in Safari

[B. de Nijs]

Hello,

in IE6 and 7 all looks fine now, so I am really a bit puzzled what it  
might be that  in Safari I've a large shift  to the right (in fact a  
div is right-aligned though I havent's set it like this...)

example URL:


stylesheet:
http://www.fettig-herkel.de/css/za_herkel_basic.css

div in question:
the second somewhat header div below logo and phone number that holds  
a blue text claim and on the right a six-part-photographic

it's css:
#claimgrafikbox {
width: 850px;
height: 100px;
padding: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-right: 0px;
margin-top: 110px;
margin-left: 50px;
position:fixed; 
z-index: 0;
}

can somebody help me here, please?

bye,
beate






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Re: [css-d] IE 6 layout issues

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

David Bailey wrote:

> Something I was unaware of was that you can float a div as well as 
> position it relatively! I notice that relative positioning doesn't 
> have any position stated - is that because it is floated? Can you 
> explain what is actually happening (or point me to somewhere that I 
> can come to grips with this concept?

Relative positioning adds a few factors to the mix.
1: the element becomes a reference/base for absolute positioned children.
2: the element can be visually offset, something I haven't made use of
so no positions are needed.
3: the element can be stacked out of order (towards foreground or
background) relative to other elements. That's not needed either in this
case, so no z-index.
4: most of IE6's stacking bugs are counteracted, stabilizing the element
visually in old IE. This is not a universal cure for IE6's bugs, so each
case must be well tested to make sure other IE bugs are not triggered.

> I can see also, that the relative positioning allows the image to 
> then be absolutely positioned at the bottom of the #rightColumn 
> (something I was having trouble with when I tried to absolute 
> position the image in the first place).

That's what I used it for, see 1: above.

>> Also included min-width fix for IE6, in case you want that.
> Thanks for that--most useful. Is there anywhere I can find out an 
> explanation of what you have done here?

See: 

> The real problem I have with the menu bar in IE and the fact that I 
> have to stipulate a width for each menu item in pixels rather than 
> auto is that in order for the text to fit with reasonable spacing 
> between each menu item, I have to give it 100px width. Unfortunately,
>  this creates the problem of the menu bar dropping a line when the 
> window is narrowed or viewed at 800x600.

> Is anyone able to supply any kind of solution to this?

In the 'menu_ie.css' stylesheet add/change to...

ul#cssmw li { margin: 0 4px 0 0 ;}
ul#cssmw li span a {width: 10px;}
#navbar {margin-left: 18%;}

...and things will improve a bit at normal font size in IE6. Font
resizing will cause drop at narrow width in all browsers, and there's no
use trying to avoid/prevent that.

The above works in IE6 because that browser has no respect for declared
dimensions and will expand the li until the content fits inside. Usually
that buggy behavior causes problems, bet here we're turning that bug to
our advantage.

regards
Georg
-- 
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [css-d] wrong alignment/shift of one div, only in Safari

[David Laakso]

B. de Nijs wrote:
> Hello,
>
> in IE6 and 7 all looks fine now, so I am really a bit puzzled what it  
> might be that  in Safari I've a large shift  to the right (in fact a  
> div is right-aligned though I havent's set it like this...)
>
> example URL:
> 
>
> stylesheet:
> http://www.fettig-herkel.de/css/za_herkel_basic.css
>
> div in question:
> the second somewhat header div below logo and phone number that holds  
> a blue text claim and on the right a six-part-photographic
>
> it's css:
> #claimgrafikbox {
>   width: 850px;
>   height: 100px;
>   padding: 0px;
>   margin-bottom: 0px;
>   margin-right: 0px;
>   margin-top: 110px;
>   margin-left: 50px;
>   position:fixed; 
>   z-index: 0;
> }
>
> can somebody help me here, please?
>
> bye,
> beate
>
>
>
>   



#claimgrafikbox { border: 1px solid red;
position:fixed; <-- :: delete 
(confuses Safari/Camino) ::
}







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Re: [css-d] IE 8

[Vincent Pollard]

(N.B. I know this thread is OLD but I just wanted to share my experience
on this) 

I used to love using Multiples IES but I have seen several instances
over the past two years where Multiples IEs gave us a different result
from 'real' IE6.
I no longer use it as it was so misleading at times. I run VMs now to
check IE6. It's more cumbersome but at least I can trust it.

-Original Message-
From: css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org
[mailto:css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Wheeler
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 7:11 PM
To: CSS-D List
Subject: Re: [css-d] IE 8


On 05/05/2009, at 5:25 AM, Court Kizer wrote:

> I recommend staying away from multiple IE I can think of 20 instances
> where it will render different from a machine with the real thing.
> Virtualiin is free.

I have asked for documented proofs of this before and so far have  
received none! Not even sample URL's. I would appreciate more details  
on those "20 instances".

So far MultipleIE for ie 5, 5.5 and 6, with ie8 handling 7 (in  
compatability mode) and 8 appears to be working as well as (or as  
badly as) ie *ever* works. And MultipleIE is free too.

KathyW.
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[css-d] positioning images on a background graphic

[Anthony L]

Is not that big a problem, but I am seeing a shift in the images when
viewing the page on IE windows.

I know: big surprise.

Basically, I have a container div and then an unordered list where
each list item is an image.

Here's the relevant css :

#container {
background:blue;
width: 735px;
height: 500px;
margin: auto;
background: url(banner_back.jpg) no-repeat;
}

ul {
list-style: none;
padding-top: 240px; /* to move the list into position on the
background graphic */
padding-left: 75px;

}

li
{
float: left;
margin: 0 0.15em;
}   

img {
border-style: none;
}

a {
border: none;
}

and here is a link to the page ...
http://liberto.info/cssplay/fromWork/migration_rollover/migration_opacity_tests_part_b.html

Another thing that perplexes me is that if I a margin-left value to
the ul instead of padding-left the images are placed correctly in IE
and then are shifted in Firefox.

Can anyone tell me which IE bug I am missing ?

Thanks :-)
Tony
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Re: [css-d] positioning images on a background graphic

[Erik Vorhes]

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Anthony L  wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me which IE bug I am missing ?
>


It's the dreaded double-margin float bug, I bet. Add

display: inline;

to your  styles and you should be good to go.

Erik
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Re: [css-d] positioning images on a background graphic

[David Laakso]

Anthony L wrote:
> Is not that big a problem, but I am seeing a shift in the images when
> viewing the page on IE windows.
>
>
> and here is a link to the page ...
> http://liberto.info/cssplay/fromWork/migration_rollover/migration_opacity_tests_part_b.html
>
> Another thing that perplexes me is that if I a margin-left value to
> the ul instead of padding-left the images are placed correctly in IE
> and then are shifted in Firefox.
>
> Can anyone tell me which IE bug I am missing ?
>   


There is no "bug" that I am aware of. Putting borders around elements 
will often show where you are going wrong.
This CSS will bring IE 6/7/8 on board with FF, Safari, Opera.


html, body {margin: 0 padding: 0;}

#container { border: 1px solid blue;
width: 735px;
height: 500px;
margin: auto;
background: url(arrow_files/banner_b.jpg) no-repeat;
}

ul {
border:1px solid red;
overflow: hidden;
list-style: none;
/*padding-top: 240px; to move the list into position on the background 
graphic */
padding: 0;
margin: 248px 0 0 80px;
width:515px;
}

li
{
float: left;
margin: 0 0.15em;
}

img {
border-style: none;
}

a {
border: none;
}

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Re: [css-d] positioning images on a background graphic

[Erik Vorhes]

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 2:51 PM, David Laakso
 wrote:
>
> There is no "bug" that I am aware of.
>

Actually, the following CSS does trigger the IE 6 doubled-margin float bug:

> li
> {
> float: left;
> margin: 0 0.15em;
> }

For details on this phenomenon, see
.

The workaround is to apply "display: inline;" to the floated element.
Because floated elements are always treated as block elements, this
declaration has no side-effects in any standards-compliant browser.
And it will get rid of the extra space on the sides of your floated
 elements.

Erik
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Re: [css-d] css-d Digest, Vol 78, Issue 11

[peter . twiggs]

I am currently out of the office and will return on Thursday the 14th of May.
If you have any urgent queries please contact Steve Lee on 0113 391 2929.

Regards
Peter


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Re: [css-d] positioning images on a background graphic

[David Laakso]

Erik Vorhes wrote:
> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 2:51 PM, David Laakso
>  wrote:
>   
>> There is no "bug" that I am aware of.
>>
>> 
>
> Actually, the following CSS does trigger the IE 6 doubled-margin float bug:
>
>   
>> li
>> {
>> float: left;
>> margin: 0 0.15em;
>> }
>> 
>
> For details on this phenomenon, see
> .
>
> The workaround is to apply "display: inline;" to the floated element.
> Because floated elements are always treated as block elements, this
> declaration has no side-effects in any standards-compliant browser.
> And it will get rid of the extra space on the sides of your floated
>  elements.
>
> Erik
>
>   



re: 


Anthony, the original poster, has followed your advice as of this writing.
He has included display:inline; on the li. Follow the above url and note 
your suggestion does not fix IE/6. Nor does it fix IE/7.

What I suggested is not the only way to correct the problem.  But it 
does work in IE/8, FF, Opera, and Safari.  IE/6 and IE/7 go along for 
the ride without issue.
Please see:


~d












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Re: [css-d] positioning images on a background graphic

[Erik Vorhes]

>
> re:
> 
>
> Anthony, the original poster, has followed your advice as of this writing.
> He has included display:inline; on the li. Follow the above url and note
> your suggestion does not fix IE/6. Nor does it fix IE/7.
>
> What I suggested is not the only way to correct the problem.  But it does
> work in IE/8, FF, Opera, and Safari.  IE/6 and IE/7 go along for the ride
> without issue.
> Please see:
> 


I apologize, I didn't know that Anthony had attempted my proposed fix.
Sorry it didn't work!
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Re: [css-d] IE 6 layout issues

[David Bailey]

On 15/05/2009, at 3:51 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

> David Bailey wrote:
>> Something I was unaware of was that you can float a div as well as  
>> position it relatively!
> Relative positioning adds a few factors to the mix...

That all makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

>>> Also included min-width fix for IE6, in case you want that.
>>  Is there anywhere I can find out an explanation of what you have  
>> done here?
> See: 

That's excellent. I've looked through and also bookmarked it. It  
certainly helps to make IE work as it does in FF and Safari. I guess  
the very fact we have to make special style sheets for IE in the  
first place shows we are having to take special steps to incorporate  
this ubiquitous but recalcitrant browser in its various versions, so  
I can see an argument for using MS's proprietary expressions when  
needed.

>
>> The real problem I have with the menu bar in IE and the fact that  
>> I have to stipulate a width for each menu item in pixels rather  
>> than auto...
>>  this creates the problem of the menu bar dropping a line when the  
>> window is narrowed or viewed at 800x600.
>
> In the 'menu_ie.css' stylesheet add/change to...
> ...and things will improve a bit at normal font size in IE6.
> The above works in IE6 because that browser has no respect for  
> declared
> dimensions and will expand the li until the content fits inside.  
> Usually
> that buggy behavior causes problems, bet here we're turning that  
> bug to
> our advantage.

That's excellent--almost the same as it appears in Safari! I can see  
what you have done using that IE bug. This is most helpful in seeing  
how to think in terms of what cards we've been dealt and turn it to  
good!

> resizing will cause drop at narrow width in all browsers, and  
> there's no
> use trying to avoid/prevent that.
Yes, I was aware and happy with that.  I'm personally happy with  
allowing menus to collapse, as ugly as that may at times look, but it  
does allow for resizing of text for readability. The site owner,  
however, didn't want the menu bar to collapse, hence the min-width,  
for which your work-around has suited well.

I am very grateful for the help I've received, and have learned a lot  
from this.

Regards,
David
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Re: [css-d] positioning images on a background graphic

[Anthony L]

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Erik Vorhes  wrote:
>>
>> re:
>> 
>>
>> Anthony, the original poster, has followed your advice as of this writing.
>> He has included display:inline; on the li. Follow the above url and note
>> your suggestion does not fix IE/6. Nor does it fix IE/7.
>>
>> What I suggested is not the only way to correct the problem.  But it does
>> work in IE/8, FF, Opera, and Safari.  IE/6 and IE/7 go along for the ride
>> without issue.
>> Please see:
>> 
>
>
> I apologize, I didn't know that Anthony had attempted my proposed fix.


Hi both,

Sorry, I made the change and didn't have to opportunity to test it in
IE ... that was why I hadn't replied yet ...

.
> This CSS will bring IE 6/7/8 on board with FF, Safari, Opera.

Thanks for the tip.
I've added the code and it looks OK in FF and Safari on OSX ... I
can't check on a Win box before later this morning when I get to work.
A question though: I thought the 1px border was just for debugging ...
But if I comment out the #container border, the button images shift
right to the top of the div ... any idea why?

thanks again,
Anthony
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Re: [css-d] IE 8

[Kathy Wheeler]

On 15/05/2009, at 4:28 AM, Vincent Pollard wrote:
> I used to love using Multiples IES but I have seen several instances
> over the past two years where Multiples IEs gave us a different result
> from 'real' IE6.


I've seen 'real' IE6's on two different machines give different  
results to each other :-(
I really wish it would just go away so we didn't have to worry about  
it, self-destruct or something.

KathyW.
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Re: [css-d] IE 8

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Kathy Wheeler wrote:
> I've seen 'real' IE6's on two different machines give different 
> results to each other :-(

Change one or more settings in IE6, and get another result...

Same goes for all browsers, so if one wants to know the outcome at the
user-end one better test with a whole range of options and setting
combinations in each browser. Testing only at default or with ones own
or someone else's preferred settings in a browser, don't really tell much.

regards
Georg
-- 
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [css-d] positioning images on a background graphic

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Anthony L wrote:
> A question though: I thought the 1px border was just for debugging
> ... But if I comment out the #container border, the button images
> shift right to the top of the div ... any idea why?

Collapsing margins...




The easiest solution is to add...

#container {
padding: 1px 0;
}

...as replacement for the border. Other solutions/options are listed in
the W3C article.

regards
Georg
-- 
http://www.gunlaug.no
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