Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- MJ: Government should serve ONLY to provide ALL individuals protection fron FORCE and FRAUD ... certainly that should take closer to 5% of one's earnings rather than 50% plus. Edward Britton wrote: This would be fine, but how would the government "know" whom to protect inasmuch as there is a significant portion of our population with no political voice. Therefore this governmental attribute you hold so dear becomes a defense mechanism for the elite. Hence the present chasm, in this nation, between the have's and the have-not's. MJ: Not at all ... Jefferson identified Natural Rights in the Declaration of Independence. THIS -- an individual's RIGHT to his OWN life -- is the standard for our moral nation AND for a free society. If the government merely upheld this standard by protecting ALL ... your emotive concerns regarding 'haves' and 'have-nots' (whatever that might entail) has no bearing. What you describe above is what we are currently saddled -- a government which has exceeded the limitations imposed upon it ... utilizing its monopoly of legalized force to 'grow' its power. In exchange for votes, the G takes money from productive citizens and redistributes it to the elderly for instance. May I recommend: Frederic Bastiat _The Law_ http://www.bomis.com/cgi-bin/ring.cgi?page=2ring=bastiat MJ: For the Government to 'care for' or 'provide for' these urban outdoorsmen (who are reaping the net result of the CHOICES they made) it must first TAKE from others. How is this 'fair' to those 'gripers' you describe above? Edward Britton wrote: A) How do the mentally impaired fall under your rubric of "reaping the net result of the choices they make"? How do those families--specifically children-- displaced by economic down-turns fall under the rubric of "net result of choice"? B) It is fair by nature of the fact that the aforementioned gripers reap a disproportionately large benefit from life in this society. MJ: A. The 'mentally impaired' are the responsibility of the parents that freely chose to procreate. A2. If one had a TRUE concern for children they would REVERSE the current course for their care -- supplying THEM to the means rather than the means to their irresponsible parents. B. ANYONE can benefit from a FREE society (which ours certainly is NOT at current) MJ: Throwing around emotives like 'Social Darwinists' ... if one has the RIGHT to survival ... he has the RIGHT to enslave another for such a purpose. Edward Britton wrote: "Social Darwinism" is hardly an emotive and hardly a term that I coined. It refers to a general belief in the social equivalent of survival of the fittest. Such a doctrine is fine in feudal systems, but once a social system has been formed for the mutual benefit of all (civilization), such doctrines become antiquated--or would if not revived by those of rightist bent. Choose one: feudal system or civilization (representative democracy or otherwise) and be willing to pay the price for your decision. MJ: How exactly does one with a desire for treating every person to the SAME standard equate to 'social darwinism'? I do not subscribe to the 'strawman' attempts you assert above ... I merely believe EACH and EVERY individual has a RIGHT to their OWN life with Government serving its legitimate function by subjagating FORCE to this standard. [note I have ONLY addressed someone FORCING another to aid in THEIR cause -- the ideal of charity has NOT been broached.] MJ: Yes, this is typical ... blame *ANYONE* but one's self. Who -- exactly --made those choices which placed you in the predicament? Edward Britton wrote: In this/my case, you are partially correct. I was to blame for not having adequately prepared myself financially (at nineteen, such concepts were sort of abstract :-)). My employer took it from there by downsizing me during the initial stages of Reagan's "trickle-down" economy. MJ: More emotive chichés ... which are truly meaningless. Need I LIST the various choices you made which placed you in your dilemma? Do you believe one has the RIGHT to a job? MJ: When one is free to make his own decisions, how is it another's fault when the results prove deficient? Edward Britton wrote: This is the key deficiency in the understanding of those of rightist affiliation: a great many people fall prey to circumstances beyond their control, and well outside the realm of choice. One can stretch the philosophy of "blame the victim" only so far before the argument becomes rediculous. MJ: 'Blame the victim' ... ??? There is a powerful craving in most of us to see ourselves as instruments in the hands of others and thus free ourselves from the responsibility for acts which are prompted by our own questionable inclinations and
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- MJ: For the Government to 'care for' or 'provide for' these urban outdoorsmen (who are reaping the net result of the CHOICES they made) it must first TAKE from others. How is this 'fair' to those 'gripers' you describe above? People are left with little when a government, or anyone else, steals, 'legally' or not. Such 'taking' as you call it is no more wrong than 'murder' of someone who intends to murder YOU. I'm guessing you talk little with such 'urban outdoorsmen.' MJ: Throwing around emotives like 'Social Darwinists' ... if one has the RIGHT to survival ... he has the RIGHT to enslave another for such a purpose. Edward Britton wrote: "Social Darwinism" is hardly an emotive and hardly a term that I coined. It refers to a general belief in the social equivalent of survival of the fittest. Such a doctrine is fine in feudal systems, but once a social system has been formed for the mutual benefit of all (civilization), such doctrines become antiquated--or would if not revived by those of rightist bent. Choose one: feudal system or civilization (representative democracy or otherwise) and be willing to pay the price for your decision. MJ: How exactly does one with a desire for treating every person to the SAME standard equate to 'social darwinism'? I do not subscribe to the 'strawman' attempts you assert above ... I merely believe EACH and EVERY individual has a RIGHT to their OWN life with Government serving its legitimate function by subjagating FORCE to this standard. Yet you seem in favor of government using it's force to protect those that use force. [note I have ONLY addressed someone FORCING another to aid in THEIR cause -- the ideal of charity has NOT been broached.] Granted, such forced charity serves few, in the long run. However, don't you think the government is 'up to' things that require addressing more than forced equity? MJ: Yes, this is typical ... blame *ANYONE* but one's self. Who -- exactly --made those choices which placed you in the predicament? Edward Britton wrote: In this/my case, you are partially correct. I was to blame for not having adequately prepared myself financially (at nineteen, such concepts were sort of abstract :-)). My employer took it from there by downsizing me during the initial stages of Reagan's "trickle-down" economy. MJ: More emotive chichés ... which are truly meaningless. Need I LIST the various choices you made which placed you in your dilemma? Do you believe one has the RIGHT to a job? One has the right to the opportunity. Such opportunities are killed when a government works in collusion to create certain negative images of a people or subculture. Such opportunities are killed when the government uses our tax dollars to import cocaine, sell it to street gangs to fund a political and military agenda that, again, serves THEM(AND provides yet another opportunity to propagate the image of certain peoples as negative). MJ: When one is free to make his own decisions, how is it another's fault when the results prove deficient? Edward Britton wrote: This is the key deficiency in the understanding of those of rightist affiliation: a great many people fall prey to circumstances beyond their control, and well outside the realm of choice. One can stretch the philosophy of "blame the victim" only so far before the argument becomes rediculous. MJ: 'Blame the victim' ... ??? There is a powerful craving in most of us to see ourselves as instruments in the hands of others and thus free ourselves from the responsibility for acts which are prompted by our own questionable inclinations and impulses. True. Both the strong and the weak grasp at this alibi. The latter hide their malevolence under the virtue of obedience: they acted dishonorably because they had to obey orders. The strong, too, claim absolution by proclaiming themselves the chosen instrument of a higher power -- God, history, fate, nation or humanity. -- Eric Hoffer MJ: Are you fearful of freedom? Edward Britton wrote: I am fearful of being run over by a system in which I have no representation. I guess it's a matter of choosing who and by what means should I be run over. MJ: If one is treated the SAME as all others ... how is this possible? Are we all treated the same? If so, no need to be on this list and be concerned with conspiracies. If not, your argument is baseless. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote: Granted, such forced charity serves few, in the long run. However, don't you think the government is 'up to' things that require addressing more than forced equity? There is no such thing as "forced charity." It is either charity, or its forced... Socialism is to altruism, what slavery is to servanthood. One has the right to the opportunity. Such opportunities are killed when a government works in collusion to create certain negative images of a people or subculture. Such opportunities are killed when the government uses our tax dollars to import cocaine, sell it to street gangs to fund a political and military agenda that, again, serves THEM(AND provides yet another opportunity to propagate the image of certain peoples as negative). Hey, I'm glad you identified the govm't as the primary destroyer of opportunities. Good going... There is a powerful craving in most of us to see ourselves as instruments in the hands of others and thus free ourselves from the responsibility for acts which are prompted by our own questionable inclinations and impulses. It may be a powerful craving in you... not me... If you are correct, and you may be, that would explain why there are more "have nots" than there are "haves." Both the strong and the weak grasp at this alibi. The latter hide their malevolence under the virtue of obedience: they acted dishonorably because they had to obey orders. The strong, too, claim absolution by proclaiming themselves the chosen instrument of a higher power -- God, history, fate, nation or humanity. -- Eric Hoffer Is this Eric Hoffer the Marxist Eric Hoffer? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- OK, all you social Darwinists out there (typically Republicans and Libertarians), passing laws to maintain your quaint little suburban status quos, it would be wise to remember a simple concept: "From the rage of today's downtrodden, comes the revenge of tomorrow's revolutionary force." Right now, it seems, cops and "citizens" are ahead. Keep an eye on the race, compassionless ones. Edward "In San Francisco last year, the police issued over 16,000 `quality of life' violation tickets -- most of them to homeless people. Police are taking photographs of people they claim are `habitual drinkers' ... and distributing them to liquor stores.'' Report Cites Harassment of Homeless []===[] "Go for goats, Bill. They don't talk." Yasser Arafat http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5285/connector1.html Talk to the planet. Subscribe to Reality Pump: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/Reality_Pump2 []===[] DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- All except you, Hawk; just keep your eyes closed. It may not hurt as much when the grand disillusionment comes. :-) Edward Right now, it seems, cops and "citizens" are ahead. Keep an eye on the race, compassionless ones. Barf Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om []===[] "Go for goats, Bill. They don't talk." Yasser Arafat http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5285/connector1.html Talk to the planet. Subscribe to Reality Pump: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/Reality_Pump2 []===[] DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: -Caveat Lector- All except you, Hawk; just keep your eyes closed. It may not hurt as much when the grand disillusionment comes. :-) Edward Come ahead... Lead the way... Happy Trails... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: -Caveat Lector- All except you, Hawk; just keep your eyes closed. It may not hurt as much when the grand disillusionment comes. :-) Edward Right now, it seems, cops and "citizens" are ahead. Keep an eye on the race, compassionless ones. Oh! how I wish you would be the leader of the pack! Come on, compassionate one. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- In San Francisco last year, in November, Mayor Willie Brown came under heated media pressure when an editorial was published in the Chronicle detailing one person's issue with the houseless in Golden Gate Park. Firstly, it's too bad that the mass mindset is such that when one becomes houseless one is filled with such shame that one feels the need to hide. Would you rather hide behind a dumpster in an alley or in some beautiful trees. Secondly, the editorial that I've mentioned spoke of someone's fear that they would be walking through the park and come across a needle or 'bump into some hooker.' This is obviously someone who has spend little time there. At this period of time, I was involved in a project that provided a daily meal to about two hundred houseless people per day and spent a good deal of time in the park DAILY. Never once did I ever see a hypodermic needle there, though addiction was rampant(maybe even a junkie has the consideration that many industrial polluters do not). As well, if you were a prostitute looking for a quick buck, the last place you are going to look for it is Golden Gate Park. The fact that the editorial seems to been more of a narration of someone's paranoid nightmare was lost and never addressed in the media. To save his public image with those who suck their reality from the media nipple, he had to act. If what Clinton has done warrants impeachment, then what ensued warrants sending Brown to the guillotine. For the following two weeks hundreds of houseless folks, if not thousands, were accosted by police , usually for doing nothing more than sitting in the park, and were manhandled, abused, and STOLEN FROM BY OUR 'PEACE OFFICERS!' Literally hundreds of houseless people with enough problems already wound up with NO BLANKETS. I personally witnessed dozens of occasions of houseless people having what little they owned STOLEN by police(GolfMartinez for instance), thrown into the trunks of publicly funded vehicles and carted off. These folks were left with little option and if I had been in their shoes I would have felt entirely justified stealing blankets from a household(if not slugging one of these pigs); those were chilly nights. Ethics such as 'thou shalt not steal' go right out the window when in a survival situation, as do many other ethics - ask any Vietnam veteran. What better scapegoat for society's ills than the defenseless. This shit goes on all over the country. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
