Re: [CTRL] Fwd: SNET: Child Abuse At Waco.
-Caveat Lector- This man had a shot out with the previous leader a previous leader who had actually run for president - in that run for president: I wonder what connections the previous leader had made? Were those children being groomed and sold? There are video tapes of "sermons" What other tapes might there be - that if the children had lived - they might have been identified in? Let us take this a step further - lawyers joined and gave him there wives - who married them to those women? What happened to those women? piper Prudence L. Kuhn wrote: -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 09/05/1999 3:10:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In this regard, let me emphasize that, despite what religious and social apologists say, any adult who grooms children to be his sex objects is sexually abusing those children. Sex between an adult and a child is abusive. Sex between an adult and an 11 or 12 year old child can not be consensual. The fact that the name of God and religion were used to obscure this exploitive and abusive practice make these activities even more heinous and destructive to the long term development of these children. \ I agree with you, and if what is written in your posting is true, then the authorities should have been charging this guy with child sexual abuse and putting him in jail. Why was the only reason for going after him something to do with weapons? For some reason or other, no one cared about the children even before they killed them. It was weapons that were important. Why didn't they simply pick this guy up from one of his jogs and charge him with his crimes? No matter how you slice it, nothing the Government (local or federal) makes any sense at all. Prudy -- Any person can stand adversity, The true test is to give a person power. If you treat a relationship as if you are the only one in it, eventually you will be. Atrocities happen when the people about you - start considering you surplus. "I tolerate with the utmost latitude the right of others to differ from me in opinion" Thomas Jefferson http://freeweb.digiweb.com/science_fiction/ThePiedPiper/~index.htm ICQ 14484977 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fwd: SNET: Child Abuse At Waco.
-Caveat Lector- Did Bruce Duncan or anybody in this group personally study the children at the Davidian homes? If not, this is all extrapolation based on speculation. Gavin. PRELIMINARY STATEMENT CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS ON WACO Bruce Duncan Perry, M.D., Ph.D. CIVITAS Child Trauma Programs A Partnership of: CIVITAS Initiative, Baylor College of Medicine and Texas Children's Hospital DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Fwd: SNET: Child Abuse At Waco.
- SNETNEWS Mailing List PRELIMINARY STATEMENT CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS ON WACO Bruce Duncan Perry, M.D., Ph.D. CIVITAS Child Trauma Programs A Partnership of: CIVITAS Initiative, Baylor College of Medicine and Texas Children's Hospital ABUSIVE CHILDREARING PRACTICES AT RANCH APOCALYPSE Destructive characteristics of this setting included undermining traditional parent-child relationships by David Koresh Attachments to parent figures were continually undermined and replaced with inappropriate dependence upon a central figure, David Koresh. Continuous undermining of other relationships, including sibling relationships, husband and wife relationships, and friendships was pervasive. Any attachment judged to be more important to an individual than the attachment to God or David was undermined. By 1992, these children were taught to view David Koresh as their father, and later, these children were taught to consider David as God (see slides). In the context of this evolving theology, Koresh's views became increasingly restrictive, unpredictable and harsh for the children living at Ranch Apocalypse (see Attachment 7). These children had a set of inappropriate and age-inappropriate behaviors and significant gaps in general understanding, reflecting the idiosyncratic teaching practices present in the compound. For example, very young children, including a six year old girl, knew an incredible amount about weapons, while they knew almost nothing about other common age-appropriate concepts. In one example, we had a room with a variety of toys, including a small bolt action toy rifle. Invariably, in the first visit to the room, each child first went over and picked up the rifle. In one interview, a young girl went over, picked up the rifle, pulled the bolt back, looked down the barrel and said with disgust, "This isn't a real gun." It is clear that these children were significantly traumatized by previous harsh and inappropriate disciplinary techniques including severe corporal punishment, extended isolation (overnight), severe food restrictions and separation from primary caretakers. These children were continually exposed to harsh, capricious, and humiliating disciplinary techniques. Children expected to be beaten for events such as spilling milk. Infants were severely spanked for 'misbehaving'. In addition, these children were threatened with death if they revealed aspects of life inside the compound to the 'non-believers'. As is typical when an abusive adult threatens a child, they were told that 'they will not understand our special ways'. These children were convinced that David Koresh would return from the grave and punish them if they betrayed the Davidians by interacting with, or disclosing to, the 'bad guys' (law enforcement, non-believers, 'Babylonians'). Koresh was exploitive and manipulative of these children and exposing them to a variety of inappropriate sexual content -- such as graphically describing intercourse and sexual 'technique' in his hours-long sermons where children were present. Furthermore, the girls were socialized to believe that sex with Koresh, by age 12 (and earlier), was normative, appropriate, and, indeed, desirable -- being part of God's plan as revealed to David. All of the young girls were being prepared to be David's wives and that was a healthy and desired position to be in. One of the older girls expressed distress, now that she had been released from the compound, that she would not be able to be picked by David as one of his brides. Clear and compelling disclosure of sexual abuse of a 10 year old child by David Koresh was obtained during this time. This child had left the compound in the year prior to assault. The nature of the disclosure, the content and detail of the abuse all were very consistent with the content of sexual beliefs which were shared with our team by many of the 21 released children. These children were significantly exploited, manipulated and exposed to a variety of inappropriate experiences and deprived of other normative experiences. These children were very rarely given the opportunity to be independent and when they did make any independent decisions about any aspect of their lives, including things as small as choosing what they would eat, who they would sit next to at dinner or choosing what clothes they would wear, David Koresh would periodically challenge, provoke and demand that they change what they were doing -- for example, he would demand that someone eat only potatoes for the next three days. Because of the lack of opportunity to make independent decisions about even minor aspects of their lives, these children experienced significant abnormalities in areas of functioning which are globally called ego function. This includes things such as sense of self, self-esteem, dependence/independence and abstract thinking. This was illustrated by a poignant series of drawings by one child (see slides). SUMMARY In summary, our work
[CTRL] Fwd: SNET: Child Abuse At Waco (2)
- SNETNEWS Mailing List
APPENDIX VIII
Issues Relating to Physical, Sexual and Emotional Abuse and Neglect in the
Koreshian Children
Bruce D. Perry, M.D., Ph.D.
Associate Professor and Vice-Chairman for Research, Psychiatry and Behavioral
Sciences
Chief of Psychiatry, Texas Children's Hospital
Director, Post-traumatic Stress Disorders Clinical Research Team, Houston VAMC
Baylor College of Medicine
April 26, 1993
CIVITAS ChildTrauma Programs
A Partnership of:
CIVITAS Initiative,
Baylor College of Medicine
and Texas Children's Hospital
1. Physical Abuse
a. Allegations: Former 'members' of this group have described corporal
punishment of young infants to the point of bleeding. Some ex-members
describe public physical discipline. In addition, previous CPS contacts with
David Koresh indicated that physical discipline ('squeezing or holding them
tight') of infants began at 8 months. We are not aware of reports of
physically assaultive behaviors outside of the context of discipline.
b. Preliminary Findings: During the first two weeks outside the compound,
several of the girls were noted to have circular lesions (approx. 1 inch in
diameter and healing) at the base of their spines/top of their buttocks.
These were initially described by the children as resulting from 'falling
down'. Soon, however, at least one of the girls acknowledged that the lesion
was from being paddled with the 'Helper" by her mother (see Appendix I). No
other physical evidence of potential physical abuse was observed in the 21
children released from the compound.
History was obtained from several of the children that mothers and
occasionally David physically paddled the children that were unable to comply
with the rules of the compound. One of the children most frequently
disciplined by David was among those released. The children were open about
being disciplined with the Helper. There was an expectation that they would
be physically disciplined for minor behavioral or social infractions. History
was obtained which described physical punishment for children unwilling to
participate in staged 'fights'. The context of these fights is not clear,
however, it appears that adults (frequently David) encouraged fighting
between the children as part of their paramilitary training. Children
refusing to fight or fight hard were paddled. It was the opinion of the
treatment group that full disclosure regarding these practices was not made.
One of the parents released from the compound described how 'well the
children acted' even by age 1 because they knew what 'the Helper' was.
Several of the children mentioned dead babies. They made the statement that
dead babies were kept in the freezer until they could be buried (or burned).
There was an ongoing secretive quality to these occasional allusions to
births, dead babies, miscarriages, storage of dead babies in the freezer,
burning bodies, a ceremony with a male baby underwater and other incomplete
and unformed stories. When any of the children mentioned theses subjects,
there was some group monitoring, some censoring and avoidance of disclosing
any more information. The relationship of these issues to potential physical
abuse is unclear at this point.
Behavioral observation of the children in the first few weeks suggested that
these children had come from an environment which employed severe physical
punishment for behavioral control. Initially, the children expected to be hit
when they did things as minor as spilling milk. Later, without the external
threat to force compliance, these children began to have difficulties with
behavioral acting out and compliance with directives. It became apparent that
the initial observations of these children being 'well behaved' was not a
manifestation of internalized ideas, cognitions or motivations regarding
interactions with others but was motivated by fear of punishment.
c. Conclusions: Independent of external reports regarding excessive physical
punishment, our team found some physical evidence, significant historical
reporting and clear behavioral and emotional functioning consistent with an
excessive style of corporal punishment. This alone, however, does not
necessarily comprise evidence of physical abuse required for state
intervention beyond guidance regarding more appropriate styles of discipline.
2. Sexual Abuse
a. Allegations: The press and ex-members of this group have described that
David Koresh had multiple 'wives'. This list of wives includes girls from age
12-16. All of the sexual abuse allegations we are aware of involve David
Koresh and the girls living in the compound. We are unaware of any
allegations regarding sexual activities with the boys in this group. We are
unaware of any allegations of other adults participating in sexual activities
with the children except as knowing that this occurred with children and
David.
b. Preliminary Findings: No physical evidence of sexual abuse was observed in
these children. Indeed, the
Re: [CTRL] Fwd: SNET: Child Abuse At Waco.
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 09/05/1999 3:10:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In this regard, let me emphasize that, despite what religious and social apologists say, any adult who grooms children to be his sex objects is sexually abusing those children. Sex between an adult and a child is abusive. Sex between an adult and an 11 or 12 year old child can not be consensual. The fact that the name of God and religion were used to obscure this exploitive and abusive practice make these activities even more heinous and destructive to the long term development of these children. \ I agree with you, and if what is written in your posting is true, then the authorities should have been charging this guy with child sexual abuse and putting him in jail. Why was the only reason for going after him something to do with weapons? For some reason or other, no one cared about the children even before they killed them. It was weapons that were important. Why didn't they simply pick this guy up from one of his jogs and charge him with his crimes? No matter how you slice it, nothing the Government (local or federal) makes any sense at all. Prudy DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
