Re: [CTRL] Fwd: "Secret Evidence" Against Bill Too Shocking for the Public
-Caveat Lector- Linda Minor wrote: I love to hear people say that Clinton should be treated just like any other American. But it's obvious from what we read in the press, that he has not been afforded any of the safeguards required by the Constitution. And in addition, they want to fine him for trying to defend himself. MJ: SPECIFICALLY which of these have been circumvented? To my knowledge Mr. Bill has YET to be 'tried' for any offenses. Linda Minor wrote: Exactly. But any "accused" has the right to presumption of innocence after indictment and can prevent the jury from hearing any hearsay evidence before the trial. If necessary the jury can be sequestered to prevent such inadmissible evidence from tainting their opinions. This whole procedure is a farce. MJ: An Impeachment trial is NOT the same as a trial in a court of law. The only 'farce' would be a 'resolve' without a trial. MJ quotes: No man ought to be exempt from the ties of law; and the higher any man is, the more ties he ought to be under. All power ought to be balanced with equal restraints, else it will certainly grow mischievous. He who knows no law but his own lust, seldom observes any other. -- Cato's Letters Linda Minor wrote: So are you saying the president does not deserve to be treated like any other American citizen? That we can convict him in the press on hearsay evidence. If he defends himself, he can be fined the cost it takes to railroad him without a trial? MJ: Where exactly did I state any of this? Who is suggesting 'railroad him without a trial'? There has been some banter suggesting he 'reimburse' court costs for 'misleading' the investigation -- much like the 100% acquitted Newt Gingrich (though I fail to see the correlation). Linda Minor asked: And who, pray tell, is Cato? Cato the Elder or Cato the Censor (Marcus Porcius Cato), 234-149 B.C., Roman statesman and moralist. He fought in the Second Punic War and later served as consul (195) and censor (184). He was renowned for his devotion to the old Roman ideals-simplicity of life, honesty, and courage. He told the senate to destroy Carthage and thus helped to bring on the Third Punic War, in which Carthage was vanquished. He also wrote many works, most of which are now lost. Cato the Younger or Cato of Utica (Marcus Porcius Cato), 95 B.C.-46 B.C., Roman statesman, was the great-grandson of Cato the Elder. He showed an intense devotion to the principles of the early republic. He had one of the greatest reputations for honesty and incorruptibility of anyone in ancient times, and his Stoicism put him above the graft and bribery of his day. His politics were extremely conservative. Thus he opposed Julius Caesar and supported Pompey. After Pompey's defeat at Pharsala in 48 B.C., Cato went to Africa to continue the struggle and took command at Utica. When Caesar clearly had gained power, Cato committed suicide, bidding his people make their peace with Caesar. Regard$, --MJ If he ever violates the laws, one of two things will happen: He shall come to the head of his army to carry everything before him; or, he will give bail, or do what Mr. Chief Justice will order him. If he be guilty, will not the recollection of his crimes teach him to make one bold rush for the American throne? Will not the immense difference between being master of everything, and being ignominiously tried and punished, powerfully excite him to make this bold push? But, Sir, where is the existing force to punish him? Can he not at the head of his army beat down every oppposition? Away with your President, we shall have a King: The army will salute him Monarch; your militia will leave you and assist in making him King, and fight against you: And what have you to oppose this force? What then will become of your rights? Will not absolute despotism ensue? ... This, Sir, is my great objection to the Constitution, that there is no true responsibility - and that the preservation of our liberty depends on the single chance of men being virtuous enough to make laws to punish themselves. -- Patrick Henry Anti-Federalist Speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1788 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscrib
Re: [CTRL] Fwd: "Secret Evidence" Against Bill Too Shocking for the Public
-Caveat Lector- MJ wrote: >Linda Minor wrote: > I love to hear people say that Clinton should be treated > just like any other American. But it's obvious from what > we read in the press, that he has not been afforded any > of the safeguards required by the Constitution. And in > addition, they want to fine him for trying to defend himself. > >MJ: >SPECIFICALLY which of these have been circumvented? > >To my knowledge Mr. Bill has YET to be 'tried' for any offenses. > === Exactly. But any "accused" has the right to presumption of innocence after indictment and can prevent the jury from hearing any hearsay evidence before the trial. If necessary the jury can be sequestered to prevent such inadmissible evidence from tainting their opinions. This whole procedure is a farce. === MJ wrote also: >No man ought to be exempt from the ties of law; and the higher >any man is, the more ties he ought to be under. All power ought >to be balanced with equal restraints, else it will certainly >grow mischievous. He who knows no law but his own lust, seldom >observes any other. -- Cato's Letters > -- So are you saying the president does not deserve to be treated like any other American citizen? That we can convict him in the press on hearsay evidence. If he defends himself, he can be fined the cost it takes to railroad him without a trial? And who, pray tell, is Cato? Linda DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fwd: "Secret Evidence" Against Bill Too Shocking for the Public
-Caveat Lector- Linda Minor wrote: I love to hear people say that Clinton should be treated just like any other American. But it's obvious from what we read in the press, that he has not been afforded any of the safeguards required by the Constitution. And in addition, they want to fine him for trying to defend himself. MJ: SPECIFICALLY which of these have been circumvented? To my knowledge Mr. Bill has YET to be 'tried' for any offenses. Regard$, --MJ No man ought to be exempt from the ties of law; and the higher any man is, the more ties he ought to be under. All power ought to be balanced with equal restraints, else it will certainly grow mischievous. He who knows no law but his own lust, seldom observes any other. -- Cato's Letters DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fwd: "Secret Evidence" Against Bill Too Shocking for the Public
-Caveat Lector- RoadsEnd wrote: >>After receiving independent counsel Kenneth Starr's report, House investigators conducted their own interviews with three women, two of whom had told Starr that Clinton pressured them not to reveal their relationships, House aides said on Wednesday. CNBC's ``Rivera Live'' reported on Wednesday that a total of 47 House Republicans, wavering before last week's impeachment vote, were secretly shown material gathered by attorneys for Paula Jones, which was ruled inadmissible and hearsay.<< >>Any censure would have to be strong enough to get some Republican support. Representative Lee Hamilton, an Indiana Democrat, said in an interview he had been talking with moderate Republicans and they insisted on two preconditions for a censure settlement -- for Clinton to acknowledge he lied and for him to pay some damages. They want the money compensation because they feel that since Republican Speaker Newt Gingrich had to pay costs when he was reprimanded by the House Clinton should also pay.<< ++ I love to hear people say that Clinton should be treated just like any other American. But it's obvious from what we read in the press, that he has not been afforded any of the safeguards required by the Constitution. And in addition, they want to fine him for trying to defend himself. Linda DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Fwd: "Secret Evidence" Against Bill Too Shocking for the Public
"CNBC reported that 47 House Republicans, wavering before the impeachment vote, were privately shown evidence gathered by attorneys for Paula Jones -- evidence earlier ruled inadmissible and as yet undisclosed to the public. "Tom DeLay warned senators that they might regret a decision merely to censure Clinton before going through additional evidence in the case. He would not reveal the nature of this evidence but said he and many other Congressmen found it "troubling." Democrats see votes lacking for Clinton removal By David Wiessler WASHINGTON, Dec 23 (Reuters) - An informal Senate poll conducted by the Senate Democratic Leader showed on Wednesday support for removing President Bill Clinton from office was short of the two-thirds majority required under the Constitution. A total of 67 senators would be needed to find Clinton guilty of the two articles of impeachment approved by the House of Representatives alleging perjury and obstruction of justice in his handling of the Monica Lewinsky affair. A spokesperson for Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota said he had been canvassing Senate sentiment and found support for removal short of that number. The Senate was preparing to begin a presidential impeachment trial for only the second time in its history -- and the first time since President Andrew Johnson in 1868 -- when it comes back on Jan. 6. Many senators were exploring the idea of censuring Clinton but allowing him to finish his term. Getting to that point was likely to be difficult and was by no means certain. Representative Tom DeLay, the Republican whip who was a major backer of impeachment in the House, said senators should review all 60,000 pages of evidence -- much of which has not yet been made public -- before making up their minds. After receiving independent counsel Kenneth Starr's report, House investigators conducted their own interviews with three women, two of whom had told Starr that Clinton pressured them not to reveal their relationships, House aides said on Wednesday. CNBC's ``Rivera Live'' reported on Wednesday that a total of 47 House Republicans, wavering before last week's impeachment vote, were secretly shown material gathered by attorneys for Paula Jones, which was ruled inadmissible and hearsay. DeLay gave no specifics, but warned senators against ``rushing to judgment,'' saying they might regret a decision to censure before going through the evidence in the case. One White House official said the DeLay statement amounted to ``a classic smear campaign,'' especially since he had not revealed the nature of the evidence he found so troubling. ``Having put the hammer to his colleagues in the House, Tom DeLay is trying to do the same in the Senate, and we believe senators will reject the politics of personal destruction,'' said White House spokesman Jim Kennedy. What seemed clear was the Senate would at least begin the trial process, even if the proceedings are halted early, to satisfy those who say it is the Senate's constitutional duty to do so. Any censure would have to be strong enough to get some Republican support. Representative Lee Hamilton, an Indiana Democrat, said in an interview he had been talking with moderate Republicans and they insisted on two preconditions for a censure settlement -- for Clinton to acknowledge he lied and for him to pay some damages. They want the money compensation because they feel that since Republican Speaker Newt Gingrich had to pay costs when he was reprimanded by the House Clinton should also pay. Clinton has not said he lied to a grand jury as charged, saying that while his answers may not have been complete they were legally correct. His approval ratings in public opinion polls at record levels despite his troubles, Clinton travelled to Baltimore on Wednesday to announce plans to boost assistance to the homeless as his legal team prepared for a Senate trial. Sen. Rick Santorum, a Pennsylvania Republican, said on MSNBC's ``Watch It'' programme that the Senate should start the trial and senators should not make up their minds in advance. But he did leave open the possibility of censure, saying there ``may be a point that you have a majority of members who decide the evidence isn't sufficient and cut short that process.'' In the only other impeachment trial after the Civil War, Johnson was acquitted by one vote.
