Re: [CTRL] GAVIN PHILLIPS-- REPLY TO PUBLICEYE.ORG
-Caveat Lector- Hello Tony: I do not have any original documents. The checkable facts Griffin has referenced are the February 3 1949 issue of the New York Journal American. He also says that on March 24, 1917, the New York Times quotes a telegram sent by Schiff regarding the abdication of Nicholas II. He described the Russian revolution as "...what we had hoped and striven for these long years." Griffin also says that $10,000 was given to Trotsky to organize the Bolshevik phase of the Russian Revolution. The amount is known with certainty because Trotsky was arrested by Canadian and British naval personnel when Trotsky's ship, the S.S. Kristianiafjord, put in at Halifax. pg 265 "...it was assumed that the $10,000 was German money given to him in New York. The evidence, however, is that this, too, came from Kuhn, Loeb and company." Griffin's footnote here cites your book Tony, "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution." p21-24 Griffin also states that most of Trotsky's expenses whilst in New York for several months after he was thrown out of France in January 1916, were paid for by Jacob Schiff. pg 264 << Thank you Gavin for pointing out these apparent discrepancies Let me try to explain the problem. Ive been working away at this conspiracy area in its various aspects since about 1960, and so has Ed Griffin, whom I have known for 20+ years with much respect . Back in the early 1970's I worked through the State Department Decimal file ( the CIA of 1920), the files of the War Trade Board, the British Foreign Office Confidential files and the German OKW files.. If you look at my WALL STREET AND THE BOLSEHVIK REVOLUTION( Buccaneers Book) and AMERICAS SECRET ESTABLISHMENT ( LIBERTY HOUSE PRESS) you will find I base the case on ORIGINAL documents (telegrams, letters, memos, S&B membership list etc). No one has ever refuted these documents. From the research viewpoint it leaves open whether Schiff and Jewish bankers. also financed the Bolsheviks. If you read the appendix in BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTION you will find a review of the Jewish banker argument .At that time I had no evidence that they provided any funds and I still have no documentary evidence. However I did find disinformation coming out of the WAR TRADE BAORD directed by John Foster Dulles, close to the Wall Street operators (Morgan, Thompson, Thacher)o. This is confirmed in the Scotland Yard files. I have always based arguments on documentary evidence at hand. If anyone has documentary material contrary to my argument then I assuredly would like to see it.. On the other hand I do not rely on quotes from interested parties. In no way does this detract from the decades long work of Edward Griffin. This is a murky.field and we all, me included, tread warily. Show me some original documents, Gavin. Thank you for your interest. TONY SUTTON. >> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] GAVIN PHILLIPS-- REPLY TO PUBLICEYE.ORG
-Caveat Lector- I have never been able to tie the various events together. trying to get the facts/ speculation together seem to be- (sources both mainline and conspiracy books) 1The British round table/ rothschilds seemed to support the mensheviks in the first revolution Trotsky was a menshevik until 'turned' by Lenin. 2 The mailine british establishment(royal family, army etc) supported Czar and wished he continue ruling 3The germans supported Lenins revolution but only as a means of winning WW1 The Warburgs(head of the german secret service) were highly involved in the whole operation and as well as providing the sealed carriage provided in the order of $3-4bn (in todays money). The germans were the principle source of finance. 4The Russian Jews were predominantly Bolshevik and significant supporters of the Bolshevik revolution..and provided much of the initial thrust. They were later sidelined by Stalin due to his better administartive ability. 5The Rockerfellers/ JP Morgans on the american side were the principle supporters of the bolshevik revolution. Josephson in his book Rockerfeller internationalist states that schiff paid Rockerfeller money to Lenin. The Wall street axis continued to support the Bolshevik alliance until now. Their control rose and fell and rose again. They backed the Jewish bolsheviks initially, then stalin gained control and was not controlled until hitlers war. 6The Round Table/ Rothschilds interests continued support of menshevik principles and continued supporting Trotsky in the hope he would prevail over Stalin. The round table's support of Hitler was ambiguous( deceitful ?). Tended to support zionism as opposed to internationalism. More neutral toward the christian church. Supported the white russians financially. 7 rockerfeller/ skull and bones supported the Fabian soc and the labour party. Undermined the christian church by infiltration. Supported the Bolsheviks. More than once lost control.(Stalins plans to invade germany, start ww3 against the west- see Stalin Radvinsky) A conspiracy theory in terms of being a theory should be testable and fit the facts with the fewest possible discrepancies. It is the discrepancies that are the true test. Hypothesis 1 1 there are a number of divergent parties each pursuing their own group interests. Some of the participants had their foot in more than one camp, or even changed some allegiances. The parties would be Germans, americans, round table, russian Jews, S & B etc. This is close to mailine history except includes the secret socs 2 Mainline history plus the 2 major secret socs acting against each other for supremecy (the daniels hypothesis) 3 A central conspiracy that orchestrates the flow of events. Control is exercised through the control of money and useful idiots such as Hitler. 4 Central control through 4th dimensional reptaloids shape shifting humanoids. we are all low dimensional control vibrations that were all mind controled slaves of a malignant entity whose heart is Ice-k. 5 Conspiracy theories are thought up by a bunch of nuts who are either paranoid or nuts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 09 September 1999 05:34 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [CTRL] GAVIN PHILLIPS-- REPLY TO PUBLICEYE.ORG -Caveat Lector- Thank you Gavin for pointing out these apparent discrepancies Let me try to explain the problem. Ive been working away at this conspiracy area in its various aspects since about 1960, and so has Ed Griffin, whom I have known for 20+ years with much respect . Back in the early 1970's I worked through the State Department Decimal file ( the CIA of 1920), the files of the War Trade Board, the British Foreign Office Confidential files and the German OKW files.. If you look at my WALL STREET AND THE BOLSEHVIK REVOLUTION( Buccaneers Book) and AMERICAS SECRET ESTABLISHMENT ( LIBERTY HOUSE PRESS) you will find I base the case on ORIGINAL documents (telegrams, letters, memos, S&B membership list etc). No one has ever refuted these documents. >From the research viewpoint it leaves open whether Schiff and Jewish bankers. also financed the Bolsheviks. If you read the appendix in BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTION you will find a review of the Jewish banker argument .At that time I had no evidence that they provided any funds and I still have no documentary evidence. However I did find disinformation coming out of the WAR TRADE BAORD directed by John Foster Dulles, close to the Wall Street operators (Morgan, Thompson, Thacher)o. This is confirmed in the Scotland Yard files. I have always based arguments on documentary evidence at hand. If anyone has documentary material contrary to my argument then I assuredly would like to see it.. On the other hand I do not rely on quotes from interested parties. In no way does this detract from the decades long work of Edward Griffin. This is a murky.field and we all, me i
[CTRL] GAVIN PHILLIPS-- REPLY TO PUBLICEYE.ORG
-Caveat Lector- Thank you Gavin for pointing out these apparent discrepancies Let me try to explain the problem. Ive been working away at this conspiracy area in its various aspects since about 1960, and so has Ed Griffin, whom I have known for 20+ years with much respect . Back in the early 1970's I worked through the State Department Decimal file ( the CIA of 1920), the files of the War Trade Board, the British Foreign Office Confidential files and the German OKW files.. If you look at my WALL STREET AND THE BOLSEHVIK REVOLUTION( Buccaneers Book) and AMERICAS SECRET ESTABLISHMENT ( LIBERTY HOUSE PRESS) you will find I base the case on ORIGINAL documents (telegrams, letters, memos, S&B membership list etc). No one has ever refuted these documents. >From the research viewpoint it leaves open whether Schiff and Jewish bankers. also financed the Bolsheviks. If you read the appendix in BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTION you will find a review of the Jewish banker argument .At that time I had no evidence that they provided any funds and I still have no documentary evidence. However I did find disinformation coming out of the WAR TRADE BAORD directed by John Foster Dulles, close to the Wall Street operators (Morgan, Thompson, Thacher)o. This is confirmed in the Scotland Yard files. I have always based arguments on documentary evidence at hand. If anyone has documentary material contrary to my argument then I assuredly would like to see it.. On the other hand I do not rely on quotes from interested parties. In no way does this detract from the decades long work of Edward Griffin. This is a murky.field and we all, me included, tread warily. Show me some original documents, Gavin. Thank you for your interest. TONY SUTTON. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
