Re: [CTRL] Parallels Between Iraq and Vietnam (Georgie Anne Geyer)

2003-11-12 Thread Eric Stewart
-Caveat Lector-

If it takes some 500,000 armed personnel to keep peace in Bosnia and
Serbia, why only deploy 130,000 to a much harder campaign, against a much
larger force, namely in Iraq?  Sounds like just the kind of toke presence
to make a showing but not really piss off the sheiks, just the kind of
presence necessary to sell some bombs and distract Americans from the
systematic dismantling of environmental protections, among other things.

Quoting Sean McBride [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 -Caveat Lector-

 http://www.uexpress.com/printable/print.html?
uc_full_date=20031104uc_comic=gg




   VIETNAM AND IRAQ HAVE MORE SIMILARITIES THAN DIFFERENCES

   CHICAGO -- To my immense surprise, I recently ran into the American
 scholar who, for many correspondents in Vietnam, offered the most
 fair-minded analysis of the war.
   Suddenly, there was Gerald Gerry Hickey at the Chicago Public
 Library, a little grayer after 35 years, but still much the same, with a
 big smile on his face and a welcome Hello!

   I remembered well how Gerry, then the Rand Corp.'s top man in
 Vietnam, had meticulously explained for us the cultures and behavior of
 highland tribes such as the Montagnards, but also the Viet Cong and the
 pro-American Saigon government.

   And now we're doing the same thing all over again, he said as we
 talked about Iraq. First, we suffer from the same invincible ignorance
 about Iraq that we suffered over Vietnamese culture. Second, in Vietnam
 we set the military impact with no concern about our effect on South
 Vietnamese culture. By the time we left in 1975, they were just
 exhausted. They were just tired out -- and so was I.

   It is so sad now that I can see the same mistakes being made in
 Iraq. The GIs busting down the doors, breaking into homes, doing
 everything wrong. But, you know something, he went on, sadness outlining
 his voice, I'm shocked at much of what we are seeing in Iraq: The
 Americans are much crueler than they were in Vietnam. Remember, when
 American correspondents found American troops burning down houses -- that
 was remarkable then; today it's the norm.

   Gerry and I talked a long time that day, mulling over our common
 experiences, wondering primarily why the United States can't ever pause
 to analyze a country correctly, and above all comparing the two
 conflicts.

   Despite the myriad voices in the press insisting, Iraq is not a
 Vietnam! the indisputable fact is that, if you consider the passions and
 principles applied there, it really IS another Vietnam. Among the causes
 for the war are obscurantist theories about foreign threats that have
 little basis in reality; civilians at the top who play with the soldiers
 they have never been; and the underlying lies that give credence to
 special interests (the Bay of Tonkin pretense in Vietnam, the supposed
 weapons of mass destruction in Iraq).

   In Vietnam, we were following the bizarre notion of the domino
 theory, the idea that a communist Vietnam would mean that all of
 Southeast Asia would fall to communism. The Johnson administration
 refused to realize that it was a colonial war, and that in colonial wars,
 people fight forever.

   With Iraq, the second Bush administration accepted the idea,
 perfervidly pushed by civilian neoconservatives, that Iraq was the center
 of terrorism, the cause of 9/11 and an immediate threat, ignoring the
 Greek chorus of voices warning against such intellectual, military and
 moral folly.

   Curiosly, in both cases it was civilian ideological fanatics in the
 Pentagon, enamored of American technology and with no knowledge of
 history or culture, and not the U.S. military, who pressed for the wars.
 (It was Robert McNamara and his whiz kids then; now it's Paul
 Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Richard Perle and others.)

   Perhaps the old American maxim of civilian control of the military
 might be changed, with what we are seeing, to military control of the
 civilians.

   Other comparisons of the two wars:

   Today, one hears a doublespeak that almost echoes the communists of
 the old days. In Vietnam, it was, We had to destroy the village to save
 it. With Iraq, it is President Bush's statement of last week that the
 more successful we are on the ground, the more these killers will react!


   Today, it's called Iraqization. In Vietnam, it was called
 Vietnamization -- late-hour attempts to make everything look as though
 it's working. As military historian William Lind wryly remarked to me of
 Iraqization, It presumes that because you pay someone, he's yours.

   In 1967 in Vietnam, I spent a lot of time interviewing officers and
 troops all over the country, and I wrote a series of articles that my
 paper, the Chicago Daily News, headlined with: The GI Who Asks 'Why?'
 Today's GIs are beginning to ask that same question.

   America needs to look seriously at these two wars and analyze why
 it repeatedly gets 

[CTRL] Parallels Between Iraq and Vietnam (Georgie Anne Geyer)

2003-11-09 Thread Sean McBride
-Caveat Lector-



http://www.uexpress.com/printable/print.html?uc_full_date=20031104uc_comic=gg


  
  

   
  VIETNAM AND IRAQ HAVE MORE SIMILARITIES THAN 
  DIFFERENCESCHICAGO -- To 
  my immense surprise, I recently ran into the American scholar who, for 
  many correspondents in Vietnam, offered the most fair-minded analysis of 
  the war. 
  Suddenly, there was Gerald "Gerry" Hickey at the 
  Chicago Public Library, a little grayer after 35 years, but still much the 
  same, with a big smile on his face and a welcome "Hello!" 
  I remembered well how Gerry, then the Rand Corp.'s top 
  man in Vietnam, had meticulously explained for us the cultures and 
  behavior of highland tribes such as the Montagnards, but also the Viet 
  Cong and the "pro-American" Saigon government. 
  "And now we're doing the same thing all over again," 
  he said as we talked about Iraq. "First, we suffer from the same 
  invincible ignorance about Iraq that we suffered over Vietnamese culture. 
  Second, in Vietnam we set the military impact with no concern about our 
  effect on South Vietnamese culture. By the time we left in 1975, they were 
  just exhausted. They were just tired out -- and so was I. 
  "It is so sad now that I can see the same mistakes 
  being made in Iraq. The GIs busting down the doors, breaking into homes, 
  doing everything wrong. But, you know something," he went on, sadness 
  outlining his voice, "I'm shocked at much of what we are seeing in Iraq: 
  The Americans are much crueler than they were in Vietnam. Remember, when 
  American correspondents found American troops burning down houses -- that 
  was remarkable then; today it's the norm." 
  Gerry and I talked a long time that day, mulling over 
  our common experiences, wondering primarily why the United States can't 
  ever pause to analyze a country correctly, and above all comparing the two 
  conflicts. 
  Despite the myriad voices in the press insisting, 
  "Iraq is not a Vietnam!" the indisputable fact is that, if you consider 
  the passions and principles applied there, it really IS another Vietnam. 
  Among the causes for the war are obscurantist theories about foreign 
  threats that have little basis in reality; civilians at the top who play 
  with the soldiers they have never been; and the underlying lies that give 
  credence to special interests (the Bay of Tonkin pretense in Vietnam, the 
  supposed weapons of mass destruction in Iraq). 
  In Vietnam, we were following the bizarre notion of 
  the "domino theory," the idea that a communist Vietnam would mean that all 
  of Southeast Asia would fall to communism. The Johnson administration 
  refused to realize that it was a colonial war, and that in colonial wars, 
  people fight forever. 
  With Iraq, the second Bush administration accepted the 
  idea, perfervidly pushed by civilian neoconservatives, that Iraq was the 
  center of terrorism, the cause of 9/11 and an immediate threat, ignoring 
  the Greek chorus of voices warning against such intellectual, military and 
  moral folly. 
  Curiosly, in both cases it was civilian ideological 
  fanatics in the Pentagon, enamored of American technology and with no 
  knowledge of history or culture, and not the U.S. military, who pressed 
  for the wars. (It was Robert McNamara and his "whiz kids" then; now it's 
  Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Richard Perle and others.) 
  Perhaps the old American maxim of civilian control of 
  the military might be changed, with what we are seeing, to military 
  control of the civilians. 
  Other comparisons of the two wars: 
  Today, one hears a doublespeak that almost echoes the 
  communists of the old days. In Vietnam, it was, "We had to destroy the 
  village to save it." With Iraq, it is President Bush's statement of last 
  week that "the more successful we are on the ground, the more these 
  killers will react!" 
  Today, it's called "Iraqization." In Vietnam, it was 
  called "Vietnamization" -- late-hour attempts to make everything look as 
  though it's working. As military historian William Lind wryly remarked to 
  me of Iraqization, "It presumes that because you pay someone, he's yours." 

  In 1967 in Vietnam, I spent a lot of time interviewing 
  officers and troops all over the country, and I wrote a series of articles 
  that my paper, the Chicago Daily News, headlined with: "The GI Who Asks 
  'Why?'" Today's GIs are beginning to ask that same question. 
  America needs to look seriously at these two wars and 
  analyze why it repeatedly gets involved in painful and costly faraway 
  conflicts. Why, when we could with little effort be a great example for 
  mankind, do we