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On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 09:19 PM, William Shannon wrote: So now it's our job to be the world's supercop? There are dangerous dictators all over the world...many who are far more dangerous than tin-horn Saddam Hussein. Why not go after Castro? Or Mugabe? Why Saddam? The facts are clear, this is none of our business and we are simple doing the bidding of Israel and big oil. War of aggression is illegal under international law and Nazis were hanged for it at Nuremburg. What's the difference here? We're going to attack and decimate a country that is not a threat to us in any way, shape or form. And then we're going to do the same to Syria, Iran, Libya, the Sudan and god knows who else. It's insanity. Meanwhile, as Napoleon Bush crosses the Rubicon our economy is failing... Bill. Who else can keep a semblance of peace and order in the world besides the US? Certainly not the United Nations, an impotent organization which is overrun with representatives from the very tyrannical, oppressive regimes which need reform. As to the ridiculous ( and ubiquitous) charge that it's all about big oil. . . Use a little common sense. Which would be simpler and easier - to appease Saddam Hussein like the French and the Germans have done in order to strike sweet deals for Iraqui oil, regardless of the atrocities this madman is committing against his own people, and the threat he couses to other nations, or to stand against him, depose him, and return control of the country's resources to the citizens? Again, which would be simpler and easier - to protect the only functional, free-economy democracy in the Middle East, Israel, or to allow known murderers like Yasser Arafat to continue to milk the Palestinians to serve as his personal cheering squad and power base? If Arafat had any concern for the Palestinian people, he could have good living conditions and an economy as strong as Israel's. After all, Israel managed to turn the same harsh environment into an area teeming with manufacturing, research and agriculture. What has Arafat's leadership caused the Palestinians to produce? Homicidal maniacs and whiners. Iraq does indeed pose a threat - not only to us but the entire world. That's why the impotent United Nations decreed that Hussein must disarm - 11 years ago. Iraqui's have suffered under UN-approved sanctions because Hussein has not complied with the terms established which would remove those sanctions. Wars of aggression are despicable. But this is not a war of aggression. We don't want to annex Iraq as the Germans did the Sudetenland - we want to return Iraq to it's own people, free of a tyrannical madman. As to your continuing references to Napoleon Bush. . . Can you please list, in alphabetical order the countries which consititute this imaginary empire? Which nations pay their taxes to us? Which nations pay us tribute? Instead, why don't you balance the zero-entry empire list against all of the nations which we support. In fact, who gives more financial aid to the Palestinians than any other nation in the world? The United States. It seems so many who criticize our policies suffer from a pathological self-hatred. Ray
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-Caveat Lector- Yeah ok Ray. Self-hatred? And pathological at that huh? Ray, apparently you're fine with empire-building and utterly disregarding domestic problems but I tend towards an America FIRST view and value the Constitution...to you both America and our Constitution are clearly secondary at best. If you are so deluded as to believe that Iraq is a threat to ANYONE - much less America - I can't help you. Keep getting your "news" from the neo-cons on FoxNews and talk radio...Goebbels would be proud of these shills. Don't dig any deeper than you have to to see for yourself what's REALLY happening. If it isn't in the Washington Times or the Weekly Standard it must be wrong. I see that your primary allegiance seems to be to Israel and therein lies our differences. I cannot change your lack of enthusiasm for what WAS the American way. Maybe Tel Aviv calls?? We give aid to many countries and we ought to cease and desist all aid forthwith. But if we're going to be the military wing of the UN we ought to be consistent and also enforce UN resolutions against Israel. At the very least we ought to suspend all aid until Israel comes into compliance with each and every one of the 70+ resolutions that they are in violation of. See Ray, I am offended as an American in out meddling in the affairs of other SOVEREIGN nations...it's none of our business what Iraq or Gambia or Uraguay do internally just as what we do is not their business. You seem to be very cavalier with national sovereignty and I could see such an attitude backfiring on us. One day China or Russia may feel the need for "regime change" here...and people like you set precedent. Are you also going to apologize for the next round of Napoleon Bush's empire building in Syria and Iran? When does it end Ray? And how did the so-called "war on terror" morph into making the Middle East safe for Israel? Are you a man Ray or are you a sheep? Bill. In a message dated 3/13/2003 9:09:10 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Who else can keep a semblance of peace and order in the world besides the US? Certainly not the United Nations, an impotent organization which is overrun with representatives from the very tyrannical, oppressive regimes which need reform. As to the ridiculous ( and ubiquitous) charge that it's all about big oil. . . Use a little common sense. Which would be simpler and easier - to appease Saddam Hussein like the French and the Germans have done in order to strike sweet deals for Iraqui oil, regardless of the atrocities this madman is committing against his own people, and the threat he couses to other nations, or to stand against him, depose him, and return control of the country's resources to the citizens? Again, which would be simpler and easier - to protect the only functional, free-economy democracy in the Middle East, Israel, or to allow known murderers like Yasser Arafat to continue to milk the Palestinians to serve as his personal cheering squad and power base? If Arafat had any concern for the Palestinian people, he could have good living conditions and an economy as strong as Israel's. After all, Israel managed to turn the same harsh environment into an area teeming with manufacturing, research and agriculture. What has Arafat's leadership caused the Palestinians to produce? Homicidal maniacs and whiners. Iraq does indeed pose a threat - not only to us but the entire world. That's why the impotent United Nations decreed that Hussein must disarm - 11 years ago. Iraqui's have suffered under UN-approved sanctions because Hussein has not complied with the terms established which would remove those sanctions. Wars of aggression are despicable. But this is not a war of aggression. We don't want to annex Iraq as the Germans did the Sudetenland - we want to return Iraq to it's own people, free of a tyrannical madman. As to your continuing references to "Napoleon" Bush. . . Can you please list, in alphabetical order the countries which consititute this imaginary empire? Which nations pay their taxes to us? Which nations pay us tribute? Instead, why don't you balance the zero-entry empire list against all of the nations which we support. In fact, who gives more financial aid to the Palestinians than any other nation in the world? The United States. It seems so many who criticize our policies suffer from a pathological self-hatred. Ray A HREF=""www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to
Re: [CTRL] Check this out on FrontPageMag.com!
On Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 09:31 AM, William Shannon wrote: Yeah ok Ray. Self-hatred? And pathological at that huh? Ray, apparently you're fine with empire-building and utterly disregarding domestic problems but I tend towards an America FIRST view and value the Constitution...to you both America and our Constitution are clearly secondary at best. If you are so deluded as to believe that Iraq is a threat to ANYONE - much less America - I can't help you. Keep getting your news from the neo-cons on FoxNews and talk radio...Goebbels would be proud of these shills. Don't dig any deeper than you have to to see for yourself what's REALLY happening. If it isn't in the Washington Times or the Weekly Standard it must be wrong. I see that your primary allegiance seems to be to Israel and therein lies our differences. I cannot change your lack of enthusiasm for what WAS the American way. Maybe Tel Aviv calls?? We give aid to many countries and we ought to cease and desist all aid forthwith. But if we're going to be the military wing of the UN we ought to be consistent and also enforce UN resolutions against Israel. At the very least we ought to suspend all aid until Israel comes into compliance with each and every one of the 70+ resolutions that they are in violation of. See Ray, I am offended as an American in out meddling in the affairs of other SOVEREIGN nations...it's none of our business what Iraq or Gambia or Uraguay do internally just as what we do is not their business. You seem to be very cavalier with national sovereignty and I could see such an attitude backfiring on us. One day China or Russia may feel the need for regime change here...and people like you set precedent. Are you also going to apologize for the next round of Napoleon Bush's empire building in Syria and Iran? When does it end Ray? And how did the so-called war on terror morph into making the Middle East safe for Israel? Are you a man Ray or are you a sheep? Bill. Bill: I can certainly agree to disagree over the status of Iraq as a threat, or the necessity to neutralize that threat by military force. I am certainly an ardent Constitutionalist, and one who adamantly refutes the position that the Constitution is a living document which should assume the shape of the latest moral or political trend. But you miss my point, or I haven't enunciated it clearly enough. My biggest question is how do you construe anything America has done in the past, or intends to do in the near future, as empire building? We have always striven to liberate countries, give the people a voice, and then let them deal with their internal affairs; not dominate or subjugate others. Our only interest in the internal affairs of other nations has been, and continues to be, when those affairs pose a threat to us. In this case, vis a vis the funding and training of radical Islamist terrorists. Once again, where is this empire we've built? Ray
Re: [CTRL] Check this out on FrontPageMag.com!
-Caveat Lector- where is this empire we've built? America doesn't just HAVE an empire. America IS an empire. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Check this out on FrontPageMag.com!
-Caveat Lector- On Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 11:06 AM, Nessie SFBG wrote: -Caveat Lector- where is this empire we've built? America doesn't just HAVE an empire. America IS an empire. Once again, let's see the list of countries existing under the tyranny of American rule. Simply because we're free, and economically successful and provide more aid to the less-fortunate countries of the world than any other nation, does not equate with any rational concept of imperial domination. Ray A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
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-Caveat Lector- Who are you Ray? Are you new to this list? I don't recall seeing you here? Did Hannity or Rush send you to try to colonize us? Bill. In a message dated 3/13/2003 11:23:28 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Once again, let's see the list of countries existing under the tyranny of American rule. Simply because we're free, and economically successful and provide more aid to the less-fortunate countries of the world than any other nation, does not equate with any rational concept of imperial domination. A HREF=""www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=""Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=""ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
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-Caveat Lector- we're free, and economically successful Some of us are free, others are not. America has the highest per capita prison population on earth, most of them non violent drug offenders. Scores of millions of us live below the poverty line. Scores of millions of us have no medical coverage whatsoever. the list of countries existing under the tyranny of American rule. America itself exists under tyrannical rule. We no longer have a working constitution, and haven't had a Bill of Rights since the 1988 Omnibus Anti-Crime Act. Under the PATRIOT Act, federal law enforcement has powers of surveillance and detention that would make Himmler proud. Our troops violate the sovereignty of other nations at will. Democracy? Don't make me laugh. America is a plutocracy, nothing more, nothing less. It's not even a republic. It's an empire, or as we the enlightened call it, an ongoing criminal enterprise. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
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On Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 11:26 AM, William Shannon wrote: Who are you Ray? Are you new to this list? I don't recall seeing you here? Did Hannity or Rush send you to try to colonize us? Bill. Bill: Yes, I just signed on to the list. No, I haven't been sent in an effort to colonize you by imperialist masters. : -) As to who I am, my background is broad. I've done research into the paranormal (UFOs, cryptozoology, psychic phenomena, and yes, conspiracies) for a number of years, along with a lot of writing and public speaking on those topics. I am a priest with the Reformed Episcopal Church, serving a parish in Lincoln Nebraska. My seminary training is principally in systematic theology, philosophy and apologetics. I make my living as an artist. I design book interiors and jackets for the University of Nebraska Press, one of the leading university presses in the United States. My interests are pretty limitless, running from politics to alternative medicine to military history to archaeology, and on and on. But that still doesn't answer my objection to this erroneous characterization of America as an imperialist power. So, I'll try once more: Once again, let's see the list of countries existing under the tyranny of American rule. Simply because we're free, and economically successful and provide more aid to the less-fortunate countries of the world than any other nation, does not equate with any rational concept of imperial domination. Ray
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-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 3/13/2003 2:25:40 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But that still doesn't answer my objection to this erroneous characterization of America as an imperialist power. Napoleon Bush is adding to the empire with a start in Iraq and then on to Syria, Iran, Libya and any other nation that is hostile to Israel. As you've no doubt noticed our economy is dying too and history is going to repeat itself if this empire-building is not stopped. But keep fiddling... Bill. A HREF=""www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=""Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=""ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
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-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 3/12/2003 8:53:41 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems to me more likely that the conspiracy may be leaning the other way. You see what you want to see. Sure some of the organizers of a few demonstrations are pink but are you suggesting that everyone who opposes Napoleon Bush's Wars are? Is Pat Buchanan, Charley Reese, The John Birch Society, the American Free Press or Ron Paul pink? Am I? I don't think so. I DO think that David Horowitz is a blowhard who knows how to raise funds from simple-minded neo-cons who want to live in a world of black and white. Bill. A HREF=""www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=""Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=""ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Check this out on FrontPageMag.com!
-Caveat Lector- On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 09:00 PM, William Shannon wrote: Sure some of the organizers of a few demonstrations are pink but are you suggesting that everyone who opposes Napoleon Bush's Wars are? Is Pat Buchanan, Charley Reese, The John Birch Society, the American Free Press or Ron Paul pink? Am I? I don't think so. No, I don't believe that everyone opposing the military action to unseat a dangerous, amd dictator who has killed hundreds of thousands of his own citizens are communists. However I do believe they either refuse to look at the facts, or they're incapable of grasping them. Ray A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
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-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 3/12/2003 9:07:19 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No, I don't believe that everyone opposing the military action to unseat a dangerous, amd dictator who has killed hundreds of thousands of his own citizens are communists. However I do believe they either refuse to look at the facts, or they're incapable of grasping them. So now it's our job to be the world's supercop? There are "dangerous dictators" all over the world...many who are far more dangerous than tin-horn Saddam Hussein. Why not go after Castro? Or Mugabe? Why Saddam? The facts are clear, this is none of our business and we are simple doing the bidding of Israel and big oil. War of aggression is illegal under international law and Nazis were hanged for it at Nuremburg. What's the difference here? We're going to attack and decimate a country that is not a threat to us in any way, shape or form. And then we're going to do the same to Syria, Iran, Libya, the Sudan and god knows who else. It's insanity. Meanwhile, as Napoleon Bush crosses the Rubicon our economy is failing... Bill. A HREF=""www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=""Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http://archive.jab.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=""ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
