CS: Pol-March In March Worries
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] What are the chances that when we all attend the March in March, that we will all be videoed, that video used against us upon application/renewal as proof of unsuitability to hold a SGC/FAC??? EW -- However, under the data protection act, you are within your rights to demand a copy of the video sections that you appear in. Mark Thomas of the 'Mark Thomas Product', Channel 4 is running a competion worth 500 to the best stunt captured on and retrieved from CCTV or surveillance video. I think his show's on Wednesday night and he pulls no punches with politicians, particularly Neil Hamilton who he described on last weeks show using various expletives J. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-British tourist killed by gunman in Jamaica
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ananova 16/01/01 A 28-year-old British tourist has been shot dead inside a taxi in the Jamaican resort of Montego Bay Police said that Melonie Clarke, two teenage family members and an unidentified man were riding in the taxi when the man shot Ms Clarke in the back. The man jumped from the vehicle and fled. Ms Clarke, a clerical worker from Birmingham, died in hospital. Police say they have not established a motive for the killing. The incident happened at just after midnight yesterday. -- Where's an ethical export policy on weapons when you need one? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Legal-Scottish Public Inquiry Law
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Come to think of it, why are we being denied access to some parts of the evidence by Lord Cullen? I can't remember any evidence at English Public Enquiries being kept back in this way, can anyone else assist my recollection on this? Is this to do with Scottish legal differences from English law? Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org -- The inquiry was required under Scottish law, this is why there wasn't one after Dunblane. I'm not sure of the exact power Cullen had to require some of the evidence to have a closure order placed on viewing it. There are powers in the law relating to legal proceedings and the identification of minors. I was told that the 100-year closure had been placed on Det. Hughes' report because he named minors in it. My personal view is that Cullen did it so that no-one could read about who was taken in by Hamilton to save them from being embarrassed and humiliated. In 100 years no-one will care, of course. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Legal-Guns for self-defence
From: George Wallace, [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is not our legislation which prevents us from having guns for self defence, but simply Home Office Guidance. When you say that Police are pushed along a certain route by "their masters, the Home Office", I am afraid it is nowadays the other way round. A Home Office official told me a while back that, "ACPO now tell us what they want to receive as advice". I suspect it was always thus. You may remember that it was the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police who recommended, in 1919, the establishment of arms caches around the country which could be issued to Government sympathisers in case of civil unrest. With many Countries accepting self defence, if perhaps only in the Home, as good reason for a gun, it may be possible to do something under our new Human Rights Act. It is surely unjust that the Irish, the Germans and who knows who else can defend themselves properly but we cannot. I have no money to pay for a challenge in the Courts but it ought to be possible to raise it with the help of Banks, Security Companies, Building Societies, Post Offices etc who would be the most obvious beneficiaries. George Wallace -- I don't think the Human Rights Act is really needed for this, all you need is some desperate soul who has a genuine need, then you can go for a judicial review. BTW, I have absolute proof that ACPO wrote the referee forms and got the HO to sign off on them despite objections from the NRA and others - surprise, surprise, the forms are hopeless and now they want them changed. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-UN USA backs gun rights at UN Summit
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] U.S. BACKS GUN RIGHTS AT U.N. SUMMIT Betsy Pisik THE WASHINGTON TIMES --- NEW YORK - U.S. officials attending a U.N. meeting on the spread of illicit small arms have pledged to protect legitimate gun owners from international disarmament efforts. Specialists from scores of nations are meeting here to develop a non-binding agreement aimed at halting the flood of illicit small arms and light weapons into the world's conflict zones. Specialists hope that by choking off the supply of easily transported, easily hidden weapons, armed struggle ultimately will become less lethal and more difficult to prolong. Because almost all illegal guns start out as legal guns, some observers are concerned that efforts to crack down on stolen or improperly transferred weapons ultimately will be felt by legitimate gun owners. "We have a couple of key redlines," one State Department official said of the discussions. "Number one, for obvious reasons, whatever comes out of this conference should in no way impose controls on who owns firearms, or what types of firearms. We don't feel that anything that imposes on domestic private ownership is something we will sign on to." The U.S. delegation at the conference includes representatives from the State, Defense and Treasury departments, as well as the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The National Rifle Association and other firearms-related organizations - both pro and con - are attending portions of the two-week meeting. So are international human rights monitors, children's advocates and similar nongovernmental groups. The session is largely procedural, but the final conference, to be held in New York July 9-20, is expected to produce a document setting out clear goals regarding the permanent marking, recording, certification and transit of small arms, with the goal of keeping legal guns from going bad. The proposed agreement would resemble a legally binding treaty on transnational organized crime that is being developed at U.N. offices in Vienna, Austria. "Something we would not want to see happening is to have this forum undercut the treaty prospects in Vienna. We're working very hard to keep that exercise on track," said a member of the U.S. delegation, who acknowledged that some nations would rather handle thorny issues, such as permanent marking, in the non-binding New York forum. Diplomats and observers alike caution against expecting much from the final agreement, which defines "small arms and light weapons" as including handguns, grenades, mortars, anti-tank guns and assault rifles. Speakers in the opening days of discussion last week repeatedly urged delegates not to allow national interests and rich profit margins to dictate a toothless resolution. Observers and diplomats say the African delegations seem to be pushing the hardest for a strong treaty, while the arms-producing nations - specifically the United States and other permanent Security Council members - are hitting the brakes. Sub-Saharan African has been more affected by conflict than any other region. Internal conflicts are simmering ominously or openly raging in Angola, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Guinea, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Burundi and Sudan. Many of these conflicts threaten to spill into neighboring, often unstable, nations. "We have high hopes of the July conference but at the same time rather low expectations," said Joost Hiltermann, director of the arms division of Human Rights Watch. "We consider it unlikely in the extreme that the conference will accomplish anything more than very minimal objectives, if those." Specifically, Mr. Hiltermann blasted the Security Council's five permanent members for undercutting disarmament efforts in the developing world. He said Russia and China "are completely opposed" to a meaningful treaty, while France "slips weapons to its allies in African conflict zones . . . asserting its neo-colonial interests by other means." The British approach to weapons exports "comes up short on ethics," he added. Mr. Hiltermann said it was still not clear what position the incoming Bush administration would take on the treaty. "We don't know where it stands," he said last week. "I would not be surprised if it was counting on Russia and China to torpedo this conference for it." U.S. officials say they are committed to curbing the spread of illicit small arms, but they don't want to do it by creating new U.N. offices, authorizing a lot of global meetings or banning specific weaponry. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-the man with the golden air pistol
From: Paul Bartomioli, [EMAIL PROTECTED] even better. in the original Dirty Harry, the holstered weapon is a 6" barrel. the one he shoots is an 8 3/8 inch target model with 3Ts. Target Trigger, Hammer, Stocks. 6" gun is plain jane model. paul bartomioli Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-John Wayne Winchester Custom Model
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try Kings Gunworks in Los Angeles. They did the large loop lever for Steve McQueen in the "Rifleman" TV series. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-March In March Worries
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, but as I.G. repeatedly pointed out you can lose your fac for being judged to be of bad character. So if someone in the firearms dept. believes that it is wrong to disagree with the government or to protest in anyway about anything you will be marked down as being unsuitable. -- Well, it would make for an interesting Section 44 appeal! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-March In March Worries
From: "Kay, Martin (DEI)", [EMAIL PROTECTED] While I agree with you that it's not (yet) illegal to demonstrate in support of our diminishing freedoms, I think that Earl is expressing a valid concern. Unless one marches under a banner obligingly announcing your club affiliation, I have more confidence in the practical difficulties of identification of individuals videoed/photographed participating in a march preventing such an abuse of liberty than in the legal niceties of the situation restraining the guardians of our freedom and public safety. Regards Martin Kay -- I can't see the point in worrying about it myself. It's self-defeating, the whole point in marching is to protest bans, remember. Or are people so attached to their lever-action rifles that the Government has so graciously permitted them to possess that they would prefer to cower at home for the next few years until they are banned as well? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-308 Round destroys MI
From: andrew, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't understand: are you saying that if the rifle in the article had a proof mark that it wouldn't have been destroyed? Do you have supporting evidence for this? The writer clearly places the blame on the ammunition anyway. Historically the purpose of the gun barrel proof acts were mainly a protectionism measure whose purpose was to restrict cheap imports that threatened the cosy cartel of english gun makers. For myself I first came to doubt the value of gun barrel proofing when I was an engineering apprentice and compared the methods used in proof testing load bearing components and how those tests were themselves validated against those of the gun barrel proof house. For a start the proof houses were not even using S.I. units! And it was only about a decade ago that they switched from recording pressure in (long) tons per square inch to Bars (1 bar = (approximately) 1 atmosphere). I also noticed that there was considerable variation in values recorded on the proof marks. I had two .22 pistols that I bought new in the early 1980's whose proof pressures were two tons apart! I subsequently made a point of looking at the proof marks of any firearm I came across and found that there was such a wide variation in recorded proof pressures for the same cartridge that I couldn't see that they were of any value at all or how they were derived. In addition I have examined a brand new ruger security six (.357 mag) that had a proof mark despite having a fairly conspicuous hole in the cylinder wall and a new Dan Wesson revolver that got through proof, despite the fact that that timing was so far out it was difficult to see how they got it to fire; let alone do it safely. However I have seen a batch of revolvers from a long established maker that that had failed proof due to the design of the muzzle crown! The proof house did however destroy the first Dan Wesson .357 Maximum that came into the country by a proof load that they calculated to produce over 100,000 lb. per square inch! I have also seen the remains of a .500 nitro double rifle (by Rudder) that had been rebarreled and the proof house debarreled! The barrels were not burst but forced off the breech face so far that the action was torn apart (I have the photo's). Reportedly the case had stretched by over half an inch under the pressure! On enquiring how the proof rounds were made up the gun maker was told that bullets were pulled from factory ammunition and a quantity of propellant was taken from some rounds and added to others to make the proof rounds. Apparently no attempt was made to actually pressure test these rounds before use. Not exactly ISO 9000! Naturally the proof house was not liable and the gun maker had to buy the customer another rifle as well as carry the cost of the rebarreling job; in all not much change from L15,000! -- I wasn't paying attention to the original post but on the other hand the Proof Houses have stopped a batch of very dodgy Baikal shotguns; stopped a shipment of dodgy Auto-Ordnance .45s, and also a fair variety of dodgy zinc alloy guns. However I am totally in agreement that the methods are not exactly scientifically sound in this day and age. As I understand it RORG had permission from the London Proof House to use their proofmark on the SA80 (the Pattern Room has an RORG proved HK G36, BTW). This is essentially a London proofmark with the letters NP stamped above it, which don't stand for nitro proof, they stand for Nottingham Proof. These barrels were not individually tested with proof loads, they tested a sample of barrels and then stamped them all with proofmarks. I'm pretty sure Beretta, HK and SIG-Sauer all do the same thing, which goes to show you what mass producers think of CIP. I'm all for the proving process, but the only people I can find who argue for the current way of doing it are people interested in protection of the UK gun market, which is totally daft. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Proofing
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dare I ask, what has the American Heritage Dictionary got to do with the English language? I would consider the custodian of the English language to be the Oxford English Dictionary. Bob Steve, Bob, Bob: Toss an egg in my direction, will you? (You missed!!) grin Um, let's see . . . This wasn't meant as a 'mine is better than yours' kinda thing. Actually, the American Heritage dictionary references the OED for many entries, and includes most unique American words and phrases that have come to common usage, and even some that are no longer is use. Now, what I really want to know, is what happened to your copy of the OED, because my copy has reference to the word 'Proofed'. You'll forgive me -- I hope -- that I am relegated to using the rather small (and almost useless) magnifying glass which comes with the issue, and that seems only to exacerbate reading the fine print. The devil is really in those details! Allow me to direct your attention to the index heading "Proof-Sheet". Thereunder, you should find the entry: 1884 World 3 Dec. 15/2 The outcome is a masterpiece of etching which is being 'proofed'. Following that are two additional entries for 'proofed', one of which I referenced earlier. Say, do you want that egg back? -- [=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=--\ [=*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. [APIT .50) [=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=--/ ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-308 Round destroys MI
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Worth a look, even to remind us all of the need for proofing http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762d.html Tom C Steve, Tom, I wonder if the bullet was ever recovered? Also, it would seem that maybe the contents of the casing might have enough residue to indicate by chemical analysis the formulation of the propellent. Stuff like that is the food for nightmares. -- [=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=--\ [=*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. [APIT .50) [=*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=--/ ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-John Wayne Winchester Custom Model
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't think it was invented by John Wayne, Robert Stack used one in "The Rifleman" but I'm not sure which was filmed first. Steve. "Stagecoach" featured this rifle and that was 1939 I believe. Jonathan Laws Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Careless cops?
From: "D.F.Mallard", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just caught a snippet on Radio 2 news at 6 O'Clock, apparently two firearms officers have been suspended after 15 rounds of ammunition went missing from their ARV. It is thought to have fallen out of the vehicle whilst still in the magazine! I think they mentioned Nottingham (not sure, too busy dodging other traffic). Regards Mally -- Sounds like they lost a pistol magazine. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-John Wayne Winchester Custom Model
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The "Rifleman" TV series was first. Both John Wayne Commemorative (gold engraved) and regular production blue models have been produced by Winchester. Don't have data handy as to years/production runs. John Rickards Fairfax, VA Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-John Wayne Winchester Custom Model
From: Paul Bartomioli, [EMAIL PROTECTED] uh, excuse me. Chuck Connors, former pro football and baseball player, played the Rifleman on TV in the US. paul bartomioli -- I'm sure Robert Stack was in that show, I even remember an article in the American Rifleman where they interviewed him about it. Did they change actors? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
