Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg (was: RE: No stderr output)
On 10 Jan 2002 at 20:55, Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
[cgf wrote:]
If this doesn't do it, then I think the best plan is to find help from
another mailing list. Basic shell questions are not really appropriate
here -- especially given the recent volume we've been experiencing.
I've been cogitating for a while that it could be mutually beneficial to
inexperienced users and regulars' blood pressures alike if the Cygwin
mailing list page listed a few concrete URLs to such newbie
lists/newsgroups/FAQs etc, and at the same time reworked the wording on the
description of this particular list.
Oh yes. I can tell you from a semi-novice POV that this is a correct
insight. The wording (on that page at the RedHat Cygwin WWW site) that
describes and therefore implicitly invites and directs towards the Cygwin
mailing list could be re-written to important benefit for all, including
both the tired veterans and the clooless noobies who think they are reading
ask us anything at all here about using Cygwin, we'll get you fixed up:
Currently it says, If you have questions about how to use Cygwin, or
any of its tools (bash, gcc, make, etc.), this is the list for you.
That means: If you have any question whatsoever regarding anything you
can associate somehow with Cygwin, post it here.
can associate being the most significant phrase in this point. The
trouble is that experts' notions of *where* the boundary between OT for
Cygwin lies and the noobie notions of where it lies (or that such a thing
might exist, more to the point), is potentially extremely different, and
whole sets (myriads, hecatomes) of assumptions need to be examined for
correctness, which apparently aren't:
- can one safely assume that a noobie who finds Cygwin grasps that the
tools that are packed with cygwin (bash, login, man, for example) aren't
specific to Cygwin at all but long predate it, and
- can one safely assume that noobies will think these tools that i am
given with Cygwin run the same 'on cygwin' as they do on any Uni* -like
platform (and therefore general documentation 'out there' will apply too),
and
- can one safely assume that noobies who might even guess at the first two
points might not think anyway that maybe I'll find friendlier, more
sympathetic folks to hold my trembling timorous hand here, than I would if
I ventured onto onto the Wierd Wild Web in search of generalized help on
these tools? (Point of this last is not to characterize the cygwin list as
nasty or to propose that it self-characterize this way, but to suggest
that a LITTLE warning of a slightly stern-sounding nature at the front
door might be expeditious and appropriate given that folks on this list
BAL [By And Large] clearly DON'T want anymore to answer questions like
what does man do or how do I login to bash).
It may be that In The Ancient Past most people who installed Cygwin were
experienced Uni* users who longed for familiar tools in some kind of
circumstantial Windoze exile they were enduring, but this also may not be a
safe assumption anymore, if it ever was (IMO is not, since I knew little
about Uni* when I began using Cygwin several years ago). So this means an
entire philosophical framework (i.e., the Uni* Way -- small user-
configurable tools chained together in innumerable combinations to
accomplish novel tasks, rather than Monolithic User Interfaces from one
company where all the parts are considered more-or-less to be the Operating
System itself... and only conventional tasks are allowed to 'exist') may
be lacking for noobies of this description.
Yep, assumptions lie near the root of cygwin List unhappiness.
That's simply not the intention of the list (at least since I've been
around), nor should it be, but the description simply gives no
indication of the true intent, i.e. Cygwin-specific questions only
need apply.
Now as for where best to send people, I have no idea (maybe some can just
point into the appropriate section of the FAQ). But here's a rough outline
of what I'm thinking:
{snip}
Unless there is one single extremely knowledgeable and encyclopedically-
oriented person who knows where to send people (and such people do exist I
think, but whether one will care to undertake this is another question)
then I think that a little project (or a little coordinated multi-person
collaboration, for lovers of ornate terminology!) needs to be created to
develop and verify a list of
resources to send such visitors to.
The task (of writing up re-directions for some of these categories or
inquiries) can be done once, -- to set up more precise explanations and
info at the site; or it can be done as its been done, repeated over and
over again as similar questions appear on the list and are answered one at
a time.
Best,
Soren Andersen
--
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Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg (was: RE: No stderr output)
A while ago I was helping students that were new to bash and UNIX and I wrote a little guide in HTML. Late I put together Cygwin-Lite (Cygwin on a floppy) and added the guide. This was before the setup.exe changes that made a minimal install easy. I've stopped updating Cygwin-Lite but I think the webpage is useful: http://cygwin-lite.sourceforge.net/html/begin.html At the bottom there are lots of links to other useful information. Anybody want to take a look and try to guess what I was smoking at the time? Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:55:54 -0600 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Christopher Faylor [snip] For Bourne style shells I use runme filename 21 This redirects stdout first and then stderr to whereever stdout is pointing. If this doesn't do it, then I think the best plan is to find help from another mailing list. Basic shell questions are not really appropriate here -- especially given the recent volume we've been experiencing. I've been cogitating for a while that it could be mutually beneficial to inexperienced users and regulars' blood pressures alike if the Cygwin mailing list page listed a few concrete URLs to such newbie lists/newsgroups/FAQs etc, and at the same time reworked the wording on the description of this particular list. Currently it says, If you have questions about how to use Cygwin, or any of its tools (bash, gcc, make, etc.), this is the list for you. That means: If you have any question whatsoever regarding anything you can associate somehow with Cygwin, post it here. That's simply not the intention of the list (at least since I've been around), nor should it be, but the description simply gives no indication of the true intent, i.e. Cygwin-specific questions only need apply. Now as for where best to send people, I have no idea (maybe some can just point into the appropriate section of the FAQ). But here's a rough outline of what I'm thinking: Help With The Tools Packaged With Cygwin Can't figure out the bash command line syntax? Don't know what a HOME is? What-ular expressions? These are general Unix sorts of questions , and you'll have the best luck getting help at one of these many fine resources: Unix basics: http://wherever/ Bash up the wazoo: news://bash.whatever/ Regular Expressions Revealed: mailinglist://heretoo/ Cygwin Specific Mailing Lists = cygwin-xfree: (same description, note the clever inversion of these two, thus guaranteeing that no xfree questions get into the main list). cygwin: A high volume list solely for the discussion of Cygwin-specific issues/problems/etc. If you have questions specifically related to the Cygwin ports of the tools, *not* regarding the tools themselves, post here. Cygwin Developers Mailing Lists === Heaven help you if you post something off topic to one of these: cygwin-apps: blah blah blah etc etc Comments? Questions other than what are you smoking? ;-) -- Gary R. Van Sickle Brewer. Patriot. __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg (was: RE: No stderr output)
At 09:55 PM 1/10/2002, Gary R. Van Sickle wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Christopher Faylor [snip] For Bourne style shells I use runme filename 21 This redirects stdout first and then stderr to whereever stdout is pointing. If this doesn't do it, then I think the best plan is to find help from another mailing list. Basic shell questions are not really appropriate here -- especially given the recent volume we've been experiencing. I've been cogitating for a while that it could be mutually beneficial to inexperienced users and regulars' blood pressures alike if the Cygwin mailing list page listed a few concrete URLs to such newbie lists/newsgroups/FAQs etc, and at the same time reworked the wording on the description of this particular list. Currently it says, If you have questions about how to use Cygwin, or any of its tools (bash, gcc, make, etc.), this is the list for you. That means: If you have any question whatsoever regarding anything you can associate somehow with Cygwin, post it here. That's simply not the intention of the list (at least since I've been around), nor should it be, but the description simply gives no indication of the true intent, i.e. Cygwin-specific questions only need apply. Now as for where best to send people, I have no idea (maybe some can just point into the appropriate section of the FAQ). But here's a rough outline of what I'm thinking: Help With The Tools Packaged With Cygwin Can't figure out the bash command line syntax? Don't know what a HOME is? What-ular expressions? These are general Unix sorts of questions , and you'll have the best luck getting help at one of these many fine resources: Unix basics: http://wherever/ Bash up the wazoo: news://bash.whatever/ Regular Expressions Revealed: mailinglist://heretoo/ Cygwin Specific Mailing Lists = cygwin-xfree: (same description, note the clever inversion of these two, thus guaranteeing that no xfree questions get into the main list). cygwin: A high volume list solely for the discussion of Cygwin-specific issues/problems/etc. If you have questions specifically related to the Cygwin ports of the tools, *not* regarding the tools themselves, post here. Cygwin Developers Mailing Lists === Heaven help you if you post something off topic to one of these: cygwin-apps: blah blah blah etc etc Comments? Questions other than what are you smoking? ;-) Great! Want to suggest a patch for this page? Larry Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] RFK Partners, Inc. http://www.rfk.com 838 Washington Street (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office Holliston, MA 01746 (508) 893-9889 - FAX -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg (was: RE: No stderr output)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Christopher Faylor [snip] For Bourne style shells I use runme filename 21 This redirects stdout first and then stderr to whereever stdout is pointing. If this doesn't do it, then I think the best plan is to find help from another mailing list. Basic shell questions are not really appropriate here -- especially given the recent volume we've been experiencing. I've been cogitating for a while that it could be mutually beneficial to inexperienced users and regulars' blood pressures alike if the Cygwin mailing list page listed a few concrete URLs to such newbie lists/newsgroups/FAQs etc, and at the same time reworked the wording on the description of this particular list. Currently it says, If you have questions about how to use Cygwin, or any of its tools (bash, gcc, make, etc.), this is the list for you. That means: If you have any question whatsoever regarding anything you can associate somehow with Cygwin, post it here. That's simply not the intention of the list (at least since I've been around), nor should it be, but the description simply gives no indication of the true intent, i.e. Cygwin-specific questions only need apply. Now as for where best to send people, I have no idea (maybe some can just point into the appropriate section of the FAQ). But here's a rough outline of what I'm thinking: Help With The Tools Packaged With Cygwin Can't figure out the bash command line syntax? Don't know what a HOME is? What-ular expressions? These are general Unix sorts of questions , and you'll have the best luck getting help at one of these many fine resources: Unix basics: http://wherever/ Bash up the wazoo: news://bash.whatever/ Regular Expressions Revealed: mailinglist://heretoo/ Cygwin Specific Mailing Lists = cygwin-xfree: (same description, note the clever inversion of these two, thus guaranteeing that no xfree questions get into the main list). cygwin: A high volume list solely for the discussion of Cygwin-specific issues/problems/etc. If you have questions specifically related to the Cygwin ports of the tools, *not* regarding the tools themselves, post here. Cygwin Developers Mailing Lists === Heaven help you if you post something off topic to one of these: cygwin-apps: blah blah blah etc etc Comments? Questions other than what are you smoking? ;-) -- Gary R. Van Sickle Brewer. Patriot. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg (was: RE: No stderr output)
=== - Original Message - From: Gary R. Van Sickle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Comments? Questions other than what are you smoking? ;-) How long have you been somking it :}-. Rob -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
