Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg Has Been Reorged
- Original Message - From: "Gary R. Van Sickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Uh, guys: http://cygwin.com/lists.html. Cool - Soren, you're off the hook :}. > Pretty well done, whoever did it. And it's been up since at least the crack of > noon. Yes, CVS will tell if you're interested. I haven't looked but my hunch is Chris. > Let this be a lesson to everyone to: > 1. RTFM > 2. STFML and TFWS TFSW? Also, WTFWPFC! Rob -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg Has Been Reorged
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf > Of Robert Collins > > > -Original Message- > > From: Soren Andersen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > So what I am addressing is a perceived (on my part) need for > > Soren, this is *discussing* it, if you wish to address it, then > contribute a patch - to the web site, the FAQ - wherever you think it > should go. > > I don't say this to cut short the discussion, but because no-one has > disagreed in any substantial way with what you are saying, and no-one > has steppted forth to do it Uh, guys: http://cygwin.com/lists.html. Pretty well done, whoever did it. And it's been up since at least the crack of noon. Let this be a lesson to everyone to: 1. RTFM 2. STFML and TFWS 3. WTFPMA[1] the next time a newless cluebie stumbles in here and for some reason the urge to bite his head off rears its ugly head. [1] Watch The Fricken Potty Mouth Abbreviations. -- Gary R. Van Sickle Brewer. Patriot. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg
On 15 Jan 2002 at 10:41, Robert Collins wrote: > Soren, this is *discussing* it, if you wish to address it, then > contribute a patch - to the web site, the FAQ - wherever you think it > should go. I'll get to work on it, for sure. > I don't say this to cut short the discussion, but because no-one has > disagreed in any substantial way with what you are saying, and no-one has > steppted forth to do it Oops! I must be slipping ... if I'm not getting somebody to strongly disagree with me ...heh heh Best regards, Soren Andersen -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg
On 14 Jan 2002 at 21:32, Robert Collins wrote: > contribute patches. Contribute the links *you know* (come on' after more > than a years use you must have collected a few useful links). Don't worry > about whether they are the best links, that's what open source doco is for! Well, yes, exactly! Collectively this List's readers must possess in one form or another a prodigious pile of reference knowledge about where to look for answers. If we pool our knowledge we will achieve the several benefits of both lowering the noise level on the List (perhaps) and making it more interesting, and also of helping others (and probably ourselves) to more quickly target rich sources for areas where enriched knowledge is required. > If *you* don't, and noone else *does*, then nothing will happen, and in 6 > months Chris will say "I've been cogitating..." Sounds pretty frightening! ;-) I am picturing "Spike" on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (American TV show, sorry for the non-global reference) emerging from the shadows with that malevolent smirk on his face, saying "I've been cogitating.." ;-[ Soren Andersen -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg
> -Original Message- > From: Soren Andersen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > So what I am addressing is a perceived (on my part) need for Soren, this is *discussing* it, if you wish to address it, then contribute a patch - to the web site, the FAQ - wherever you think it should go. I don't say this to cut short the discussion, but because no-one has disagreed in any substantial way with what you are saying, and no-one has steppted forth to do it Rob -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg
On 14 Jan 2002 at 7:59, Tim Prince wrote: > And, without experience specific to Cygwin, no one knows exactly which > variations on the standard behavior of free software will apply on Cygwin. I was hoping and expecting that someone would make this observation. It's one that I think is important to keep in mind -- there have had to be, I think I can be confident in stating, *some* particular differences in the way that some things "work" on cygwin vs. how they work on other platforms that are considered Unixen (with GNU/Linux being the obvious major reference point at this stage of the game). I didn't really have in mind examples like this one however: > For example, has anyone documented the ways in which cygwin > differs from linux in application of code and data alignments? Does > anyone think the newlib mailing list is a helpful place? According to my understanding I see this as being eminently ON-topic for the cygwin List (or even for cygwin-developers), whereas I was addressing the area of topics of a more general user nature, where that user is not someone trying to write code for/to Cygwin, but rather was at a much less high-level engineering-oriented phase of "usership," and where there might therefore be a question whether the question is Cygwin-OT or not. In case it isn't at all clear what I might mean, say I might be thinking of someone who is trying to build standard Open Source or Free Software packages on Cygwin -- not trying to extend or doing a major porting job to some app or write an entirely new application, but simply trying to "get [foo] to build." I have spent countless hours trying to get pretty widely- used packages to build using Cygwin tools and trying to understand whether and how my Cygwin environment was "broken" as the expression goes. So what I am addressing is a perceived (on my part) need for clarification or contemplation about what comprises a user question that falls within the intent of the main cygwin List. Somebody here will (or can or has) stated "what is the List intent" very succinctly and will probably probably feel that they've nailed it down and it doesn't deserve or need lots more discussion, and may be so confident in their assertion that readers will be drawn to agree; but a little time and observation may reveal that there are many special cases where a gray area is entered and the brief and brusque and cut-and-dried doesn't seem to have been enough to cover everything in that light. A minor but good case in point that occurs to me is the recent discussion on List that dealt with enabling certain key-bindings in bash (msg # 42891, "Copy and Paste into Console"). One of those bindings was to make the 'insert' key do something useful (paste from the Windows clipboard into the cygwin bash console). IMO this kind of question and the knowledge that was shared is very OT because, for one thing, it is Windows-specific (the clipboard as such doesn't exist on other platforms, although surely analogous entities must..). So this is an instance of a divergence between "standard" behavior of a Gnu tool and a "special behavior or modification" that this tool's Cygwin port has. For another thing, I think it can be seen as reasonable to assert that having an efficient and "confortable" shell environment to work in is a prerequisite for a lot of users to getting more specific and interesting work done. It certainly is for me. I'd like to think that the Cygwin project's folks would see this as an area that needs support, very legitimately. It may not particularly *interest* some individual who is of capability such that they are preoccupied with the innards of Cygwin or some major piece of Cygwin, but the mere fact that it isn't especially stimulating to such individuals to deal with such questions doesn't make the asking of them invalid or the effort to provide helpful and accessible support on them unimportant. This is what FAQs are for, of course, and a lot of info exists in them. FAQs are only any good if a user finds them and reads them, of course. And they may need constant upkeep and re-writing to be really useful. Best Regards, Soren Andersen -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg
Here is a good place to look for info about flex. I found some good stuff about bison there. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/ Have you ever tried using Daves Quick Search Bar? It's a convenient helpful search tool. http://notesbydave.com/toolbar/searchdoc.htm --- Tim Prince <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If there were a flex FAQ or a flex > mailing list, would it not show up on gcc.gnu.org or a newsgroup or > google search? = Fractal A.[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg
Robert Collins wrote: > >>given with Cygwin run the same 'on cygwin' as they do on any >> > Uni* -like > >>platform (and therefore general documentation 'out there' will apply >> > too), > >>From experience on this list, I can assert that this is an unsafe > assumption. Many many many questions are asked that are solveable by > simple examination of existing documentation - like the recent lex->flex > question (while I didn't know that answer, that's gotta be a flex FAQ!). > Well, I'm sorry about asking, but I'd been looking for the key to that for 2 years, and only recently has cygwin come up to speed to be able to build and run my application. With the help of the latest incarnation of 'info flex' and recent improvements in vim syntax coloring, I did find both the latent bugs and the features which aren't supported exactly the same by lex and flex. If there were a flex FAQ or a flex mailing list, would it not show up on gcc.gnu.org or a newsgroup or google search? > >>BAL [By And Large] clearly DON'T want anymore to answer questions like >>"what does man do" or "how do I login to bash"). >> > > Good point. > But another one where there are minor gotchas for people who have 20 years experience on Unix with shells which pre-date free software. And, without experience specific to Cygwin, no one knows exactly which variations on the standard behavior of free software will apply on Cygwin. For example, has anyone documented the ways in which cygwin differs from linux in application of code and data alignments? Does anyone think the newlib mailing list is a helpful place? -- Tim Prince [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg
On Monday 14 Jan 02, Robert Collins writes: > > The task (of writing up re-directions for some of these categories or > > inquiries) can be done once, -- to set up more precise explanations > and > > info at the site; or it can be done as its been done, repeated over > and > > over again as similar questions appear on the list and are answered > one at > > a time. > > I can make an assertion here: > contribute patches. Contribute the links *you know* (come on' after more > than a years use you must have collected a few useful links). Don't > worry about whether they are the best links, that's what open source > doco is for! > > If *you* don't, and noone else *does*, then nothing will happen, and in > 6 months Chris will say "I've been cogitating..." As you might expect, this has come up before. I would consider devoting space in the FAQ for pointers to basic UNIX resources. However, I'm not the person to locate the resources or judge which are suitable and which are crap. (After 20 years of UNIX, my skills are such that man pages and google are enough!) If someone can distill a few good resource pointers, I'll provide an item in the FAQ for them. That is, when I get my home internet connection working... :-( Regards, David (Cygwin FAQ maintainer) -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg
- Original Message - From: "Soren Andersen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:17 PM > - can one safely assume that a noobie who finds Cygwin grasps that the > tools that are packed with cygwin (bash, login, man, for example) aren't > specific to Cygwin at all but long predate it, and Can we? The newbie who finds cygwin because they are told to by a friend, may not have any unix background, and therefore see *nothing* to cause them to realise that the tools come from elsewhere - particularly Win32 users, where MS provide *everything* (or so they may think). > - can one safely assume that noobies will think "these tools that i am > given with Cygwin run the same 'on cygwin' as they do on any Uni* -like > platform (and therefore general documentation 'out there' will apply too), >From experience on this list, I can assert that this is an unsafe assumption. Many many many questions are asked that are solveable by simple examination of existing documentation - like the recent lex->flex question (while I didn't know that answer, that's gotta be a flex FAQ!). > and > - can one safely assume that noobies who might even guess at the first two > points might not think anyway that "maybe I'll find friendlier, more > sympathetic folks to hold my trembling timorous hand here, than I would if > I ventured onto onto the Wierd Wild Web in search of generalized help on > these tools"? (Point of this last is not to characterize the cygwin list as > "nasty" or to propose that it self-characterize this way, but to suggest > that a LITTLE warning of a slightly stern-sounding nature at the "front > door" might be expeditious and appropriate given that folks on this list > BAL [By And Large] clearly DON'T want anymore to answer questions like > "what does man do" or "how do I login to bash"). Good point. > > Unless there is one single extremely knowledgeable and encyclopedically- > oriented person who knows where to send people (and such people do exist I > think, but whether one will care to undertake this is another question) > then I think that a little project (or a little "coordinated multi-person > collaboration", for lovers of ornate terminology!) needs to be created to > develop and verify a list of > resources to send such visitors to. > > The task (of writing up re-directions for some of these categories or > inquiries) can be done once, -- to set up more precise explanations and > info at the site; or it can be done as its been done, repeated over and > over again as similar questions appear on the list and are answered one at > a time. I can make an assertion here: contribute patches. Contribute the links *you know* (come on' after more than a years use you must have collected a few useful links). Don't worry about whether they are the best links, that's what open source doco is for! If *you* don't, and noone else *does*, then nothing will happen, and in 6 months Chris will say "I've been cogitating..." As a side note: Perhaps we can have a homepage link in setup.ini (and thus the package listing too) for each package? Rob -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg (was: RE: No stderr output)
On 10 Jan 2002 at 20:55, Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
[cgf wrote:]
> > If this doesn't do it, then I think the best plan is to find help from
> > another mailing list. Basic shell questions are not really appropriate
> > here -- especially given the recent volume we've been experiencing.
> I've been cogitating for a while that it could be mutually beneficial to
> inexperienced users and regulars' blood pressures alike if the Cygwin
> mailing list page listed a few concrete URLs to such "newbie"
> lists/newsgroups/FAQs etc, and at the same time reworked the wording on the
> description of this particular list.
Oh yes. I can tell you from a semi-novice POV that this is a correct
insight. The wording (on that page at the RedHat Cygwin WWW site) that
describes and therefore implicitly invites and directs towards the Cygwin
mailing list could be re-written to important benefit for all, including
both the tired veterans and the clooless noobies who think they are reading
"ask us anything at all here about using Cygwin, we'll get you fixed up":
> Currently it says, "If you have questions about how to use Cygwin, or
> any of its tools (bash, gcc, make, etc.), this is the list for you."
> That means: "If you have any question whatsoever regarding anything you
> can associate somehow with Cygwin, post it here."
"can associate" being the most significant phrase in this point. The
trouble is that experts' notions of *where* the boundary between OT for
Cygwin lies and the noobie notions of where it lies (or that such a thing
might exist, more to the point), is potentially extremely different, and
whole sets (myriads, hecatomes) of assumptions need to be examined for
correctness, which apparently aren't:
- can one safely assume that a noobie who finds Cygwin grasps that the
tools that are packed with cygwin (bash, login, man, for example) aren't
specific to Cygwin at all but long predate it, and
- can one safely assume that noobies will think "these tools that i am
given with Cygwin run the same 'on cygwin' as they do on any Uni* -like
platform (and therefore general documentation 'out there' will apply too),
and
- can one safely assume that noobies who might even guess at the first two
points might not think anyway that "maybe I'll find friendlier, more
sympathetic folks to hold my trembling timorous hand here, than I would if
I ventured onto onto the Wierd Wild Web in search of generalized help on
these tools"? (Point of this last is not to characterize the cygwin list as
"nasty" or to propose that it self-characterize this way, but to suggest
that a LITTLE warning of a slightly stern-sounding nature at the "front
door" might be expeditious and appropriate given that folks on this list
BAL [By And Large] clearly DON'T want anymore to answer questions like
"what does man do" or "how do I login to bash").
It may be that In The Ancient Past most people who installed Cygwin were
experienced Uni* users who longed for familiar tools in some kind of
circumstantial Windoze exile they were enduring, but this also may not be a
safe assumption anymore, if it ever was (IMO is not, since I knew little
about Uni* when I began using Cygwin several years ago). So this means an
entire philosophical framework (i.e., the Uni* Way -- small user-
configurable tools chained together in innumerable combinations to
accomplish novel tasks, rather than Monolithic User Interfaces from one
company where all the parts are considered more-or-less to be the Operating
System itself... and only "conventional" tasks are allowed to 'exist') may
be lacking for noobies of this description.
Yep, assumptions lie near the root of cygwin List unhappiness.
> That's simply not the intention of the list (at least since I've been
> around), nor should it be, but the description simply gives no
> indication of the true intent, i.e. "Cygwin-specific questions only
> need apply".
> Now as for where best to send people, I have no idea (maybe some can just
> point into the appropriate section of the FAQ). But here's a rough outline
> of what I'm thinking:
{snip}
Unless there is one single extremely knowledgeable and encyclopedically-
oriented person who knows where to send people (and such people do exist I
think, but whether one will care to undertake this is another question)
then I think that a little project (or a little "coordinated multi-person
collaboration", for lovers of ornate terminology!) needs to be created to
develop and verify a list of
resources to send such visitors to.
The task (of writing up re-directions for some of these categories or
inquiries) can be done once, -- to set up more precise explanations and
info at the site; or it can be done as its been done, repeated over and
over again as similar questions appear on the list and are answered one at
a time.
Best,
Soren Andersen
--
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Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg (was: RE: No stderr output)
- Original Message - From: "Joshua Franklin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > and added the guide. This was before the setup.exe > changes that made a minimal install easy. I've > stopped updating Cygwin-Lite but I think the webpage > is useful: Yes!, thank you, thank you! I was starting to wonder if anyone did appreciate those changes! Rob -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg (was: RE: No stderr output)
At 09:55 PM 1/10/2002, Gary R. Van Sickle wrote: > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf > > Of Christopher Faylor > > > >[snip] > > > >For Bourne style shells I use > > > > > >runme > filename 2>&1 > > > > > >This redirects stdout first and then stderr to whereever stdout is > > >pointing. > > > > If this doesn't do it, then I think the best plan is to find help from > > another mailing list. Basic shell questions are not really appropriate > > here -- especially given the recent volume we've been experiencing. > >I've been cogitating for a while that it could be mutually beneficial to >inexperienced users and regulars' blood pressures alike if the Cygwin mailing >list page listed a few concrete URLs to such "newbie" lists/newsgroups/FAQs etc, >and at the same time reworked the wording on the description of this particular >list. Currently it says, "If you have questions about how to use Cygwin, or any >of its tools (bash, gcc, make, etc.), this is the list for you." That means: >"If you have any question whatsoever regarding anything you can associate >somehow with Cygwin, post it here." That's simply not the intention of the list >(at least since I've been around), nor should it be, but the description simply >gives no indication of the true intent, i.e. "Cygwin-specific questions only >need apply". > >Now as for where best to send people, I have no idea (maybe some can just point >into the appropriate section of the FAQ). But here's a rough outline of what >I'm thinking: > > >Help With The Tools Packaged With Cygwin > > >Can't figure out the bash command line syntax? Don't know what a HOME is? >What-ular expressions? These are general Unix sorts of questions , and you'll >have the best luck getting help at one of these many fine resources: > >Unix basics: http://wherever/ >Bash up the wazoo: news://bash.whatever/ >Regular Expressions Revealed: mailinglist://heretoo/ > >Cygwin Specific Mailing Lists >= > >cygwin-xfree: (same description, note the clever inversion of these two, thus >guaranteeing that no xfree questions get into the main list). > >cygwin: A high volume list solely for the discussion of Cygwin-specific >issues/problems/etc. If you have questions specifically related to the Cygwin >ports of the tools, *not* regarding the tools themselves, post here. > >Cygwin Developers Mailing Lists >=== > >Heaven help you if you post something off topic to one of these: > >cygwin-apps: blah blah blah >etc >etc > > >Comments? Questions other than "what are you smoking"? ;-) Great! Want to suggest a patch for this page? Larry Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] RFK Partners, Inc. http://www.rfk.com 838 Washington Street (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office Holliston, MA 01746 (508) 893-9889 - FAX -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Proposed Mailing List Page Reorg (was: RE: No stderr output)
=== - Original Message - From: "Gary R. Van Sickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Comments? Questions other than "what are you smoking"? ;-) How long have you been somking it :}-. Rob -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
