Re: Big Brother is Real
Randall R Schulz wrote: I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to just say no to Microsoft. And in some cases you can't say no! A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on a Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even close to resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a daily basis. At the time I was a representative to the X/Open organization and was heavily involved in the system benchmarking and conformance testing to ensure that all equipment supplied on several large contracts adhered to the X/Open standards. That is until the M$ legal suites showed up in force and muscled there way in through legal threats. Can you imagine that? NASA, as big of a government organization as it is, being muscled and pushed around by Microsloths lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open complient operating system? Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come close to being X/Open complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in its infant stages of development. The short story is that M$ intimidated NASA into creating a contract just for M$ to sell their stuff even though they were not compliant with any of the benchmark tests or feature lists required in order to compete. If you can't compete technically (or just need some spare cash on hand), just threaten to sue. Thank you team Cygwin! ;-) (These are my own thoughts and opinions and in no way reflect my current or past employers positions in any way) 8*} -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Thursday 03 April 2003 06:54, Steve Coleman wrote: Randall R Schulz wrote: I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to just say no to Microsoft. And in some cases you can't say no! A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on a Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even close to resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a daily basis. At the time I was a representative to the X/Open organization and was heavily involved in the system benchmarking and conformance testing to ensure that all equipment supplied on several large contracts adhered to the X/Open standards. That is until the M$ legal suites showed up in force and muscled there way in through legal threats. Can you imagine that? NASA, as big of a government organization as it is, being muscled and pushed around by Microsloths lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open complient operating system? Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come close to being X/Open complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in its infant stages of development. Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them. -- Tim Prince -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
Tim, At 07:28 2003-04-03, you wrote: ... Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them. We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company. -- Lily Tomlin -- Tim Prince Randall Schulz -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
Steve Coleman wrote: Randall R Schulz wrote: I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to just say no to Microsoft. And in some cases you can't say no! You can always say no. You may or may not always wish to deal with the consequences of saying no. If you don't want to deal with the consequences of saying no then you have actively choosen to say yes. A long time ago (showing my age here - lol) when I worked for NASA, I first cut my teeth on Cygwin out of desperation to get my job done on a Wintel box. The very fact that it did not possess anything even close to resembling real POSIX was a constant thorn in my side on a daily basis. At the time I was a representative to the X/Open organization and was heavily involved in the system benchmarking and conformance testing to ensure that all equipment supplied on several large contracts adhered to the X/Open standards. That is until the M$ legal suites showed up in force and muscled there way in through legal threats. Can you imagine that? NASA, as big of a government organization as it is, being muscled and pushed around by Microsloths lawyers to accept Windows as an X/Open complient operating system? No I can't imagine that! Somebody, somewhere decided to say yes instead of no. That is not being pushed to say yes. Without Cygwin Windoze would never even come close to being X/Open complient, and Cygwin at that point was still in its infant stages of development. The short story is that M$ intimidated NASA into creating a contract just for M$ to sell their stuff even though they were not compliant with any of the benchmark tests or feature lists required in order to compete. If you can't compete technically (or just need some spare cash on hand), just threaten to sue. Thank you team Cygwin! ;-) (These are my own thoughts and opinions and in no way reflect my current or past employers positions in any way) 8*} -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
Tim Prince wrote: Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them. How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm curious because as you even admit many customers depend on cygwin so it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers from running Cygwin. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Andrew DeFaria wrote: Tim Prince wrote: Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them. How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm curious because as you even admit many customers depend on cygwin so it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers from running Cygwin. Microsoft doesn't stop their customers from running Cygwin, it introduces API changes that are incompatible with previous versions, and thus cause programs like Cygwin to not run. Whether this is deliberate or accidental remains debatable. Igor -- http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/ |\ _,,,---,,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] ZZZzz /,`.-'`'-. ;-;;,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski '---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow! Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: Big Brother is Real
Can someone elaborate on exactly which APIs have changed incompatibly (in 64-bit Windows)? I'm only mildly familiar with the 64-bit story, but my understanding is that the the 64-bit APIs are basically the same as 32-bit (with the natural widening of types) but given that the 64-bit API is 'new' in that there's no legacy (shipped, binary) code base to support, this is probably the best time to make API changes (in 64-bit) that repair bad design decisions and bad interface bugs and so made earlier (in 32-bit API, or maybe even 16-bit). Regardless, how does this affect Cygwin at all? The 32-bit subsystem on 64-bit Windows OSes should run 32-bit apps with no semantic changes -- that's its job, and I would be surprised if the behaviour of any 32-bit APIs was gratuitously different (although it's possible there are bugs -- worth reporting if that's the case). If you're trying to compile cygwin itself for 64-bit, well, you may need to make some cygwin source changes with #ifdefs, yes -- is that the objection here? stephan(); -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Igor Pechtchanski Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 8:31 AM To: Andrew DeFaria Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Andrew DeFaria wrote: Tim Prince wrote: Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them. How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm curious because as you even admit many customers depend on cygwin so it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers from running Cygwin. Microsoft doesn't stop their customers from running Cygwin, it introduces API changes that are incompatible with previous versions, and thus cause programs like Cygwin to not run. Whether this is deliberate or accidental remains debatable. Igor -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: Big Brother is Real
Note that the below was a general statement about API changes, not even referring to XP64 specifically. I do not use the newest Windows, and don't have enough expertise to reason about the specific API changes. These changes do happen (otherwise Cygwin wouldn't have to be ported to the newer versions of Windows), but, FWIW, I highly doubt that they are introduced to deliberately stifle *Cygwin* development. Just wanted to make this clear. Igor On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Stephan Mueller wrote: Can someone elaborate on exactly which APIs have changed incompatibly (in 64-bit Windows)? I'm only mildly familiar with the 64-bit story, but my understanding is that the the 64-bit APIs are basically the same as 32-bit (with the natural widening of types) but given that the 64-bit API is 'new' in that there's no legacy (shipped, binary) code base to support, this is probably the best time to make API changes (in 64-bit) that repair bad design decisions and bad interface bugs and so made earlier (in 32-bit API, or maybe even 16-bit). Regardless, how does this affect Cygwin at all? The 32-bit subsystem on 64-bit Windows OSes should run 32-bit apps with no semantic changes -- that's its job, and I would be surprised if the behaviour of any 32-bit APIs was gratuitously different (although it's possible there are bugs -- worth reporting if that's the case). If you're trying to compile cygwin itself for 64-bit, well, you may need to make some cygwin source changes with #ifdefs, yes -- is that the objection here? stephan(); -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Igor Pechtchanski Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 8:31 AM To: Andrew DeFaria Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Andrew DeFaria wrote: Tim Prince wrote: Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them. How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm curious because as you even admit many customers depend on cygwin so it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers from running Cygwin. Microsoft doesn't stop their customers from running Cygwin, it introduces API changes that are incompatible with previous versions, and thus cause programs like Cygwin to not run. Whether this is deliberate or accidental remains debatable. Igor -- http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/ |\ _,,,---,,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] ZZZzz /,`.-'`'-. ;-;;,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski '---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow! Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty. -- Leto II -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: RE: Big Brother is Real
-Original Message- From: Stephan Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 10:37:19 -0800 Subject: RE: Big Brother is Real Can someone elaborate on exactly which APIs have changed incompatibly (in 64-bit Windows)? I'm only mildly familiar with the 64-bit story, but my understanding is that the the 64-bit APIs are basically the same as 32-bit (with the natural widening of types) but given that the 64-bit API is 'new' in that there's no legacy (shipped, binary) code base to support, this is probably the best time to make API changes (in 64-bit) that repair bad design decisions and bad interface bugs and so made earlier (in 32-bit API, or maybe even 16-bit). Regardless, how does this affect Cygwin at all? The 32-bit subsystem on 64-bit Windows OSes should run 32-bit apps with no semantic changes -- that's its job, and I would be surprised if the behaviour of any 32-bit APIs was gratuitously different (although it's possible there are bugs -- worth reporting if that's the case). If you're trying to compile cygwin itself for 64-bit, well, you may need to make some cygwin source changes with #ifdefs, yes -- is that the objection here? stephan(); -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Igor Pechtchanski Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 8:31 AM To: Andrew DeFaria Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Andrew DeFaria wrote: Tim Prince wrote: Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them. How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm curious because as you even admit many customers depend on cygwin so it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers from running Cygwin. Microsoft doesn't stop their customers from running Cygwin, it introduces API changes that are incompatible with previous versions, and thus cause programs like Cygwin to not run. Whether this is deliberate or accidental remains debatable. Igor __ As I understand it, cygwin requires more compatibility than Microsoft guarantees between the 32-bit subsystem of WinXP64 and the 32-bit Windows OS, or even between beta and final versions of XP64. As Igor pointed out, we have no way of knowing whether breaking cygwin is deliberate or accidental. The price tag in $$ or volunteer hours to build a 64-bit native cygwin is more than anyone has been able to scrape up, so, yes, I'm talking about the 32-bit subsystem. It was quite useful at the time when it did support cygwin, even on those machines which have since had their anchor status confirmed. As even the native linux g77 for ia64 isn't competitive with g77 on XP32, or with gcc on ia64, I don't see any interest in a g77 cross compiler, and I'm not going there. I think each IA64 compiler development effort has far exceeded its initial budget. Tim Prince -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Re: Big Brother is Real
-Original Message- From: Randall R Schulz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 07:34:20 -0800 Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real Tim, At 07:28 2003-04-03, you wrote: ... Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them. We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company. -- Lily Tomlin __ They may care. I doubt their chances of overtaking linux-ia64 or making back their investment in XP64 this year are overwhelming. Tim Prince -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Re: Big Brother is Real
At 12:22 2003-04-03, Timothy C Prince wrote: ... We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company. -- Lily Tomlin __ They may care. I doubt their chances of overtaking linux-ia64 or making back their investment in XP64 this year are overwhelming. Tim Prince Tim, A serious response to a humorous remark is more humor. RRS -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 07:28:14AM -0800, Tim Prince wrote: Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, Wow. I had no idea I was so powerful. I think I need a raise. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 10:37:19AM -0800, Stephan Mueller wrote: Can someone elaborate on exactly which APIs have changed incompatibly (in 64-bit Windows)? I'm only mildly familiar with the 64-bit story, but my understanding is that the the 64-bit APIs are basically the same as 32-bit (with the natural widening of types) but given that the 64-bit API is 'new' in that there's no legacy (shipped, binary) code base to support, this is probably the best time to make API changes (in 64-bit) that repair bad design decisions and bad interface bugs and so made earlier (in 32-bit API, or maybe even 16-bit). Regardless, how does this affect Cygwin at all? The 32-bit subsystem on 64-bit Windows OSes should run 32-bit apps with no semantic changes -- that's its job, and I would be surprised if the behaviour of any 32-bit APIs was gratuitously different (although it's possible there are bugs -- worth reporting if that's the case). If you're trying to compile cygwin itself for 64-bit, well, you may need to make some cygwin source changes with #ifdefs, yes -- is that the objection here? I wouldn't be surprised if some of the iffy decisions that cygwin makes just break on the 64-bit Windows. It's not Microsoft's fault if they change an undocumented behavior. Cygwin relies on a few undocumented-but-consistent behaviors to do some of its magic. I think the only problem is that Cygwin probably just needs to be debugged to see what's going on. If someone wants to send me a nice 64 bit system running WinXP 64 (or whatever it's called), I'll see what I can do. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 04:37:26PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: I think the only problem is that Cygwin probably just needs to be debugged to see what's going on. If someone wants to send me a nice 64 bit system running WinXP 64 (or whatever it's called), I'll see what I can do. Coincidentally I was going to suggest something similar... I got a hint lately about stuff working different on 64bit. If a 32 bit application is called from a 64 bit application the stack is 0xc000 lower than if the same 32 bit application is called by another 32 bit application. E. g., the first bash is spawned from 64 bit cmd.exe, its stack is shifted 0xc000. A CreateProcess call from fork will now create a child with the stack at another location which breaks the longjmp. Corinna -- Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to Cygwin Developermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Red Hat, Inc. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 11:47:39PM +0200, Corinna Vinschen wrote: On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 04:37:26PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: I think the only problem is that Cygwin probably just needs to be debugged to see what's going on. If someone wants to send me a nice 64 bit system running WinXP 64 (or whatever it's called), I'll see what I can do. Coincidentally I was going to suggest something similar... I got a hint lately about stuff working different on 64bit. If a 32 bit application is called from a 64 bit application the stack is 0xc000 lower than if the same 32 bit application is called by another 32 bit application. E. g., the first bash is spawned from 64 bit cmd.exe, its stack is shifted 0xc000. A CreateProcess call from fork will now create a child with the stack at another location which breaks the longjmp. That shouldn't be a problem. That's no different than if fork() is called from another thread. The stack should be relocated in the forkee automatically unless the memory for the stack is being used for something else. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 04:49:43PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 11:47:39PM +0200, Corinna Vinschen wrote: I got a hint lately about stuff working different on 64bit. If a 32 bit application is called from a 64 bit application the stack is 0xc000 lower than if the same 32 bit application is called by another 32 bit application. E. g., the first bash is spawned from 64 bit cmd.exe, its stack is shifted 0xc000. A CreateProcess call from fork will now create a child with the stack at another location which breaks the longjmp. That shouldn't be a problem. That's no different than if fork() is called from another thread. The stack should be relocated in the forkee automatically unless the memory for the stack is being used for something else. Hmm, this was apparently the reason it didn't work. The guy tracked it down to the longjmp which SEGV'd since it tried to return to an invalid memory region. But anyway, fork is your child. Corinna -- Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to Cygwin Developermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Red Hat, Inc. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Re: Big Brother is Real
-Original Message- From: Christopher Faylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 16:34:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 07:28:14AM -0800, Tim Prince wrote: Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, Wow. I had no idea I was so powerful. I think I need a raise. cgf -- Chris: I don't disagree, but I took a cut too to get involved in pushing Intel software. Tim Tim Prince -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: RE: Big Brother is Real
Speaking only for myself, and not my employer (because I don't know what he thinks) I can only say that from everyone I've met, and everything I do know, it appears to me that API changes are always made with backwards compatibility in mind, and the goal is never to break existing apps -- indeed, the efforts made to remain compatible with existing apps are astounding. stephan(); -Original Message- From: Timothy C Prince [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 12:09 PM To: Stephan Mueller Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RE: Big Brother is Real -Original Message- From: Stephan Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 10:37:19 -0800 Subject: RE: Big Brother is Real Can someone elaborate on exactly which APIs have changed incompatibly (in 64-bit Windows)? I'm only mildly familiar with the 64-bit story, but my understanding is that the the 64-bit APIs are basically the same as 32-bit (with the natural widening of types) but given that the 64-bit API is 'new' in that there's no legacy (shipped, binary) code base to support, this is probably the best time to make API changes (in 64-bit) that repair bad design decisions and bad interface bugs and so made earlier (in 32-bit API, or maybe even 16-bit). Regardless, how does this affect Cygwin at all? The 32-bit subsystem on 64-bit Windows OSes should run 32-bit apps with no semantic changes -- that's its job, and I would be surprised if the behaviour of any 32-bit APIs was gratuitously different (although it's possible there are bugs -- worth reporting if that's the case). If you're trying to compile cygwin itself for 64-bit, well, you may need to make some cygwin source changes with #ifdefs, yes -- is that the objection here? stephan(); -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Igor Pechtchanski Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 8:31 AM To: Andrew DeFaria Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Andrew DeFaria wrote: Tim Prince wrote: Lack of cygwin support has impeded the market penetration of Windows XP64, but it seems Microsoft would rather lose out to linux and HPUX than let their customers run cygwin. It may be they don't understand how many customers depend on cygwin, which is their fault too, since they don't support those customers, just collect the fees and forget them. How exactly does Microsoft stop their customers from running Cygwin? I'm curious because as you even admit many customers depend on cygwin so it is demonstrable that Microsoft has no power to stop their customers from running Cygwin. Microsoft doesn't stop their customers from running Cygwin, it introduces API changes that are incompatible with previous versions, and thus cause programs like Cygwin to not run. Whether this is deliberate or accidental remains debatable. Igor __ As I understand it, cygwin requires more compatibility than Microsoft guarantees between the 32-bit subsystem of WinXP64 and the 32-bit Windows OS, or even between beta and final versions of XP64. As Igor pointed out, we have no way of knowing whether breaking cygwin is deliberate or accidental. The price tag in $$ or volunteer hours to build a 64-bit native cygwin is more than anyone has been able to scrape up, so, yes, I'm talking about the 32-bit subsystem. It was quite useful at the time when it did support cygwin, even on those machines which have since had their anchor status confirmed. As even the native linux g77 for ia64 isn't competitive with g77 on XP32, or with gcc on ia64, I don't see any interest in a g77 cross compiler, and I'm not going there. I think each IA64 compiler development effort has far exceeded its initial budget. Tim Prince -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: RE: Big Brother is Real
On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 04:12:24PM -0800, Stephan Mueller wrote: Speaking only for myself, and not my employer (because I don't know what he thinks) I can only say that from everyone I've met, and everything I do know, it appears to me that API changes are always made with backwards compatibility in mind, and the goal is never to break existing apps -- indeed, the efforts made to remain compatible with existing apps are astounding. Given how stupid tricks that were developed on Windows NT3.5 (or earlier) continue to work on Windows 95, Windows 98, W2K, Windows NT4.0, and Windows XP. I think I can testify to that effort. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: RE: Big Brother is Real
On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 07:16:14PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 04:12:24PM -0800, Stephan Mueller wrote: Speaking only for myself, and not my employer (because I don't know what he thinks) I can only say that from everyone I've met, and everything I do know, it appears to me that API changes are always made with backwards compatibility in mind, and the goal is never to break existing apps -- indeed, the efforts made to remain compatible with existing apps are astounding. Given how stupid tricks that were developed on Windows NT3.5 (or earlier) continue to work on Windows 95, Windows 98, W2K, Windows NT4.0, and Windows XP. I think I can testify to that effort. ...and by stupid tricks, I mean stupid tricks used in cygwin, of course... cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: RE: Big Brother is Real
To backup Stephans statement it would be in Microsoft's interest to support 32/64 bit Cygwin. By supporting Cygwin Microsoft would increase and not decrease the installed base of Windows. Back to the fray- Martin - Original Message - From: Christopher Faylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 5:20 PM Subject: Re: RE: Big Brother is Real On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 07:16:14PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 04:12:24PM -0800, Stephan Mueller wrote: Speaking only for myself, and not my employer (because I don't know what he thinks) I can only say that from everyone I've met, and everything I do know, it appears to me that API changes are always made with backwards compatibility in mind, and the goal is never to break existing apps -- indeed, the efforts made to remain compatible with existing apps are astounding. Given how stupid tricks that were developed on Windows NT3.5 (or earlier) continue to work on Windows 95, Windows 98, W2K, Windows NT4.0, and Windows XP. I think I can testify to that effort. ...and by stupid tricks, I mean stupid tricks used in cygwin, of course... cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Randall R Schulz wrote: At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote: ... XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS. [snip] Thorsten ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office). OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. Igor Randall Schulz Yeah, scary, isn't it? That's why I'm still on Win2k SP2 (crack away!). Igor P.S. Read the whole document, BTW - very educational... ;-) -- http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/ |\ _,,,---,,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] ZZZzz /,`.-'`'-. ;-;;,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski '---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow! Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty. -- Leto II -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
if XP is such a good OS why did they strip out the JVM? Some of us prefer writing component based Java over heavy and slow monolithic Visual Basic apps. I would purchase XP except I want to Manage my registry instead of Microsoft 'Nuf Said Martin - Original Message - From: Randall R Schulz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:29 AM Subject: Big Brother is Real At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote: ... XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS. [snip] Thorsten ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office). OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. Igor Randall Schulz -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100) At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote: XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS. ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office). OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d. Thorsten -- Content-Type: text/explicit; charset=ISO-8859-666 (Parental Advisory) Content-Transfer-Warning: message contains innuendos not suited for children under the age of 18 -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
Martin, I'm not sure I get your drift. I do mostly Java myself, but on every system except MacOS one must install the Java SDK or runtime separately. I doubt Sun likes that state of affairs and as a Java developer, neither do I, but it's how things are right now. Microsoft dispensed with Java because it's in a legal and market battle with Sun. The JVM it was shipping was horridly out-of-date anyway and not useful for serious Java application developers. Anyway, in this thread we're talking about licensing terms and privacy, not OS quality. Randall Schulz At 07:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: If XP is such a good OS why did they strip out the JVM? Some of us prefer writing component based Java over heavy and slow monolithic Visual Basic apps. I would purchase XP except I want to Manage my registry instead of Microsoft. 'Nuf Said. Martin - Original Message - From: Randall R Schulz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:29 AM Subject: Big Brother is Real At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote: ... XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS. [snip] Thorsten ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office). OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. Igor Randall Schulz -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
Thorsten, At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote: * Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100) At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote: XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS. ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office). OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d. I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me. You're an odd bird, Thorsten. Thorsten Randall Schulz -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. Randall Schulz Any comments on whether a firewall helps? I don't use office, just Win2K (and even then, mostly on cygwin). I recall a time Kerio and ZoneAlarm kept asking for server rights for some Win2K service programs. Internet access didn't work without granting these rights. So I granted them. Fred -- Fred Ma, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Carleton University, Dept. of Electronics 1125 Colonel By Drive, Ottawa, Ontario Canada, K1S 5B6 -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 08:24:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: Thorsten, At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote: * Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100) At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote: XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS. ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office). OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d. I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me. I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Sorry. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
* Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 18:24 +0100) At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote: * Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100) At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote: XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS. ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office). OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d. I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me. I *know*. This was a joohoke. You won't move to Linux because you're a die-hard Cygwinist and cgf won't allow. Thorsten -- Content-Type: text/explicit; charset=ISO-8859-666 (Parental Advisory) Content-Transfer-Warning: message contains innuendos not suited for children under the age of 18 -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
Herr Doktor Faylor, At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 08:24:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: Thorsten, At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote: * Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100) At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote: XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS. ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office). OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d. I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me. I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Sorry. Yes, master. How shall I punish myself? cgf Randall Roy (heh!) Schulz -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
Chris, At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay... Sorry. cgf Randy (there he is again) -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Sorry. Yes, master. How shall I punish myself? Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly singled out. That should do it. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Randall R Schulz wrote: Chris, At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay... Sorry. cgf Randy (there he is again) Randall, Your evil twin is wheedling favors out of cgf (or trying to). Just thought you should know... Igor -- http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/ |\ _,,,---,,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] ZZZzz /,`.-'`'-. ;-;;,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski '---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow! Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty. -- Leto II -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Sorry. Yes, master. How shall I punish myself? You didn't read your discworld careful enough. It's spelled Yeth, marthter Corinna (which has still no Igor from Uberwald) -- Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to Cygwin Developermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Red Hat, Inc. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Sorry. Yes, master. How shall I punish myself? You didn't read your discworld careful enough. It's spelled Yeth, marthter Corinna (which has still no Igor from Uberwald) Corinna, I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump. Igor (not *that* one, yet) -- http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/ |\ _,,,---,,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] ZZZzz /,`.-'`'-. ;-;;,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski '---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow! Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty. -- Leto II -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
Chris, At 09:19 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Sorry. Yes, master. How shall I punish myself? Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly singled out. That should do it. OK, but I'm going to assume the operative word in this prescription for penance is try. Obligatory disclaimer: I ANAL. You? cgf RRS -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: Big Brother is Real
I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do? Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id (I don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously software can also turn it on ;) If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the tool can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones) About the license policies integrated: I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful: The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is that it cot hacked. I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets endless sources. A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products. I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-char functions are identical to the MS way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope on the horizon. If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous documents, I see the sun rise! guenter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Randall R Schulz Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 10:24 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real Thorsten, At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote: * Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100) At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote: XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS. ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office). OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d. I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me. You're an odd bird, Thorsten. Thorsten Randall Schulz -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: Big Brother is Real
Günter, At 09:56 2003-04-01, you wrote: I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do? It opens a back door for MS snooping. DRM indeed! Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id (I don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously software can also turn it on ;) Pentium IV has dispensed with the CPU ID, too. Bad PR, I guess... If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the tool can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones) It's a constant battle since MS applications will continue to extend their file formats while giving out specs only under non-disclosure. This forces the Open Source community to reverse engineer the file formats. But they're not cryptographic after all. They're meant to be readily encoded and decoded by software, so it's a manageable problem. Keep in mind that there's a world outside business, too, where things like TeX, PostScript and PDF are the linguas franca. Many communities either formally proscribe or informally eschew DOC and PPT files. About the license policies integrated: I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful: The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is that it cot hacked. I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to just say no to Microsoft. I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets endless sources. Some OEM versions are also excused from the call-back requirements. A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products. I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-char functions are identical to the MS way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope on the horizon. Many high-end applications, even jEdit, have user-configurable keyboard mappings. In other words: Have it your way! If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous documents, I see the sun rise! It's still cloudy here. günter Randall Schulz -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: Big Brother is Real
I apologize since this questions still does not belong into this forum (though it might impact decisions towards linux) When I installed windows last week again (got hacked) I did not have the option to install sp3 but immediately received sp4 and the .NET network stuff. I am screwed now! Am I not? I assume that sp4 is a combination of all previous SPs? I am mad! Really mad about that. We are so used to click 'agree' without bothering to read the fine print. :( guenter -Original Message- From: günter strubinsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 11:56 To: 'Randall R Schulz'; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: Big Brother is Real I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do? Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id (I don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously software can also turn it on ;) If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the tool can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones) About the license policies integrated: I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful: The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is that it cot hacked. I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets endless sources. A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products. I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-char functions are identical to the MS way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope on the horizon. If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous documents, I see the sun rise! guenter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Randall R Schulz Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 10:24 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real Thorsten, At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote: * Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100) At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote: XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS. ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office). OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d. I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me. You're an odd bird, Thorsten. Thorsten Randall Schulz -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: Yes, master. How shall I punish myself? You didn't read your discworld careful enough. It's spelled Yeth, marthter Corinna (which has still no Igor from Uberwald) Corinna, I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump. Igor (not *that* one, yet) A lisp would be already a good start. Just don't write programs with it... Corinna -- Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to Cygwin Developermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Red Hat, Inc. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Sorry. Yes, master. How shall I punish myself? You didn't read your discworld careful enough. It's spelled Yeth, marthter Corinna (which has still no Igor from Uberwald) Corinna, I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump. You can develop in lisp today. I think Mumps is pretty much of a dead language, though. -pd -- Peter Davis Funny stuff at http://www.pfdstudio.com The artwork formerly shown as prints List of resources for children's writers and illustrators at: http://www.pfdstudio.com/cwrl.html -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
Linux STILL doesnt have driver support for the latest video cards.. In other words if you're working in Linux keep that VGA card ! -Martin - Original Message - From: Thorsten Kampe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:53 AM Subject: Re: Big Brother is Real * Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 18:24 +0100) At 07:50 2003-04-01, you wrote: * Randall R Schulz (03-04-01 17:29 +0100) At 07:14 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Thorsten Kampe wrote: XP is the first rocksolid Windows OS. ... with completely unrealistic licensing (see the last paragraph of http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html#office). OH. MY. GOD. I installed SP3 on my Win2K. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I guess it really is time to move to Linux. You won't. You would have to use Wine to get Cygwin running, and that is n-o-t s-u-p-p-o-r-t-e-d. I won't what? What are you saying? If I move to Linux (or Solaris or MacOS X or FreeBSD, etc.), Cygwin will become irrelevant for me. I *know*. This was a joohoke. You won't move to Linux because you're a die-hard Cygwinist and cgf won't allow. Thorsten -- Content-Type: text/explicit; charset=ISO-8859-666 (Parental Advisory) Content-Transfer-Warning: message contains innuendos not suited for children under the age of 18 -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Igor Pechtchanski wrote: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Corinna Vinschen wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: Yes, master. How shall I punish myself? You didn't read your discworld careful enough. It's spelled Yeth, marthter Corinna (which has still no Igor from Uberwald) Corinna, I'll let you know when I develop a lisp and a hump. Igor (not *that* one, yet) A lisp would be already a good start. Just don't write programs with it... Corinna Well, FWIW, I don't use Emacs, I use vim. I've written a fair share of things in Scheme, though I prefer ML... We'll need to work on a HUMP, though... :-) Igor -- http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/ |\ _,,,---,,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] ZZZzz /,`.-'`'-. ;-;;,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski '---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow! The Lesser-Known Programming Language #12: LITHP This otherwise unremarkable language is distinguished by the absence of an S in its character set; users must substitute TH. LITHP is said to be useful in protheththing lithtth. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:40:03AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: Chris, At 09:19 2003-04-01, you wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:05:51AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Sorry. Yes, master. How shall I punish myself? Just monitor the list for the next GPL discussion and try to explain the GPL to someone who thinks they're being unfairly singled out. That should do it. OK, but I'm going to assume the operative word in this prescription for penance is try. Obligatory disclaimer: I ANAL. You? Nanananana. I'm not lieing! cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
At 10:10 2003-04-01, you wrote: A lisp would be already a good start. Just don't write programs with it... Hey! Lisp is my all-time favorite language! Corinna -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: Big Brother is Real
Thank you for the clarification, Randall! Fred mentioned the firewall issue. I have actually zone alarm installed and disallowed -permanently- the Microsoft software (with the exception as the usual suspects, DNS, etc.) to contact outside. Now I am not so sure anymore that I got hacked by anyone else but Bill. My system started to behave erratically when I had outlook and other ms programs running: The cpu was around 2-3% busy -never more during those phases- but everything stalled. (Including the task manager). I start to believe that those progs called home and waited for response from ms until they timed out which is why my system froze for about 30-60 seconds, execute a few time slices and then went into wait-state again. I have office xp installed... Is there any info out how the snoop works? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Randall R Schulz Sent: Tuesday, 01 April, 2003 12:07 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Big Brother is Real Günter, At 09:56 2003-04-01, you wrote: I missed out on that.. What does sp3 for win2k do? It opens a back door for MS snooping. DRM indeed! Btw. I only use amd cpu's. To my understanding they don't have the cpu id (I don't trust a software that allows me to turn the id of because obviously software can also turn it on ;) Pentium IV has dispensed with the CPU ID, too. Bad PR, I guess... If star office and open office can read/write Micro$oft documents there is hope, otherwise don't hold your breath. Too much has been written over the last 2 decades -and stored in word documents-. If you can't open it the tool can't be used in production environments. If it can, a seamless transition is possible. I just got a new laptop (birthday) and the first time of my life I will install 2 (TWO) OS's on it. (you know which ones) It's a constant battle since MS applications will continue to extend their file formats while giving out specs only under non-disclosure. This forces the Open Source community to reverse engineer the file formats. But they're not cryptographic after all. They're meant to be readily encoded and decoded by software, so it's a manageable problem. Keep in mind that there's a world outside business, too, where things like TeX, PostScript and PDF are the linguas franca. Many communities either formally proscribe or informally eschew DOC and PPT files. About the license policies integrated: I know that's not the right newsgroup and I will be very careful: The X box has highly sophisticated copy protection integrated in hard and software. It took a whole half year until it got cracked, but the point is that it cot hacked. I think we have to work with the legal system, not try to subvert it. Microsoft has a right to set the licensing terms it wants. We have a right to tell them to go to hell. Currently however, and as you note, the power relationship is highly skewed. It ain't easy to just say no to Microsoft. I heard/read that there are already a wealth of xp versions for download that have the 'call bill back' inherently disabled. The same is true for MS software. I haven't the latest statistics at hand, but the private household; those who made a copy from the office and brought it home for business and private use, won't pay extravagant prices if this is not possible anymore. Those will 'get' the grey copies because of the internets endless sources. Some OEM versions are also excused from the call-back requirements. A big problem seems to be the de facto standard of behavior by MS products. I loved Sun One's debugger since the function keys are identical to Visual Studio. I love JEDIT since the Ctrl-char functions are identical to the MS way (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-V, etc.). If the main competitors can (and no copyright can forbid that) emulate this functionality/behavior I see hope on the horizon. Many high-end applications, even jEdit, have user-configurable keyboard mappings. In other words: Have it your way! If, lastly Office 11 would not be backwards compatible with their previous documents, I see the sun rise! It's still cloudy here. günter Randall Schulz -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: Big Brother is Real
Günter, That first remark of mine was meant facetiously, of course. SP3 does more than just open a privacy hole (I assume). My guess (nope, I haven't done the research--I had my child-like naivete destroyed by Igor's URL just today!) is that it's during system update that you're going to be probed, but that's just a hunch. It seems likely that were you to successfully configure a firewall to prevent this system probing, you'd also prevent other more desirable activity or would simply cause Windows to refuse to function. Anyway, I shouldn't indulge in this kind of guesswork in public. WinXPNews (http://www.winxpnews.com/) seems to be a good source for this sort of information. If (and when) I really want to know, I'll probably start there. And Google, of course. Good luck. Don't let the bedbugs bite! Randall Schulz At 10:51 2003-04-01, günter strubinsky wrote: Thank you for the clarification, Randall! Fred mentioned the firewall issue. I have actually zone alarm installed and disallowed -permanently- the Microsoft software (with the exception as the usual suspects, DNS, etc.) to contact outside. Now I am not so sure anymore that I got hacked by anyone else but Bill. My system started to behave erratically when I had outlook and other ms programs running: The cpu was around 2-3% busy -never more during those phases- but everything stalled. (Including the task manager). I start to believe that those progs called home and waited for response from ms until they timed out which is why my system froze for about 30-60 seconds, execute a few time slices and then went into wait-state again. I have office xp installed... Is there any info out how the snoop works? -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 10:38:15AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: At 10:10 2003-04-01, you wrote: A lisp would be already a good start. Just don't write programs with it... Hey! Lisp is my all-time favorite language! Yeth, thath the thame with all Igorth... Corinna -- Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to Cygwin Developermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Red Hat, Inc. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: Big Brother is Real
Randall R Schulz wrote: Obligatory disclaimer: I ANAL. You? You'd better make that IANASCJ gsw -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:14:23AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay... Ok, Igor. Could you gold star Randy for, um, er, conspicuous service on behalf of the cygwin community? While we're at it, give yourself one for same. If you don't mind... cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: Big Brother is Real
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Christopher Faylor wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 09:14:23AM -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: At 08:38 2003-04-01, you wrote: I don't recall giving you my permission to move to Linux, Randall. You're too valuable to the cygwin community for me to allow this move. Maybe a gold star would help persuade me to stay... Ok, Igor. Could you gold star Randy for, um, er, conspicuous service on behalf of the cygwin community? While we're at it, give yourself one for same. If you don't mind... cgf Wow, you're generous today. But then, who am I to argue... :-) Two gold stars coming up... Igor -- http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/ |\ _,,,---,,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] ZZZzz /,`.-'`'-. ;-;;,_[EMAIL PROTECTED] |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Igor Pechtchanski '---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-. Meow! Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty. -- Leto II -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Bug reporting: http://cygwin.com/bugs.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
