Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
I don't think you've been paying attention. No, I haven't been following this entire thread. Fair enough. Bye, bye. How old are you? And can one even recover this entire thread from the archive? I don't know why this thread needs to have such emotional content. There is a technical problem to be solved that unfortunately can't be solved the usual way(s). OK. So can we work together to solve it anyway? Even though some aspects of the problem aren't technical? At the risk of yet more flak, here's what I've been able to figure out over the months that this thread has run. I am writing this as neutrally as I can... - the bug only occurs on HT Pentiums running WinXP Pro - Some users have such a system, no user can debug the problem - CGF hasn't been able to reproduce it despite a lot of effort - I don't recall if CGF has an HT Pentium running WinXP Pro - ergo, CGF needs another system - It can't be a remote system - CGF already has multiple systems so space/heat/noise/? are concerns - CGF doesn't want to buy a system specifically to solve this problem - CGF set up a donations page - The $400 amount donated isn't enough to purchase an appropriate system - CGF asked Hasn't anyone put together a nice $400 system? - People who've built systems themselves said or implied Yes, by (A) using spare parts along with new CPU, Mobo and Memory, or (B) replacing/upgrading an existing machine, or (C) making an existing machine dual-boot. - Those are apparently unacceptable options - People who've bought systems are hard-pressed to meet that price point - WinXP Pro costs $128 to upgrade to, even more if new - Not meeting the $400 price point is unacceptable So it looks like more donations are needed or the problem stays unsolved. (To all Cygwin users:) I've donated. Have you considered donating for this common goal? ..mark -- -- Teller, of Penn and Teller. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
Mark Geisert wrote: And can one even recover this entire thread from the archive? When threading is broken it is due to brain-dead email clients. The archive software requires the presence of either a References or In-Reply-To header in order to reconstruct threads. All decent email programs include these when replying to a message, but there are some that do not and thus many email archives on the web have broken threading. Incidently, from your headers it appears you use M2 and there is neither a References nor an In-Reply-To header in your email, so you are part of the problem. - People who've built systems themselves said or implied Yes, by (A) using spare parts along with new CPU, Mobo and Memory, or (B) replacing/upgrading an existing machine, or (C) making an existing machine dual-boot. - Those are apparently unacceptable options - People who've bought systems are hard-pressed to meet that price point - WinXP Pro costs $128 to upgrade to, even more if new - Not meeting the $400 price point is unacceptable I'd say that's a false characterization. The way I read it, cgf more or less asked, Does anyone know if it is possible to get a full, complete system for the current donated amount ($400)? It would need to be a real computer, not a barebones system that requires extra parts. If not that's okay, it will just take some time for more money to accumulate. In other words, not meeting the $400 price point is far from unacceptable, it just means more time will have to pass. Brian -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 12:05:45AM -0800, Mark Geisert wrote: I don't think you've been paying attention. No, I haven't been following this entire thread. Fair enough. Bye, bye. How old are you? I'm old enough to have become very tired of messages from ill-informed (i.e., people who haven't followed the entire thread) lecturing messages. And can one even recover this entire thread from the archive? Yes. Here is what is happening: People reported a problem with cygwin that I cannot duplicate. People have donated money towards getting me a system. I am going to purchase a system with this money. I asked if anyone had put together a system for $400 since, at that point this was all I had available, implying that this has to be a system which demonstrated the problem. In asking for a system whose price was $400, I was not asking for a $603 system. I wasn't looking to bring someone up to speed on previous discussions. I wasn't asking for help debugging the problem. I wasn't asking for musings that the problem was due to cygwin's release policy. I wasn't looking for advice on how to reorganize my home setup to avoid purchasing a new system. I wasn't looking for a new version of the script which shows the problem. Anyone is welcome to send this kind of thing to the mailing list. I just have no interest in responding to it. That's what I meant by Bye, bye. At this point, the only thing I require from the cygwin community is $$$ donated towards the purchase of a new system. I'm now very close to having enough money to buy a system based on one of the previously mentioned configurations. When I finally get a system and can duplicate the problem, I hope that I will be able to fix it. At that point, I'll be asking for people to test the fix. We are not there yet. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 12:22:19AM -0800, Brian Dessent wrote: - People who've built systems themselves said or implied Yes, by (A) using spare parts along with new CPU, Mobo and Memory, or (B) replacing/upgrading an existing machine, or (C) making an existing machine dual-boot. - Those are apparently unacceptable options - People who've bought systems are hard-pressed to meet that price point - WinXP Pro costs $128 to upgrade to, even more if new - Not meeting the $400 price point is unacceptable I'd say that's a false characterization. The way I read it, cgf more or less asked, Does anyone know if it is possible to get a full, complete system for the current donated amount ($400)? It would need to be a real computer, not a barebones system that requires extra parts. If not that's okay, it will just take some time for more money to accumulate. In other words, not meeting the $400 price point is far from unacceptable, it just means more time will have to pass. Correct. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 10:57:32PM -0800, David Christensen wrote: I wrote: http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=1251752 Christopher Faylor wrote: Well, yeah. I sort of need a hard disk, though and is that system *guaranteed* to exhibit this problem? This motherboard, case, and power supply are the core of my desktop machine and the machines I build for clients. The 2.4C processor and 256 MB of RAM represent skimping to get the price down to near $400.00. Honestly, if you're going to build a new hyperthreading box for yourself, spend the money to do it right. You're a developer and power user; time is money. $600 vs. $400 now will save you countless hours over the next several years. Huh? I can only spend as much money as I have. Why do you think I was asking for a good system in the $400 price range? I don't think you've been paying attention. I don't *need* a new system. I have perfectly adequate systems running linux. My cygwin system is also perfectly adequate for everything but checking this particular problem. When I was asking for feedback on a $400 system, I meant that I wanted a system that was actually usable. A system without a hard drive is not usable. Suggesting another $186 worth of improvements after I had mentioned my price limitations isn't really very helpful. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
Christopher Faylor wrote: I don't think you've been paying attention. No, I haven't been following this entire thread. I've told you what I use and recommend, and shown that my system demonstrates the Cygwin HT bug. When I build computers, my goals are reliability first, price/performance second. I use good parts, and they're not cheap. Sorry that they don't fit within your budget. I don't *need* a new system. I have perfectly adequate systems running linux. Then rebuild one of them dual-boot. If you need another drive, then buy one. If you use mobile docks, then buy another drawer. $400 is more than enough. When I was asking for feedback on a $400 system, I meant that I wanted a system that was actually usable. If you want HT at $400, then you need to shop around for cheap mass produced systems -- e-Machines, Great Quality, Fry's Electronics specials, etc.. A key parameter that I failed to state in my test report is that I run Windows XP Professional SP2 with all current patches except Windows Journal Viewer. Has the Cygwin HT bug been reported on XP Home Edition? XP Home is what cheap computers are going to have. A critical dimension to this whole discussion is repeatability, or lack thereof. Myself and others have demonstrated the bug on our computers, yet still others (apparently, yourself) have been unable to reproduce it. The solution is configuration management and automation. Because Cygwin is not versioned at the distribution level, and because Cygwin cannot be easily and completely installed and uninstalled with scripts that depend solely on Windows, it is very difficult to reproduce and isolate the HT bug across multiple Cygwin deployments. These ideas have been beaten to death on this list in the past, and I don't want to raise them again. I am merely pointing out that here is an example of the price to be paid when such features are missing. Could you or other Cygwin developers debug the HT bug on my machine via ssh, without adversely impacting my system? p42800e is my primary desktop machine, and myself and my family members use it daily (including Cygwin). David -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
On Sun, Jan 23, 2005 at 10:39:07AM -0800, David Christensen wrote: Christopher Faylor wrote: I don't think you've been paying attention. No, I haven't been following this entire thread. Fair enough. Bye, bye. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
I wrote: http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=1251752 Christopher Faylor wrote: Well, yeah. I sort of need a hard disk, though and is that system *guaranteed* to exhibit this problem? This motherboard, case, and power supply are the core of my desktop machine and the machines I build for clients. The 2.4C processor and 256 MB of RAM represent skimping to get the price down to near $400.00. Honestly, if you're going to build a new hyperthreading box for yourself, spend the money to do it right. You're a developer and power user; time is money. $600 vs. $400 now will save you countless hours over the next several years. I have a Pentium 4 2.8E GHz processor; current is 3.0E. I recommend it for power users and SOHO servers (+$32.00): http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=19-116-171DEPA=0 I have and recommend 1 GB of matched pair DDR 400 for 800 MHz FSB Pentium 4 systems (+$94.00): http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-141-423depa=0 Here's the hard drive I use in all systems ($59.79): http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-122depa=0 Here's the script running on my machine: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/mydocuments/cygwin-issues/hyperthreading$ cat test #! /bin/ksh mypath=$(pwd) while [[ ! -z $mypath ]] do mypath=$(pwd) if [[ -z $mypath ]] then echo Test Failed..Path is empty fi done When I fire it up in two Cygwin Bash windows, one or the other fails within 3 to 10 seconds: Trial #1: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/mydocuments/cygwin-issues/hyperthreading$ ./test Test Failed..Path is empty Trial #2: CVSENV[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/mydocuments/cygwin-issues/hyperthreading$ time ./test 4 [exiting thread] pdksh 3684 cygthread::stub: erroneous thread activation (shell locked) Trial #3: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/mydocuments/cygwin-issues/hyperthreading$ time ./test 4 [exiting thread] pdksh 2532 cygthread::stub: erroneous thread activation (shell locked) Trial #4: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/mydocuments/cygwin-issues/hyperthreading$ time ./test Test Failed..Path is empty real0m41.530s user0m55.135s sys 0m21.650s David -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
Christopher Faylor wrote: On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 09:16:51PM -0800, David Christensen wrote: Christopher Faylor wrote: Hasn't anyone put together a nice $400 system? How about $417.50? http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=1251752 You need to provide the hard drive, CD-ROM drive, floppy drive, keyboard, mouse, and operating system. Well, yeah. I sort of need a hard disk, though and is that system *guaranteed* to exhibit this problem? cgf I have been able to reproduce this on a variety of machines, the only common attribute that I noticed has been Hyperthreading itself (WinXP/WinServer2003, 2.6GHz P4-HT/2.8GHz P4-HT/Dual 3.2GHz Zeon-HT, 40Gig Mitsubishi harddrive/36G Western Digital/80 Gig HP, with or without a CD-ROM drive, with or without a floppy). I unplugged my mouse and was able to reproduce it. I unplugged the monitor and reproduced it over remote desktop connection. So, at this point, I would believe that any HT machine running at least WinXP would show the problem. -Rolf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
David Christensen wrote: Christopher Faylor wrote: Hasn't anyone put together a nice $400 system? How about $417.50? http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=1251752 You need to provide the hard drive, CD-ROM drive, floppy drive, keyboard, mouse, and operating system. David -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ see what www.cyberpowerpc.com offers -- i've purchases a couple of systems from them at really good prices. And they provide a good warranty. -*Intel^® Pentium^® 4 Processor @ 3.0 GHz 800FSB w/ Hyper Threading* -MSI 848P NEO-LS Intel® i848 SATA w/ LAN 5.1 SOUND Motherboard -256MB PC3200 DDR 400 Memory -80GB 7200 RPM ATA 100 HD -*NVIDIA GeForce-2 MX400 64mb Video* -52x32x52 CD-RW -AC97 3D Wavetable Sound -3D Stereo Speakers -56K V.90 Fax Modem w/ Speaker Phone *$492 -- altering the configuration might get you down to $400, they provide online system configuration.* -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 09:16:51PM -0800, David Christensen wrote: Christopher Faylor wrote: Hasn't anyone put together a nice $400 system? How about $417.50? http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=1251752 You need to provide the hard drive, CD-ROM drive, floppy drive, keyboard, mouse, and operating system. Well, yeah. I sort of need a hard disk, though and is that system *guaranteed* to exhibit this problem? cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
Adrian Cox wrote: On Thu, 2005-01-13 at 19:58 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: This is still pretty far off from the goal but I would still appreciate it if anyone could recommend a cheap system which demonstrates the problem. So far, I don't recall anyone giving specific details about a name brand computer or a specific motherboard. If I start getting names I can start doing research on the best place to purchase a system. My system is an ASUS P4P800S with an Intel P4 2.6 GHz. Single 512 MB stick of PC3200 RAM. OS is XP Pro. And heck, contributing towards a machine for CGF is cheaper than getting a decent monitor to hook up to my Linux machine :) Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Brisbane, Australia --- http://boredomandlaziness.skystorm.net -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 12:09:54AM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: Adrian Cox wrote: On Thu, 2005-01-13 at 19:58 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: This is still pretty far off from the goal but I would still appreciate it if anyone could recommend a cheap system which demonstrates the problem. So far, I don't recall anyone giving specific details about a name brand computer or a specific motherboard. If I start getting names I can start doing research on the best place to purchase a system. My system is an ASUS P4P800S with an Intel P4 2.6 GHz. Single 512 MB stick of PC3200 RAM. OS is XP Pro. And heck, contributing towards a machine for CGF is cheaper than getting a decent monitor to hook up to my Linux machine :) Thanks. Unfortunately contributions seem to have stalled and I'm several hundred dollars from what appears to be a basic system which demonstrates the problem. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 12:09:54AM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: Adrian Cox wrote: On Thu, 2005-01-13 at 19:58 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: This is still pretty far off from the goal but I would still appreciate it if anyone could recommend a cheap system which demonstrates the problem. So far, I don't recall anyone giving specific details about a name brand computer or a specific motherboard. If I start getting names I can start doing research on the best place to purchase a system. My system is an ASUS P4P800S with an Intel P4 2.6 GHz. Single 512 MB stick of PC3200 RAM. OS is XP Pro. And heck, contributing towards a machine for CGF is cheaper than getting a decent monitor to hook up to my Linux machine :) So far, the machine specifications are still too expensive for what I have. Hasn't anyone put together a nice $400 system? cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
Christopher Faylor wrote: Hasn't anyone put together a nice $400 system? How about $417.50? http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=1251752 You need to provide the hard drive, CD-ROM drive, floppy drive, keyboard, mouse, and operating system. David -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
RE: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Should be more money in the pot now. The system I am using that demonstrates the problem: CPU: Intel Pentium 4HT, 3200 MHz (4x800), Northwood Hyperthreading MoBo: ASUS P4P800-E DeLuxe Chipset: Intel Springdale i865PE Speicher: 4x512 MB DDR SDRAM PC3200 (BD512TEC500) If you need anything else, just holler With kind Regards|\ _,,,---,,_ ZZZzz /,`.-'`'-. ;-;;, Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' (BSP GmbH)'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Then rested he by the tumtum tree, and stood awhile in thought. And as in uffish thought he stood. . . (Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar) - -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Christopher Faylor Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 1:59 AM To: cygwin@cygwin.com Subject: update on hyperthreading system for cgf On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 05:19:22PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: I have, with some misgivings, set up a donations page: http://cygwin.com/donations.html This is something that I've wanted to do for a while and, IIRC, I've even previously gotten buy-in from other developers and package maintainers. If other package maintainers want to add their links, please send me private email with the appropriate info and I'll do so post-haste. So far, the tally for contributions toward purchasing a hyperthreaded system is around $175 minus the paypal processing fees. This is still pretty far off from the goal but I would still appreciate it if anyone could recommend a cheap system which demonstrates the problem. So far, I don't recall anyone giving specific details about a name brand computer or a specific motherboard. If I start getting names I can start doing research on the best place to purchase a system. cgf - -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Personal Security 7.0.3 iQA/AwUBQe0Qcx5trGyhAF0wEQKOjQCg1z01yH7zJXcfxAbNjVuedEDqnnkAn3HA mndCve5QEBDEUylaMI6Gy8pI =TgS/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
On Thu, 2005-01-13 at 19:58 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: This is still pretty far off from the goal but I would still appreciate it if anyone could recommend a cheap system which demonstrates the problem. So far, I don't recall anyone giving specific details about a name brand computer or a specific motherboard. If I start getting names I can start doing research on the best place to purchase a system. I just put together a machine with an Intel D865PERL motherboard and 3.0GHz P4 (1MB cache, 800MHz bus), PC3200 RAM on two banks. It shows the bug within minutes when running XP Pro. The same machine runs the test case for a very long time without incident under Windows 2000. -- Adrian Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Re: update on hyperthreading system for cgf
On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 07:58:32PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: So far, the tally for contributions toward purchasing a hyperthreaded system is around $175 minus the paypal processing fees. I somehow forgot a very important part of my message: THANK YOU to everyone who contributed. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
