RE: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
Christopher Faylor wrote on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:49 PM:: The historical reasons for merging the cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists no longer seems to exist so I am contemplating merging the two lists. If anyone has a compelling reason why this should not happen please send it to one of the two lists. If I don't hear a coherent argument against doing this, I'll throw the switch over the weekend. Btw, I'm only mildly sympathetic to arguments like It will be more email for me. I'm more concerned with having to constantly shuttle people back and forth between the two lists. Unless there is a compelling argument to the contrary, I think that the fact that people are confused about which list to use outweighs the increase in email traffic for people who just want to hear about cygwin/x. cgf Although I currently have rules to put the two lists in different mail folders and it works well for me, but I'd also be perfectly happy with the change. There are plenty of borderline issues where it's not clear (to the user at least) whether the problem is X related or cygwin related, so a unified list removes any need to speculate. With the 1.7 release now officially available for public test, there are bound to be issues in X apps, where the cause is really in the cygwin DLL, so merging the lists asap will save everyone having to play the guess-the-list game. A couple of things to consider (although you're probably way ahead of me): Will mail sent to the xfree ML email address be diverted (or mirrored) to the cygwin ML? Human nature being what it is, it's unrealistic to expect everyone replying to an old thread to remember to change the To: line. Also, what will happen to the archives? Will they be merged too? If they are, any links to xfree archived posts (both within the ML itself, and also from bookmarks/blogs/forums/other MLs/etc) will be broken. Would it be possible to alias the old URLs to avoid breaking links? If the archives are not merged, the threading should at least be maintained (both ways) between the old xfree list and the merged list. (i.e. a reply to a message on cygwin-xfree which goes to the cygwin ML needs the References entry to point back to the xfree archive, and the xfree message needs the Follow-ups entry to point to the cygwin archive). Phil -- This email has been scanned by Ascribe PLC using Microsoft Antigen for Exchange. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
- Original Message - From: Christopher Faylor cgf-use-the-mailinglist-ple...@cygwin.com To: cygwin-xfree@cygwin.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:28 PM Subject: Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 02:45:17PM -0500, jose isaias cabrera wrote: I don't mind the traffic of xfree, but the cygwin list has too much traffic. You have my mild sympathy. Well, come to think of it, we could both merge cygwin + cygwin-xfree, BUT also _resplit_ cygwin, but this time into cygwin 1.7 and cygwin-the rest. So the additional X traffic (which will be far less than the 1.7 traffic I guess) is balanced better again. just a thought. -Andreas -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 09:51:11PM +0100, Andreas Eibach wrote: From: Christopher Faylor To: cygwin-xfree Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:28 PM Subject: Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge Why are you duplicating the headers of the email in the body of the message? There is no need for this repetition and you're feeding spammers by adding email addresses there. On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 02:45:17PM -0500, jose isaias cabrera wrote: I don't mind the traffic of xfree, but the cygwin list has too much traffic. You have my mild sympathy. Well, come to think of it, we could both merge cygwin + cygwin-xfree, BUT also _resplit_ cygwin, but this time into cygwin 1.7 and cygwin-the rest. So the additional X traffic (which will be far less than the 1.7 traffic I guess) is balanced better again. just a thought. The intent is to make 1.7 the default release of Cygwin. There will be no the rest in a month or two. My sympathies are growing milder by the minute. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
--- On Fri, 12/12/08, Christopher Faylor cgf-use-the-mailinglist-ple...@cygwin.com wrote: Snipped My sympathies are growing milder by the minute. I am only a lurker here just trying to keep track of events in cygwin-X, but I do think your arguments for re-merging the lists are not unreasonable. It will mean change for those who have only been tracking cygwin-X, and that's not always comfortable. I frankly can't come up with any solid reason to oppose the re-merge, so I guess that's a yes vote here. Especially if you have already planned on using Mr. Betts' ideas about maintaining X-threads and links to the X-archives. Regards, Peter -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 04:30:37PM -0800, Peter Farley wrote: --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Christopher Faylor cgf-use-the-mailinglist-ple...@cygwin.com wrote: Snipped My sympathies are growing milder by the minute. I am only a lurker here just trying to keep track of events in cygwin-X, but I do think your arguments for re-merging the lists are not unreasonable. It will mean change for those who have only been tracking cygwin-X, and that's not always comfortable. I frankly can't come up with any solid reason to oppose the re-merge, so I guess that's a yes vote here. Especially if you have already planned on using Mr. Betts' ideas about maintaining X-threads and links to the X-archives. I responded to the message here but my clever mailer (which I programmed myself so I only have myself to blame) only sent it to cygwin-xfree. http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2008-12/msg00295.html Short answer: The only thing I'm considering is turning off the cygwin-xfree list and removing hints of it from cygwin.com/lists.html. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 10:10:53PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 04:30:37PM -0800, Peter Farley wrote: --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Christopher Faylor cgf-use-the-mailinglist-ple...@cygwin.com wrote: Snipped My sympathies are growing milder by the minute. I am only a lurker here just trying to keep track of events in cygwin-X, but I do think your arguments for re-merging the lists are not unreasonable. It will mean change for those who have only been tracking cygwin-X, and that's not always comfortable. I frankly can't come up with any solid reason to oppose the re-merge, so I guess that's a yes vote here. Especially if you have already planned on using Mr. Betts' ideas about maintaining X-threads and links to the X-archives. I responded to the message here but my clever mailer (which I programmed myself so I only have myself to blame) only sent it to cygwin-xfree. Wow, that was clear. I can't blame the mailer for a nonsensical sentence. I responded to the message but my mailer only sent it to the cygwin list. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
- Original Message - From: Yaakov (Cygwin/X) Subject: Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge That may have been true until November 12. But in the last four weeks since X11R7.4, there have been ~500 messages on cygwin-xfree, including 30 announcements (including 3 xserver revisions). Comparatively, there have been ~660 messages on cygwin including ~45 announcements. I suspect that's probably an untypical situation. I can give you some figures for the 3 months from August 17th (when I first registered) to November 17th (when I unsubscribed from xfree). These figures include announcements as well as posts that were duplicated on both lists:- cygwin.xfree = 194 messages cygwin = at least 1374 messages I can't give an accurate figure for the cygwin list because I regularly have to unsubscribe from it due to the high volume of traffic. It wouldn't surprise me if the true figure isn't 50 percent higher or more (i.e. ten messages on cygwin list for every one on cygwin.xfree). John -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
RE: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
From: Christopher Faylor The historical reasons for [un?]merging the cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists no longer seems to exist so I am contemplating merging the two lists. For us old-timers, what were the historical reasons again, and why/how did they go away? -- Gary R. Van Sickle -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 04:00:43AM -0600, Gary R. Van Sickle wrote: From: Christopher Faylor The historical reasons for [un?]merging the cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists no longer seems to exist so I am contemplating merging the two lists. For us old-timers, what were the historical reasons again, and why/how did they go away? Good question. My email records don't go back far enough to know for sure and I don't see anything telling in the mailing list archives. I think that one of the early maintainers (maybe Suhaib Siddiqi) didn't want to read the cygwin list to look for cygwin-xfree questions. I believe I was actually somewhat reluctant to do the split because (I know this will be hard to believe) I thought there would be end-user confusion that would require a lot of use the other list shuttling. OTOH, maybe I was actively insisting on it and relishing the chance to tell people they were off-topic. I'm just proposing this now because Yaakov asked about it and Jon indicated that he would be ok with it. Yaakov obviously reads both lists and he has observed that the lines are sometimes blurred between what's a X question and what isn't. Do you have an opinion either way, Gary? Another thing that occurred to me is that we could keep the two lists and stop telling people that they *had* to ask questions about X here. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
Christopher Faylor wrote: On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 04:00:43AM -0600, Gary R. Van Sickle wrote: From: Christopher Faylor The historical reasons for [un?]merging the cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists no longer seems to exist so I am contemplating merging the two lists. For us old-timers, what were the historical reasons again, and why/how did they go away? Good question. My email records don't go back far enough to know for sure and I don't see anything telling in the mailing list archives. I think that one of the early maintainers (maybe Suhaib Siddiqi) didn't want to read the cygwin list to look for cygwin-xfree questions. Yes, I remember that. I believe I was actually somewhat reluctant to do the split because (I know this will be hard to believe) I thought there would be end-user confusion that would require a lot of use the other list shuttling. OTOH, maybe I was actively insisting on it and relishing the chance to tell people they were off-topic. I'm just proposing this now because Yaakov asked about it and Jon indicated that he would be ok with it. Yaakov obviously reads both lists and he has observed that the lines are sometimes blurred between what's a X question and what isn't. Do you have an opinion either way, Gary? Another thing that occurred to me is that we could keep the two lists and stop telling people that they *had* to ask questions about X here. True. The downside there is there would exist an artificial split where some discussion would happen only on Cygwin-X while others would happen on the main list. This would be tough to keep track of and be a stumblling block for newbies who might actually look in the archives for answers. If there is a goal to maintain the idea of two lists while really having only one, what about having the Cygwin-X list exist as a head only. It would be similar to the announce lists in that it would forward all email to the main list but would be different in that there would be no separate list archive. I'm not sure how easy it would be to set something like this up but it would address the concerns some have expressed about filtering out the main Cygwin list info. -- Larry Hall http://www.rfk.com RFK Partners, Inc. (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office 216 Dalton Rd. (508) 429-6305 - FAX Holliston, MA 01746 -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
Christopher Faylor wrote: On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 02:33:21PM -0500, Larry Hall (Cygwin X) wrote: Christopher Faylor wrote: On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 04:00:43AM -0600, Gary R. Van Sickle wrote: From: Christopher Faylor The historical reasons for [un?]merging the cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists no longer seems to exist so I am contemplating merging the two lists. For us old-timers, what were the historical reasons again, and why/how did they go away? Good question. My email records don't go back far enough to know for sure and I don't see anything telling in the mailing list archives. I think that one of the early maintainers (maybe Suhaib Siddiqi) didn't want to read the cygwin list to look for cygwin-xfree questions. Yes, I remember that. I believe I was actually somewhat reluctant to do the split because (I know this will be hard to believe) I thought there would be end-user confusion that would require a lot of use the other list shuttling. OTOH, maybe I was actively insisting on it and relishing the chance to tell people they were off-topic. I'm just proposing this now because Yaakov asked about it and Jon indicated that he would be ok with it. Yaakov obviously reads both lists and he has observed that the lines are sometimes blurred between what's a X question and what isn't. Another thing that occurred to me is that we could keep the two lists and stop telling people that they *had* to ask questions about X here. True. The downside there is there would exist an artificial split where some discussion would happen only on Cygwin-X while others would happen on the main list. This would be tough to keep track of and be a stumblling block for newbies who might actually look in the archives for answers. If there is a goal to maintain the idea of two lists while really having only one, what about having the Cygwin-X list exist as a head only. It would be similar to the announce lists in that it would forward all email to the main list but would be different in that there would be no separate list archive. I'm not sure how easy it would be to set something like this up but it would address the concerns some have expressed about filtering out the main Cygwin list info. I could do the cygwin-xfree - cygwin mirroring fairly easily and even prepend a [X11] to the subject. Going in the other direction would require more work. And, it seems like that would start to make things more complicated. We could adopt a convention of prepending [X11] or [Xorg] in front of X-related messages but I'm sure that people who don't want to see traffic wouldn't consider that an acceptable alternative to a separate mailing list. Yep, good point. On thinking about this again, I realize that my suggestion doesn't really address the I only want to see the X messages crowd, since people could still (and maybe would feel encouraged to) just send email to the main list and thereby bypass those only on the X list (which I believe was the point you were trying to address with the mention of mirroring from the main list to the X list.) So, in retrospect, it's a dumb idea! Sorry for the noise. -- Larry Hall http://www.rfk.com RFK Partners, Inc. (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office 216 Dalton Rd. (508) 429-6305 - FAX Holliston, MA 01746 -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
The historical reasons for merging the cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists no longer seems to exist so I am contemplating merging the two lists. If anyone has a compelling reason why this should not happen please send it to one of the two lists. If I don't hear a coherent argument against doing this, I'll throw the switch over the weekend. Btw, I'm only mildly sympathetic to arguments like It will be more email for me. I'm more concerned with having to constantly shuttle people back and forth between the two lists. Unless there is a compelling argument to the contrary, I think that the fact that people are confused about which list to use outweighs the increase in email traffic for people who just want to hear about cygwin/x. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
I don't mind the traffic of xfree, but the cygwin list has too much traffic. - Original Message - From: Christopher Faylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; cygwin-xfree@cygwin.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:49 PM Subject: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge The historical reasons for merging the cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists no longer seems to exist so I am contemplating merging the two lists. If anyone has a compelling reason why this should not happen please send it to one of the two lists. If I don't hear a coherent argument against doing this, I'll throw the switch over the weekend. Btw, I'm only mildly sympathetic to arguments like It will be more email for me. I'm more concerned with having to constantly shuttle people back and forth between the two lists. Unless there is a compelling argument to the contrary, I think that the fact that people are confused about which list to use outweighs the increase in email traffic for people who just want to hear about cygwin/x. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/ -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 02:45:17PM -0500, jose isaias cabrera wrote: I don't mind the traffic of xfree, but the cygwin list has too much traffic. You have my mild sympathy. - Original Message - From: Christopher Faylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:49 PM Subject: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge The historical reasons for merging the cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists no longer seems to exist so I am contemplating merging the two lists. If anyone has a compelling reason why this should not happen please send it to one of the two lists. If I don't hear a coherent argument against doing this, I'll throw the switch over the weekend. Btw, I'm only mildly sympathetic to arguments like It will be more email for me. I'm more concerned with having to constantly shuttle people back and forth between the two lists. Unless there is a compelling argument to the contrary, I think that the fact that people are confused about which list to use outweighs the increase in email traffic for people who just want to hear about cygwin/x. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
I don't mind the traffic of xfree, but the cygwin list has too much traffic. There IS traffic on xfree? Looks this has escaped me then. :P -a -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
I applaud the change! And while some hippos may not be sanguine, Elephant\Rhinos (Elifinos!, as in, 'El-if-i-no which list to send it to') are ecstatic! ;-) Lee sowiso wrote: I don't mind the traffic of xfree, but the cygwin list has too much traffic. There IS traffic on xfree? Looks this has escaped me then. :P -a -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/ -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
Exactly. .-) - Original Message - From: sowiso [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; cygwin-xfree@cygwin.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 4:07 PM Subject: *SPAM* Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge I don't mind the traffic of xfree, but the cygwin list has too much traffic. There IS traffic on xfree? Looks this has escaped me then. :P -a -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/ -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
Will Parsons wrote: You may not consider it a compelling argument, but I find the traffic on the cygwin list more than enough already, and am glad I don't have to bother about the cygwin-xfree traffic. I'd prefer to keep things as is. But on xfree, there IS NO traffic! Just check the archives to get an insight into this: http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-xfree/ This is ridiculously few compared to 2 years ago when Harold L Hunt put more work into this _per week_ than all people together summed up from summer to end of this year! -Andreas -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: cygwin and cygwin-xfree lists to merge
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Andreas Eibach wrote: But on xfree, there IS NO traffic! This is ridiculously few compared to 2 years ago when Harold L Hunt put more work into this _per week_ than all people together summed up from summer to end of this year! That may have been true until November 12. But in the last four weeks since X11R7.4, there have been ~500 messages on cygwin-xfree, including 30 announcements (including 3 xserver revisions). Comparatively, there have been ~660 messages on cygwin including ~45 announcements. Yaakov Cygwin/X -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Cygwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREIAAYFAklAVB4ACgkQpiWmPGlmQSPvBwCeIzsrcy+ySk0YmXiWms6kVIhZ sasAoP6zo/Qqcn04wCbkiqVuHEx9XkMb =DR3t -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
