Re: Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Duncan Frissell wrote: At 12:29 PM 3/1/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: Capitalism is not equivalent to freedom in any manner. If anything the pursuit of capitalist goals has driven more abuse than help by many orders of magnitude. There is a reason the Constitution doesn't mention business rights or commerce in general except in two sections (i.e. inter-state commerce and the pursuit of happiness (it's implied)). You (like the Supremes) forgot: Section. 10. Clause 1: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. Which is completely and utterly off topic. One of the sorriest strawman attempts I've seen from you in a long time. Nowhere in there does it mention 'business' only generating money that is independant of the federal system. Capitalism is not the answer to anything, it's the mechanism that funds the society not defines it. Nothing more, most especialy it is not the final goal of human effort. Capitalism is an attack formation created by that great Classical Economist Karl Marx. Classical Economics has been obsolete since the middle of the last century and the development of Neo-Classical Economics and the Theory of Marginal Utility. Bullshit, 'classical' smassical. You're playing word games and saying nothing. "Capitalism" isn't the answer to anything but liberalism is. These days we liberals use the term market liberalism in the US to distinguish ourselves from the followers of Karl who use that term liberalism here because they're too chicken to call themselves socialists. Liberalism isn't the answer to anything either. Respect and toleration are. Liberalisms are people who are smart enough to know that anyone calling themselves a socialist in a democratic system is going to get exactly what they deserve. The future is downloading. Can you hear the impact? O[rphan] D[rift] Cyber Positive The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
At 12:29 PM 3/1/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: Capitalism is not equivalent to freedom in any manner. If anything the pursuit of capitalist goals has driven more abuse than help by many orders of magnitude. There is a reason the Constitution doesn't mention business rights or commerce in general except in two sections (i.e. inter-state commerce and the pursuit of happiness (it's implied)). You (like the Supremes) forgot: Section. 10. Clause 1: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. Capitalism is not the answer to anything, it's the mechanism that funds the society not defines it. Nothing more, most especialy it is not the final goal of human effort. Capitalism is an attack formation created by that great Classical Economist Karl Marx. Classical Economics has been obsolete since the middle of the last century and the development of Neo-Classical Economics and the Theory of Marginal Utility. "Capitalism" isn't the answer to anything but liberalism is. These days we liberals use the term market liberalism in the US to distinguish ourselves from the followers of Karl who use that term liberalism here because they're too chicken to call themselves socialists. DCF Republican politicians are better than Democrat politicians because they don't support gun control so if you don't like them you can just shoot them. -- P. J. O'Rourke
Re: Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any government needs appropriate leadership, that is an assumption, as yet unproven. I agree that it DOES sound good, but it is still an assumption. since the rest of your argument rests on it, you should give it a little more support. especially in its infancy.. and those leaders need to be dedicated to that government deep in their bones. one could argue (playing devils advocate here) that a GOOD government system is good enough to survive a couple crooks. I don't think that the United States has done so well because representative democracy and capitalism are so great and clearly superior. I think we have done well because the Founder's, for all their faults, truly believed in the ideals of the government they were creating.. and so they got us off on a good start. We have since fucked it up but good. from what I can see from over here - yepp. but it isn't much different here, only that our foundations are a bit younger (1945) and thus there's still a bit of it left. :-/
Re: Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
Missouri FreeNet Administration wrote: :Erm, what, Russia is not good enough an example for you? No, it is definitely not. the USSR (not "Russia" BTW) was no more a genuine communist state than the US is a genuine capitalist state. :If you agree (and I :don't speak for you) that there is no perfect version of capitalism, but the :USA is the closest, Sorry, I do not agree with this statement. It is mere propaganda. See above. So ok, what then is a good version in your eyes of communism and capitalism? No. Prefall USSR was an almost perfect example of Fascism. I'd venture to say that the USA's government is pushing fascism slowly. But that it is a capitalist system. I'd also venture to say that while Russia wasn't fully communist, it was the closest any government got to it. But again, I don't force you to agree. :Ok, well, just go and ask the Average Russian(tm) if he gives a rat's ass about :some Average American(tm) bitching about how his beer and his pack of :cigarettes are too expensive these days, or about any other topic. I'd guess :(remember, I don't speak for the Average Russian either) that he'd say "Fuck :you" in so many words. This argument does not address my point. I have just as much of a problem with the average Russian not giving a rats ass about my beer and cigarettes. I'm fatally flawed in that I believe that a thinking creature (and I am convinced that at least *some* humans fall into this category) must use this ability to serve *everybody*. That may well be best done through serving ones self, but this is not the question under consideration here. I think your argument then is quite moronic. You cannot honestly expect someone to care about something that does not affect them either way. I don't expect you to care either way about how much I liked or disliked my breakfast, or what color my morning shit was. It's irrelevant to your life in the same way that a Russian would find your beer and cigarettes. In a word, not everyone will care about the same things. This isn't up for debate, it's reality. You might or might not like it, but that's irrelevant to reality. :Bottom line - it's human nature to not be interested in what doesn't affect you :directly. I disagree: that is animal nature. If man wants to claim the higher ground, s/he will have to play the part. Whatever. I'm not here to argue your opinions on how humans should be. But I've stated how we are. You might not like it, but again, reality is. Hope isn't. There is a distinct difference between the concepts of "first hand knowledge" and "not giving a rats ass". That you see them as one in the same is the root of the problem here. No I don't. I've had first hand knowledge of something, I can speak for it. I might have had first hand experiences about something and not given a rat's ass either. And I might not have had first hand knowledge of something, nor given a rats ass about it. You are being quite moronic here. Again, you can disagree if you wish, it's your right. But unless your arguments begin to approach logic and reality, I won't retract that opinion. :Doubtful. As long as you can make money, what's the difference? I don't really give a rats ass about the money: don't you *get it*? A LOT of us don't care about he friggin money!!! I work because I find it fulfilling. The day that stops, I look for new work: money has not *once* been the issue. I have taken STEEP pay cuts for jobs I found attractive, as well as big increases. The money just doesn't matter to me. What difference does it make if you have "enough"? Enough is defined here as enough to pay the utilities, medical expenses, and car parts for my aging 1986 piece of American S**T (I *love* learning how to fix it's broken parts!). Food is noce, etc. Just how much does that *take*? Certainly nowhere *near* what I am used to being paid. Would I work for free? Yes. I've done it. A lot. Give away the money I haven't used? Yep. That too. And if you asked whether I gave a rats ass, my answer would be no. Look, do whatever makes you happy. I'm not forcing your hand one way or another. It's your life, you make your choices. But as soon as you force me to do what YOU do, it's not freedom. I think we are seeing here the actual capitalist (actual == native belief) vs the actual communist/socialist/democratrist (I often wonder where I should try to pigeonhole myself. Closest to Libertarianism..). Except for one little thing: you're free to do with your life what you will. Under a communist regime, that wouldn't be the case. While you may be perfectly happy working for nothing and giving your money away, I wouldn't. But again, I wouldn't force you to accept money and keep it, but a communist state would force me to work for free. I'm not stating that you would force me to work for free, but as soon as "you" become a government, that would be the
Re: Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
Amen brother! Sing it again! Ain't nothing sweeter than freedom. And that's as capitalist as you can get. Now if only Uncle Sam would stop fucking it over with bullshit anti-gun, anti-speech, insane taxes, and pro-bureocractic regulation bullshit laws! Curtis Fockler wrote: Come on out of the basement boys. Try North Korea and Cuba for a commie view, for all you socialist, take a look at European friends, yeah that works well, or maybe take a look at what the bitch wanted to do with health care, thank-you freaks who put that pair in office. Lets take a look over to the sandy shore and and see what nerve gas they are testing on their people today. People and the right, yeah, I think the USA is good enough for me. Yeah we have Waco, Ruby ridge and all the crap. But we are able to have all the crap and play a role in it if we want. Try that somewhere else in the world and see what happens. Freedom baby, sing it loud and proud, some people don't get to pick, but I do, and I pick freedom baby, sweet freedom. P.S. and to all those that bitch about having a choice, LEAVE... take care and protect that freedom... And if you get a chance to travel abroad and experience some of other people's freedom in the world, do it and lets see you bitch about something you know nothing about. Oh yeah, what ever go god you believe in loves you, try that somewhere else, I know, I know, don't mix the pol relg, sorry -- Kaos Keraunos Kybernetos + ^ + Sunder "Only someone completely distrustful of /|\ \|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]all government would be opposed to what /\|/\ --*-- we are doing with surveillance cameras" \/|\/ /|\ You're on the air. -- NYC Police Commish H. Safir. \|/ + v + Say 'Hi' to Echelon "Privacy is an 'antisocial act'" - The FedZ. http://www.sunder.net --- I love the smell of Malathion in the morning, it smells like brain cancer.
Re: Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Sunder wrote: :Missouri FreeNet Administration wrote: : : (J.A. Terranson donned his extra heavy asbestos underwear, then appended : his thoughts thusly...) : : (1) I would argue that there has yet to *be* an actual *Communist* state : by which we could gauge the Communist existense. : :Erm, what, Russia is not good enough an example for you? No, it is definitely not. the USSR (not "Russia" BTW) was no more a genuine communist state than the US is a genuine capitalist state. :If you agree (and I :don't speak for you) that there is no perfect version of capitalism, but the :USA is the closest, Sorry, I do not agree with this statement. It is mere propaganda. See above. :then would not pre-fall Russia be a perfect example of :Communism/ No. Prefall USSR was an almost perfect example of Fascism. : (2) I have a *big* problem with Americans not caring what conditions are : like in the rest of the world: it allows us to continue to both tolerate : and perpetrate such crimes as we have been committing in Iraq over the : last 10 years or so. And then of course there are the shenanigans in : Honduras, Columbia, and let's not forget our dear "friends" the : Sandinistas... American apathy for all things not *directly* (we don't, : as a people, seem to understand the concept of indirect events) affecting : America^h^h^h^h^h^H The "United" States is our greatest (IMNSHO) fault. : :Ok, well, just go and ask the Average Russian(tm) if he gives a rat's ass about :some Average American(tm) bitching about how his beer and his pack of :cigarettes are too expensive these days, or about any other topic. I'd guess :(remember, I don't speak for the Average Russian either) that he'd say "Fuck :you" in so many words. This argument does not address my point. I have just as much of a problem with the average Russian not giving a rats ass about my beer and cigarettes. I'm fatally flawed in that I believe that a thinking creature (and I am convinced that at least *some* humans fall into this category) must use this ability to serve *everybody*. That may well be best done through serving ones self, but this is not the question under consideration here. : (3) As for the statement (which I choose to take as a "stand alone", e.g., : not requiring the support of McG's other positions) that most Americans : are oblivious to the conditions they themselves live in: I believe it is : true only in the sense that we as a people very much *choose* to *fein* : this lack of insight. : :Bottom line - it's human nature to not be interested in what doesn't affect you :directly. I disagree: that is animal nature. If man wants to claim the higher ground, s/he will have to play the part. :I honestly couldn't give a rats ass at what went on in Bosnia. If you asked me :what I thought of millions of people getting killed, I'd tell you it's a sad :thing, and I do feel it's sad. But it doesn't affect me. It's not "real" to :me the same way that living my own life is. Knowledge as an outsider and first :hander are different. There is a distinct difference between the concepts of "first hand knowledge" and "not giving a rats ass". That you see them as one in the same is the root of the problem here. : Interesting side story here(to prove my assertion that these high-wage, : low physical effort jobs are in fact *forced* on much of the population : as a sort of opiate): Recently (last 6 weeks or so) I have been making : the job rounds (boredom has *definitely * set in). Just for the *fun* of : it, I applied to about a dozen "shitbox" jobs: Jack-in-the-box, MickyD, : etc. One of them went so far as to "permit" me to take their applicant : "test" (How many burritos do you need for an order with 2 burritos? g). : Not a single one of them called me back. I was *serious* about taking : these jobs: the money was unimportant, but not a single one of these : places could be convinced of that. On the other hand, when I finally gave : up and went back to applying for jobs more "in my field g", I managed 4 : immediate offers (of which only 2 look interesting). : :Interesting experiment... :) It wasn't done as an experiment though: I was legit in wanting that job. I just wanted a change of pace, with something *totally* new and different to learn (how to make 4 million french fries in 1 afternoon *is* a new skill for me ;-). I wouldn't have applied if I wasn't serious. : No matter how you slice it, we are forced into the peter principle in this : country. Is this a bad thing? I'm not really sure, although I *am* a : little bit bitter that I won't get to wear a red baseball cap with pins : all over it and ask if you would like that Super-Sized ;-) : :Doubtful. As long as you can make money, what's the difference? I don't really give a rats ass about the money: don't you *get it*? A LOT of us don't care about he friggin money!!! I work because I find it fulfilling. The day that stops, I look for new
