French Nazis censor internet site

[Subcommander Bob]

Thursday September 20 1:12 PM ET

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010920/wr/attack_france_internet_dc_1.html

Frenchman Probed for Web Site Applauding
Attacks

PARIS (Reuters) - A Frenchman who allegedly set up an internet
site applauding the
deadly attacks on U.S. landmarks and urging Muslims to fight a
holy war is being
investigated for encouraging suicide acts, judicial sources said
Thursday.

Smain Bedrouni is under formal judicial investigation after
being accused of creating
stcom.net, a U.S.-based Web site that calls for ``jihad.''

Endorsing suicide attempts which aim to kill others is illegal
in France.

The daily newspaper Le Figaro said the site was blocked earlier
this week by hackers
but was soon accessible again to the public after it squeezed
space on the server of a
U.S. company.

France has been swift to clamp down on extremist or racist Web
sites. A French
judge made headlines last year with a controversial ruling that
Yahoo! Inc. block
French citizens' access to its U.S.-based auction site featuring
Nazi memorabilia.

Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have been on the lookout for
sites in their networks
that incite violence since last week's terror attacks on the
United States in which
6,000 people were killed or are missing.

Zimmermann's guilty showertime shame... what a farce.

[Anonymous]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Quoting the Washington Post Article: To Attacks' Toll Add a
Programmer's Grief...

Contributing to [the guilt] is the hate e-mail [Zimmermann] got
Sunday night.

It began, "Phil -- I hope you can sleep at night with the blood of
5,000 people on your hands." PGP has become a "weapon of war," the
e-mail continued, leveling the playing field between powerful
countries like the United States and "zealots."

Zimmermann read the words over and over again the next day, trying to
think of a way to respond. But in the end, the man who is known in
the technology world for his rousing speeches and meticulous debates
didn't know what to say.

* * *

You have GOT to be kidding me.

How about: "Sorry, I only accept e-mail encrypted to my PGP key. You
can obtain my key at http://pgpkeys.mit.edu"; ?

Grow a spine, Phil, you jellyfish. You think Ford is upset because
their U-Haul truck was used by Timmy to blow up the Federal Building?
Tears in the shower? Please... spare me. This isn't a fucking Dickens
novel or the goddamn string section of the orchestra in an Elgar
piece. Do we have to get Brando to slap you around in the smoky back
room and tell you to be a fucking man? Unreal.

Oh, how the great (or at least those with decent PR acumen) have
fallen. Sad, very very sad.

None of you spineless dilettantes deserve privacy or freedom. Nearly
30% don't mind detention camps for legal aliens to affect a review of
their status? Sheesh. The United States so richly deserve the police
state that even now approaches that it will be a piece of lyrical
poetic justice if it does in fact come to pass. Bittersweet poetry
perhaps, poetry none the less. Land of the free my ass. Home of the
slave, I should rather think.

People, until the libertarian or privacy or crypto or whathaveyou
movements develop the same lust for the political (and actual)
jugular commonplace among their opponents they will ever be a
fractional and sidelined distraction. Nothing more.

September 11, 2001 fails to mark the end of the privacy movement only
if its proponents grow a backbone. None seems forthcoming. Zimmermann
should have hit the lecture circuit immediately with passionate
resolve for his cause, rather than being reduced to a withering pool
of Jello by some 90 IQ random with an AOL account. What a farce. To
think I once had respect for the man.

Shame on you for fostering a thinly-veiled anti-crypto op-ed piece.
You could of at least gotten 30 pieces of silver, rather than
settling for the kind of public sing-song sympathy more commonly seen
from the audience on the Jenny Jones show or the afternoon TV viewers
of a tearful "I have sinned against you..." public confession. I hope
it was worth it, you invertebrate.

And really, in the end, how absolutely arrogant of you to think that
you somehow reach the level of importance in world affairs that could
genuinely self-attribute a significant degree of responsibility for
the events of September 11th.

Again, I hope it was worth it. The price the rest of us may pay for
your insatiable vanity might be dear indeed.

- -lain


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 7.0.1

iQA/AwUBO6uBrf6o0E6piE+3EQKaUACgtsCP5oMWoOPHHUcZnoZm2vO0zDIAniZf
OvUVsIJNq4bf0ZK/uAFqf18v
=rsMH
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Zimmermann's shameful display...

[Anonymous]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Sandy Sandfort said:

> Spineless "Anonymous" or "lain" or whomever wrote:

>> Grow a spine, Phil, you jellyfish.

>a) Anonymous fell for the oldest trick in book, he uncritically
>believed what he read in the newspaper. Missed my forwarded message
>from Phil, did you?

There are two possibilities. Either Phil is a jellyfish or he's just
a naive self-promoting snake. In either case the best possible
scenario is that Phil is the one who fell for the oldest trick in the
book. He assumed the reporter would simply cater to his overbloated
vanity and take Phil's representations at face value, report them
accurately and otherwise refuse to impose any ulterior motive or
agenda on those comments. Shame on Phil. Shame on the press? Maybe.

The rest of us have to take the reporter at face value. He/she/it was
the one who talked to Phil on this occasion, not us. Too bad Phil
gave it the ammo it needed. Too bad. Pride goeth before the fall and
all that.

I am sickened by the number of people, including Phil, using the
events of September 11 to promote their own agendas or otherwise get
some face time with a camera, a mic, or a press and then pleading
innocent later. At least have the stones to admit that your being a
Machiavellian slime if you get busted. Christ.

> b) Anyone who knows anything about what Phil has done in the face
> of the threats against him, has no right to call him a jellyfish.
> On the other hand, anyone who knows anything about Anonymous...oh,
> that's right, no one knows anything about Anonymous because he
> hides behind a pseudonym.

Oh, I know quite a bit about Phil and I have met him and talked with
him one on one extensively at least thrice.

I have every right to call him a jellyfish, especially when he is
being one and particularly given his former spinelike resistance in
the face of great personal risk. That Phil is gone. Has been for some
while. (I'll wager he doesn't pal around with you on a regular basis
anymore either, Sandy).

Dateline: Silicon Valley, "Programmer more impacted by the deaths of
5,500 complete strangers than everyone else." What a load of shit.
How did he EXPECT the article was going to come out in the BEST case?

And then there's Sandy. Sandy, I have watched you as a supposed
advocate of freedom, libertarian ideals, privacy, anonyminity,
consistently bad mouth about every anonymous poster on this list who
has anything of importance to say. It never fails around here that
you will attempt to use their Mixmaster expertise against them. That
is the worse kind of hypocrisy on your part and I'm sorry (and not so
sorry) that you don't see it.

>> None of you spineless dilettantes deserve

>> privacy or freedom...

>Everyone deserves privacy and freedom, even you, Mr. jellyfish.

Those who earn it deserve it, no one else. There is no privacy
welfare program here. Even less so now. The government is not going
to protect your privacy. The health care system is not going to
protect your privacy. The courts are not going to protect your
privacy. Anyone who believes there is some fundamental right of
privacy recognized in the United States is either in fantasy land or
has been taking too much Thorazine for the last 50 years. (Jim
Choate, are you awake? Time for some Choate-o-grams on the bill of
rights).  A certain cryptographer PR maven of note once said "If
McDonald's gave away a free Big Mac in exchange for a DNA sample
there would be lines around the block." Sheep. Make your own privacy
you lazy idiots, or get none.

>> Zimmermann should have hit the lecture
>> circuit...

>Anonymous, please let us know where and when you will be lecturing

>next.

I have three talks in New York and one in Washington in the next 90
days.

>I'm sure we would all like attend one of your inspiring talks so
>that >we can learn how to be free by your example.

I'm sure you would like to, but I doubt you have gotten an invitation
to any of the three invitation only events.

>Give me a break.

You do not deserve one, at least not if you are as much of an
armchair "freedom fighter" as you appear in these eyes to be.

Sure, I have no doubt there are a series of Zimmermann apologists
here. I have little doubt that they will rush to Phil's aid. That
doesn't change the basic fact that Phil, like some kind of high
school graduate sports celebrity who has recently decided they are a
foreign policy expert and should be commenting to anyone who will
listen on the fate of Tibet or some other horseshit, decided he would
chime in about his own personal connection to September 11th. What a
big man everyone will think he is. Please.

Whine whine, the reporter misquoted me. Spare me.

Surprise, surprise he got burned (or didn't and is even more
spineless to shrink away from the backfire of his PR tactic). I have
no sympathy either way. I have no respect for that kind of behavior.
Nor should I. Despite the cute dissection of the article on this list
by Zimmermann Apo

RE: Zimmermann's shameful display...

[Sandy Sandfort]

Anonymous lain wrote:

> I have three talks in New York and one in
> Washington in the next 90 days.

Ha, ha, ha.

> I'm sure you would like to, but I doubt you
> have gotten an invitation to any of the three
> invitation only events.

Yes, it is difficult to get invitations to anonymous lectures.  Especially
those that are only figments of some big talkers imagination.  Film at
11...not.


 S a n d y

Email Marketing Works! Cheap & Effective!

[tfqqktmb9uk]

  

  
Explode
Your Business With Internet Marketing
Direct
Email Works!  You're Reading This Email Right?
Just Imagine That We Sent Out Another 9,999,999
Emails Like This One!

  
  

   

  
Why It
Works
If
you have a product or service that people want at a desirable price,
then Direct Email works because it is cost effective.  You can
deliver your message to 1 Million people for only $449.  That's
right it's less than a classified ad that would only reach a fraction of
the audience.  
What
We Offer You
We offer a suite of services to make your
Direct Email Marketing efforts truly "effortless" for you
.  It's a complete turnkey solution for you...but you can obviously
choose to participate in any one aspect of it if you like.  This
services include:

  
  


  

  

  
Direct
Email Sending Service - We can send out up to 10 Million
emails a week for you alone for only $449/million and we
supply email addresses
  
Email
Creation Service - We can create an effective email piece
for your campaign
  
Bullet-Proof
Direct Hosting - We can host your site so it does not get
shut down for Direct marketing for as little as $399 per month
  
Remove
List Management - We will manage your remove requests for
FREE 


  

  




  

  
Easy
As 1...2...3...
It's easy to get started!  Simply place your order today and start
mailing the same day.  Hosting is usually set up the same day or
the very next day.  Creative work can usually be turned around
same-day also.  So you can actually be mailing your message to 1
Million people today!  
 Simply call
(800) -
528 - 3548 to get more information.
 
   

  




NOTE:
  This email was
  sent to you because your email is part of a targeted opt-in list.  If
  you do not wish to
   receive further mailings, please click below and enter
  your email at the bottom of the page.  You may then 
 rest-assured that
  you will never receive another email from us again.  UNSUBSCRIBE ME
  PLEASE 
  #022481

Re: PGP author under fire for terrorist use of crypto

[baptista]

Mr. May - you have a wonderful sense of humour.  Thanks you for this
mornings laught.  And it made a good point.

regards
joe

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote:

> On Friday, September 21, 2001, at 10:12 AM, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:57:18 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Craig Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Matthew Gaylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: PGP author under fire for terrorist use of crypto
> >
> > Matt:
> >
> > Don't know if this is of interest or not.  It appears that Phil 
> > Zimmermann
> > is taking heat directly over the whole crypto - terrorist thing.
> >
> > Details at:
> >
> > 
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> 
> 
> www.blissninnytimes.com/headlines:
> 
> "A descendant of the inventor of the "Venetian blind" window covering 
> has expressed shock, sorrow, and regret for the evil deeds of his 
> great-grandfather. He says he cries every day as he thinks about the 
> misdeed that the curtain industry has made possible.
> 
> Harvey Wimpelbert, heir to the Venetian Blind Company fortune, has 
> apologized to the world for his family's involvement in helping 
> terrorists, pornographers, and other criminals  to "hide behind the 
> curtains my family helped foist upon the world."
> 
> "I support the government's demands that curtains be banned so that the 
> legitimate needs of law enforcement may be met. Everyday I cry for 
> several hours over the horrors that are being committed out of the view 
> of our noble policemen," he sobbed.
> 
> "People who place curtains or blinds over their windows obviously have 
> something to hide," said Homeless Defense   Minister Ridge.
> 

-- 
The dot.GOD Registry, Limited

http://www.dot-god.com/

Re: Avoid hard targets tomorrow

[Tim May]

On Friday, September 21, 2001, at 09:02 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I think I may take a brief away-from-DC trip...
>
> >From the London TImes
> >
> >THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 20 2001
> >
> >Weekend alert as FBI warns of new attack
> >
> >BY DOMINIC KENNEDY AND DAMIAN WHITWORTH
> >
> >AMERICA and the West are bracing themselves for another potential
> >"Day of Infamy" this Saturday, when accomplices of the hijackers are
> >suspected of having plotted new outrages.


If the growing street protests/riots in Pakistan (Pesawar, Karachi, 
Islamabad) trend toward a new ultra-Islamic, pro-Taliban government, I 
expect India to strike first. India cannot allow a nuclear state on its 
border with Taliban leanings. India will knock out Pakistan's nuclear 
capabilities if it can.

A nuclear war between India and Pakistan will utterly dwarf recent 
events, will crash the Dow to 1000, and will have other profound 
consequences.

Interestingly, there's been a run on potassium iodide capsules, gas 
masks, and guns. It may be that nothing happens, of course, but it shows 
what happens when people wait until the stampede starts to shop for 
supplies.

(Yes, I still have my KI tablets, my other supplies. I never got a real 
gas mask, for fairly obvious reasons. The best defense is to avoid 
crowded areas. And at the slightest sign (on CNN, etc.) that people are 
showing up at hospitals in more-than-normal numbers, to stay indoors and 
not mingle with vectors. Good sources are Ken Alibek's "Biohazard," 
Laurie Garrett's "The Coming Plague," and Judith Miller's new "Germs.")


--Tim May

Re: PGP author under fire for terrorist use of crypto

[Eric Cordian]

Tim Lampoons:

> "I support the government's demands that curtains be banned so that the 
> legitimate needs of law enforcement may be met. Everyday I cry for 
> several hours over the horrors that are being committed out of the view 
> of our noble policemen," he sobbed.

Is Sears crying because maybe Bin Laden owns one of their hammers?

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

Online FEMA course: \"Emergency Response To Terrorism Self Study\"

[auto301094]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-


Free training from the FEMA Emergency Management Institute:

Emergency Response to Terrorism: Self-Study

"This course is self-paced, paper-based document and is designed to provide the
basic awareness training to prepare first responders to respond to incidents of
terrorism safely and effectively. Students who successfully complete the exam
will be eligible for a FEMA/BJA certificate of training."

Target Audience: Fire, emergency medical, hazmat, incident command and law
enforcement responders.

Download Emergency Response to Terrorism: Self Study (5.0 MBytes)

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/nfa/tr_ertss1.htm

Other free FEMA online courses available at:
http://www.fema.gov/emi/crslist.htm

Also of possible interest...

"Compendium of Weapons of Mass Destruction Courses"
http://www.usfa.fema.gov/pdf/cwmdc.pdf


***

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects."

- - Robert A. Heinlein



-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: Hush 2.0

wl8EARECAB8FAjurwPgYHGF1dG8zMDEwOTRAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEKadvsVlUK4P
jTIAnRbbfJ83Vg45c8bnnogJ8u+sn09IAJ9rRd/dQLj7K1AidysD9G6SGi2QJA==
=7eY2
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: PGP author under fire for terrorist use of crypto

[lizard]

Matthew Gaylor wrote:
> 
> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:57:18 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Craig Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Matthew Gaylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: PGP author under fire for terrorist use of crypto
> 
> Matt:
> 
> Don't know if this is of interest or not.  It appears that Phil Zimmermann
> is taking heat directly over the whole crypto - terrorist thing.
> 
> Details at:
> 
> 
> 
Phill couldn't write a reply to that moron? Well, as a fan of free
speech, I hereby offer my services gratis to Mr. Zimmermann, providing
him with a useful boilerplate letter to use the next time someone claims
he is responsible for terrorist acts.

Dear (Fuckwit/Moron/Shit-For-Brains/Fundementalist)

You are accusing me of somehow helping terrorists, claiming that if PGP
did not exist, there would still be a World Trade Center. Put simply --
you're an imbecile.

Let us consider. For your accusation to be true, the
FBI/CIA/NSA/AAA/AARP/etc would have had to have been spying on a
terrorist cell, intercepting their communications, knowing they were
planning something, but unsure what due to encryption. However, the fact
is, the terrorists involved were not being monitored. Encrypted or
unencrypted, their communications never reached the various alphabet
soup agencies whose responsibility it is to harass innoc^h^h^h^h protect
democracy. As it is, these agencies are drowining in excess data, far
more than they can read or process in any reasonable span of time.
Encrypted data is lost in the bitstream. 'Backdoors' are useful only
when you already know who to listen to -- and this is more likely to be
a political opponent of the current administration than a criminal. The
spirit of J. Edgar Hoover haunts every agency in the government.

What is needed is a lot more humint and a lot less sigint. Sigint is
only useful if you know who to look at and when to watch them -- and
encryption software doesn't have anything to do with that. 

If you wish to be useful, stop writing hatemail proving your ignorance,
and, instead, donate blood. ALL of it. Stand over a bucket, and slit
your wrists -- up, not across. You are clearly too stupid to live. (Call
the Red Cross first so they can get it before it spoils.)

Worried about new anti-terror laws?

[Declan McCullagh]

Folks worried about future anti-terror laws may want to read up on existing 
laws first. --Declan

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/798.html
US Code as of: 01/23/00
Sec. 798. Disclosure of classified information
7   (a) Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, 
or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or 
uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United 
States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the 
United States any classified information -
7   (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code,
cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any
foreign government; or
7   (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or
repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or
planned for use by the United States or any foreign government
for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or
7   (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the
United States or any foreign government; or
7   (4) obtained by the process of communication intelligence from
the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to
have been obtained by such processes -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or 
both.
7   (b) As used in subsection (a) of this section -
The term ''classified information'' means information which, at the time of 
a violation of this section, is, for reasons of national security, 
specifically designated by a United States Government Agency for limited or 
restricted dissemination or distribution;
The terms ''code,'' ''cipher,'' and ''cryptographic system'' include in 
their meanings, in addition to their usual meanings, any method of secret 
writing and any mechanical or electrical device or method used for the 
purpose of disguising or concealing the contents, significance, or meanings 
of communications;
The term ''foreign government'' includes in its meaning any person or 
persons acting or purporting to act for or on behalf of any faction, party, 
department, agency, bureau, or military force of or within a foreign 
country, or for or on behalf of any government or any person or persons 
purporting to act as a government within a foreign country, whether or not 
such government is recognized by the United States;
The term ''communication intelligence'' means all procedures and methods 
used in the interception of communications and the obtaining of information 
from such communications by other than the intended recipients;
The term ''unauthorized person'' means any person who, or agency which, is 
not authorized to receive information of the categories set forth in 
subsection (a) of this section, by the President, or by the head of a 
department or agency of the United States Government which is expressly 
designated by the President to engage in communication intelligence 
activities for the United States.
7   (c) Nothing in this section shall prohibit the furnishing, upon lawful 
demand, of information to any regularly constituted committee of the Senate 
or House of Representatives of the United States of America, or joint 
committee thereof.
7   (d)
7   (1) Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall forfeit to 
the United States irrespective of any provision of State law -
7   (A) any property constituting, or derived from, any proceeds
the person obtained, directly or indirectly, as the result of
such violation; and
(B) any of the person's property used, or intended to be used,
in any manner or part, to commit, or to facilitate the commission
of, such violation.
7   (2) The court, in imposing sentence on a defendant for a conviction of a 
violation of this section, shall order that the defendant forfeit to the 
United States all property described in paragraph (1).
7   (3) Except as provided in paragraph (4), the provisions of subsections 
(b), (c), and (e) through (p) of section 413 of the Comprehensive Drug 
Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970 (21 U.S.C. 853(b), (c), and 
(e)-(p)), shall apply to -
7   (A) property subject to forfeiture under this subsection;
7   (B) any seizure or disposition of such property; and
(C) any administrative or judicial proceeding in relation to
such property, if not inconsistent with this subsection.
7   (4) Notwithstanding section 7   524(c) of title 28, there shall be 
deposited in the Crime Victims Fund established under section 1402 of the 
Victims of Crime Act of 1984 (42 U.S.C. 10601) all amounts from the 
forfeiture of property under this subsection remaining after the payment of 
expenses for forfeiture and sale authorized by law.
7   (5) As used in this subsection, the term ''State'' means any State of the 
United States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, 
and any territory or possession of the United States.


http://www4.law

Re: Zimmermann's guilty shame... what a farce.

[Meyer Wolfsheim]

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> Grow a spine, Phil, you jellyfish. You think Ford is upset because
> their U-Haul truck was used by Timmy to blow up the Federal Building?
> Tears in the shower? Please... spare me. This isn't a fucking Dickens
> novel or the goddamn string section of the orchestra in an Elgar
> piece. Do we have to get Brando to slap you around in the smoky back
> room and tell you to be a fucking man? Unreal.

Before launching your tirade against Phil, did you perhaps stop and think
that this could be an entirely inaccurate representation of what Phil
actually said to the reporter?

In an earlier article, Phil is quoted, and does not sound "guilty" or
"ashamed" for having written PGP:

http://www.washtech.com/news/netarch/12557-1.html


> Zimmermann should have hit the lecture circuit immediately with
> passionate resolve for his cause, rather than being reduced to a
> withering pool of Jello by some 90 IQ random with an AOL account. What
> a farce. To think I once had respect for the man.

Frankly, I wouldn't know of any diplomatic way to respond to the email in
question either.

> Shame on you for fostering a thinly-veiled anti-crypto op-ed piece.

I *highly* doubt that Phil would have given this interview if he had known
that was the slant the reporter was going to take.

This is why I generally do not speak to reporters. Most are self-serving
sensationalistic jackasses, or simply clueless. Poor Phil, still believing
in the idea that unbiased journalism is a realistic concept.

> And really, in the end, how absolutely arrogant of you to think that
> you somehow reach the level of importance in world affairs that could
> genuinely self-attribute a significant degree of responsibility for
> the events of September 11th.

Again, I see nothing quoted in that article that would lead me to believe
those are Phil's thoughts, rather than the reporter's.

>From http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1234-2001Sep20.html

Let me break this down here:

"Like many Americans, Phil Zimmermann, a stocky, 47-year-old computer
programmer, has been crying every day since last week's terrorist
attacks."

Many of us, indeed, shed tears because of the events on Tuesday. Because
of the loss of life, because of the actions of our own country that led to
these attacks, because of the anticipation of the loss of liberties we'll
face in the future, because of the fact that such violence is possible...
many reasons why one would cry over the attacks and deaths of more than
5000 people.

"He has been overwhelmed with feelings of guilt."

Notice, no quote that would confirm this.

"Zimmermann is the inventor of a computer program called Pretty Good
Privacy, or PGP. He posted the tool for free on the Internet 10 years
ago;"

Incorrect. Kelly Goen posted it, not Phil.

"it was the first to allow ordinary people to encrypt messages so only
those with a "key" could read them."

Also incorrect. PEM based systems existed.

"No government or law enforcement agency has been able to get in."

Tell that to our dear mob friend in New Jersey sitting in jail right now.
Clearly this journalist does not believe in checking her facts.

"People warned Zimmermann back then that he could be putting powerful
technology into the wrong hands. He knew that was theoretically possible,
but he also knew that the program could do good: His work created a way
for people in oppressed countries to communicate without fear of
retribution."

True.

"Now the government is investigating whether Zimmermann's technology or
another scrambler was used by the hijackers to coordinate last week's
attacks, and U.S. lawmakers are calling for new restrictions on the use
and distribution of the technology."

There has been no evidence made public whatsoever to suggest that
hijackers used PGP to coordinate these attacks. The reporter made that up
out of whole cloth. The US government is investigating a lot of things; no
where has it been stated that they are paying any special attention to a
PGP - bin Laden link.

"Zimmermann and other fathers of encryption say it may be too late, given
that the technology has spread all over the world."

Too late for what? Too late to provide any "safety" to citizens by
depriving them of the security that PGP affords, that's what. This is a
watered down version of the argument that laws against crypto will not
stop criminals from using it, since it is widely and freely available.

"In a telephone interview from his home in Burlingame, Calif., Zimmermann
said he doesn't regret posting the encryption program on the Internet. Yet
he has trouble dealing with the reality that his software was likely used
for evil."

Phil probably said that he doesn't regret *writing* PGP, since he is
always very clear that he did not post it. If he were in fact overwhelmed
with guilt, he'd be regretting having written it. And the idea that "his
software was likely used for evil" has nothing to do with reality. Another
error on the

Re: Zimmermann's guilty shame... what a farce.

[Meyer Wolfsheim]

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> Grow a spine, Phil, you jellyfish. You think Ford is upset because
> their U-Haul truck was used by Timmy to blow up the Federal Building?
> Tears in the shower? Please... spare me. This isn't a fucking Dickens
> novel or the goddamn string section of the orchestra in an Elgar
> piece. Do we have to get Brando to slap you around in the smoky back
> room and tell you to be a fucking man? Unreal.

Before launching your tirade against Phil, did you perhaps stop and think
that this could be an entirely inaccurate representation of what Phil
actually said to the reporter?

In an earlier article, Phil is quoted, and does not sound "guilty" or
"ashamed" for having written PGP:

http://www.washtech.com/news/netarch/12557-1.html


> Zimmermann should have hit the lecture circuit immediately with
> passionate resolve for his cause, rather than being reduced to a
> withering pool of Jello by some 90 IQ random with an AOL account. What
> a farce. To think I once had respect for the man.

Frankly, I wouldn't know of any diplomatic way to respond to the email in
question either.

> Shame on you for fostering a thinly-veiled anti-crypto op-ed piece.

I *highly* doubt that Phil would have given this interview if he had known
that was the slant the reporter was going to take.

This is why I generally do not speak to reporters. Most are self-serving
sensationalistic jackasses, or simply clueless. Poor Phil, still believing
in the idea that unbiased journalism is a realistic concept.

> And really, in the end, how absolutely arrogant of you to think that
> you somehow reach the level of importance in world affairs that could
> genuinely self-attribute a significant degree of responsibility for
> the events of September 11th.

Again, I see nothing quoted in that article that would lead me to believe
those are Phil's thoughts, rather than the reporter's.

>From http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1234-2001Sep20.html

Let me break this down here:

"Like many Americans, Phil Zimmermann, a stocky, 47-year-old computer
programmer, has been crying every day since last week's terrorist
attacks."

Many of us, indeed, shed tears because of the events on Tuesday. Because
of the loss of life, because of the actions of our own country that led to
these attacks, because of the anticipation of the loss of liberties we'll
face in the future, because of the fact that such violence is possible...
many reasons why one would cry over the attacks and deaths of more than
5000 people.

"He has been overwhelmed with feelings of guilt."

Notice, no quote that would confirm this.

"Zimmermann is the inventor of a computer program called Pretty Good
Privacy, or PGP. He posted the tool for free on the Internet 10 years
ago;"

Incorrect. Kelly Goen posted it, not Phil.

"it was the first to allow ordinary people to encrypt messages so only
those with a "key" could read them."

Also incorrect. PEM based systems existed.

"No government or law enforcement agency has been able to get in."

Tell that to our dear mob friend in New Jersey sitting in jail right now.
Clearly this journalist does not believe in checking her facts.

"People warned Zimmermann back then that he could be putting powerful
technology into the wrong hands. He knew that was theoretically possible,
but he also knew that the program could do good: His work created a way
for people in oppressed countries to communicate without fear of
retribution."

True.

"Now the government is investigating whether Zimmermann's technology or
another scrambler was used by the hijackers to coordinate last week's
attacks, and U.S. lawmakers are calling for new restrictions on the use
and distribution of the technology."

There has been no evidence made public whatsoever to suggest that
hijackers used PGP to coordinate these attacks. The reporter made that up
out of whole cloth. The US government is investigating a lot of things; no
where has it been stated that they are paying any special attention to a
PGP - bin Laden link.

"Zimmermann and other fathers of encryption say it may be too late, given
that the technology has spread all over the world."

Too late for what? Too late to provide any "safety" to citizens by
depriving them of the security that PGP affords, that's what. This is a
watered down version of the argument that laws against crypto will not
stop criminals from using it, since it is widely and freely available.

"In a telephone interview from his home in Burlingame, Calif., Zimmermann
said he doesn't regret posting the encryption program on the Internet. Yet
he has trouble dealing with the reality that his software was likely used
for evil."

Phil probably said that he doesn't regret *writing* PGP, since he is
always very clear that he did not post it. If he were in fact overwhelmed
with guilt, he'd be regretting having written it. And the idea that "his
software was likely used for evil" has nothing to do with reality. Another
error on the

Jim Warren on Op-ed on encryption: Privacy is no longer an argument

[Matthew Gaylor]

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:07:57 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Jim Warren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: FC: Op-ed on encryption: Privacy is no longer an argument
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dave Farber), [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthew Gaylor)

>http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/09/21/0450203
>
>Crypto Op-Ed: Privacy No Longer an Argument
>posted by admin on Thursday September 20, @11:39PM
>
>M. W. Guzy has a provocative and not entirely coherent essay
>in Wednesday's St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Excerpt: "(Then-Senator
>John) Ashcroft wrote that mandating deciphering tools was tantamount
>to requiring 'individuals to surrender the keys to their house... to
>the FBI just in case they are someday suspected of breaking the law.'
>Somehow, that argument rings a little hollow when viewed through the
>smoldering ruins of the World Trade Center...

SHEESH!  Are these anti-secure-crypto advocates REALLY that 
INCREDIBLY stupid and naive?!

The thing that continues to drive me bonkers about this kind of 
simplistic crap is that pretends aht Trade Center bombers, 
international terrorists, child molesters and murders will stop using 
globally-available strong crypto just because a law prohibits it, or 
give up ("escrow") their crypto keys just because a law requires it!

EVERY time we circulate yet-another idiot's message like this -- 
calling for limits on secure crypto or forced key escrow -- ALL of us 
NEED to attach a head-note pointing out that terrorists et al, are 
HARDLY likely to obey that law ... that instead, it will ONLY be 
law-abiding businesses and citizens who will LOOSE the ability to 
protect their sensitive corporate and personal communications (*and* 
files!) from competitors, foreign spies, and nosy voyeurs.

--jim
Jim Warren; [EMAIL PROTECTED], Senior Contributing Editor, MICROTIMES Magazine
345 Swett Rd, Woodside CA 94062; voice/650-851-7075; fax/off due to spam-glut

[self-inflating puffery: InfoWorld founder; Dr.Dobb's Journal founding editor;
PBS-TV Computer Chronicles founding host; DataCast Magazine founder;
John Dvorak Lifetime Achievement Award; Autodesk Board of Directors (1990-95);
Electronic Frontier Foundation Pioneer Award (in its first year);
Soc.of Prof.Journalists-Nor.Calif. James Madison Freedom-of-Information Award;
Playboy Foundation's Hugh Hefner First-Amendment Award; blah blah blah]


**
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**

The Myth of Posse Comitatus

[mean-green]

The Myth of Posse Comitatus 
MAJ Craig T. Trebilcock, USAR 

The Posse Comitatus Act has been traditionally viewed as a major barrier to the use of 
U.S. military forces in planning for homeland defense. In fact, many in uniform 
believe the Act precludes the use of U.S. military assets in domestic security 
operations in any but the most extraordinary situations. As is often the case, reality 
bears little resemblance to the myth for homeland defense planners. Through a gradual 
erosion of the Act’s prohibitions over the past twenty years, Posse Comitatus 
today is more of a procedural formality than an actual impediment to the use of U.S. 
military forces in homeland defense.  
 
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/Articles/article.cfm?article=7

Open Meeting: RAND Congressional Advisory Panel on WMD Terrorism

[auto301094]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-



Congressional Advisory Panel to Assess Domestic Response Capabilities for
Terrorism Involving Weapons of Mass Destruction (The Gilmore Commission)

Next meeting: Sept. 24th from 9:00 am until 4:00 pm at the RAND Washington
Office - 1200 North Hayes Street.

Boilerplate: "The Advisory Panel will assess the capabilities for responding to
terrorist incidents in the U.S. homeland involving weapons of mass destruction.
Response capabilities at the Federal, State, and local levels will be examined,
with a particular emphasis on the latter two. The Secretary of Defense, in
consultation with the Attorney General, the Secretary of Energy, the Secretary
of Health and Human Services, and the Director of the Federal Emergency
Management Agency, has entered into a contract with the National Defense
Research Institute (NDRI), a federally funded research and development center
(FFRDC) at RAND, to establish the Advisory Panel in accordance with Section
1405 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1999, Public Law
105-261 (H.R. 3616, 105th Congress, 2nd Session) (October 17, 1998)."

Interesting background PDF: "Toward a National Strategy for Combating Terrorism"
http://www.rand.org/nsrd/terrpanel/terror2.pdf

RAND site: http://www.rand.org/nsrd/terrpanel/


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: Hush 2.0

wl8EARECAB8FAjurg90YHGF1dG8zMDEwOTRAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEKadvsVlUK4P
mV8AnRwIRyTYZpsFkPyHMNGYLahmtT53AJ9a9X3rVJc+GXPxPKdMSjpEjBrfAw==
=I+NA
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

RE: Zimmermann's guilty shame... what a farce.

[Sandy Sandfort]

Spineless "Anonymous" or "lain" or whomever wrote:

> Grow a spine, Phil, you jellyfish.

a) Anonymous fell for the oldest trick in book, he uncritically believed
what he read in the newspaper.  Missed my forwarded message from Phil, did
you?

b) Anyone who knows anything about what Phil has done in the face of the
threats against him, has no right to call him a jellyfish.  On the other
hand, anyone who knows anything about Anonymous...oh, that's right, no one
knows anything about Anonymous because he hides behind a pseudonym.

> None of you spineless dilettantes deserve
> privacy or freedom...

Everyone deserves privacy and freedom, even you, Mr. jellyfish.

> Zimmermann should have hit the lecture
> circuit...

Anonymous, please let us know where and when you will be lecturing next.
I'm sure we would all like attend one of your inspiring talks so that we can
learn how to be free by your example.

Give me a break.


 S a n d y

Redux: mass hate

[Aimee Farr]

My introductory post (below) was based on a WMD domestic terrorism scenario,
to predict surveillance end-states.

Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:40:22 -0600
From: Aimee Farr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:  Crypto McCarthyism ...thoughts, gentlemen?


o What do you think about [1-2]?
o Contemporary parallels? (use of crypto as an aggravating factor in
punishment, etc.)
o Finally, how could [3] come about in the context of crypto (and other
digital freedoms)?

===
Electronic Journal of Sociology (1996)
ISSN: 1176 7323
Cyber McCarthyism: Witch Hunts in the Living Room
http://www.sociology.org/content/vol002.001/ling.html



[1] "This paper examines the potential for electronic communication to spark
mass hate such as that seen in colonial Salem and during the McCarthy
period."

[2] "The elements which go into the development of mass hate include the
following: 1) strains on the community through the recognition of a moral
boundary crisis and identification of villains, 2) crystallizing of
patterned labeling through a degradation ceremony, 3) appropriation of the
social apparatus and suppression of critique mechanisms, 4) restoration of a
normal situation."

[3] "Finally, the fervour came under control. In both of these cases this
occurred when the mass hate became a serious threat to the established power
structure, members of the government in the case of colonial Salem and the
Army in the case of McCarthyism."




Tim's comments for historical reference.


> "On the Internet, no one knows you're a bitch."


And, from Declan...


> Since the paper is so flawed, I'm not sure it's worth discussing at
length.
> But, briefly, is crypto as threatening as witches were? Far from it. It --
> and its derivative technologies, such as anonymity -- seems to be
perceived
> more as a way to reclaim lost privacy rather than a new and unusual
threat.
> In that sense, it is a conservative technology. (This could change, and
> certainly the intelligence community is hand-waving about terrorists
again,
> but I doubt it'll have much luck.)

> -Declan


And this, from Choate


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psychohistory/message/2810



~Aimee

osamawatching with 200 spectral bands and < 1 m resolution commercial

[Subcommander Bob]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1548000/1548860.stm

  US spy satellites have been given new
  instructions to concentrate their attention on
  Afghanistan and the search for Osama Bin
  Laden, and groups associated with him, sources
  have told BBC News Online.

  So-called Signal Intelligence (Sigint) satellites,
  designed to intercept radio and mobile phone
  traffic, have been "retasked", as have two spy
  satellites that take high-resolution images.

  The use of Sigint satellites marks a departure
  from normal procedure, as they are not usually
  used to gather intelligence about dissident groups
  in that region.

  BBC News Online also understands that US
  military sources have also made approaches to
  two commercial satellite operators, to use data
  from two private imaging satellites that will be
  launched in the next few weeks.

  Following conversations

  The so-called "retasking" of spy satellites is an
  unusual step that reflects the seriousness of the
  response to the hijack plane attacks on New York
  and Washington DC.

  Sigint satellites monitor electromagnetic signals
  and send them to sophisticated listening posts
  scattered over the globe where they are relayed
  to supercomputers in the US for analysis.

  In co-operation with the
  Echelon phone, fax and
  e-mail monitoring system
  that is also searching for
  evidence of subversive
  activity, the Sigint data
  are analysed using
  sophisticated programs
  that allow information to
  be extracted from the
  jumbled signals. It is
  thought that when
  conditions are favourable, individual mobile
  phone conversations can be followed.

  The main suspect identified by the US for last
  Tuesday's attacks, Osama Bin Laden, is said not
  to use mobile phones, for fear of being
  eavesdropped. But US military officials are clearly
  hoping that they may intercept some phone
  coverage, a task that should be helped by the
  small size and sparse communications
  infrastructure in Afghanistan - the country where
  Bin Laden is thought to reside.

  Imaging spy satellites are also returning
  high-resolution images back to the Pentagon.

  These images, able to detect individual people,
  will also be studied by computer to spot
  movements that could help analysts pinpoint Bin
  Laden.

  Private help

  Military officials are also considering using the
  capabilities of two private satellites that will be
  launched in the next few weeks.

  The first of these, Orbimage-4, is due to be put
  into orbit on 21 September from California.

  This is a private
  remote-sensing satellite
  with unique capabilities.
  It carries a camera that
  takes images in 200
  spectral bands -
  designed to analyse
  surface composition.

  Military analysts are
  considering whether it
  could be used to see
  through camouflage, which is often used by those
  on the ground who do not want their activities
  exposed by spy satellites passing overhead.

  The other satellite, Quickbird, to be operated by
  Digitalglobe, is set for launch on 18 October. It will
  have the greatest resolution of any non-military
  satellite. Able to see detail smaller than a metre,
  Quickbird could be used when military spy
  satellites are not in the correct place.

CNN: Congressman pushes for more encryption

[Steve Schear]

WASHINGTON--A U.S. lawmaker well versed in technology issues said Friday 
that government bodies and citizens should use more encryption, not less, 
to increase security on the Internet.

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7249721.html?tag=lh

RE: Zimmermann\'s shameful display...

[citizenq]

I am enjoying, in a macabre sense, watching the great Rorschach Test that events have 
turned out to be, where everyone's own impression of the world is reflected in their 
interpretations to a much greater degree than usual.

Everyone is acting like a bunch of assholes, snotty know-it-alls, children, and 
infantile technoids. And most of us are ostensibly more on the same side than not.  It 
gives one pause with regard to the behavior between people who DISagree about these 
and similar kinds of issues. 

Aimee - is this predicted in your worldview?

>Sandy Sandfort said:
>
>> Spineless "Anonymous" or "lain" or whomever wrote:
>
>>> Grow a spine, Phil, you jellyfish.
>
>>a) Anonymous fell for the oldest trick in book, he uncritically
>>believed what he read in the newspaper. Missed my forwarded message
>>from Phil, did you?
>
>There are two possibilities. Either Phil is a jellyfish or he's just
>a naive self-promoting snake. In either case the best possible
>scenario is that Phil is the one who fell for the oldest trick in the
>book. He assumed the reporter would simply cater to his overbloated
>
>
>
>
>And then there's Sandy. Sandy, I have watched you as a supposed
>advocate of freedom, libertarian ideals, privacy, anonyminity,
>consistently bad mouth about every anonymous poster on this list who
>has anything of importance to say. 

I've seen Declan and Tim doing this even more so, but there are deep issues regarding 
the clash behind the theory of Reputation Capital and the Cypherpunk mandate that 
anonymity is an essential component of privacy.  

an interesting read

[Riad S. Wahby]

I'm not sure I agree with it, and it's probably all been said before,
but I thought some might like reading this.

--

From: Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (Ret)


Recently, I was asked to look at the recent events through the lens of
military history.  I have joined the cast of thousands who have written an
"open letter to Americans."


Dear friends and fellow Americans 14 September, 2001


Like everyone else in this great country, I am reeling from last week's
attack on our sovereignty. But unlike some, I am not reeling from surprise.
 As a career soldier and a student and teacher of military history, I have
a different perspective and I think you should hear it. This war will be
won or lost by the American citizens, not diplomats, politicians or
soldiers.

Let me briefly explain.

In spite of what the media, and even our own government is telling us, this
act was not committed by a group of mentally deranged fanatics. To dismiss
them as such would be among the gravest of mistakes. This attack was
committed by a ferocious, intelligent and dedicated adversary. Don't take
this the wrong way. I don't admire these men and I deplore their tactics,
but I respect their capabilities. The many parallels that have been made
with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor are apropos. Not only because it
was a brilliant sneak attack against a complacent America, but also because
we may well be pulling our new adversaries out of caves 30 years after we
think this war is over, just like my father's generation had to do with the
formidable Japanese in the years following WW II.

These men hate the United States with all of their being, and we must not
underestimate the power of their moral commitment. Napoleon, perhaps the
world's greatest combination of soldier and statesman, stated "the moral is
to the physical as three is to one." Patton thought the Frenchman
underestimated its importance and said moral conviction was five times more
important in battle than physical strength. Our enemies are willing -
better said anxious-to give their lives for their cause.

How committed are we America? And for how long?

In addition to demonstrating great moral conviction, the recent attack
demonstrated a mastery of some of the basic fundamentals of warfare taught
to most military officers worldwide, namely simplicity, security and
surprise. When I first heard rumors that some of these men may have been
trained at our own Air War College, it made perfect sense to me. This was
not a random act of violence, and we can expect the same sort of military
competence to be displayed in the battle to come.

This war will escalate, with a good portion of it happening right here in
the good ol' U.S. of A.

These men will not go easily into the night. They do not fear us. We must
not fear them. In spite of our overwhelming conventional strength as the
world's only "superpower" (a truly silly term), we are the underdog in this
fight. As you listen to the carefully scripted rhetoric designed to prepare
us for the march for war, please realize that America is not equipped or
seriously trained for the battle ahead. To be certain, our soldiers are
much better than the enemy, and we have some excellent "counter-terrorist"
organizations, but they are mostly trained for hostage rescues, airfield
seizures, or the occasional "body snatch," (which may come in handy). We
will be fighting a war of annihilation, because if their early efforts are
any indication, our enemy is ready and willing to die to the last man.
Eradicating the enemy will be costly and time consuming. They have already
deployed their forces in as many as 20 countries, and are likely living the
lives of everyday citizens. Simply put, our soldiers will be tasked with a
search and destroy mission on multiple foreign landscapes, and the public
must be patient and supportive until the strategy and tactics can be worked
out.

For the most part, our military is still in the process of redefining
itself and presided over by men and women who grew up with - and were
promoted because they excelled in - Cold War doctrine, strategy and
tactics. This will not be linear warfare, there will be no clear "centers
of gravity" to strike with high technology weapons. Our vast technological
edge will certainly be helpful, but it will not be decisive. Perhaps the
perfect metaphor for the coming battle was introduced by the terrorists
themselves aboard the hijacked aircraft-this will be a knife fight, and it
will be won or lost by the ingenuity and will of citizens and soldiers, not
by software or smart bombs. We must also be patient with our military
leaders.

Unlike Americans who are eager to put this messy time behind us, our
adversaries have time on their side, and they will use it. They plan to
fight a battle of attrition, hoping to drag the battle out until the
American public loses its will to fight. This might be difficult to believe
in this euphoric time of flag waving and patriotism, but i

ANNC: PGP Key-signing party @ ITSA Day in Gnv. Fl, USA

[V Alex Brennen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

In the interest of helping organizations attending the ITSA Security Day
conference establish a best practices model of computer security policy,
e-TechServices.com will be sponsoring a PGP Key-signing party.

The PGP key-signing party held during the ITSA Security Day on Wednesday,
September 26th, 2001 from 12:15pm - 12:45pm at the e-TechServices.com
table at the Retiz Union in Gainesville, Florida.

Full details at:

http://www.e-techservices.com/events/key_signing_party.html

What's a key-signing party?

A key-signing party is a get-together with PGP users for the purpose of
meeting other PGP users and signing each other's keys. This helps to
extend the "web of trust" to a great degree. Also, it sometimes serves as
a forum to discuss strong cryptography, computer security, and related
issues.


Required Items?

1. Physical attendance
2. Positive picture ID
3. A printout of your PGP key's fingerprint information
4. A pen/pencil or whatever you'd like to write with


Why should I use PGP?

You should use PGP, in order to protect your business and personal emails
from being read by individuals or entities other than your intended
recipient(s). You should also use PGP in order to protect against the
forgery or alteration of official communications from your organization.
PGP, when used correctly, can provide message privacy, message integrity,
message authentication, and to some degree non-repudibility.


OK. What are some good applications of PGP?

Protection of email traffic of a sensitive nature, such as the
coordination of response to ongoing security incidents, requests for DNS
modifications, the exchange of passwords, requests for networking changes,
and exchange of sensitive personal information like SSNs. At the very
least, it would be useful to have all such messages signed, so the
recipients could be sure that the notes were not forged. PGP can also be
used to provide the same protection in the area of computer software
distribution. For example PGP can be used in software distribution where
security is critical, such as in the distribution of computer security
patches or other security related software updates.


Why should I participate in the ITSA Day keysigning party?

The formation of a robust web of trust with a deep level of
interconnectivity is the foundation for the security and utility of PGP.
Participating in the key signing event will allow you to become integrated
into the web of trust and thereby place your organization and yourself in
a position to enjoy the benefits of the PGP technology. Participation will
also help to promote the use of PGP and reinforce people currently using
PGP resulting in a more safe and secure computing environment for us all.
The more people who use PGP, the stronger PGP becomes.

A graph of the Web of Trust formed at recent keysigning parties in
Gainesville is available at:

http://www.cryptnet.net/fdp/crypto/strong_distro/full-wot.png

Please, forward this note to anyone who may be interested in attending.
Also, please fee free to contact me for personal assistance with key
generation or additional information on participating.

Links:

http://www.itsa.ufl.edu/";>ITSA Security Day
http://www.e-techservices.com/";>e-TechServices.com


- VAB

- ---
V. Alex Brennen[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 [ http://www.cryptnet.net/people/vab/ ]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQE7q20i+pIJc5kqSz8RAkfJAJ9nwZHJw0OzWf7IkP86I0VI4G62rwCgq9l5
rj3D7hWQSDa7nQkWCor0KlI=
=+4s+
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Sun Setting On Uncle Sam's IT Empire

[Steve Schear]

[Note: this is a posting from Dave Farber's IP list. Dave has some 
interesting points to make about the decline and fall of IT in the US.]

>The following is an article published in the Australian Financial Review
>reporting on a talk I gave at the First Tuesday meeting in the new
>IT/residential complex being developed in the Gold Coast in Queensland
>Australia on 4 Nov 2001. There were about 100 + people attending and they
>were highly interactive. A streaming video was taken and I am trying to get
>it on line and available for IPers.
>
>Till then this article requires a bit of commentary by me to put certain
>comments in perspective and to slightly elaborate on the reporters
>comments. I have inserted then in [..].
>
>Please also note that the article uses quotations that are snips of a hour
>long talk and question period and that context and detail are missing. I
>intend to produce a more complete white paper elaborating several of the
>points I have made.
>
>I understand this steps on many feet but I believe what I said at the talk.
>
>As usual comments are welcome.
>
>Dave
>
>__
>
>Sun Setting On Uncle Sam's IT Empire
>
>Helen Meredith 09/07/2001
>
>Australian Financial Review
>
>The global dominance of the American IT sector was in decline, with its
>industrial research labs dead and the industry no longer rich, a leading US
>researcher and academic told a group of technologists on the Gold Coast
>this week.
>
>Dr David Farber, a former adviser to president Bill Clinton and chief
>technologist at the Federal Communications Commission, said the US economy
>was not healthy and the IT industry was perceived to be in deep trouble.
>``We are seeing the passing of an era in which we did some grand
>experiments. The net bubble burst with a vengeance. We had forgotten one
>very important thing you need a business plan to survive,'' he said.
>
>``Now we are having a healthy dose of reality but it has taken too long to
>happen. ``In what was once a rich industry, most companies have backed off
>or destroyed their research. We are creating a lost generation.' [ leading
>to the lack of new ideas and people to create them] ' The US Government was
>going to have to accept that industry could no longer fund R&D. Innovation
>would have to come out of the experimental science labs of the
>universities. It would be up to the universities to generate the next wave
>of technology, and to do this they would need government support. If this
>wasn't forthcoming, the country's IT would be starved of a future.
>
>[One senior manager of USG research is quoted as saying that research in IT
>is no longer needed since the USG can buy what it needs. My belief is that
>it will most likely have to buy it from China and other counties who will
>take the leadership the US is giving up]
>
>[ I added that there are several research labs left -- most notable
>Microsoft and IBM and that Microsoft's was in the spirit of places like the
>old Bell Labs while IBM was still active but increasingly obligated to show
>a profit and thus tended to be short focused]
>
>Dr Farber stressed that the role of government was to supply money and
>direction but not detail. ``Let the people who know how make the decisions
>and we all know that no sane bureaucrat is going to take a gamble [ again a
>broad evaluation worldwide especially parts of Asia]. What we need them to
>do is invest,'' he said. The dilemma was that the bureaucracy lacked IT
>know-how. ``The current Administration [ in the USA] is not hostile to
>IT,'' Dr Farber said. ``It just doesn't quite get it. One of the things you
>find out when you're working in Washington is that decisions made that are
>critical to our future and that require an understanding of technology are
>being made in the almost total absence of knowledge.
>
>[ I was making sweeping generalizations as was appropriate given the world.
>Places like the FCC have access, not enough, to technical input but they
>are one of the exceptions in a dismal picture ]
>
>``We [ the USA] are not alone in this. There are signs of the same thing
>happening in Australia. You need to get down to Canberra and help
>government know what the devil it is doing.''
>
>The crisis in the IT industry coincided with the onset of the broadband
>era. This was about to have a profound effect on society, in which the next
>10 years would have as big an impact as computing did in the past 30. The
>impetus would be the real arrival of optical technology, promising 80
>gigabits per wave per strand providing the bandwidth of the entire US
>backbone on a single strand.
>
>``This will have a profound impact,'' Dr Farber said. ``TCP/IP
>[transmission control protocol/internet protocol] will probably not survive
>this. Packet switching is probably the wrong idea for optical networking.
>Photons don't like to have things done to them photonic packets [switching
>at high speed] look[s]

RE: Zimmermann\'s shameful display...

[John Young]

But isn't obligatory for all world class cpunks to have
several nyms they post under, and to bad mouth
and obsequy those fictions with exactly the same 
identifiable writing style, shifting one register to the
left then to the right? I have here a list of names
and perfectly intercoggal nyms.

The evidence shows that some of these gearheads 
have been arguing and agreeing with themselves for 
years online and off.

One though, a master of disguise, hides in front of
a true name and never argues, never agrees, only
pristines flawless prose.  A clue: chews ghat, doesn't spit.

PHIL ZIMMERMANN

[Sandy Sandfort]

C'punks,

I just wrote Phil about the Washington Post interview.  The following is his
response:

> The journalist slightly misinterpreted my remarks, and missed the
> shades of grey in some of what I said.  I did *not* say that I
> was overwhelmed with guilt over PGP.  I told her about my crying,
> just as everyone else I knew had cried over what had happened.  I
> also told her about the hate mail, and that I "felt bad" that the
> terrorists may have used PGP.  Indeed I do feel bad about that.
> But feeling bad about them using it is not the same as feeling
> that PGP was a mistake, or that I have changed my principles
> about human rights and crypto.  I thought I had also made it
> clear that I had no regrets about developing PGP.  She did not
> report any individual facts incorrectly in her article.  But I
> think she connected the dots in a slightly different way, and
> seemed to conclude that I was wallowing in guilt over PGP.  I'm
> sure she meant no harm.
>
> I am still very much aware that PGP was a good thing, and that
> strong crypto helps more than hurts.  I have been saying that to
> the press all week.  I just said it again in two more interviews
> I had before breakfast this morning, and will continue to say it.
>  It seems I have to say it more forcefully.
>
> I will prepare a statement on this later today.  In the meantime,
> feel free to let our colleagues know that I have not gone soft on
> civil liberties.
>
> Regards,
> Phil

Re: Sun Setting On Uncle Sam's IT Empire

[Tim May]

On Friday, September 21, 2001, at 04:50 PM, Steve Schear wrote:

> [Note: this is a posting from Dave Farber's IP list. Dave has some 
> interesting points to make about the decline and fall of IT in the US.]
>

I worked in Intel's R&D group for a number of years, and I still know 
many of the researchers. I was there when the mantle of chip research 
was effectively passed from IBM to Intel, where IBM and other computer 
companies came to Intel (and a few other chip companies) to learn more 
so than chip companies looked to IBM.


...
>> The global dominance of the American IT sector was in decline, with its
>> industrial research labs dead and the industry no longer rich, a 
>> leading US
>> researcher and academic told a group of technologists on the Gold Coast
>> this week.

This doesn't match what I know of Silicon Valley. Even with today's 
depressed stock market, the sheer amount of _money_ the leading chip and 
tech companies has dwarfs anything the rest of the world can put 
together.

That someone could argue that the "industry is no longer rich" and that 
the labs are "dead" is ludicrous.

>> Dr David Farber, a former adviser to president Bill Clinton and chief
>> technologist at the Federal Communications Commission, said the US 
>> economy

I hear he runs an interesting list, but as a judge of technology he 
looks pretty flaky.

>> was not healthy and the IT industry was perceived to be in deep 
>> trouble.
>> ``We are seeing the passing of an era in which we did some grand
>> experiments. The net bubble burst with a vengeance. We had forgotten 
>> one
>> very important thing you need a business plan to survive,'' he said.

Plenty of thriving businesses in Silicon Valley and elsewhere.

>> ``Now we are having a healthy dose of reality but it has taken too 
>> long to
>> happen. ``In what was once a rich industry, most companies have backed 
>> off
>> or destroyed their research. We are creating a lost generation.' 
>> [ leading
>> to the lack of new ideas and people to create them] ' The US 
>> Government was
>> going to have to accept that industry could no longer fund R&D. 
>> Innovation
>> would have to come out of the experimental science labs of the
>> universities. It would be up to the universities to generate the next 
>> wave
>> of technology, and to do this they would need government support. If 
>> this
>> wasn't forthcoming, the country's IT would be starved of a future.

Nonsense. The best R&D has come out of industrial labs. The nature of 
R&D has shifted, as the number of basic new discoveries has 
understandably declined.

>> [ I added that there are several research labs left -- most notable
>> Microsoft and IBM and that Microsoft's was in the spirit of places 
>> like the
>> old Bell Labs while IBM was still active but increasingly obligated to 
>> show
>> a profit and thus tended to be short focused]

And I can tell you that almost nothing of importance to IBM or the 
computer industry has come out of the Watson labs in the last two 
decades. A lot more has come out of Cisco, Intel, even Apple.

>> ``We [ the USA] are not alone in this. There are signs of the same 
>> thing
>> happening in Australia. You need to get down to Canberra and help
>> government know what the devil it is doing.''

Yeah, get that government boondoggle revved up in Australia.

What Australia needs is just _one_ major tech company...right now they 
have not a single world-class tech company.

>>
>> Dr Farber is the Alfred Fitler Moore Professor of Telecommunications
>> Systems at the University of Pennsylvania.
>

He doesn't know much about actual industry.


--Tim May

(fwd) [Oz-ISP] USG takes control of xpnder off PAS-2 (fwd)

[measl]

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:59:48 -0700
From: Rachel Warren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: (fwd) [Oz-ISP] USG takes control of xpnder off PAS-2


I thought this might interest NANOG:

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:11:39 +1000 (EST)
From: Terence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: AusBONE Members <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Oz-ISP] USG takes control of xpnder off PAS-2


Well, there must be a big war coming up, because the US govmint just
appropriated our PAS-2 transponder, effectively shutting down our regional
operations on October 15.

I'm more than happy for journalists to call me.

I may be sympathetic to the USG over terrorism, but they can't go around
putting AUSTRALIAN REGIONAL ISP's out of business...

---
Terence C. Giufre-Sweetser

+-+--+
| TereDonn Telecommunications Ltd |  Phone +61-[0]7-32369366 |
| 1/128 Bowen St, SPRING HILL |FAX +61-[0]7-32369930 |
| PO BOX 1054, SPRING HILL 4004   | Mobile +61-[0]414-663053 |
|  Queensland Australia   |  http://www.tdce.com.au  |
+-+--+


Rachel

-- 
http://www.plur.net/~rachel/misc/stock-market-nasdaq.jpg

Email snarfing

[mean-green]

I've recently encountered a number of email problems (delayed delivery, lost mail, 
etc.) both from my pop accounts and Hush.  I'm not trying to be paranoid but could 
these be caused by problems of TLA-installed transparent SMTP, POP, and HTTP proxies 
at ISP's in a man-in-the-middle mode, so that they'd be sure to see all traffic, 
because Carnivore's storage capacity is pretty limited?

Also, if missing email causes a sender to re-transmit the same message could this 
expose the message to some sort of replay-resend attack if the crypto isn't well coded?

Re: PGP author under fire for terrorist use of crypto

[Karsten M. Self]

on Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 01:12:27PM -0400, Matthew Gaylor ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
wrote:
> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:57:18 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Craig Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Matthew Gaylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: PGP author under fire for terrorist use of crypto
>
> Matt:
>
> Don't know if this is of interest or not.  It appears that Phil Zimmermann
> is taking heat directly over the whole crypto - terrorist thing.
>
> Details at:
>
> 

Terrorism is the art of what's now known as "asymmetric warfare".  It
uses the enemy's own strengths against itself.  With the very barest of
resources:  a few score operatives, basic training, minimal
communications.  It can achieve impressive amounts of damage,
particularly against soft targets, taken unawares.

My own assessment of 9/11 is that the attacks were likely only 1/3 to
1/4 effective.  Three of four known aircraft reached their targets.  A
fourth was disabled by an unarmed, unprepared, civilian force.
Appearances are that another two to four aircraft were originally
planned to be involveed in the attacks, as well as other possible
incidents based on other modalities.

The truth is that within an hour of the initial incidents, the country
was on a war footing.  Stories now indicate that Air Force fighter
intercepts were scrambled against the two planes targeted for the WTC
and were 12 minutes from intercept at the time of the attacks.
Shoot-to-kill appears to have been ordered against Flight 93.  Warnings
are now circulating for possible incidents on Saturday.

Our resources were used against us:  aircraft, freedoms, communications
networks, cars, highways.  Crypto is yet another tool.  It may be used
for good or evil, and in balance I suspect it does far more good than
otherwise.

Phil has no more cause than any of the rest of us to feel regret.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?  Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA!  http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire  http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Re: Zimmermann\'s shameful display...

[Declan McCullagh]

On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 04:37:36PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Everyone is acting like a bunch of assholes, snotty know-it-alls,

So you're new to the list?

-Declan

Re: Preparedness

[Neil Johnson]

Tim May wrote:

> "unrecoverable from." (Meaning, the best that could happen to survivors
> would be their evacuation out of the area to a fresh start in Missouri
> or Iowa or wherever

Unfortunately, Iowa and Missouri lie near the New Madrid Fault.

From: http://www.ceri.memphis.edu/public/facts_long.shtml :

"The greatest earthquake risk east of the Rocky Mountains is along the New
Madrid fault system. Damaging earthquakes are much less frequent than in
California, but when they do occur, the damage can be far greater, due to
the underlying geology.

The New Madrid fault system, or the New Madrid seismic zone, is a series of
faults beneath the continental crust in a weak spot known as the Reelfoot
Rift. It cannot be seen on the surface. The fault system extends 150 miles
southward from Cairo, Illinois through New Madrid and Caruthersville,
Missouri, down through Blytheville, Arkansas to Marked Tree, Arkansas. It
dips into Kentucky near Fulton and into Tennessee near Reelfoot Lake, and
extends southeast to Dyersburg, Tennessee. It crosses five state lines, and
crosses the Mississippi River in at least three places.

The great New Madrid earthquake of 1811-12 was a series of quakes that
happened over a three-month period. The main shocks, the three largest
earthquakes, were estimated to be greater than magnitude 8.0 Aftershocks
included two events around magnitude 8.0, five magnitude 7.7, ten magnitude
5.3, and eighty-nine estimated at magnitude 4.3. The entire fault system is
believed to have ruptured in this series of earthquakes. Aftershocks were
felt in the region for more than a year. This was the largest release of
seismic energy in the continental United States. The only other larger event
was the Great Alaska Earthquake, in 1964."

Probably not going to be on anybodies' "top ten places to live" after  being
through a major quake in CA.

-Neil Johnson

Millennium - Operating System Directions for the Next Millennium

[Jim Choate]

You can have it today...Plan 9

http://research.microsoft.com/research/sn/Millennium/mgoals.html
-- 

 --


 Kill them all, take their land, and go there for vacation.

 Rage Against The Machine

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Government credentials and picture IDs not a useful thing for Cypherpunks to require

[Tim May]

On Friday, September 21, 2001, at 11:04 AM, V Alex Brennen wrote:

> A key-signing party is a get-together with PGP users for the purpose of
> meeting other PGP users and signing each other's keys. This helps to
> extend the "web of trust" to a great degree. Also, it sometimes serves 
> as
> a forum to discuss strong cryptography, computer security, and related
> issues.
>
>
> Required Items?
>
> 1. Physical attendance
> 2. Positive picture ID
> 3. A printout of your PGP key's fingerprint information
> 4. A pen/pencil or whatever you'd like to write with


It's too bad so many people are so confused about what a "Web of Trust" 
is.

Do I need a "positive picture ID" of Lucky Green to communicate with him 
securely? Black Unicorn? Pr0duct Cypher? Eric Hughes? Attila the Hun?

The notion that a particular credential with a picture on it means 
anything, or should be given weight, is one of the most dangerous ideas 
there is. For the obvious reasons.

As a hint, the people you _don't_ want to trust are a helluva lot more 
likely to have nice, neat picture IDs than people like Lucky Green are.

--Tim May (not my true name)

Sen. Judd Gregg is drafting anti-encryption legislation

[Declan McCullagh]

More on renewed interest in regulating crypto:
http://www.wartimeliberty.com/search.pl?topic=encryption

*

http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/09/22/026245

Senator Judd Gregg Prepares Anti-Encryption Bill
posted by admin on Friday September 21, @09:05PM

Sen. Judd Gregg (R-New Hampshire), who called for global
backdoors in encryption products in a floor speech last week, is
readying legislation.

[...remainder snipped...]

Cost Effective Direct Email Advertising

[safelistemailer]

COST EFFECTIVE DIRECT EMAIL ADVERTISING

WITH

GUARANTEED RESULTS.


PROMOTE YOUR BUSINESS LOCALLY, NATIONALLY, OR INTERNATIONALLY
FOR AS LOW AS A NICKEL PER 1000 EMAIL ADDRESSES.

CLICK HERE TO SEE HOW

http://hometown.aol.com/broadcastads

Re: CDR: Re: Preparedness

[Jim Choate]

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Neil Johnson wrote:

> Probably not going to be on anybodies' "top ten places to live" after  being
> through a major quake in CA.

They'll move to Austin, lasty time I checked we were the least likely
place in the entire US to have a quake.


 --


 Kill them all, take their land, and go there for vacation.

 Rage Against The Machine

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Preparedness

[Tim May]

On Friday, September 21, 2001, at 08:44 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> * It's not just getting hit by an attack that we citydwellers may need 
> to worry about, but the disruption afterward. It seems, based on news 
> reports, that many thousands of New Yorkers were left without basic 
> water-gas-electricity-phone service after last week's attacks. Water, 
> food, warm clothes -- lucky it wasn't winter -- can be vital. Better 
> than a Red Cross handout shelter.
>
> * Folks in DC are starting to think through this. My intern told me 
> today he has a gas mask (not new, he's had it a while). It's sorta a 
> nervous joke -- echo of Y2K -- but as soon as there's another attack 
> anywhere, folks in DC and NYC will get serious real fast. 
> Biochemwomdnuke attack and all bets are off.

As I said, the odds are that not much will happen...for a while. In a 
few months, after nothing has happened, these folks now worried will be 
claiming they knew all along that nothing would happen. (Nothing 
happened, therefore nothing _could_ have happened, the logic of the 
Monday morning quarterback.)

But I'll bet a lot of the NYC elite spend more time at their homes in 
the Hamptons and in the country, even as winter comes on. They'll make 
sure to be in NYC for the galas (but not the big ones, the ones that 
might be targets).

> * I have family in NYC who were out of the country during the attacks. 
> Now they're back, and they say they're not as willing to live in NYC 
> permanently. Suburbia is looking far more attractive.
>
> * Aimee posted something in the last week or so that was comprehensible 
> for once (I've since lost the post), which was a URL for a folding 
> plastic gas-mask with a charcoal filter. I recall it didn't seem 
> designed for chemattacks; it would be interesting to know what it could 
> filter.

Well, I posted about the EVAC-U8 mask/hood, with a charcoal filter. 
Available from the usual sources, like Nitro-Pak and Botach. Probably 
sold out now, though. Useful in fires, but also any noxious fume 
situation...for about 10-20 minutes.

Any attack with VX or similar nerve gas would kill tens of thousands 
fairly quickly. Gas masks of no use, due to lack of coverage of all 
exposed skin, and leakage. Gas masks mainly useful for mustard gas, that 
sort of thing.

Preston's "The Cobra Event" is a pretty good novel about releasing a 
virus in crowded cities. This was of course the novel that scared 
Clinton into starting a series of reviews of biochemical terrorism plans.
>

> * The Washington City Paper has a horrific cover story this week on the 
> city's beyond-pathetic response to Tuesday's attacks:
> http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/cover/cover.html

Something that is more of a "Towering Inferno" issue than a terrorism 
issue is the complete absence of any firefighting efforts with the WTC. 
Yeah, I know about the 300 firefighters killed trying to evacuate 
people. But where were the aerial water- and foam-spraying aircracraft? 
Where were the choppers landing on the roof to pluck off those who got 
to the roof?

Nothing. It's apparent that the only plan to fight this fire was for the 
sophisticated sprinkler system to do its job. (Probably nothing could 
have dealt with the tons of aviation fuel dumped inside the buildings, 
but, still, the absence of any aerial fire-suppression efforts pretty 
much tells us what "The Towering Inferno" told us 25 years ago: tall 
buildings, taller than about 30 stories, are "on their own.")

> * Based on this kind of report, you've got to wonder what would happen 
> if there were biochemwomdnuke attacks. I note this WOMD is coming up a 
> bit more on the news than last week; part of it may be the news 
> networks looking for another story. Or it could be that DC-NYC city 
> dwellers are a bit more worried, and what they're worried about is 
> reflected on the air.

The planning over many years, the sleeper agents, and the coordinated 
element of surprise tells us that the next attack will NOT be with 
airliners. The surprise is lost, the planes will be shot down (if 
there's time...I still think a plane could be diverted from an airport 
into a crowded stadium near the airport faster than fighters could be 
scrambled), the pilots will shoot back, etc.

The fact that this attack was several years in the making tells us that 
the _other_ cells could in fact be preparing releases of anthrax, or 
nerve gas, or even smallpox. The AUM cult made their own nerve gas, more 
than once, so Al Qaida has had years to do even better. And we know how 
easy it is to make anthrax cultures.

Many ways to do it. Pellets lobbed with slingshots into a NYC "Parade 
for the Heroes." 40,000 people dying of anthrax.

A few cannisters of VX fired with a mortar. A football stadium with 
60,000 fans. And a live television audience seeing the convulsions 
begin...

> * If we knew what we know now and were building a terrorist-resistant 
> society, we could. Not terrorist-proof, but resis

Bio-Chem References...

[Jim Choate]

http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/main.asp
-- 

 --


 Kill them all, take their land, and go there for vacation.

 Rage Against The Machine

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

The hottest Teen and Hardcore girls!

[0002_007]

Title: Untitled Document





  

  

  CLICK
HERE FOR PURE HARDCORE SEX
171,000 XXX VIDEO FEEDS - THOUSANDS OF PICTURES
- 24/7 LIVE SEX CAMS EROTIC STORIES - HIDDEN CAMS - FULL-LENGHT MOVIES
- LIVE CHAT
  CLICK
HERE FOR THE NASTIEST TEEN GIRLS ON THE NET
 WEB'S YOUGEST WOMEN - TEENS SUPER
MODEL - CUSTOMIZABLE PICTURES - LIVE & INTERACTIVE VIDEOS ANAL - BLOWJOB
- FUCKING - YOUNG TEEN - CLOUSE UP - HARDCORE
  This
email has been requested by a user on your network and has not been
sent unsolicited. If the user does not recall requesting this email,
then another user has maliciously requested it for them. If this is
the case, please accept our apologies and CLICK
HERE TO REMOVE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS or send a email with
the subject "remove" to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  

  













Untitled Document

Re: PGP author under fire for terrorist use of crypto

[Tim May]

On Friday, September 21, 2001, at 10:12 AM, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:57:18 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Craig Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Matthew Gaylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: PGP author under fire for terrorist use of crypto
>
> Matt:
>
> Don't know if this is of interest or not.  It appears that Phil 
> Zimmermann
> is taking heat directly over the whole crypto - terrorist thing.
>
> Details at:
>
> 
>
> Regards
>
>


www.blissninnytimes.com/headlines:

"A descendant of the inventor of the "Venetian blind" window covering 
has expressed shock, sorrow, and regret for the evil deeds of his 
great-grandfather. He says he cries every day as he thinks about the 
misdeed that the curtain industry has made possible.

Harvey Wimpelbert, heir to the Venetian Blind Company fortune, has 
apologized to the world for his family's involvement in helping 
terrorists, pornographers, and other criminals  to "hide behind the 
curtains my family helped foist upon the world."

"I support the government's demands that curtains be banned so that the 
legitimate needs of law enforcement may be met. Everyday I cry for 
several hours over the horrors that are being committed out of the view 
of our noble policemen," he sobbed.

"People who place curtains or blinds over their windows obviously have 
something to hide," said Homeless Defense   Minister Ridge.

!!**Increase Your Sales Via Email !!!!!!!!

[juliesemail311]

SPECIAL REPORT REVEALS THE "TRUTH"
ABOUT HAVING A SUCCESSFUL ONLINE BUSINESS. . . . 

Our research has found that many people have 
tried one or more of the following...

Free Classifieds?  (Don't work)
Web Site?  (Takes thousands of visitors)
Banners?   (Expensive and iffy)
E-Zine?(They better have a huge list)
Search Engines?(Easily buried with thousands of others)

S O   W H A T   D O E S   W O R K ? 

Although often misunderstood, there is one method 
that has proven to succeed time-after-time.

  E - M A I L   M A R K E T I N G   ! !

It's a fact!  If you're not using your computer to generate income,
you're leaving money on the table. 

Here's what the experts have to say about E-Mail Marketing:

"A gold mine for those who can take advantage of
bulk e-mail programs" - The New York Times

"E-mail is an incredible lead generation tool"
-Crains Magazine

"Blows away traditional Mailing" - Advertising Age

Here is an example of your potential earnings if you have a product that
brings you a profit of around $30.  Remember, on the Internet, you can
make money 7 days a week, 24 hours a day... even while you sleep, orders
come from all over the world!

Orders Per Day   Weekly Earnings /  Monthly Earnings /  Yearly Earnings
1  $210.00   $840.00 $10,080.00
2  $420.00   $1,680.00   $20,160.00
3  $630.00   $2,520.00   $30,240.00
5  $1,050.00 $4,200.00   $50,400.00
   10  $2,100.00 $8,400.00   $100,000.00
   15  $3,150.00 $12,600.00  $151,200.00

THE QUESTION IS... how do you generate those orders?

OUR LATEST & GREATEST IS JUST RELEASED!  
 

>>> 15 MILLION NEW Addresses - Just Released! <<< 
THE VERY BEST email addresses available anywhere!!

The Million Adresses on CD is the ABSOLUTE BEST product of
its kind anywhere in the world today. There are NO OTHER
products ANYWHERE that can compete with the quality of this CD. 

O N E   O F   A   K I N D

This CD is a first.  No one... and we mean NO ONE has put in
the kind of work it takes to produce a CD of this quality.
We've been in the list brokerage business for over 5 years and
we've never compromised on quality.  We won't release any address
list until it passes our "high standards" test.

 Our claim to fame, is that our addresses are deliverable! 
The number #1 problem with email lists are deliverability.  You may 
have seen dozens of ads for lists or CD's or you may have purchased 
a list in the past.  Chances are, the list was produced 6 months, 1 year 
or even two years ago!  Not ours, a new volume CD comes out 
every  6-7 weeks.  

Here's how we prepare our e-mail lists:

1. We clean and eliminate all duplicates. 

2. Next, we use a filter list of 400+ words/phrases to clean even
more. No address with inappropriate or profane wording survive!

3. Then, a special filter file is used to eliminate the
"Web Poisoned" e-mail addresses from the list.  Our
EXCLUSIVE system reduced these "poison" addresses to near
zero.  You may have seen CD's with 30, 40, 50 million addresses,
not only do they contain may undeliverable addresses, but most 
are notorious for millions of these "poisoned"  email addresses.

4. Next we used our private database of thousands of known
"extremists" and kicked off every one we could find.  NOTE:
We maintain the world's largest list of individuals and
groups that are opposed to any kind of commercial
e-marketing... they are gone, nuked!

5. We sorted the list into easy-to-manage  packets of 100,000 addresses 
in a simple text (.txt) format. 

6. All domains have been verified as valid. 

WHAT DID WE END UP WITH?

  15 Million Addresses Strong!

 * N O   B R A G   -   J U S T   F A C T *

Getting this CD is equivalent to buying EVERY CD sold by
almost everyone else, combined... EXCEPT - it has been
cleaned and the quality is unsurpassed by any list in existence! 

With our super clean lists you'll send less...and get better
results... plus you can start mailing as soon as you receive
your CD!  

   * Y O U   G E T   W H A T   Y O U   P A Y   F O R *

Our 15 Million address on CD will result in:

* Higher Response Rates
* Higher Sales Conversion Ratios
* More Receptive prospects; Less Flames & Non-Buyers.
* Less Contact With Anti-Commerce Radicals & Extremists.

Remember that potential income chart at the beginning of
this message? Can you imagine the kind of money you could
make if you mailed one million pieces and sold only one
tenth (.01%) of one percent?  You do the math, you'll be
amazed!

This product will prove to be the best of it's kind compared
to ANY CD in terms of hours and money spent bringing it to
market. No competitor will ever duplicate the effort of what
it takes for us to produce this superb product.

We never have compromised on quality, and surely won't
release any product before it pa

CNN.com - Powell battles Pentagon over response strategy - September 20, 2001

[Jim Choate]

Go Colin!

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/20/ret.powell.divisions/

-- 

 --


 Kill them all, take their land, and go there for vacation.

 Rage Against The Machine

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

CNN.com - Bin Laden exploits technology to suit his needs - September 21, 2001

[Jim Choate]

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/20/inv.terrorist.search/
-- 

 --


 Kill them all, take their land, and go there for vacation.

 Rage Against The Machine

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Avoid hard targets tomorrow

[Declan McCullagh]

I think I may take a brief away-from-DC trip...

 >From the London TImes
 >
 >THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 20 2001
 >
 >Weekend alert as FBI warns of new attack
 >
 >BY DOMINIC KENNEDY AND DAMIAN WHITWORTH
 >
 >AMERICA and the West are bracing themselves for another potential
 >"Day of Infamy" this Saturday, when accomplices of the hijackers are
 >suspected of having plotted new outrages.
 >
 >The most solid evidence so far is the discovery that five associates
 >of the suicide gang had booked seats on two internal passenger
 >flights, taking them from Texas to California, in two days' time.
 >
 >FBI agents are trying to capture as many key operatives as possible
 >before any plot can be put into action.
 >
 >Water, gas and electricity suppliers, bridges, tunnels and
 >underground railways have increased security because of the perceived
 >threat of biological, chemical or physical attacks.
 >
 >In a dramatic development, three Arab airport workers in Detroit were
 >arrested after FBI agents found them in a house with handwritten
 >sketches of an airport, aircraft and runways. They had a notebook
 >containing information about the "American base in Turkey", "Alia
 >Airport" in Jordan and the "American foreign minister", legal
 >documents state. The three, Ahmed Hanna, 33, Karim Koubriti, 23, and
 >Farouk Ali-Halmoud, 21, from Morocco and Algeria, worked at Detroit
 >Metropolitan Airport preparing food for airlines.
 >
 >FBI agents stumbled across the trio while searching the address of
 >Habil al-Marabh, a suspected associate of the World Trade Centre
 >hijackers. The Arabs said that they did not know him. They have been
 >charged with conspiracy and having false immigration papers.
 >
 >The FBI is concentrating its energies on deterring more attacks this
 >Saturday. "Yes, we have heard something about September 22 but
 >nothing specific," an investigative source told America's Knight
 >Ridder news service.
 >
 >"We have information that leads us to believe that there could be
 >more attacks very soon. The same murky sources that indicated
 >something might be happening in the weeks before the attacks have
 >indicated something may be happening this weekend."
 >
 >Bob Graham, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said that
 >the New York and Washington suicide strikes were "part of a larger
 >plan with other terrorism acts, not necessarily the hijacking of
 >airplanes".
 >
 >The FBI has issued a "watch list" of 223 people suspected of being
 >associates of the hijackers. Nearly a quarter of the people on the
 >list are able to fly aircraft.
 >--

Re: somewhat encouraging...

[citizenq]

CNN's 'scrolling text' on The Tube last night mentioned "hundreds of campuses" but 
wasn't more specific.  The mainstream news won't have it till some shit hits the fan, 
but there's plenty if you dig just a bit.

>From the decidedly non-mainstream -

BAY AREA:
-

THU: Meeting of activists to plan and mobilize for a Sept 29th rally
Capp Street Center, 362 Capp Street, San Francisco


FRI: Social Justice Center of Marin Peace Vigil
Third & Irwin Streets, San Rafael

Sacramento Peace Vigil and protest against appearance of Henry Kissinger
Memorial Auditorium, 16th & "J" Street, Sacramento

SUN: Peace Gathering
Peri Park in Fairfax (across from 85 Bolinas Road)
www.askpeace.com

TUE: Sacramento Peace Vigil
Memorial Auditorium, 16th & "J" Street

On the day the US begins military action, there will be a protest rally at Powell and 
Market Street in San Francisco at 5 pm...If the war starts later in the evening, the 
protest will be held the next day at 5 pm. the day after the Powell and Market 
protest, there will be a Berkeley BART alert at the downtown Berkeley BART station at 
5 pm. 

www.craigslist.org (Craig's List) has an updated listing of events around the Bay Area

BOSTON AREA:


Upcoming Events for Peace (Cambridge Peace Commission and Boston Mobilization)

Tuesday September 18, Noon Vigil at the JFK building, government center, messages to 
Senators and Congress - no more victims, no money for militarism or retaliation (A 
small group from this vigil will go to the offices of Senators Kerry and Kennedy with 
the message of peace. If you want to be part of this, call CPPAX).

Wednesday, September 19, 6-7pm: Vigil for Peace, 7-9pm: Community-wide organizing 
meeting (place TBA, near Copley Sq).

Sunday, September 23, 12:30-2PM "STANDING AGAINST THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE" time for 
mourning, call for peace vigil/gathering copley square plaza.

Organized by representatives from: American Friends Service Committee, American-Arab 
Anti Discrimination Committee, Boston Coalition for Palestinian Rights, Cambridge 
Peace Commission, CPPAX, Boston Mobilization for Survival, Women's Action for New 
Directions, Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, World Federalists of 
New England

For latest information, call AFSC at 617-661-6130. Call 617-782-2313 to help.





>>To: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: Re: somewhat encouraging...
>>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>At 10:27 PM -0400 9/20/01, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>I suspect that only at MIT, and certain places in the east bay in California,
>>are where you'll find peace marches right now. I read a lot of mainstream
>>news, and haven't come across much coverage of them...
>>
>>-Declan
>
>The only other place I'm aware of is in Austin.
>
>Regards,  Matt-

The Pew research on willingness to give up liberty

[Matthew Gaylor]

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
 [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:40:28 -0400
Subject: The Pew research on willingness to give up liberty
From: David M Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Matt,

Re the "newsbyte" item you recently distributed, assuring readers that
the public still supports privacy rights at least for email and phone
conversations...

Following are passages from the survey write-up at the Pew Research
Center site . The survey
is about public attitudes in the wake of the terrorist attack. The quoted
passages pertain to attitudes toward civil liberties.

The newsbyte is somewhat misleading, because it mentions only those
instances where most of the public is least comfortable with loss of
liberty and greater surveillance of innocent people. It's a spin.

I guess it _is_ lucky that "only" 29% of Americans support internment
camps to round up LEGAL immigrants from hostile nations. And that 70%
don't want their phone calls or email to be monitored. On the other hand,
70% would have no problem with a national ID card that would have to be
presented on demand. 40% favor monitoring of their credit card purchases.
I would be happy to learn that this survey is fundamentally flawed. If it
isn't, we can only hope that second thoughts will prevail over time.

If more than half think of us think it's hunky-dory to give up some
freedom to combat terrorism, we're in trouble -- even if people are a
little bit queasier about this particular measure or that particular
measure. Especially when the public and the media and pols are all
singing the same song about the "new balance" we need.

Once the principle that people have certain inalienable rights is ceded,
there is not much ground left to stand on when they find that they do not
particularly like warrantless door-to-door searches or whatever. We all
know that even "temporary" war-time violations of liberty are often
retained after a war ends (as witness NYC rent controls).

And this is a war that by all indications will be fought indefinitely.
The liberty we lose now, we're not likely to get back any time soon.

David M. Brown

MOST SEE NEED TO SACRIFICE LIBERTIES

 Even more than was the case after the 1995 terrorist bombing
in Oklahoma City, Americans think it will be necessary to give up some
civil liberties in order to combat terrorism. A majority (55%) say the
average person will have to give up some freedoms in order to prevent
such attacks in the future.  The only dissent comes from respondents
under age 30, where just 40% think restricting civil liberties will be
necessary, while 50% disagree.

Sacrifice Civil Liberties to Curb Terrorism?

 AprilMarchApril Sept

 1995*1996  1997  2001

   %  %  %  %

Yes   49  30  29  55

No 43  65  62  35

DK/Ref. 859   10

  100100100100

*L.A. Times

 In the immediate aftermath of the Oklahoma City bombing,
roughly half of Americans (49%) felt that sacrificing some civil
liberties would be necessary, but this view lost support in the years
that followed. By March 1996, only 30% said they thought curbing civil
liberties was a necessary step to control terrorism, while nearly
two-in-three (65%) said it was not.

 Though most see a loss of civil liberties as a necessary
step, many have reservations about government action.  Nearly as many
worry that government action might excessively restrict the average
persons civil liberties (34%) as express concern that the government
will not go far enough in enacting strong new terrorism laws (39%).


No Draconian Measures

 Despite the expectation that it will be necessary to
sacrifice some liberties, the public does not give blanket approval to
all possible government responses to the terrorist threat, especially
when it involves personal privacy. Seven-in-ten favor a requirement that
citizens carry a national identity card at all times to show to a police
officer on request, a proposal that has particularly strong support from
women (75%).  But the public is more dubious when it comes to government
monitoring of telephone calls, e-mails and credit card purchases.

Measures to Curb Terrorism

FavorOppose  DK/Ref

   %%%

National ID cards   7026 4=100

CIA assassinations   672211=100

CIA criminal contacts672211=100

Monitor credit cards  4055 5=100

Internment camps  2957 

Conservative Forum: Threat is not FBI, cops need crypto-access

[Declan McCullagh]

- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -

From: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: FC: Conservative Forum: Threat is not FBI, cops need crypto-access
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:43:50 -0400
X-URL: Politech is at http://www.politechbot.com/

[Norm works on privacy topics for Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas), a libertarian- 
leaning kind of fellow. --DBM]

***

From: "Singleton, Norman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:26:44 -0400

Friends, even some alleged "conservatives" are eagerly anticipating 
sacrificing liberty for the illusion of security [...]

http://www.conservativereform.org/bullmoose/

Wednesday, September 19, 2001 (3:13 PM ET)

Bedfellows. The Moose is heartened by the national show of unity
against terrorism. But, beware of strange bedfellows.

The alliance of right and left wing flotsam and jetsam is nothing new
on the foreign policy front. We witnessed it during the Kosovo
conflict when noted hawks such as Lott and DeLay joined the "peace
now" crowd. With a direct attack on the American homeland, dissident
voices are muted but have not entirely disappeared.

The most bizarre example comes from Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson
who suggested that the attack was God's wrath against a nation that
has sinned. This was a new theocratic right variant on the "Blame
American First" theme that used to be the purview of the left. As was
eloquently stated during the 2000 Republican primaries, Robertson and
Falwell are truly the "agents of intolerance."

Meanwhile, a few timid left voices are suggesting that we must look
for "root causes" for the terrorist behavior. However, the American
people are not in a receptive audience for the root cause crowd.

A more pernicious development is an emerging right-left alliance
against the ability of law enforcement to conduct domestic
surveillance of terrorists.

According to the Washington Post, groups ranging from the ACLU to the
Free Congress Foundation and the Gun Owners of America are uniting to
"declare their concerns that increased surveillance initiatives would
invade privacy." One conservative group called the Coalition for
Constitutional Liberties declared that, "our most basic and
fundamental freedoms are under attack unlike any time since the
Revolutionary Era."

The Moose would find this all so amusing if it weren't so sad. Some on
the right have long had the constitutional outlook of the ACLU on
issues ranging from soft money to the drug war.

Yes, there is a tremendous threat to our security, but it isn't coming
from the FBI! The unholy alliance of the right and the left is not
focused on stopping terrorists who threaten our very lives, but rather
on restraining law enforcement which seeks to protect our safety.
Privacy is fine, but at a time such as this, we must guard our
security first. This right-left coalition is just another variant on
the discredited liberal gang from the 60's which sought to tie the
hands of the police against criminals.

Make no mistake, there is a terrorist conspiracy operating within the
borders of the United States. According to testimony from a federal
official during congressional hearings last year, "As we know, Middle
East terrorist groups - such as Hezbollah, Hamas, and Osama bin
Laden's organization - are using computerized files, email and
encryption to support their organizations."

Some so-called conservatives have long opposed allowing law
enforcement to have encryption-busting powers. Evidently, the largesse
of the computer industry and other special interests can be very
influential. The Moose, however, makes no apologies for desiring that
the FBI has every tool available to thwart the terrorist plans. Give
Attorney General Ashcroft all he requests, and more.

If this is war, it is time for both the left and the right to choose
sides.

[...]




-
POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list
You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice.
Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/
To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
-


- End forwarded message -

your client - goes to competitors? 1121e

[margo2111299]

 
 Do you need new leads for your business?
 Do you need increased Internet Exposure?
 
 Thousands join the Internet daily..and there are MILLIONS!
 Have you reached the THOUSANDS of NEW internet users?
 
  Search Engines: work IF you're in the TOP 20 among MILLIONS































































































  Classifieds:work IF your ad is near the top among THOUSANDS
  Banner A

IRS, Deceit, Rats, Narcs

[John Young]

Ashcroft's anti-terrorism bill proposes allowing IRS data
to be shared with law enforcement and intelligence agencies.
As if that would be a new.

The bill would also lift the stay of US attorneys taking 
part in illegal undercover work. As if that was new.

Bush has asked citizens to inform on their neighbors,
as if that was new.

Narcs in the militia have called for defense of the 
homeland while the military is engaged elsewhere.

Recall the IRS manual for undercover operations which
states these strategems are already in use.

Re: somewhat encouraging...

[Declan McCullagh]

On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 09:00:33AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> CNN's 'scrolling text' on The Tube last night mentioned "hundreds of campuses" but 
>wasn't more specific.  The mainstream news won't have it till some shit hits the fan, 
>but there's plenty if you dig just a bit.

Washington Post ran an article near the front of the A section yesterday.
Perhaps that's not mainstream?

-Declan

PGP author under fire for terrorist use of crypto

[Matthew Gaylor]

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:57:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Craig Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Matthew Gaylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: PGP author under fire for terrorist use of crypto

Matt:

Don't know if this is of interest or not.  It appears that Phil Zimmermann
is taking heat directly over the whole crypto - terrorist thing.

Details at:



Regards

-- 
Craig...
--
"I wonder if other dogs think poodles are members of a weird
religious cult." --Rita Rudner

**
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**

Re: Government credentials and picture IDs

[Meyer Wolfsheim]

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote:

> It's too bad so many people are so confused about what a "Web of Trust"
> is.
>
> Do I need a "positive picture ID" of Lucky Green to communicate with him
> securely? Black Unicorn? Pr0duct Cypher? Eric Hughes? Attila the Hun?
>
> The notion that a particular credential with a picture on it means
> anything, or should be given weight, is one of the most dangerous ideas
> there is. For the obvious reasons.
>
> As a hint, the people you _don't_ want to trust are a helluva lot more
> likely to have nice, neat picture IDs than people like Lucky Green are.
>
> --Tim May (not my true name)

To elaborate a little,

In the PGP-style "Web of Trust", each user is effectively his own
Certificate Authority. Likewise, each user has his own form of CPS. Some
users will indiscriminately sign other people's keys. Some users will
require "government issued ID". Some users will require that they
personally know another person for some set amount of time before signing
his key.

By signing a key, you are, in effect, asserting to the world a belief in
the identity of the key holder. One can communicate securely with other
users even if he never signs another person's key. Signing is entirely
optional -- a service, so to speak, to the other members of one's
community.  (Indeed, there are more than a few cypherpunks who do not sign
keys at all, because of the information it reveals about their
associations with others.)

Those of us who know better would not rely on a simple picture ID to prove
identity. Likewise, we would not put much faith in certifications made by
someone who used that criteria for verification. But PGP users are free to
use whatever means they like in "verifying" identities.

The problem I see in "V Alex Brennen's" announcement is that he is
requiring photo-ID for a key signing party. The *only* function a key
signing party serves is to facilitate the pairing of keys (by their
fingerprints) with bodies (either individuals, or organizations
represented by the proper individuals). The key signing party organizer's
responsibility ends there. He should not be dictating key signing policy
to the end users.

Picture IDs are just one of many methods of determining identity, and as
Tim points out, a poor one, and useless for pseudonyms.

In the case of a conference or other gathering of strangers where a large
key signing party is planned, it is my recommendation that, rather than
each individual signing keys of other conference attendees (unless there
is an existing trust relationship between individual attendees), the
conference organizers create a conference signing key with which to sign
attendees' keys. This provides information about the key (it was presented
at such-and-such a conference by a person calling himself so-and-so) and
also clearly defines the limits of this information. Users can later take
that into account when evaluating whether or not to "trust" the signed key.

(Many of us will find this certification useless, and others will find it
undesirable for the information it leaks about us. Which is why key
signings are voluntary.)


-MW-

Re: Government credentials and picture IDs

[Meyer Wolfsheim]

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote:

> It's too bad so many people are so confused about what a "Web of Trust"
> is.
>
> Do I need a "positive picture ID" of Lucky Green to communicate with him
> securely? Black Unicorn? Pr0duct Cypher? Eric Hughes? Attila the Hun?
>
> The notion that a particular credential with a picture on it means
> anything, or should be given weight, is one of the most dangerous ideas
> there is. For the obvious reasons.
>
> As a hint, the people you _don't_ want to trust are a helluva lot more
> likely to have nice, neat picture IDs than people like Lucky Green are.
>
> --Tim May (not my true name)

To elaborate a little,

In the PGP-style "Web of Trust", each user is effectively his own
Certificate Authority. Likewise, each user has his own form of CPS. Some
users will indiscriminately sign other people's keys. Some users will
require "government issued ID". Some users will require that they
personally know another person for some set amount of time before signing
his key.

By signing a key, you are, in effect, asserting to the world a belief in
the identity of the key holder. One can communicate securely with other
users even if he never signs another person's key. Signing is entirely
optional -- a service, so to speak, to the other members of one's
community.  (Indeed, there are more than a few cypherpunks who do not sign
keys at all, because of the information it reveals about their
associations with others.)

Those of us who know better would not rely on a simple picture ID to prove
identity. Likewise, we would not put much faith in certifications made by
someone who used that criteria for verification. But PGP users are free to
use whatever means they like in "verifying" identities.

The problem I see in "V Alex Brennen's" announcement is that he is
requiring photo-ID for a key signing party. The *only* function a key
signing party serves is to facilitate the pairing of keys (by their
fingerprints) with bodies (either individuals, or organizations
represented by the proper individuals). The key signing party organizer's
responsibility ends there. He should not be dictating key signing policy
to the end users.

Picture IDs are just one of many methods of determining identity, and as
Tim points out, a poor one, and useless for pseudonyms.

In the case of a conference or other gathering of strangers where a large
key signing party is planned, it is my recommendation that, rather than
each individual signing keys of other conference attendees (unless there
is an existing trust relationship between individual attendees), the
conference organizers create a conference signing key with which to sign
attendees' keys. This provides information about the key (it was presented
at such-and-such a conference by a person calling himself so-and-so) and
also clearly defines the limits of this information. Users can later take
that into account when evaluating whether or not to "trust" the signed key.

(Many of us will find this certification useless, and others will find it
undesirable for the information it leaks about us. Which is why key
signings are voluntary.)


-MW-