date:20011024


On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 09:23 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:

> Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> When you have 99-1 votes in the Senate
>> (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02651.html), can anyone seriously say
>> that either the Democrats or Republicans can be trusted to preserve
>> our privacy and follow the demands of the Constitution?
>
> No. Nor have the mass of national politicians been trustworthy since FDR
> or before.
>
> It might be good that Congress is likely to pass a Draconian
> anti-terrorism law. The nibbling away at civil rights has gone generally
> without effective opposition. About the only hope for the retention of
> our rights is a massive chunk bitten off at once, while there are still
> enough armed Americans to put politicians in fear of their lives. I'm
> not actually hoping for an armed uprising, but the fear of one is
> clearly the only thing which will bring Congress, the federal courts,
> and the President to heel.

Indeed. The frog has been adjusting to the heating water rather too 
well. It's time to flash cook the frog.

I'm watching a "Nightline" report on the growing anger over how the 
ubermensch elite in Congress were fawned over and given Cipro while the 
untermensch lumpenproletariat postal workers were told "Don't worry, be 
happy!"

Now, with no Congressvarmints sick, but with two mail sorters having 
gone postal to the max, with dozens of others sick or diagnosed with 
inhalation anthrax, the anger is building.

--Tim May
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
--Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago

Re: House chairman doesn't want "parochial" issues to stop wiretap bill

On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 09:44 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Parochial issues like privacy, maybe?
>

"Frankly, even before 9/11 I thought privacy was, like, rilly, rilly 
scary and all! It scares me to think about what people are doing under 
the cloak of "privacy." So, like, I'm happy that our government is 
quickly passing laws taking back all those "privacy" things in that 
Constitution thing. Like, there are no civil liberties advocates in 
foxholes. -- Cathy Rilly Rilly Young, "Irrational Magazine"

--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.

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Re: House chairman doesn't want "parochial" issues to stop wiretap bill


on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:44:48AM -0400, Declan McCullagh ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
wrote:
> Parochial issues like privacy, maybe?
>
> -Declan
>
> ---
>
> News Advisory
> For immediate
> release   Contact:
> Jeff Lungren
> October 24,
> 2001
> 202-225-2492
> House Passes Anti-terrorism Legislation
> Sensenbenner Urges Senate Action Today
> WASHINGTON, D.C. - The House today passed anti-terrorism legislation by a
> 357-66 margin.  H.R. 3162, introduced by House Judiciary Committee Chairman
> F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr. (R-Wis.), is expected to be considered by the
> Senate today or tomorrow and then sent to President Bush for his signature.
> "Today, the House came together in a bipartisan manner to pass landmark
> anti-terrorism legislation which provides federal law enforcement and
> intelligence agencies the tools they need to combat the scourges of
> international and domestic terrorism.  Our country remains vulnerable to
> terrorism and our President needs this bill to fight the clear and present
> danger posed by Al Queda and other terrorist organizations," said Chairman
> Sensenbrenner.
> "I have heard that certain Senators have placed holds on this
> anti-terrorism bill to press their own parochial issues.  This is the time
> to dispense with business as usual.  It is time for leadership; I urge the
> Senate to pass this legislation today."

So, who're the Senate holdouts?  90+ votes means a filibuster's
impossible under cloture rules, no?

--
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Re: Why Plan-9?

on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:53:35PM -0500, Jim Choate ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> This entire view misses the(!) one most important component of Unix's (and
> Linux's) success, they were first.

Not hardly.

I wasn't keeping notes when K&R were designing their gaming platform,
but history seems to recall OS/360, Multics, TICO, ITS, VMS.  A bit of
quick Googling suggests the PDP-7 had its own native operating system
(the PDP-11 certainly did), certainly more than what a couple of guys
hanging around a broom closet could hammer out in a few days.

Throughout the 1970s and 80s, Ken Olsen was selling VAXs running VMS and
complaining bitterly about snake oil (I guess there's a bunch of snakes
out there).  However, to quote someone's response to Tim May in this
list recently, I'm just one of the dilettants posting here out of
ignorance for some free research on the part of the rest of you.
Someone who was around at the time is going to have a better answer than
me. 

When Linus started Linux, he was bootstrapping with Minix, and trying to
get around its limitations.  For PC Unix, there was alread Xenix and one
or more of the very forgettably named SCO products (not Xenix).  The
Jolitzesi were wresting BSD from Berkeley.  FSF had been working on the
HURD since 1983 (originally as TRIX), in fits and starts.  By the time
Larry McVoy wrote "The Sourceware Operating System Proposal" in 1993, it
still wasn't clear whether or not FreeBSD or Linux was the cart to hitch
the horse to.

http://www.redhat.com/knowledgebase/otherwhitepapers/whitepaper_freeunix.html

The ultimate success of Linux doesn't have a single factor -- it meets
most of the marks set in the exerpt I posted from K&P, I'd argue that
licensing played a role, as did the fact it wasn't encumbered by the
AT&T/UCB lawsuits, and most people give Linus himself strong credits for
his project management skills and personality.  Topics covered
extensively elsewhere.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

 PGP signature

First, brand all the children

2001-10-24 Thread Anonymous User


An armed uprising won't transpire, but a time will come
when people will run away from cities.

Even if you disagree with prophecy, I very much doubt that you truly
believe that there is men and women in great numbers that will fight.
After spending 26 years on this planet, it will not be a surprise to
me
when my neighbors, family & friends are first in line to 
the inoculation centers.
Why?
Because it will be the simpliest of things.

"And that no man might buy or sell, except he that had the mark"

- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Furlong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: First, brand all the children


> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > When you have 99-1 votes in the Senate
> > (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02651.html), can anyone seriously
> > say that either the Democrats or Republicans can be trusted to
> > preserve our privacy and follow the demands of the Constitution?
> 
> No. Nor have the mass of national politicians been trustworthy
> since FDR or before.
> 
> It might be good that Congress is likely to pass a Draconian
> anti-terrorism law. The nibbling away at civil rights has gone
> generally without effective opposition. About the only hope for the
> retention of our rights is a massive chunk bitten off at once,
> while there are still enough armed Americans to put politicians in
> fear of their lives. I'm not actually hoping for an armed uprising,
> but the fear of one is
> clearly the only thing which will bring Congress, the federal
> courts, and the President to heel.
> 
> -- 
> Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
>   617-670-3793
> 
> "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
> while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato

Re: FINALLY! we can buy Staria


> I happened to hear from Lee Caplin of Starium today. They've
> apparently (I'm looking at Lee's email message while typing this,
> but I don't wish to speak for them) abandoned plans to sell the
> bump-in-a-wire device. Now they're thinking of marketing a small
> RJ11'd cryptophone an executive would carry around. Also, Lee says
> Starium has filed for patents on a desk phone, answering machine and
> conference phone.

I understand their original reasons for the bump-in-the-wire model,
but I'm glad to hear they are making a cryptophone, because I don't
really want to have some other device there.  I want it integrated.
I'll wait to see what they come out with.  Another thing that would be
even more cool would be a cordless phone.  I will certainly buy these
things when they are shipping them, if they are somewhere in the $1000
range.

Clarence Parker enjoyed the perks of his prison guard job


FORMER INS GUARD AT FEDERAL DETENTION FACILITY
PLEADS GUILTY TO SEXUAL ACT WITH FEMALE DETAINEE MIAMI, FL. --
The Public Integrity Section of the Justice Department announced today that 
Clarence Parker, a former guard at the Krome Service Processing Center 
(Krome) in Miami, Florida, pled guilty today to knowingly engaging in, and 
attempting to engage in a sexual act with a female detainee at Krome in 
October 2000.  "As soon as we learned of the possible actions of this 
individual, we immediately removed him from Krome," said INS Acting 
District Director John M. Bulger. "The investigation went forward with our 
full support.  Our commitment to removing and prosecuting anyone who 
commits these types of acts is stronger than ever." For the past three 
years, Parker was a contract employee with the Immigration and 
Naturalization Service at Krome.  Parker was assigned to the attorney 
visiting area where he monitored the detainees who were waiting to visit 
with their attorneys.  As a result of the investigation, Parker was 
suspended in June 2001. Parker's plea was accepted by the Honorable 
Federico A. Moreno, United States District Judge for the Southern District 
of Florida.  His sentencing for the conviction is scheduled for
December 20, 2001.  This matter is being handled by Trial Attorney Scott 
Dahl of the Public Integrity Section.  The investigation is being conducted 
by Department's Office of Inspector General in Ft. Lauderdale and by the 
Federal Bureau of Investigation's Miami Office.  ### 01-551

House chairman doesn't want "parochial" issues to stop wiretap bill


Parochial issues like privacy, maybe?

-Declan

---

News Advisory
For immediate 
release   Contact: 
Jeff Lungren
October 24, 
2001 
202-225-2492
House Passes Anti-terrorism Legislation
Sensenbenner Urges Senate Action Today
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The House today passed anti-terrorism legislation by a 
357-66 margin.  H.R. 3162, introduced by House Judiciary Committee Chairman 
F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr. (R-Wis.), is expected to be considered by the 
Senate today or tomorrow and then sent to President Bush for his signature.
"Today, the House came together in a bipartisan manner to pass landmark 
anti-terrorism legislation which provides federal law enforcement and 
intelligence agencies the tools they need to combat the scourges of 
international and domestic terrorism.  Our country remains vulnerable to 
terrorism and our President needs this bill to fight the clear and present 
danger posed by Al Queda and other terrorist organizations," said Chairman 
Sensenbrenner.
"I have heard that certain Senators have placed holds on this 
anti-terrorism bill to press their own parochial issues.  This is the time 
to dispense with business as usual.  It is time for leadership; I urge the 
Senate to pass this legislation today."

Re: FINALLY! we can buy Staria


Did you read the page carefully? See:

NOW TAKING PRE-ORDERS FOR DELIVERY IN DECEMBER 2001/JANUARY 2002
Very Limited Quantity Available

That said, I'm surprised to see the units advertised. As I said in
another message, Starium's chairman (I think that's his current title)
indicated to me today they've switched directions.

-Declan


On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:15:31PM -0700, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > Right. I have a pair of Starium betas. They work. I'd recommend them.
> >
> > But the problem is that the purchaseable product doesn't exist. I went
> > down to Carmel a few months ago and checked out the company. I love
> > the ideas and the tech, but I wouldn't expect to see a product in the
> > very near future.
> 
> What's this then?
> 
> http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm
> 
> 
> -MW-

Re: FINALLY! we can buy Staria


On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Right. I have a pair of Starium betas. They work. I'd recommend them.
>
> But the problem is that the purchaseable product doesn't exist. I went
> down to Carmel a few months ago and checked out the company. I love
> the ideas and the tech, but I wouldn't expect to see a product in the
> very near future.

What's this then?

http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm


-MW-

Re: First, brand all the children

Declan McCullagh wrote:

> When you have 99-1 votes in the Senate
> (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02651.html), can anyone seriously say
> that either the Democrats or Republicans can be trusted to preserve
> our privacy and follow the demands of the Constitution?

No. Nor have the mass of national politicians been trustworthy since FDR
or before.

It might be good that Congress is likely to pass a Draconian
anti-terrorism law. The nibbling away at civil rights has gone generally
without effective opposition. About the only hope for the retention of
our rights is a massive chunk bitten off at once, while there are still
enough armed Americans to put politicians in fear of their lives. I'm
not actually hoping for an armed uprising, but the fear of one is
clearly the only thing which will bring Congress, the federal courts,
and the President to heel.

-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato

Re: Market Competition for Security Measures

> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, somebody wrote:
> 
> >Federalizing or socializing the costs of security is like federalizing
> >or socializing flood insurance: it takes the efficiencies of the market
> >away and creates distortions.

It has two advantages over a strict free market model however. The fist
is the market is larger with respect to ability to cover damages because
it spreads the cost out over a larger group. This has two effects. First
it lowers the average cost per user and second during critical
emergencies you can raise larger sums of capital by increasing the
average payout. Especially damages that accrue all at once outside of
'normal' statistical expectations. A sequence of man made and natural
disasters would be one example. The flip side is to realize that this
works for transient spikes only. Otherwise it's simply robbing Peter to
pay Paul (ie Communism).

The second aspect is that the market players are likely to be more stable
from a total lifetime perspective. In some cases this accrues from the
stability of the government, in others this economic breadth stabalizes
the government.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Money transmitting businesses (Was: "A champion of liberty speaks about privacy, cash smuggling")

The bill has been in flux, and nobody has had time to read it in detail.
You can scroll through it yerself:
http://www.politechbot.com/docs/usa.act.final.102401.html

  ``(b) Domestic Coin and Currency Transactions Involving
 Nonfinancial Trades or Businesses.--No person shall, for the
 purpose of evading the report requirements of section 5333 or
 any regulation prescribed under such section--
   ``(1) cause or attempt to cause a nonfinancial trade or
 business to fail to file a report required under section 5333
 or any regulation prescribed under such section; [...]
  ``(3) structure or assist in structuring, or attempt to
 structure or assist in structuring, any transaction with 1 or
 more nonfinancial trades or businesses.'. [...]
 (1) In general.--Whoever, with the intent to evade a
 currency reporting requirement under section 5316, knowingly
 conceals more than $10,000 in currency or other monetary
 instruments on the person of such individual or in any
 conveyance, article of luggage, merchandise, or other
 con transport or transfer such currency or monetary instruments
 from a place within the United States to a place outside of
 the United States, or from a place outside the United States
 to a place within the United States, shall be guilty of a
 currency smuggling offense and subject to punishment pursuant
 to subsection (b).

See also:

 ``(a) Whoever knowingly conducts, controls, manages,
 supervises, directs, or owns all or part of an unlicensed
 money transmitting business, shall be fined in accordance
 with this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
   ``(b) As used in this section--
   ``(1) the term `unlicensed money transmitting business'
 means a money transmitting business which affects interstate
 or foreign commerce in any manner or degree and--
   ``(A) is operated without an appropriate money transmitting
 license in a State where such operation is punishable as a
 misdemeanor or a felony under State law, whether or not the
 defendant knew that the operation was required to be licensed
 or that the operation was so punishable;

I wonder how this would affect various alternative currency systems:

``(2) the term `money transmitting' includes transferring
 funds on behalf of the public by any and all means including
 but not limited to transfers within this country or to
 locations abroad by wire, check, draft, facsimile, or
 courier; and

-Declan

On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 07:48:03PM -0700, John Kozubik wrote:
> >The bill is not perfect. I am sorry that, for example, we excluded
> > making it a crime to smuggle over $10,000 interstate. We included it
> > for overseas, but it was not included for interstate. Nevertheless,
> > this is an excellent bill.
> 
> Can someone clarify the definition, in this context, of "smuggling" ?  
> Does this mean that $10,000 in cash can no longer be taken out of the
> country, or does it mean that it can no longer be taken out of the country
> in a secretive manner ?
> 
> For as long as I have been traveling internationally, I have been required
> to declare all cash amounts larger than $10,000.  Does this mean that
> previously it was not a crime to not make such a declaration, and now it
> is ?
> 
> -
> John Kozubik - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.kozubik.com

Re: First, brand all the children

K-S has the right of it. The only drama left before the Senate votes
on the "anti-terrorism" wiretap bill Thursday is whether the final vote
on this ever-growing, 400KB bill will be 99-1 (Feingold) or 100-1. 

Two weeks ago, the House approved (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02654.html)
the bill by a 339 by 79 vote with a five-year expiration date.

Then the Senate decided to get persnickety and demanded that all these
anti-financial privacy "money laundering" sections must be added, and
insisted that the expiration date be shortened, and so on.

The doughty defenders of liberty in the House reponded by approving the
rewritten, expanded bill today by -- a 357 to 66 vote.
(http://clerkweb.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2001&rollnumber=398)

So making the bill more Draconian, onerous, and nasty convinced
precisely 13 *more* 'critters to vote for the revised version. Right.

With the exception of folks like Ron Paul (who, I'm pleased to say,
voted nay), there seems to be little hope left for our legislative
system.  When you have 99-1 votes in the Senate
(http://www.politechbot.com/p-02651.html), can anyone seriously say
that either the Democrats or Republicans can be trusted to preserve
our privacy and follow the demands of the Constitution?

-Declan

On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 04:05:04PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Brock,
> 
> You the problem in the cross hairs.  But what's to be done when your elected 
>representative and fellow citizens are either too scared or don't care to discuss a 
>plain reading of the constitution?  These ugly measures may cause some of us to 
>assume that maybe the American revolution isn't over and that the ghost of George III 
>and his Tories now reside in D.C.  Thank God so many of us own firearms and are 
>therefore citizens and not merely subjects.
> 
> ---
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/646793.asp
> 
> 
> First, brand all the children
> 
> 
> Cyber-liberties swept away by tidal wave of security concerns
> 
> 
> OPINION
> By Brock N. Meeks
> MSNBC
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON, Oct. 24 - Anthrax, Afghanistan, al-Qaida, Ashcroft and
> anti-terrorism legislation. We aren't even through the first letter of the
> geopolitical alphabet before jumping all the way to "S" as in "screwed" as
> in what's happening to civil liberties in the online world.

Re: FINALLY! we can buy Staria

On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 01:31:34AM -, Dr. Evil wrote:
> Right, so Starium is price-competitive, easier to use, and possibly
> more secure.  Oh, and they will sell to anyone who has money, unlike
> the STU sellers, I assume.

Right. I have a pair of Starium betas. They work. I'd recommend them.

But the problem is that the purchaseable product doesn't exist. I went
down to Carmel a few months ago and checked out the company. I love
the ideas and the tech, but I wouldn't expect to see a product in the
very near future.

-Declan

Re: FINALLY! we can buy Staria


I happened to hear from Lee Caplin of Starium today. They've
apparently (I'm looking at Lee's email message while typing this, but
I don't wish to speak for them) abandoned plans to sell the
bump-in-a-wire device. Now they're thinking of marketing a small
RJ11'd cryptophone an executive would carry around. Also, Lee says
Starium has filed for patents on a desk phone, answering machine and
conference phone.

-Declan



On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 03:06:29AM -, Dr. Evil wrote:
> (is that the correct plural of Starium?)
> 
> http://www.tactronix.com/s100.htm
> 
> NOW TAKING PRE-ORDERS FOR DELIVERY IN DECEMBER 2001/JANUARY 2002
> 
> Very Limited Quantity Available
> 
> A 50% Deposit Will Reserve Your Units Today!!
> 
> 1-10 Units  $995 USD Each
> 
> 11-20 Units $936 USD Each
> 
> 21-50 Units $884 USD Each
> 
> 51 Units+ Call For Price
> 
> What do people here think of this?  My initial thoughts are:
> 
> Pros:
> 
> 1. Voice encryption is great.  It's the Last Great Encryption Taboo
>(the other is file encryption, but that's not nearly as taboo as
>voice).  I'm glad to see something on the market which addresses
>this.  Obviously, all traffic, including saying hi to grandma,
>should be encrypted.
> 
> 2. The unit looks very easy to use.  I could travel anywhere in the
>world with it (well, anywhere that it's legal) and plug it in and
>press one button and it works.  That's great.
> 
> Cons:
> 
> 1. I would like to see an open source reference software
>implementation, or some way to verify that there are no "naughty
>bits" in this thing.  I know, open source isn't much of a business
>model, but with encryption products, it seems almost essential.
> 
> 2. It's expensive.  It costs more than a PC.  However, $2k for two
>units is small compared to the value of data it could be securing,
>so for many users, the price will be fine.
> 
> 3. A minor nitpick: It uses 3DES.  What's wrong with AES?
> 
> I think I would like to buy some of them, but I can't decide if I want
> to be an early adopter, or wait for cheaper and better versions to
> come out.

Re: Retribution not enough

2001-10-24 Thread jamesd

--
> David Honig wrote:
>
> > No one forces a farmer to the city to look for an industrial job.

On 22 Oct 2001, at 12:21, Ken Brown wrote:
> In general, no. But it happens now and again.  Governments 
certainly did
> in (say) the old Soviet Union

I do not think so.

Lenin surrounded the cities to keep people and food from going in 
and out.   This was the first step in a program to reintroduce 
serfdom, binding the peasant to the land.

Lenin, and later Stalin, were waging war on the countryside to 
extort food without supplying goods.  This produced a flight from 
the countryside, that they immediately met with terror.

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 DNPY/HlstuOZEMVRUtY8Fzx8ICjFn2nqiYfet8LB
 4yqj5vJH5lSGh0fTn9MhNe7LOs+Lq9d6wLTmJ8/Ve

Spreading the dossier on Mitch Shoemaker, 16-year-old felon

On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 02:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, (na) mshoe wrote:

I first want you to know I understand what you do but

Great! Could you please explain it to *US* then? I [seriously] doubt
that most of us know what it is we do here!

I need to ask you to please remove the post from
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2001.05.07-2001.05.13/msg00330.html

Information wants to be Free, Mitch. Kinda sucks to be you, doesn't it?

Not only cannot, and will not, Mitch Shoemaker's post not be removed, but search engines around the world find his moneymaking scheme every time someone types in "Mitch Shoemaker." Up pops up his post, plus his then-mailing address:

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :

REPORT#1 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the
Internet"

ORDER REPORT#1 FROM::

Mitch Shoemaker

82 north iron st.

Bloomsburg pa,17815

I know I made a mistake and I am sorry for
it. I just want to put this mistake beind me and

It's good you can learn from your mistakes: it shows you are a little
higher on the food chain than most of the folks you will run into out
there. Kudos.

getting my family's address off the internet would be
a big help. Please consider removing the postings.
Thank You, Mitch

Knowing your family's home address is necessary so that future employers, colleges, etc., can reject you.

Also, some people may want to visit your house to get their money back. Or to get revenge.

Looks like you and your family may want to move, and maybe you need a name change.

--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"

Key Hypotheses (incl. Schelling Points)


http://www.tfriend.com/hypothesis.html
-- 

 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: A champion of liberty speaks about privacy, cash smuggling

2001-10-24 Thread John Kozubik


>The bill is not perfect. I am sorry that, for example, we excluded
> making it a crime to smuggle over $10,000 interstate. We included it
> for overseas, but it was not included for interstate. Nevertheless,
> this is an excellent bill.

Can someone clarify the definition, in this context, of "smuggling" ?  
Does this mean that $10,000 in cash can no longer be taken out of the
country, or does it mean that it can no longer be taken out of the country
in a secretive manner ?

For as long as I have been traveling internationally, I have been required
to declare all cash amounts larger than $10,000.  Does this mean that
previously it was not a crime to not make such a declaration, and now it
is ?

-
John Kozubik - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.kozubik.com

Re: FINALLY! we can buy Staria


>> > I don't understand why one would pay $1000 for a Starium device when
>> > comparable devices are available in the market place for less than half

According to some news I encountered, Microsoft's latest 'consumer'
OS fnord "XP" includes an audio/visual live 'chat' app.

Ignoring for the moment its closed nature, and the fact that you
can't be secure if your OS isn't, it would be a fantastic
project to add crypto to that app, *merely* on the basis of its
widespread Joe Sixpack deployment.  I have not calculated the
MIPS requirements, but since the chat app runs (supposedly acceptably)
at 56Kbaud one imagines there might be cycles to spare.  Or that
some users will endure the framerate drop if not.

dh

stamps.com: buh-bye anonymous post-mail, hello smart "crypto postage."

2001-10-24 Thread Xeni Jardin


Noted without comment: this stamps.com press release hit the wires earlier
today...
--XJ

Stamps.com Technology Helps Improve Mail Security


Internal Task Force to Focus on Further Utilization of Internet Postage Security

SANTA MONICA, Calif. - October 24, 2001 - Stamps.comTM (Nasdaq: STMP).
Stamps.com announced today that it has appointed an internal task force to
explore new applications that further harness and utilize the security inherent
in its Internet Postage solution. Traditional stamped mail offers limited
security information. Stamps.com's Internet Postage service, on the other hand,
can provide extensive information regarding the sender's identity, point of
origination and the path taken through the mail system. Stamps.com intends to
develop new features to further improve mail security for its customers.

Stamps.com's Internet Postage solution utilizes Information Based Indicia, or
cryptographic two-dimensional barcodes, as a replacement for traditional
postage. This "intelligent" postage, which can be printed using standard PC
printers, contains important mail processing information that can provide
valuable assistance to authorities investigating inappropriate postal
activities.

"Stamps.com's secure technology provides mail recipients greater peace of mind,"
said Stamps.com CEO Ken McBride. "Each piece of mail sent using Stamps.com is
unique and traceable by authorities to its sender, thus serving as a deterrent
to those intent on using the postal system to do harm. Mail sent using the
Stamps.com service is also associated with an individual credit card or checking
account, which can further reduce the opportunity for abuse."

A trusted, efficient, and secure mail system has always been a cornerstone of
the American economy. Enhanced adoption of advanced technologies, such as
Stamps.com's Internet Postage service, can promote a higher level of security
within the mail system. Stamps.com continues to work with postal authorities to
encourage greater usage of Internet Postage.

"With a two-dimensional barcode on the envelope or package, recipients can feel
more assured today that the mail is traceable and secure. For the sender, a more
secure and professional looking mail piece will encourage the intended recipient
to open the package or envelope," said McBride.

About Stamps.com
Stamps.com (Nasdaq: STMP) is the leading provider of Internet-based postage
services. Its flagship product, Stamps.com Internet Postaged, enables customers
to print U.S. Postal Service-approved postage via a computer and Internet
connection.<...>


###

Re: Why Plan-9?



This entire view misses the(!) one most important component of Unix's (and
Linux's) success, they were first.

There was NO credible competition. The same thing can be said for Apache
and BIND and many other apps. It isn't that they were the best, they were
simply the first - and get to reap market inertia as a result.

However, and it's a doozy, this won't last. As the Open Source market
expands and takes over pretty much completely you'll see this dominance
begin to decrease.

Why? 

Because of the component nature of the software.

On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

[Long standard history of Unix deleted]


 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

The coming "open monopoly" in software - Tech News - CNET.com


http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1275-210-7632187-1.html?tag=bt_bh
-- 

 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Doh!



Make "Green River Anthology" into "Spoon River Anthology", it'll make more
sense.


 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: FINALLY! we can buy Staria


> We probably need to define the product category we're discussing. I was
> listing devices which prevent casual interception, and which Joe Average
> might conceivably buy. The Starium is obviously more robust than that,
> and consequently more expensive.

Right, exactly.  When Starium was first announced, people were excited
because it sounded like we were going to get industrial-strength stuff
at consumer prices.  That isn't reality, and now they are going to
sell industrial-strength stuff at industrial prices.  There's no way a
complicated all-digital public key crypto device can compete on price
with made-in-China analog scramblers, which are basically toys.  That
is not a smart fight to pick because the consumer who is just playing
around doesn't know the difference under the hood.  I'm glad they did
the smart thing on this.

> You asked in a previous message about the market size. For casual stuff,
> tens or hundreds of thousands in the US, if the device is in the $100
> range. For the serious stuff, I think you nailed the market pretty well.
> One or two orders of magnitude less, if the device is in the $1000
> range. Those numbers both assume no government interference, of course.

Sounds reasonable to me.  I hope they do well, but I'm not giving them
money until the devices are actually shipping.  I think they do have a
good chance because law enforcement and private security demand for
these things might be pretty good these days.

Re: Is there a subway in DC?

2001-10-24 Thread Bill Stewart

The DC Metro is one of the nicer subways systems in the country.
And for both NYC and DC, the subway definitely beats most other
transportation methods - neither city could support even the
parking needs for their residents or workers if everyone drove,
and busses aren't managed in a way that they could replace subways,
particularly because even with many more of them,
they'd be stuck in traffic that the subways can avoid.

Besides, especially in NYC, there are so many interesting people
that you encounter on the subways :-)

At 02:23 PM 10/23/2001 -0700, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:
>And why are NYC prison^H^H^H^H^H^Hinhabitants
>still taking subways?
>
>http://books.nap.edu/books/0309068495/html/223.html#pagetop

Re: FINALLY! we can buy Staria

"Dr. Evil" wrote:
> So, I checked all the URLs you gave me, and none of them, except the
> STU, use real encryption, and the STUs are either not available, or
> they are backdoored.
> 
> Starium is competing with STUs.
...
> > And others in the over-US$1000 range.
> 
> Right, so Starium is price-competitive, easier to use, and possibly
> more secure.  Oh, and they will sell to anyone who has money, unlike
> the STU sellers, I assume.
> 
> I think their initial market are customers such as law enforcement,
> criminal defense lawyers, and executives who might compare this with a
> STU, and for whom $1000 vs $100 is no big deal. ...

We probably need to define the product category we're discussing. I was
listing devices which prevent casual interception, and which Joe Average
might conceivably buy. The Starium is obviously more robust than that,
and consequently more expensive.

You asked in a previous message about the market size. For casual stuff,
tens or hundreds of thousands in the US, if the device is in the $100
range. For the serious stuff, I think you nailed the market pretty well.
One or two orders of magnitude less, if the device is in the $1000
range. Those numbers both assume no government interference, of course.

-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato

Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds)

2001-10-24 Thread Neil Johnson


The Ames Strain of Anthrax wasn't "developed" in Ames, It was "discovered".
It was naturally occurring strain that was resistant to the anti-biotics
that were used to treat Anthrax at the time.

It is very commonly used in the study and research of bacteria, and up to a
few years ago  could be easily ordered from lab supply houses (as long as it
looked like an "offical" research organization, the company sent it).

It took a  white-supremicist scientist ordering it and then driving around
with it in the trunk of his car to convince the government more restrictions
to be put in place.

Re: Where the torture never stops..


on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 07:12:13PM -0700, John Young ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
wrote:

> These procedures were described in exquisite detail during
> the USA v. bin Laden et al trial earlier this year:
>
>   http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
>
> Use the search on Cryptome to find the transcripts describing
> the comb attack.

http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-72.htm

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Re: openbsd encrypted fs

2001-10-24 Thread zem


On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 01:38 PM 10/23/2001 +1000, zem wrote:
> >On 23 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:
> > > > vnconfig -ck svnd0 diskimage
>
> I don't have a BSD system around to check -
> what does this approach do?

Create a loopback device.  "-k" means encrypt - cipher is blowfish,
there's no way to change it.  After vnconfig, /dev/svnd0 becomes a block
device; use newfs and mount as with any partition.

Here's the man page:

http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=vnconfig

> Is Dr. Evil's concern with loopback just the speed?
> (Plus the ugly minimal user interface, which is a job for a script.)
> Machines are enough faster these days that I'd think the
> only places that's a big hit, other than database apps,
> are swap space, and you can mostly fix that by buying enough RAM.

The performance hit is acceptable, it's much faster than CFS.  OpenBSD's
encrypted swap uses the same mechanism.

> >It's worth noting their primary goal is network security, not crypto.
> >Rubber hoses don't factor significantly in their threat model.
>
> Laptop theft belongs in *most* security models.

Agreed.


-- 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] F289 2BDB 1DA0 F4C4 DC87 EC36 B2E3 4E75 C853 FD93
http://zem.squidly.org/ "I'm invisible, I'm invisible, I'm invisible.."

Re: CDR: [psychohistory] A Terrorist's Nursery (fwd)



Excellent.  Thank you for delivering the entire article, rather than a
link (I usually get to your likns BTW, but they do sit _way_ down on the
list).

 On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:37:54 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Jim Choate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: CDR: [psychohistory] A Terrorist's Nursery (fwd)
> 
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:18:52 +0300
> From: "[iso-8859-7] ×ñÞóôïò Êþíóôáò" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [psychohistory] A Terrorist's Nursery
> 
> Hi,
> The following article appeared in the INDEPENDET and, in IMO, presends well
> the Psychohistorical case of the 'making of terrorists'.
> I make some comments at the bottom of the message.
> 
> [
> Robert Fisk: As the refugees crowd the borders, we'll be blaming someone
> else
> 'It is palpably evident that they are not fleeing the Taliban but our bombs
> and missiles'
> 23 October 2001
> 
> Mullah Mohammed Omar's 10-year-old son is dead. He was, according to Afghan
> refugees fleeing Kandahar, taken to one of the city's broken hospitals by
> his father, the Taliban leader and "Emir of the Faithful", but the boy -
> apparently travelling in Omar's car when it was attacked by US aircraft -
> died of his wounds.
> 
> No regrets, of course. Back in 1985, when American aircraft bombed Libya,
> they also destroyed the life of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's six-year-old
> adopted daughter. No regrets, of course. In 1992, when an Israeli pilot
> flying an American-made Apache helicopter fired an American-made missile
> into the car of Said Abbas Moussawi, head of the Hizbollah guerrilla army in
> Lebanon, the Israeli pilot also killed Moussawi's 10-year-old. No regrets,
> of course.
> 
> Whether these children deserved their deaths, be sure that their fathers -
> in our eyes - were to blame. Live by the sword, die by the sword - and that
> goes for the kids too. Back in 1991, The Independent revealed that American
> Gulf War military targets included "secure" bunkers in which members of
> Saddam Hussein's family - or the families of his henchmen - were believed to
> be hiding. That's how the Americans managed to slaughter well over 300
> people in an air raid shelter at Amariya in Baghdad. No Saddam kids, just
> civilians. Too bad. I wonder - now that President George Bush has given
> permission to the CIA to murder Osama bin Laden - if the same policy applies
> today?
> 
> And so the casualties begin to mount. From Kandahar come ever more frightful
> stories of civilians buried under ruins, of children torn to pieces by
> American bombs. The Taliban - and here the Americans must breathe a
> collective sigh of relief - refuse to allow Western journalists to enter the
> country to verify these reports. So when a few television crews were able to
> find 18 fresh graves in the devastated village of Khorum outside Jalalabad
> just over a week ago, the US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld could
> ridicule the deaths as "ridiculous". But not, I suspect, for much longer.
> 
> For if each of our wars for infinite justice and eternal freedom have a
> familiar trade mark - the military claptrap about air superiority,
> suppression of "command and control centres", radar capabilities - each has
> an awkward, highly exclusive little twist to it. In 1999, Nato claimed it
> was waging war to put Kosovo Albanian refugees back in their homes - even
> though most of the refugees were still in their homes when the war began.
> Our bombing of Serbia led directly to their dispossession. We bear a heavy
> burden of responsibility for their suffering - since the Serbs had told us
> what they would do if Nato opened hostilities - although the ultimate blame
> for their "ethnic cleansing'' clearly belonged to Slobodan Milosevic.
> 
> But Nato's escape clause won't work this time round. For as the Afghan
> refugees turn up in their thousands at the border, it is palpably evident
> that they are fleeing not the Taliban but our bombs and missiles. The
> Taliban is not ethnically cleansing its own Pashtun population. The refugees
> speak vividly of their fear and terror as our bombs fall on their cities.
> These people are terrified of our "war on terror'', victims as innocent as
> those who were slaughtered in the World Trade Centre on 11 September. So
> where do we stop?
> 
> It's an important question because, once the winter storms breeze down the
> mountain gorges of Afghanistan, a tragedy is likely to commence, one which
> no spin doctor or propaganda expert will be able to divert. We'll say that
> the thousands about to die or who are dying of starvation and cold are
> victims of the Taliban's intransigence or the Taliban's support for
> "terrorism" or the Taliban's propensity to steal humanitarian supplies.
> 
> I have to admit - having been weaned on Israel's promiscuous use of the word
> "terro

Re: FINALLY! we can buy Staria


> http://www.tccsecure.com/csd4100.htm - no price

Great, no price and uses the world-famous DACE algorithm from Bell
Labs.  Next!

> http://www.thespystore.com/telefax.htm  - $249

One unit is a "scrambler" which boasts "52,488 code combinations!"
The other uses "rolling code scrambling", which I assume is not
digital.  Next!

> http://shop.store.yahoo.com/spytechagency/telscram.html - $260

It's another "scrambler" which doesn't list the algorithm and boasts
"thousands of key combinations."  I suspect that it is an analog
scrambler, not a true encryptor.  Next!

> http://www.tscm.com/stu.html - several models, over US$5000

Right, the Secure Telephone Units use solid security design and good
algorithms.  They are expensive.  STUs can be used for classified
information and they can be bought TEMPEST-spec.  I assume that either
these things are restricted to government contractors only, or if they
are available to anyone with a credit card, they come with a backdoor.

So, I checked all the URLs you gave me, and none of them, except the
STU, use real encryption, and the STUs are either not available, or
they are backdoored.

Starium is competing with STUs.  Not only does Starium have a catchier
name, but they are a fifth of the price of a STU, they are cooler
looking, and one could argue that they are less likely to have a
backdoor.

> And others in the over-US$1000 range.

Right, so Starium is price-competitive, easier to use, and possibly
more secure.  Oh, and they will sell to anyone who has money, unlike
the STU sellers, I assume.

I think their initial market are customers such as law enforcement,
criminal defense lawyers, and executives who might compare this with a
STU, and for whom $1000 vs $100 is no big deal.  Government and law
enforcement will think it's cheap compared to STUs.  It's not approved
for classified data (AFAIK) but that might not be a problem for law
enforcement work.

Re: openbsd encrypted fs

2001-10-24 Thread zem

On 24 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

> No, it has nothing to do with speed.  Machines are plenty fast.  This
> is just a kludgy way to do this, and the last time I tried it, I got
> kernel panics within a day or so of uptime.  Not acceptable,
> obviously.

2.7 had problems.  It's worked reliably for me since 2.8.  YMMV.

> > >Is booting from an encrypted fs ever useful?  Use read-only media if
> > >tampering is a concern.  Configure and mount other encrypted filesystems
> > >from /etc/rc.  If you can install and maintain OpenBSD, you can manage
>
> Surely you can appreciate that a software-only solution to
> tamper-resistance might have some usefulness?  Surely you can
> understand that, given a choice between booting from a CD and booting
> from hard disk, it might be an enormous pain to boot from CD all the
> time, and CDs are far less tamper-resistant than encrypted disk?
> Surely you can understand that there might be some config files in
> /etc that contain valuable information in some circumstances?

Sure.  Union mount the sensitive stuff over /etc as necessary.  CDs are
tamper resistant because they can be removed and carried.  Encryption is
not very useful as a tamper protection measure - it won't protect against
a DoS, or replacement of a partition with a trojan.

Encrypting system binaries is rarely useful.  It creates bootstrapping
problems and doesn't provide much benefit.  Encrypting /usr/local is
useful.

> Or
> perhaps a user wants to make sure that it cannot be proved that a
> certain application or kernel mod is installed?  With the right kind
> of boot loader and encrypted FS, you could conceal which OS is even
> being run.

Let's take a step back - this thread started because you suggested
win2k's encrypted filesystem was more useable than openbsd's.  Now your
argument against openbsd is that it's not invisible.

Out of interest, can Windows boot from an encrypted disk?

Yes, there are many different threat models ranging from casual to
paranoia.  Neither win2k nor openbsd will satisfy the truly paranoid.  But
openbsd does have a useful encrypted filesystem.

You're welcome to whine about the loopback not being the right colour or
whatever.  Hell, I'd skip the loopback layer if I could.  In the meantime
I'll use what's available.  My /home partition is encrypted - is yours?

> I can't believe that some people on this list think that storing data
> in an encrypted format is pointless.

Encrypting data is useful.  Encrypting system binaries is of little value.

-- 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] F289 2BDB 1DA0 F4C4 DC87 EC36 B2E3 4E75 C853 FD93
http://zem.squidly.org/ "I'm invisible, I'm invisible, I'm invisible.."

Anthrax Letters

2001-10-24 Thread FogStorm


Pictures of the Daschle, Brokaw, and NY Post anthrax letters + their 
envelopes.

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/102301.htm

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UNSUBSCRIBE ME PLEASE  #022154

Re: FINALLY! we can buy Staria

"Dr. Evil" wrote:
> 
> > I don't understand why one would pay $1000 for a Starium device when
> > comparable devices are available in the market place for less than half
> 
> Do you have any references for those? ...
> 
> > of that. The design goal for the new Starium boxes was sub-$100 retail.
> > I doubt that design goal was met, but I would not pay a penny over $350
> > for one device. Which will still leave the seller with a nice profit.

Declan reported on 1999/08/12 that Starium planned to sell them "by
early 2000" for under US$100.
(http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,21236,00.html)

A Google search on "telephone encryption" yields:

http://www.tccsecure.com/csd4100.htm - no price
http://www.thespystore.com/telefax.htm  - $249
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/spytechagency/telscram.html - $260
http://www.tscm.com/stu.html - several models, over US$5000

And others in the over-US$1000 range.

Few details on the devices, though some of them mention an algorithm.
(Including one which claimed 128-bit triple-DES. I'm not sure what to
make of that.) There were several other statements on some pages which
may have indicated either security holes or cluelessness on the part of
the writer, but more likely indicate cluelessness on my part.

-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato

Re: FINALLY! we can buy Staria


> I don't understand why one would pay $1000 for a Starium device when
> comparable devices are available in the market place for less than half

Do you have any references for those?  I'm in the market for a voice
encryptor system.  Are these devices really comparable in terms of
ease of use?

> of that. The design goal for the new Starium boxes was sub-$100 retail.
> I doubt that design goal was met, but I would not pay a penny over $350
> for one device. Which will still leave the seller with a nice profit.

Yeah, I remember they were supposed to be much cheaper.  Perhaps they
will drop the price later.  I'm sure they didn't pick this number
casually.  If this is something that a lawyer would use to communicate
with a client in criminal defense cases, or for government use, for
instances, then $2k/pair might be a very reasonable price.  It does
price it out of the consumer market, but how big is the consumer
market for these things, even if they are $100 each?

RE: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat

2001-10-24 Thread Sandy Sandfort

Lucky wrote:

> It would have been more impressive had
> Copperfield revealed the numbers he
> predicted an hour /before/ the drawing...

Yes, but that would have required REAL magic (or time travel).

Incidentally, Penn sent a further reading suggestion on the subject of
"mentalism."  The book is called, Self-Working Mental Magic by Karl Fulves.

 S a n d y

Re: Neverending Cycle



On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> Read your Aesop:  the thief needs no excuse.

Read "Green River Anthology", we are what our environment makes of us.

That's the 'nature' aspect just in case you're confused. You can't have
one without the other (contrary to your claim).

No mand is an island. Being responsible for ones actions is not the same
as being responsible for who one is, or how they came to that end.

It's worth noting that Hayek (among many) makes great pains to make it
clear that he does not(!!!) support this sort of 'individualism'.


 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Retribution not enough

On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
> > 
> > > Elementary - fair is whatever the parties in interest agree to. Period.
> > 
> > 'agree' is synonymous with 'free' in this case. All you're doing is
> > playing word games and hand waving.
> > 
> > What does it mean to 'agree'? 
> 
> You are the only one here who seems to have a problem with the meaning
> of that word.

Hardly. I just happen to be the Mongoose in a pit of snakes, so it should
surprise nobody (especially the snakes) if they all hiss.

The bottem line is you say 'fair' is whatever the two parties 'agree' to.
All you've done is shift the focus from 'fair' to 'agree'. And that shifts
the focus of the question as well. What does it mean to 'agree'.

And to answer another question 'is' means 'equivalent to' or 'identical
with' depending on context. Both acceptable here.

This is especially enlightening coming from a group (CACL, not Cypherpunks
per se) who claim that 'free markets' are the epitome of utopian
strategies (and 'free' most definitely has a significant and particular
meaning in this context - and it doesn't support yorur view). You're only
proving my point. Thank you.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: CDR: Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )

2001-10-24 Thread F. Marc de Piolenc

David Honig wrote:

> Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate
> such antipathy.

And if you believe that WTC had anything to do with US foreign policy,
or that we would cease being targets if we e.g. dropped suppport for
Israel, you are living in a dream world and have "bought" the
terrorists' propaganda.

We need to send a message that "armed propaganda" is not an acceptable
form of self-expression, no matter what the alleged cause.

Marc de Piolenc
Philippines

RE: Where the torture never stops..

2001-10-24 Thread Lucky Green


Undoubtedly, the bruises on the suspect's body and the electrical burn
marks on his testicles were self-inflicted... Oh, I see. The FBI will
release the suspect's body only after cremation. "For the public's
safety". Never mind my comment.

I didn't see it mentioned on this list, though I may have overlooked the
post, but the recent statements by the FBI that the agency is
considering torture of suspects stubbornly exercising their 5th
Amendment rights after 6 weeks of questioning is solid proof that the
subjects do not have legal representation. Even the most incompetent
public defender would by now have requested that the FBI stop question
their client.

--Lucky


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Khoder bin Hakkin
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 1:04 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Where the torture never stops..
> 
> 
> Wednesday October 24 2:24 PM ET
> 
> Pakistani Held in Attack Probe Dies in U.S. Jail
> 
> NEWARK, N.J. (Reuters) - A Pakistani arrested on immigration 
> charges in the U.S. probe of last month's suicide plane 
> attacks has been found dead in his jail cell in New Jersey, 
> but the cause of death is not yet known, a state official 
> said on Wednesday.
> 
> The body of the 55-year-old man, whose identity was not 
> released, was found in his cell on Tuesday at the Hudson 
> County jail in Kearny, said Jacob Delemos, a spokesman for 
> the Hudson County executive's office.
> 
> Delemos said officials administered a nasal swab on the body 
> to test for anthrax and the result was negative. Anthrax, a 
> potential germ warfare agent, has killed at least three 
> people in the United States this month and the government 
> fears its spread may be the work of those responsible for the 
> Sept. 11 plane attacks.
> 
> He said the man was arrested on Sept. 19 ``along with others 
> in that aggressive approach of the FBI'' after the attacks on 
> the 110-storey twin towers of the World Trade Center, 
> Washington and Pennsylvania that killed more than 5,000 
> people. He said the man was being held on immigration charges.
> 
> Delemos said more than three weeks ago the man had complained 
> of gum pain and showed signs of gingivitis, according to the 
> county medical examiner. He was treated with an antibiotic 
> between Oct. 1 and Oct. 6.
> 
> Representatives of the FBI and the Immigration and 
> Naturalization Service were not immediately available to comment.
> 
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011024/ts/attack_newjersey
> _detainee_dc_1.html
> 
> Flies all green and buzzin',
>in this dungeon of despair.
>Prisoners grumble and piss 
> their clothes,
> 
>and scratch their matted hair.
>A tiny light, from a window hole,
>a hundred yards away,
>is all they ever gets to know
>about the regular light in the day.
> 
>And it stinks so bad, the 
> stones been chokin',
>and weepin' greenish drops.
>In the room where the giant 
> fire puffer works,
>and the torture never stops.
> 
>The torture never stops.
> 
>Slime and rot, rats and snot,
>and vomit on the floor.
>Fifty yoogly soldiers, man,
>holdin' spears by the iron door.
>Knives and spikes, and guns 
> and the likes
> 
>of every tool of pain.
>And a sinister midget, with a 
> bucket and a mop,
>where the blood goes down the drain.
> 
>And it stinks so bad, the 
> stones been chokin',
>and weepin' greenish drops.
>In the room where the giant 
> fire puffer works,
>and the torture never stops.
> 
>The torture never stops.
>The torture.. the torture..
>The torture never stops.
> 
>Flies all green and buzzin',
>in this dungeon of despair.
>An evil prince eat

make the correct decision, Mitch --kill yourself now

2001-10-24 Thread Pam Cholinesterase


Dear Friend Mitch Shoemaker
82 north iron st.
Bloomsburg pa,17815

Hey Mitch baby, what's wrong, your ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB getting a bit
intense?

Allergies to your new latex gloves?

We'll remember that when we're buggering you in hell, spammer.

THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!

WTC Choppers

2001-10-24 Thread John Young

Frog wrote:

>Not a plausible claim, to anyone who recalls the situation at the
>top of the WTC on those days.  The incredible heat and smoke from
>an entire jetliner full of fuel a hundred feet below would make
>helicopter operations impossible.  Trying to land on the roof under
>those circumstances would be suicide.  Helicopters circled, but they
>could not approach.

That was the initial perception. The NY Times had a report
yesterday about a pilot of one of the police choppers who 
described his futile rescue attempt -- he was on the scene
within ten minutes of the crash. The pilot said the smoke 
was blowing away from Tower 1 (the first hit) so there was a 
fair sized refuge for people to stand in any had accessed the 
roof. 

A thicket of antennas would have prevented landing but the pilot 
said there was a hoist onboard with a 200 foot cable capable of 
picking up people. A colleague was ready to descend to the roof 
to assist. Nobody came to the roof.

Another chopper hovered nearby to do the same. Other choppers
were on their way from Long Island but flights were cancelled
when it was reported nobody was on the roof.

The pilot said it was possible that at least a dozen or so
people could have been rescued before the collapse.

The pilot said at the 1993 bombing a cop was lowered to
cut away a wad of antennas so roof pickups could be made,
but that was too risky on 911.

The Times report said that only Los Angeles allows chopper
rescue from high rise buildings. Most fire departments believe
chopper rescue is too high risk and that exit by stairway is far 
safer. But in the light of WTC collapse fire departments are 
reviewing that prohibition.

The NY Fire Department, like many FDs, has no choppers,
and sees police choppers as scenewhores. Not as bad
as Sir Rudy and the Fire Commish but close.

Re: Re: MATT DRUDGE // DRUDGE REPORT 2001®

2001-10-24 Thread Frog2


[What's with the Subject line?
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_MATT_DRUDGE_//_DRUDGE_REPORT_2001=AE?=]

> Two hovering police choppers waited for people to come
> to the roof, rescue hoists ready, but none made it past the 
> locked doors -- a couple of the doorbangers cellphoned 
> home to scream bloody murder.

Not a plausible claim, to anyone who recalls the situation at the
top of the WTC on those days.  The incredible heat and smoke from
an entire jetliner full of fuel a hundred feet below would make
helicopter operations impossible.  Trying to land on the roof under
those circumstances would be suicide.  Helicopters circled, but they
could not approach.

Re: CDR: Re: Retribution not enough



On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> What does it mean to 'agree'? 

or, more to the point, what does "is" mean?

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: CDR: a question

On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, (na) mshoe wrote:

> I first want you to know I understand what you do but

Great!  Could you please explain it to *US* then?  I [seriously] doubt
that most of us know what it is we do here!

> I need to ask you to please remove the post from
> http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2001.05.07-2001.05.13/msg00330.html

Information wants to be Free, Mitch.  Kinda sucks to be you, doesn't it?

> I am only 16 and just wanted to get some money the
> easy way at the time I had no idea that it was
> illegal.

But, as you indicated, you wanted it "the easy way" - TANSTAAFL.

> I know I made a mistake and I am sorry for
> it. I just want to put this mistake beind me and

It's good you can learn from your mistakes: it shows you are a little
higher on the food chain than most of the folks you will run into out
there.  Kudos.

> getting my family's address off the internet would be
> a big help. Please consider removing the postings.
> Thank You, Mitch

Unfortunately Mitch, that's not likely to be the only archive of your
posting(s).  I usually refer to google as "your friend", although in this
case...

Even if this archived post is killed by the persona running the archive
(which I doubt), you would still have an "internet history".  Probably a
lot more history than you expect: http://www.google.com .

You are right in your assessment that it is time to put your mistakes
behind you and move on, but unfortunately, there is literally no way [that
I know of] to "erase yourself from the face of the internet".

Good luck to you Mitch.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: Schelling points and political isolationism

2001-10-24 Thread Faustine


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Tim wrote:

>And my meta-Schelling point was actually that the concept of a 
>Schelling point is itself a Schelling point: many people, even 
>animals, come to the independent conclusion that figuring out where
>the Schelling points are is a good survival strategy. (Or something
>like thisyou get the drift.)


I suppose, but don't forget that there really is a reason they're
called "Schelling" points instead of anything else. People really
ought to invest a little time in reading the genuine article:

The Strategy of Conflict, Harvard University Press, 1960
Choice and Consequence, Harvard University Press, 1984 
Micromotives and Macrobehavior, Norton, 1978

Did you know that Thomas Schelling is still very much alive and
teaching strategy around the country? Amazing man, sharp as ever.
 

~Faustine.



***

The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedoms.
- --William O. Douglas, Associate Justice, US Supreme Court

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Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its 
affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version)

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Re: Market Competition for Security Measures

2001-10-24 Thread Sampo Syreeni

On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

>Federalizing or socializing the costs of security is like federalizing
>or socializing flood insurance: it takes the efficiencies of the market
>away and creates distortions.

A bare one objection to comprehensive market based security: a market
needs private property, and other civil rights, in order to function
efficiently, as predicted. Protection is what guarantees those rights. If
you place protection on the market, you no longer have a guarantee that
the market itself can function as originally intended.

Cf. piracy (in its original form) -- an evolutionary system like pure
market economy (anarcho-capitalism) will likely settle in a state with
parasitic activity present. It is not clear that this stable state (you
would call it a Schelling point) would not include a major proportion of
rights violating commerce (like mafia protection rackets and the like).
Hence it is not clear that it indeed guarantees maximum economic
efficiency; it might be just a local maximum.

The above, of course, has very little to do with Tim's analysis of private
security of the airline industry. But it does have a lot of relevance to
placing *all* of the normal police activity in the private sector. If I'm
not wrong, Tim's essay is part of precisely such an agenda.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2

Re: Market Competition for Security Measures

On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> I didn't "dismiss" it. In fact, I wrote more about this issue, which I
> haven't seen brought up by anyone else here, than 95% of all posts to
> Cypherpunks have in their entire amount of original material!

My apologies. Dismiss was not the correct word.

I suppose I view this issue as a larger hurdle then you do.

> I never claimed that a stable end-state is that of some airlines have
> "no security procedures." Such was not the case before 911, so it is
> even less likely today.

[snip]

> You are making my point, not arguing against it. I never claimed that a
> spectrum of security measures would be a stable, or even a short-term,
> state.

Okay. I took your thoughts to mean that you were envisioning a market
where the level of security provided by the airlines was completely under
the control of the airlines themselves, and would be adjusted by the
airlines according to the demands of the customers (and to a lesser
extent, the employees and share-holders) so that the airline could remain
profitable.

My point was that such a system wouldn't get off the ground. The issue
isn't simply *actual* collateral damage. Airlines would have to get
permission to use the airspace their planes would occupy. If an airline's
proposed security measures didn't meet with the requirements for the
community controlling the airspace that airline wished to utilize, the
airline wouldn't ever have the chance to see how the market would react to
its security offering. I think it's a non-starter, because the potential
collateral damage and the reliance on third-party "right-of-ways" is too
great.

Such a system could work well in other instances, though.

Compare to private railway lines. A private train service would be able to
initiate such a system with much greater ease, since there is much less
potential collateral damage, and less use of third-party resources and
property.

Call me a pessimist, but I can't see how an airline with "less than
acceptable for the Common Good" security measures would ever be able to
begin operating. I don't think we'd ever have the opportunity to see what
the market reaction would be -- the airline would not fly one plane.

> May's Law: The longer the essay, the more complaints there are that it
> was not detailed enough.

Oh, Tim... I wasn't complaining. You asked for thoughts, and I was
offering mine.

-MW-

Where the torture never stops..

2001-10-24 Thread Khoder bin Hakkin


Wednesday October 24 2:24 PM ET

Pakistani Held in Attack Probe Dies in U.S. Jail

NEWARK, N.J. (Reuters) - A Pakistani arrested on immigration charges in
the U.S. probe of last month's suicide plane
attacks has been found dead in his jail cell in New Jersey, but the
cause of death is not yet known, a state official said
on Wednesday.

The body of the 55-year-old man, whose identity was not released, was
found in his cell on Tuesday at the Hudson
County jail in Kearny, said Jacob Delemos, a spokesman for the Hudson
County executive's office.

Delemos said officials administered a nasal swab on the body to test for
anthrax and the result was negative. Anthrax, a
potential germ warfare agent, has killed at least three people in the
United States this month and the government fears its
spread may be the work of those responsible for the Sept. 11 plane
attacks.

He said the man was arrested on Sept. 19 ``along with others in that
aggressive approach of the FBI'' after the attacks
on the 110-storey twin towers of the World Trade Center, Washington and
Pennsylvania that killed more than 5,000
people. He said the man was being held on immigration charges.

Delemos said more than three weeks ago the man had complained of gum
pain and showed signs of gingivitis, according
to the county medical examiner. He was treated with an antibiotic
between Oct. 1 and Oct. 6.

Representatives of the FBI and the Immigration and Naturalization
Service were not immediately available to comment.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011024/ts/attack_newjersey_detainee_dc_1.html

Flies all green and buzzin',
   in this dungeon of despair.
   Prisoners grumble and piss their clothes,

   and scratch their matted hair.
   A tiny light, from a window hole,
   a hundred yards away,
   is all they ever gets to know
   about the regular light in the day.

   And it stinks so bad, the stones been
chokin',
   and weepin' greenish drops.
   In the room where the giant fire puffer
works,
   and the torture never stops.

   The torture never stops.

   Slime and rot, rats and snot,
   and vomit on the floor.
   Fifty yoogly soldiers, man,
   holdin' spears by the iron door.
   Knives and spikes, and guns and the likes

   of every tool of pain.
   And a sinister midget, with a bucket and
a mop,
   where the blood goes down the drain.

   And it stinks so bad, the stones been
chokin',
   and weepin' greenish drops.
   In the room where the giant fire puffer
works,
   and the torture never stops.

   The torture never stops.
   The torture.. the torture..
   The torture never stops.

   Flies all green and buzzin',
   in this dungeon of despair.
   An evil prince eats a steaming pig,
   in a chamber right near there.
   He eats the snouts and the trotters
first.
   The loins and the groins is soon
dispersed.
   His carvin' style is well rehearsed.
   He stands and shouts:

   All men be cursed!
   All men be cursed!
   All men be cursed!
   All men be cursed!

   And disagree?
   Well, no one durst.

   He's the best, of course, of all the
worst.
   Some wrong been done, he done it first.

   And it stinks so bad, his bones been
chokin',
   and weepin' greenish drops.
   In the night of the iron sausage,
   where the torture never stops.

   The torture never stops.
   The torture.. the torture..
   The torture never stops.

   Flies all green and buzzin',
   in this dungeon of despair.
   Who are a

Re: George Mason U. adopts a free-market philosophy to an unusual degree

On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 10:34:11AM -0700, Gabriel Rocha wrote:
> http://washington.bcentral.com/washington/stories/2001/10/22/focus1.html
> 
> George Mason U. adopts a free-market philosophy to an unusual degree

I skimmed the article, and it seems decent, but entirely anticlimatic.

Any institution that would embrace IHS and the Mercatus Center is
"unusually" free-market.

-Declan

You could search for a year and..........

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Democratic critters' biochemwomdterror plans


>* * * * * MEDIA ADVISORY * * * * *
>
>NEWS FROM THE OFFICE OF THE DEMOCRATIC LEADER
>
>__
>
>FOR IMMEDIATE 
>RELEASE:  House Democratic 
>Leader Richard A. Gephardt
>Wednesday, October 23, 
>2001 
>H-204, U.S. Capitol
>
> 
>http://democraticleader.house.gov/
>
>GEPHARDT, MENENDEZ TO ANNOUNCE DEMOCRATIC BIOTERRORISM LEGISLATION
>
>WASHINGTON, DC -- Rep. Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Vice Chair of the Democratic 
>Caucus and Chair of the Democratic Task Force on Homeland Security, joined 
>by Democratic Leader Richard Gephardt and Members of the Task Force, will 
>announce the Democratic proposal to prepare and protect communities 
>throughout America against future threats or attacks.
>
>The Democratic Bill, the Bioterrorism Protection Act (BioPAct) of 2001, 
>seeks to eliminate biological threats, secure our borders on land and at 
>sea, protect our food and water, equip our communities with the resources 
>to prevent and respond to bioterrorism, and strengthen our Intelligence 
>through full coordination, using our most advanced technology to fight 
>bioterrorism.
>
>WHO: Gephardt, Menendez, Democratic Task Force on Homeland Security
>WHAT: Democratic Bioterrorism Bill
>WHEN: Thursday, October 25th, 10:00 a.m
>WHERE: House Triangle
>(This event will replace the usual stakeout following the Democratic Caucus)
>###

[Fwd: [biofuel] VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy]

2001-10-24 Thread Harmon Seaver

 Original Message 
Subject: [biofuel] VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:29:19 +0900
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.news24.co.za/News24/Wheels24/News/0,3999,2-15-47_1083848,00.html

21/09/2001 14:38  - (SA)

VW presents new synthetic fuel strategy

In the context of its fuel strategy released at the recent Frankfurt 
IAA Motor Show, Volkswagen sees SunFuel as a key step towards 
environmentally compatible mobility. The new fuel offers considerable 
potential for the optimisation of conventional engines. SunFuel is 
also suitable for use in fuel cell systems with reformers.

On this basis, it will be possible to fill up fuel cell vehicles with 
a fuel produced from renewable resources without developing costly 
new infrastructure of the type which would be needed for hydrogen 
fuel.

SunFuel is a synthetic fuel produced from biomass by a regenerative 
process. Natural photosynthesis is used for fuel production. Plants 
develop biomass from atmospheric carbon dioxide with the aid of 
energy from the sun.

To a large extent, this biomass consists of carbon and hydrogen. In 
the first step of the SunFuel process, these major constituents of 
biomass are converted into synthesis gas (H2, CO, CO2). This is then 
transformed into hydrocarbons in a synthesis reactor and processed as 
required to produce the "designer" fuel.

SunFuel is an extremely high-grade fuel, free from sulphur and 
aromatics. As biomass binds carbon dioxide during growth, the process 
is neutral with regard to carbon dioxide production. A variety of 
different types of biomass can be used for the synthesis of the new 
fuel.

On the one hand, fast-growing, sturdy, resilient plants such as sedge 
(Miscanthus), poplars or willows can be grown. On the other hand, 
waste products containing carbon and hydrogen, such as sewage sludge, 
plastics or household refuse, can also be processed.

SunFuel must not be confused with Biodiesel. While only rapeseed oil 
is used for Biodiesel production, the SunFuel process taps the energy 
contained in the entire plant.

The use of SunFuel is highly environmentally compatible. In contrast 
to fossil fuels such as oil or natural gas, no additional carbon 
dioxide is produced during the combustion of SunFuel. As it is free 
from sulphur and aromatics, the new fuel also ensures a significant 
reduction in all types of emissions normally measured, especially 
particulate matter.

According to Dr Ulrich Eichhorn, Head of Volkswagen Research, 
"SunFuel opens up additional new perspectives. To date, engine 
developers have been forced to work with the fuel qualities 
available. Now, synthetic fuels of a variety of types can be produced.

"Not only petrol or diesel fuels can be synthesized from biomass. A 
number of intermediate stages are also possible. On this basis, there 
could be further rapprochement between petrol and diesel technology. 
In this way, the benefits of a diesel engine, such as low 
consumption, could be further expanded and combined with the very low 
emissions of a petrol engine with three-way catalytic converter.

"The designer fuel can be mixed with conventional petrol or diesel 
without any problems. SunFuel could therefore be introduced in a 
gradual transition process.

"In order to produce SunFuel for all the diesel-engined vehicles in 
Germany, it would be necessary to plant about 20 000 square 
kilometres. Currently, this area is certainly not available. However, 
the area of agricultural set-aside, about 10 000 square kilometres, 
could be used for growing energy plants for fuel production.

"The production of synthetic fuels from natural gas is a 
state-of-the-art technology. The properties of the fuel do not 
change. However, this type of synthetic fuel can result in a carbon 
dioxide saving if associated gas (for instance, the gas produced 
together with oil, which is normally flared) is used."

Volkswagen sees hydrogen as a possible fuel of the future. However, 
it will be best to combine hydrogen with fuel cell technology.

According to Dr Eichhorn, "There are still at lest three 
technological barriers to overcome: the regenerative production, 
storage and distribution of hydrogen. Volkswagen therefore believes 
that hydrogen technology will not be used before 2015."

Hydrogen will only result in a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions 
if it is produced from renewable sources. However, carbon dioxide 
reduction with regenerative energy production is not only possible if 
elementary hydrogen is used as a fuel. SunFuel can be stored and 
distributed using existing infrastructure and is less costly to 
produce than hydrogen. This is why Volkswagen sees SunFuel as a 
promising fuel for the future.

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Schelling points and political isolationism

On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 12:01 PM, David Honig wrote:

Many excellent points...

...

> If you look up "Schelling points" you find Tim's
> http://www.inet-
> one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.07.25-1996.07.31/msg00032.html
> metaphor about interfering with another family because you disapprove of
> how they raise their children.  Basically the Soviet Union "died and 
> left
> US boss" of the neighborhood.  But the US, playing self-appointed cop,
> has made lots of enemies; and even cops must sleep.  The sleeping giant
> finds that someone has tried to burn his house down while he sleeps.
> The giant needs to hit back, then stop accumulating enemies.

And my meta-Schelling point was actually that the concept of a Schelling 
point is itself a Schelling point: many people, even animals, come to 
the independent conclusion that figuring out where the Schelling points 
are is a good survival strategy. (Or something like thisyou get the 
drift.)

Free societies operate mainly on the basis of local, mutually 
agreed-upon transactions. Organized crime usually pops up when some 
bunch of distant thugs sets up rules which distort these mutually 
agreed-upon transactions. The rise of the Mob during Prohibititon is a 
perfect example, oft-discussed. The rise of many crime units, including 
government crime operations, during the War on Some Drugs in the past 35 
years is another perfect example.
> ...
> To those who gripe we need the oil (or other resources): ask the 
> families of
> the WTC corpses if doubled gas prices (for a few years until a safer 
> supply
> rises)
> are worth it.

Even the Gulf War is a good example of this. There is no reason to 
believe Saddam Hussein would have "cut off the oil." Just the opposite, 
in fact. There is every reason to believe that a mostly modern society 
like Iraq (as of 1990) would have had far more pressures to pump oil 
than a small clique of Bedouin thieves would have to do so.

Evidence is strong that Iraq would have flooded the markets with oil.

I'm not defending Saddam as a Good Guy, just saying vital national 
interests were not involved. By getting into these "foreign 
entanglements," things have gotten much worse.

--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.

Re: Market Competition for Security Measures

On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 11:33 AM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> Largely, I am in agreement. However, in the paragraphs I've quoted 
> below,
> Tim touches on a counter-argument and dismisses it. I'll like to expand
> upon that a bit.

I didn't "dismiss" it. In fact, I wrote more about this issue, which I 
haven't seen brought up by anyone else here, than 95% of all posts to 
Cypherpunks have in their entire amount of original material!
>>
>> (There are interesting issues of "danger to others." Friedman the
>> Younger covers this in his recent book on economics. "Law's Order." To
>> wit, XYZ Airlines, with no security procedures, might be denied use of
>> various airports, etc. A standard tort issue. The outcome is not
>> precisely known, but a move toward "market competition for security
>> measures" would flesh out many of these issues and outcomes.)
>
> I think that this "danger to others" issue will lead us right back where
> we started. It would not simply be an issue of various airports denying
> use, but also communities denying airspace rights. And you can bet that,
> in a world where airlines were permitted to have no security procedures,
> XYZ Airlines would also have to abide by "no-fly zones" set up by the
> larger, more security-conscious cities, enforceable by SAMs.

I never claimed that a stable end-state is that of some airlines have 
"no security procedures." Such was not the case before 911, so it is 
even less likely today.

I don't know what the evolution will look like. The ecology of the 
security measures will probably, if allowed to by regulators, have a few 
hyper-conscious players like El Al, a few cattle car playes like People 
Express, and a bunch of players in between.

I was not "dismissing" this issue of collateral damage, of tort damage. 
I said Friedman explores such things in great detail.

However, the current system does not allow the positive effects I 
described. Any airline in the U.S. (or many other countries) which 
attempted some obvious security measures would face lawsuits by 
"discriminated against" customers.

This is a more pressing problem than some extremely unlikely scenario 
wherein some carrier adopted a "no security procedures" policy.

> There would probably be places in the mid-west that permitted such
> airlines to operate their services. But the market would surely kill 
> them
> swiftly if they were denied the ability to fly or land in any popular
> area. Customers would go elsewhere, not because of the lax security, but
> because of the limited service offerings.

You are making my point, not arguing against it. I never claimed that a 
spectrum of security measures would be a stable, or even a short-term, 
state.

May's Law: The longer the essay, the more complaints there are that it 
was not detailed enough.

--Tim May
"That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau

Sheeple earning sheeps' disease (Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds ))

At 10:11 AM 10/24/01 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>David Honig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :
>>
>>Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate
>>such antipathy.  
>>
>>The message of the WTC is this: regular ole' non-mil sheeple *are* held
>>responsible for
>>the actions of their government.  *Even* in the US.  What a concept.
>>I suppose the sheeple in Dresden (etc.) know what that's like.  
>>
>>When the US populations' endocrines settle down, maybe they'll clue in to
>>cause and effect.  Doubt it.  Getting involved in others' family feuds is
just
>>too much fun.
>>
>>What was it General Washington said about foreign entanglements?  I'd tattoo
>>it onto every congressvermin's forehead.
>>

>Not that it isn't a good direction to head but I wonder what your
>time-scale is for the conversion of a society that cannot survive
>without an influx of inexpensive resources from foreign sources into
>something less colonial? It has to be decades at a minimum.

Tomorrow.  No USG money, no USG troops outside the US.

>In the meantime how do we deal with the Islamic Fundamentalist nutters?

We have an immediate obligation to fight back.   If we can find something
to hit.
This is not an exception to the above withdrawl --this is striking back, to
maintain
our reputation, only.  

But we can certainly let the foreign tyrants whom we currently defend, at our
peril (and frankly disgrace), fend for themselves.

Let *their* oppressed earn *their* freedom.  Let US citizens go over and fight
if they want to, as private citizens, as many did during e.g., the spanish
civil war.  But as a government do not engage in foreign entanglements.
Because
karma happens.  Behavior has consequences.  

Otherwise, sheeple will continue to earn sheeps' disease --anthrax, etc.
As you say, the US is far too vulnerable, and will shut down ---which 
is one of the Jihad's goals.  Part of 'getting our attention'.

>Or our own Christian Fundamentalist nutters for that matter. I don't
>want to hear about good and evil, Christian vs. Muslim, True faiths vs.
>ersatz faiths or right vs. wrong. 

But you *will* when the interventionists gripe about how oppressed the poor
inhabitants are, and "shouldn't we intervene?".  Of course the
interventionists
want to spend *your* money and your offspring pursuing *their* grand plans.
 Which look
much like colonialism and culture war from the other side.

The crew that did the WTC is
>dangerous. Those who are sending anthrax through the mails are
>dangerous. 

No argument there.

Near-term solutions are called for. I would like to see
>solutions that don't involve further trashing of our civil rights but I
>have no compassion for the terrorists or freedom fighters or whatever
>the hell you want to call them.
>
>Mike

I'm waiting for some asian caucus to declare that, given the circumstances,
all arabs should be sent to Nevada.

.
If you look up "Schelling points" you find Tim's 
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.07.25-1996.07.31/msg00032.html
metaphor about interfering with another family because you disapprove of
how they raise their children.  Basically the Soviet Union "died and left
US boss" of the neighborhood.  But the US, playing self-appointed cop, 
has made lots of enemies; and even cops must sleep.  The sleeping giant
finds that someone has tried to burn his house down while he sleeps.
The giant needs to hit back, then stop accumulating enemies.

Free trade does not make enemies.  Government intervention does.
Funny how consensual acts are ok and nonconsensual ones not.

...
Mind you, I believe in right and wrong -hell, I quote Rand- and 
I'd be happy forcing all the tyrant-governments (from the French, English,
Mexican, etc. 
to the Saudis) to accept the US constitution, *all of it*, or else.  
But that's questionable and going to create enemies.  If someone did that
to you, you might take up arms too (or planes, or spores, given the
asymmetry).

Best to stay out of their family feuds (Yugoslavia, Palestine, Ireland,
Spain, africa, etc.) and don't force them to "do it our way or else" --even
though our way is the right way.  
Lead by example.  Not intervention.  

...
To those who gripe we need the oil (or other resources): ask the families of 
the WTC corpses if doubled gas prices (for a few years until a safer supply
rises) 
are worth it.

Re: Retribution not enough

2001-10-24 Thread cubic-dog


On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Eric Murray wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:44:09AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>  
> > "Sure, unions are good" is not at all obvious to me. Why do you claim 
> > this?
> > 
> > Most labor unions are simply rent-seeking clubs designed to cement the 
> > status quo. Teacher's unions in the U.S. are a prime example: once the 
> > union got powerful enough, it fought for a tenure-type system which made 
> > it nearly impossible to remove those who taught poorly and to reward 
> > those who taught especially well.
> > 
> > I've never belonged to a labor union of any kind, and they are 
> > essentially absent from the chip and computer industries.
> > 
> >  From what I have seen, labor unions are a collectivist evil.
> 
> Same here.
> 
> The union management quickly becomes yet another set of bosses.
> You'd have to be an idiot to voluntarily request that you have
> TWO sets of bosses instead of one.
> 

True, Unions are idiotic.

Being the spawn of the southwest wv coal fields, 
I can promise that the boss who tries to get you
some pay is somewhat better than the boss who just as soon
have you machine gunned if you don't want to work
for free.

Re: Market Competition for Security Measures

On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

I don't have time to respond in depth to the points Tim makes here, so I
have snipped a lot of them. I intend to come back and comment in more
detail later.

Largely, I am in agreement. However, in the paragraphs I've quoted below,
Tim touches on a counter-argument and dismisses it. I'll like to expand
upon that a bit.

> * one size does _not_ fit all. Not all passengers are equally likely to
> be security risks. This is common sense, but the civil libertarians call
> it "racial profiling." True civil libertarians know that owners of
> property (e.g. United Airlines) are free to implement security
> procedures as they see fit. If ABX Airlines wants to implement full body
> searches of passengers and XYZ Airlines wants to implement no security
> at all, to first order this should be a market decision.
>
> (There are interesting issues of "danger to others." Friedman the
> Younger covers this in his recent book on economics. "Law's Order." To
> wit, XYZ Airlines, with no security procedures, might be denied use of
> various airports, etc. A standard tort issue. The outcome is not
> precisely known, but a move toward "market competition for security
> measures" would flesh out many of these issues and outcomes.)

I think that this "danger to others" issue will lead us right back where
we started. It would not simply be an issue of various airports denying
use, but also communities denying airspace rights. And you can bet that,
in a world where airlines were permitted to have no security procedures,
XYZ Airlines would also have to abide by "no-fly zones" set up by the
larger, more security-conscious cities, enforceable by SAMs.

There would probably be places in the mid-west that permitted such
airlines to operate their services. But the market would surely kill them
swiftly if they were denied the ability to fly or land in any popular
area. Customers would go elsewhere, not because of the lax security, but
because of the limited service offerings.

If planes didn't bring down office buildings, if there were no issue of
airline policies posing a danger to others, perhaps this would be
different.

-MW-

Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds


On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 11:05 AM, David Honig wrote:

> At 10:32 AM 10/24/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 10:14 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:
>>>
 Enough rads to sterilize?  Forget film.
>>>
>>> What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these
>>> flux levels?
>>
>>
>> Nothing. Magnetic oxides and metallic thin films are not affected by
>> mere few tens of kilorads, or even by megarads.
>>
>> Ionizing radiation has no particular first order effect on such films.
>>
>
> Um, Tim, I was talking about silver-halogen photographic 'films'.
>

And I was replying to Sampo Syreeni, who asked "What do you suppose 
happens to disks and other magnetic media at these flux levels?"

I wasn't commenting on photographic film.

>
> You do raise the question of what happens to 100-atom thick gate 
> oxides...
> but that's not what *I* was writing about.
>

See above about what I was replying to.

--Tim May
"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"  
--Unknown Usenet Poster

Re: Market Competition for Security Measures

On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 10:52 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> You seem to have left out the fact that the single largest player in the
> "market" today is the government.

That's the sea the fish swim in...so pervasive that no one needs 
reminding of it.

I am arguing for increased privatization, through simple measures.
>

> The security measures that are now in
> place for air travel are IMHO an abuse by regulators that amounts to
> using a private actor as a proxy for an illegal search : to whit names,
> flight numbers and dates. Feinstein was on the news this morning talking
> about using airlight flight manifests to develop databases for tracking
> movements.

I don't support this government role.

By the way, there are reports (maybe reposted here) that some hotel 
chains are "cooperating" in programs to link their data bases of hotel 
reservations with airline reservations with government files. So that 
"Joe Businessman" has booked a room at the San Francisco Hyatt Regency, 
Hyatt will link to his flight. Links to his company are next. The 
argument will be that this allows taking him off the list of suspects to 
scrutinize.

We are headed toward a fully-credentialized society. No doubt with 
European-type laws requiring identification for all hotel check-ins. 
(I've been forced to show my driver's license at hotels for the past 
dozen years or so. "Cash" has been discouraged, though it's not illegal, 
yet, for hotels and motels to take cash and no I.D. It likely soon will 
be.)

>
> As far as I am concerned an airline ticket should be a bearer instrument
> entitling the holder to passage. Their job is to get people from A to B.
> I should be able to travel as Ben Franklin with an ID I printed myself
> as long as the fare has been paid. The reasons for my travel, how and
> when I paid for my ticket and the date of my return trip are irrelevant.

You are welcome to look for a carrier that operates this way, in my 
scheme.

But if Tim's Airline wants your fingerprints and retinal scans and a 
hefty security bond, you are free to find another carrier.

>
> About the only implementation of a trust certificate that would be
> acceptable is one that was issued after convincing the issuer that you
> were a "good guy" and was tied to you by perhaps a biometric and a PIN
> attribute but for which all connections to your identity were not
> stored. IOW, "we don't know who you are but we believe the certificate
> belongs to you, we trust the issuer and they trusted you so off you go
> then."
>
> I'm sure there are protocols for proving membership without betraying
> identity.
>
> I want a choice in whether I leave a record of my travels or not. For
> estate reasons I may want to escrow my travel records for the duration
> of the trip. Bottom line : I want more control, more freedom, not less.

I don't disagree with your "wants," but the trends are not in our favor.

Privatizing security at least gets market forces back into the equation, 
which they've been out of for far too long.

--Tim May
"Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But 
stupidity is the only universal crime;  the sentence is death, there is 
no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." 
--Robert A. Heinlein

Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds

At 10:32 AM 10/24/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 10:14 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:
>>
>>> Enough rads to sterilize?  Forget film.
>>
>> What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these
>> flux levels?
>
>
>Nothing. Magnetic oxides and metallic thin films are not affected by 
>mere few tens of kilorads, or even by megarads.
>
>Ionizing radiation has no particular first order effect on such films.
>

Um, Tim, I was talking about silver-halogen photographic 'films'.

You do raise the question of what happens to 100-atom thick gate oxides...
but that's not what *I* was writing about.

Radiation can also change the color of gems --used to 'cheat' and make
them more valuable--- but probably not a lot of diamonds go through the USPO,
and I don't know what dosage is necessary to introduce the appropriate defect
density.

Never Before Seen #49A2

2001-10-24 Thread Christine Baker

Title: 


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Re: Market Competition for Security Measures

2001-10-24 Thread mmotyka


You seem to have left out the fact that the single largest player in the
"market" today is the government. The security measures that are now in
place for air travel are IMHO an abuse by regulators that amounts to
using a private actor as a proxy for an illegal search : to whit names,
flight numbers and dates. Feinstein was on the news this morning talking
about using airlight flight manifests to develop databases for tracking
movements.

As far as I am concerned an airline ticket should be a bearer instrument
entitling the holder to passage. Their job is to get people from A to B.
I should be able to travel as Ben Franklin with an ID I printed myself
as long as the fare has been paid. The reasons for my travel, how and
when I paid for my ticket and the date of my return trip are irrelevant.
Had the cockpit doors been secure, the pilots able to watch CCTV of the
passenger areas, plainclothes police been aboard and the info gained
from Ramzi Yousef's PC captured in Manila been incorporated into hijack
training and protocols 911 would not have happened even if half of al
Quaeda had been flying United that day.

About the only implementation of a trust certificate that would be
acceptable is one that was issued after convincing the issuer that you
were a "good guy" and was tied to you by perhaps a biometric and a PIN
attribute but for which all connections to your identity were not
stored. IOW, "we don't know who you are but we believe the certificate
belongs to you, we trust the issuer and they trusted you so off you go
then."

I'm sure there are protocols for proving membership without betraying
identity.

I want a choice in whether I leave a record of my travels or not. For
estate reasons I may want to escrow my travel records for the duration
of the trip. Bottom line : I want more control, more freedom, not less.

Mike

Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds

On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 10:14 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>> Enough rads to sterilize?  Forget film.
>
> What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these
> flux levels?

Nothing. Magnetic oxides and metallic thin films are not affected by 
mere few tens of kilorads, or even by megarads.

Ionizing radiation has no particular first order effect on such films.

There is much more I can write here, but won't.

--Tim May
"Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little 
bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now 
racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events 
following 9/11/2001

George Mason U. adopts a free-market philosophy to an unusual degree

2001-10-24 Thread Gabriel Rocha


http://washington.bcentral.com/washington/stories/2001/10/22/focus1.html

George Mason U. adopts a free-market philosophy to an unusual degree

   Eric Winig   Staff Reporter
   
   While the U.S. economy continues to sink, the majority of economists
   are scratching their heads, unable to divine why low interest rates
   and fiscal stimulus are failing to revive consumer spending. Most,
   however, predict those old fixes will eventually work their magic
   again.
   
   But to a small school of economists, the U.S. downturn is no mystery.
   Indeed, they were expecting such an event long before George W. Bush
   and Al Gore tangled in Florida last year.
   
   Credit-induced booms inevitably turn to busts, they say. Because
   people cannot forever spend more than they earn, such a situation will
   always lead eventually to a period of contraction in which debts must
   be worked off and savings rebuilt.
   
   Those economists belong to a school of thought known as "Austrian
   economics," founded in Austria in the late 19th century and introduced
   to America in the early 1900s. Austrian economics is basically a a
   strong adherence to free-market economics without government
   intervention.
   
   As many Austrian economists see it, the boom years of the late 1990s
   were not a "new era," nor a new economy, but instead a period when
   cheap credit and abundant capital convinced individuals and
   corporations to borrow like mad. Much of this money, meanwhile, was
   used for what turned out to be poor investments.
   
   Although stock prices have since come down significantly, the debts
   amassed from all that borrowing remain, choking off any economic
   recovery before it can begin. As far as most Austrians are concerned,
   such imbalances must be corrected before the economy can begin to grow
   anew.
   
   It sounds like a simple concept, yet to most who practice economics
   for a living Austrian economists are a fringe group. In large part
   that is because the Austrian argument against any government
   intervention in the market makes most economists -- and their vaunted
   economic forecasts -- irrelevant.
   
   In fact, the only doctoral program in the country with a dedicated
   Austrian program is at George Mason University in Fairfax.
   
Something of a mission

   The university's Program on Markets and Institutions -- part of the
   James M. Buchanan Center for Political Economy
   ([52]http://www.gmu.edu/jbc) -- is run by Karen Vaughn and Peter
   Boettke. And to those with Austrian leanings, GMU is akin to a port in
   a violent storm.
   
   "It's a place where you find people who think like you," says
   Veronique deRugy, a French native who crossed the pond to do
   post-doctoral work at GMU and now works for The Cato Institute
   ([53]http://www.cato.org), a D.C.-based public policy foundation with
   a libertarian philosophy.
   
   "I was one of the rare Austrian economists in France," she says, "so
   it seemed like a logical place to go."
   
   Most of the program's students are Americans -- unusual for a graduate
   school -- and were introduced to Austrian economics by a professor in
   college. While they don't expect to score a tenured position at
   Harvard, most students know exactly what they are getting into.
   
   "I don't expect to be teaching a class called `Austrian Economics,'"
   says Edward Stringham, who is finishing his doctorate at GMU.
   
   Stringham, like many students, hopes to go someplace where he can
   teach economics with a free-market bent, even if his class will be
   slightly different from the school's other offerings.
   
   In fact, there are many such professors out there, including a good
   number from GMU. And most view their task as something of a mission.
   
   "The task facing Austrians is to take our theories and get them out
   there," says Steven Horowitz, associate professor of economics at St.
   Lawrence University in New York and a former GMU student. "I can name
   a dozen schools that have tenured Austrian economists there. We're
   putting our roots down in academia."
   
A credibility hurdle

   Although Austrian economics can be defined loosely as a free-market
   ideology, some stress this is not an entirely accurate
   characterization.
   
   Austrian economics provides "a deep appreciation of the markets" that
   is critical for one to arrive at any economic conclusions, whether
   free-market or otherwise, Boettke says.
   
   Scott Beaulier, a second-year doctoral student, says, "If you want to
   criticize the mainstream, you've got to know it inside and out."
   
   One of the main hurdles for all Austrian economists is to establish
   credibility in a world that views their beliefs as suspect, at best.
   In truth, many economists hold some Austrian-style views, yet the mere
   mention of the Austrian school causes their eyes to glaze over.
   
   "No one is out there saying `I am now an Austrian,"

Re: lne down?

2001-10-24 Thread Eric Murray


On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 01:17:54PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Lne.com, at least based on what I saw, sent no outgoing messages from
> about 7 pm ET yesterday until 12 noon today.
 

We had a sendmail config error, and our network feed had a problem
with some hardware.



Eric

Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds

2001-10-24 Thread Sampo Syreeni


On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:

>Enough rads to sterilize?  Forget film.

What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these
flux levels?

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2

Re: lne down?


Lne.com, at least based on what I saw, sent no outgoing messages from
about 7 pm ET yesterday until 12 noon today.

-Declan


On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:38:29AM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> So what's wrong with lne.com -- majordomo responds to info
> cypherpunks, but nothing's coming thru since last night, and nothing on
> inet.com either except from toad and ssz?
> 
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> CyberShamanix
> Work 920-203-9633
> Home 920-233-5820
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )

2001-10-24 Thread mmotyka


David Honig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :
>
>Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate
>such antipathy.  
>
>The message of the WTC is this: regular ole' non-mil sheeple *are* held
>responsible for
>the actions of their government.  *Even* in the US.  What a concept.
>I suppose the sheeple in Dresden (etc.) know what that's like.  
>
>When the US populations' endocrines settle down, maybe they'll clue in to
>cause and effect.  Doubt it.  Getting involved in others' family feuds is just
>too much fun.
>
>What was it General Washington said about foreign entanglements?  I'd tattoo
>it onto every congressvermin's forehead.
>
Not that it isn't a good direction to head but I wonder what your
time-scale is for the conversion of a society that cannot survive
without an influx of inexpensive resources from foreign sources into
something less colonial? It has to be decades at a minimum.

In the meantime how do we deal with the Islamic Fundamentalist nutters?
Or our own Christian Fundamentalist nutters for that matter. I don't
want to hear about good and evil, Christian vs. Muslim, True faiths vs.
ersatz faiths or right vs. wrong. The crew that did the WTC is
dangerous. Those who are sending anthrax through the mails are
dangerous. Near-term solutions are called for. I would like to see
solutions that don't involve further trashing of our civil rights but I
have no compassion for the terrorists or freedom fighters or whatever
the hell you want to call them.

Mike

Market Competition for Security Measures

This debate is one of my favorites: security and the role of market 
forces. I regret not having the time/energy to tighten and polish this 
essay below. Some paragraphs are almost note-like. If you can handle 
John Young, you can handle this.

On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 04:23 AM, Ken Brown wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. 
>> If
>> as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to
>> secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and 
>> the
>> list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current
>> approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, 
>> self-justifying
>> security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if
>> you're an insect.
>
> So we get either the Caves of Steel   or the Naked Sun?
>
> I'd go for the former, being a city boy, but I guess T. May, H. Seaver &
> D. Honig  might prefer the hyper-exurbia of the latter.  One step from
> the Machine Stops - set not in the ultimate city but in the ultimate
> suburb.

A debate near and dear to my heart. City vs. suburb, armor vs. 
dispersion. Closely related to issues discussed often in the 
"survivalist" invisible college, during war scares, Y2K, and the current 
situation. Some of us have taken responsibility for our own security by 
living in less-likely, more defensible targets. Others live in crowded 
areas, but have private security arrangements. Gate burb-claves, high 
security condominiums, etc. Privately arranged, not ordered by Big 
Brother.

Cf. "Schelling points for terrorism" (key words, if not exact title), an 
item I wrote a few years ago about which targets are more likely to be 
hit than others. Clearly there are some places more likely for attacks 
than other places. And there are places downwind from nuclear reactors, 
downstream from dams, downherd from rampaging looters, and so on.

Federalizing or socializing the costs of security is like federalizing 
or socializing flood insurance: it takes the efficiencies of the market 
away and creates distortions.

What is being missed in all of the "rush to a security state" debate is 
the role of _private security arrangements_. Some examples, with a focus 
here on airport and airplane security:

* one size does _not_ fit all. Not all passengers are equally likely to 
be security risks. This is common sense, but the civil libertarians call 
it "racial profiling." True civil libertarians know that owners of 
property (e.g. United Airlines) are free to implement security 
procedures as they see fit. If ABX Airlines wants to implement full body 
searches of passengers and XYZ Airlines wants to implement no security 
at all, to first order this should be a market decision.

(There are interesting issues of "danger to others." Friedman the 
Younger covers this in his recent book on economics. "Law's Order." To 
wit, XYZ Airlines, with no security procedures, might be denied use of 
various airports, etc. A standard tort issue. The outcome is not 
precisely known, but a move toward "market competition for security 
measures" would flesh out many of these issues and outcomes.)

* travel associations, with members vetted by other members, even with 
security bonds. Think "web of trust," but much more formalized. A "know 
your passenger" scheme that has no government involvement, no coercion. 
Those who are not "vetted" (with biometric/unforgeable credentials) are 
free to wait in the cattle lines with the other cattle before boarding 
the jets operated by private players.

(Yes, this involves prying into private lives and habits, but no more so 
than corporations tend to do. For example, a 3-year employee of 
Cybergistics is "known" to many in his company. His basic interests and 
hobbies are known. More importantly, his coworkers and managers have a 
pretty good idea if he's a whacko, or a recently-arrived student from 
the Sudan who quotes the Koran. This company can "vouch" for one of its 
employees flying.)

* Private security screening. Just as there are multiple airlines, in a 
free society, why not multiple screening companies? (No carrier would be 
"required" to accept the work product of a screening company, naturally. 
All a matter of market negotiations.) Some security screening would be 
done with the aforementioned "vouching." Some might be cases where 
customers pay several bucks a head to pass through various sniffers.

Again, those who don't have arrangements with either vouchsafing 
entities or screening entities at the terminal can stand in the 2-hour 
"public" line. Akin in many ways to health care, with those having no 
other arrangments going to the public hospitals (not that I endorse 
taxpayer-subsidized public hospitals).

* Close tie-ins with insurance. After all, the nature of insurance is 
_betting_. And it's a much better bet that a middle-aged white professor 
from Kansas is less likely to be a h

Re: CDR: Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leapsand bounds)

On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

> The really weird thing about this whole anthrax scene is that all
> the spores seem to be of the Ames variety, which is a militarized anthrax

Shouldn't this read "non-militarized"?  The Ames strain is a standardized
research strain, used primarily (AFAIK) in veterinary research.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: CDR: Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds

On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>   Shit, so much for ordering mushroom spores by mail! Hopefully UPS
> and fedex won't follow suit.

you should be aware that FedX now carries a large (majority?) portion of
the US mails, under contract.  This is the reason that FedX drop boxes
were just put in your local post office.

 -- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: CDR: Cypherpunks idiots list

On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote:

[much "you suck" elided]

> Note: if you are an idiot, you may not like being informed
> of this fact. 

Glass houses...

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] < no doubt the source of the "low paying
   system administrator" poke.  Obviously,
   the All Knowing Nomen doesn't realize that
   I don't get paid for this one _at all_.

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: MATT DRUDGE // DRUDGE REPORT 2001®

2001-10-24 Thread John Young


Hillary was in good company: Richard Gere got booed for
suggesting tolerance not vengeance, and the NYC Fire 
Commissioner got booed the loudest by firemen for being
a publicity whore and Guiliani flunkey who has been trying
for years to cut back on firefighting services under Rudy's
orders. The Fire Commish is the one who agreed with
the Port Authority to lock the roof doors of the Twin Towers
to prevent access by suiciders and antenna thieves, and
lately hot-footing hamburgers.

Two hovering police choppers waited for people to come
to the roof, rescue hoists ready, but none made it past the 
locked doors -- a couple of the doorbangers cellphoned 
home to scream bloody murder.

The Fire Department's response: the point is moot, time
to move on to the future, recalling the exculpation of the 
Holocaust IBM Excuser-Investors.

This is not to say that fist fights between NYC police
and firemen at disaster sites over who is the bravest
in union negotiations is not to be cheered. Rudy alternates
caps emblazoned with NYFD and NYPD until contract
renewal time then he hops to W$.

Re: MATT DRUDGE // DRUDGE REPORT 2001®

2001-10-24 Thread Steve Schear


At 06:59 PM 10/23/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>http://www.drudgereport.com/matth2.htm

Hillary "smarm with out the charm" Clinton is finally being treated to the 
welcome she deserves.  If Ruddi hadn't dropped out or the Repos hadn't run 
such a weak candidate the voters would surely had sent her packing.  Next 
election should be interesting.

We recorded that VH-1 show and not unexpectedly she was not to be seen (the 
booing lasted her entire time on the stage).  Ah, ha!

steve

Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds

At 09:31 AM 10/23/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 04:23 AM 10/23/2001 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>>Irradiation equipment is being considered for mail processing, heard

Yep, nothing like placing canisters of radiological materials 
everywhere.  Mmmm, smell that?  Cobalt 60.  Smells like... victory.

If plastique can be stolen from military bases...

Why use Wurd?

"Riad S. Wahby" wrote:

> Strange that you would go to all the trouble.  I'll take emacs and
> LaTeX2e any day of the week.  Who needs WYSIWYG when you can make
> nicer-looking documents in less time using a Turing-complete document
> formatting / programming language?

Compatability with Wurd users. A lot of customers, especially suit
types, give you Word and Excel files (or, worse, PowerPoint, gag), even
when the app is being implemented on *NIX. A fair number of commercial
publications want articles and stories to be submitted as Word docs. And
sometimes when you're putting in a bid to a corp, they require the
proposal both as hardcopy and as Word and Excel files.

-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato

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Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds

At 09:31 AM 10/23/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Unexposed photographic film could have a real problem with this,
>depending on quite what they're using.

Enough rads to sterilize?  Forget film.

Interesting consequences for the evolution of radiation-resistant strains,
of course.
Except in kansas where evolution isn't allowed.

Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )

At 12:23 PM 10/24/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote:
>> 
>> Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. If
>> as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to
>> secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and the
>> list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current
>> approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, self-justifying
>> security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if
>> you're an insect.
>
>So we get either the Caves of Steel   or the Naked Sun?
>
>I'd go for the former, being a city boy, but I guess T. May, H. Seaver &
>D. Honig  might prefer the hyper-exurbia of the latter.  One step from
>the Machine Stops - set not in the ultimate city but in the ultimate
>suburb.

Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate
such antipathy.  

The message of the WTC is this: regular ole' non-mil sheeple *are* held
responsible for
the actions of their government.  *Even* in the US.  What a concept.
I suppose the sheeple in Dresden (etc.) know what that's like.  

When the US populations' endocrines settle down, maybe they'll clue in to
cause and effect.  Doubt it.  Getting involved in others' family feuds is just
too much fun.

What was it General Washington said about foreign entanglements?  I'd tattoo
it onto every congressvermin's forehead.

Re: Slashdot | Holographic Sonar Cryptography


At 07:24 AM 10/24/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:

Holographic Sonar Cryptography

Its no more 'cryptography' than the plans to use
small number of quanta to communicate 'securely'
between satellites, or using pressurized conduits
for your cables.  As 'secure' or 'untappable' fnord
communications it is moderately relevent though.

Re: CDR: Re: Cypherpunks idiots list

2001-10-24 Thread John W Noerenberg II


It 's always refreshing when someone posts something truly funny. 
The "idiots list" ranks right up there with Nixon's enemies list - 
except it's not as long...
-- 

john noerenberg
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   --
   While the belief we  have found the Answer can separate us
   and make us forget our humanity, it is the seeking that continues
   to bring us together, the makes and keeps us human.
   -- Daniel J. Boorstin, "The Seekers", 1998
   --

RE: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds)

2001-10-24 Thread Trei, Peter


> Tim May[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> 
> One minute spent searching on "anthrax ames" will disabuse the clueful 
> of the mistakes made above.
> 
> The Ames strain is _not_ "militarized anthrax."
> 
> --Tim May
> 
>From what I heard yesterday, the 'Ames strain' was, until 1996, mailed
to researchers the world over with few checks, for veterinary and medical 
research purposes. 

If so, it's presence in the envelopes tells us little about the source.

BTW: My understanding is that the USPS plans to irradiate mail
with UV light. This could kill spores on the outside, but won't 
affect film, seeds, or properly packed biological materials.

Peter Trei

lne down?

2001-10-24 Thread Harmon Seaver


So what's wrong with lne.com -- majordomo responds to info
cypherpunks, but nothing's coming thru since last night, and nothing on
inet.com either except from toad and ssz?

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds)


On Tuesday, October 23, 2001, at 04:02 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. 
>> If
>> as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to
>> secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and 
>> the
>> list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current
>> approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, 
>> self-justifying
>> security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if
>> you're an insect.
>>
>
> The really weird thing about this whole anthrax scene is that 
> all
> the spores seem to be of the Ames variety, which is a militarized 
> anthrax
> developed in Ames, Iowa. It really seems suspicious to me that these 
> are of
> domestic origin -- bin Ladin or whoever would be in all likelihood be 
> using
> a Russian variety or an Iraqi subset.

You are astoundingly misinformed, or are just plain lazy.

One minute spent searching on "anthrax ames" will disabuse the clueful 
of the mistakes made above.

The Ames strain is _not_ "militarized anthrax."

Get a fucking clue.

--Tim May
"Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little 
bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now 
racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events 
following 9/11/2001

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)


On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 12:56:02PM -0700, Giovanna Imbesi ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > Last night my friend and I stopped at a Venice club/bar.  At the door
> > they were doing the normal ID check, but then took my driver's license
> > and swiped it into a little Palm-like device...and all the info popped
> > up on the screen.  I was startled, amused and outraged all at the same
> > time.  My friend knows the new owners of the building and told me that
> > the owners had rented part of the upstairs space to a guy with a youth
> > marketing company, also coincidentally a long-time friend of his.
> > What are they doing with this information?  I've been wondering what
> > real implications a national ID card would present and here was a
> > clear example of potential abuse.  Is this even legal? Aren't they
> > authorized to check date-of-birth but no more?  Is it legal to retain
> > the data?  What data is stored in the magnetic stripe on a California
> > driver's license - name, address, DOB, license #, and signature?

A friend of mine recently informed me that he has access to a mag-strip
reader, and scanned several drivers' licenses (as well as Safeway cards
and other random credit-card like items.)

Most contained the information displayed on the front of the card, and/or
some seemingly random numbers (most likely, the ID numbers.)

California DL's have nothing interesting stored in that magstrip that
isn't on the front of the card. And no, the signature isn't reflected in
the magstrip.


-MW-

Re: Farm Out! (was Re: Retribution not enough)

2001-10-24 Thread Riad S. Wahby


Harmon Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>StarOffice is a lot better. Opensource, for one thing (although I
> know the Mac version was dropped and the OS X version not quite ready yet,
> but the linux version rocks), and doesn't get macroviri in any version.
> Again, why would you use something that ID's everything you write? But if
> you really want a great word processor, try XyWrite. Too bad the law firm
> that bought it dropped the ball on development, but the Notabene version is
> going strong, and is the ultimate wp AFAIC.  http://www.notabene.com/
> No mac version, or linux version, but I run Xywrite under VirtualPC on the
> Mac, and under VMware on linux.

Strange that you would go to all the trouble.  I'll take emacs and
LaTeX2e any day of the week.  Who needs WYSIWYG when you can make
nicer-looking documents in less time using a Turing-complete document
formatting / programming language?

--
Riad Wahby
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
MIT VI-2/A 2002

Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds