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Re: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)

[Anonymous]

James Donald writes:
> On 3 Jul 2002 at 10:48, xganon wrote:
> > Do you really think that DRM systems could eliminate cypherpunk 
> > applications?  Have you thought this through in detail?  Please 
> > expand on it.
>
> The system as specified is harmless, because it can run anyone's 
> code, and thus can run napster like applications (break once, copy 
> everywhere.)  It also has many useful and valuable privacy
> protecting applications.
>
> However it is a system and set of institutions that can validate 
> that properly authorized code is running, and thus with a 
> relatively minor change can ensure that ONLY properly authorized 
> code may be run -- (Hey, we will protect you from all viruses, and 
> all poorly written code, and all code that facilitates anti social 
> behavior.)

Okay, you are afraid that only "properly authorized" code will run.
Let's talk about one area: programming languages.

What about compilers?  Development systems?  No doubt you'll claim these
will be restricted.  They'll be like assault weapons.  Use a compiler,
go to jail.  This despite the fact that they are necessary tools for
technological progress today.

And what about interpreted languages?  Python, Ruby?  What about Perl?
Seriously: will they ban Perl?  Half the web depends on it!  How can
they keep people from running Perl?

Or do you think that only "properly authorized" Perl scripts will run?
That will never work.  Perl is tweaked all the time; the whole point
of using it is so that you can adapt your site functionality quickly
and easily.

The whole idea of outlawing programming languages and allowing people
to only run software on an approved list is utterly ridiculous.
Custom software is widely used throughout the world for all kinds of
mission critical activities.  Business would never allow the government
to forbid custom software.

People point to guns.  Computer languages aren't anything like guns.
You can ban handguns and it doesn't hurt anyone's business except a
few gun sellers.  Banning custom computer software will drive a stake
through the heart of business innovation and competition.

It's time for cypherpunks to remove their paranoia-colored glasses.
One apocalyptic prediction after another has been proven false.
Even post 9/11 the government floated one timid trial balloon about
possibly restricting crypto, and it was shot down in a hail of criticism
from all directions.

If they can't even ban crypto, you think they'll be able to ban Perl?
People who believe this are utterly disconnected from reality.

To the extent that people fear the TCPA and DRM because they think it will
take us down a path to the mythical state where only approved software
runs, they need to think again.  It can't be done.  Software is infinitely
malleable, and it is this property that makes it so crucially important
in business today.  The government can no more ban unapproved software
than it could require companies to forego the use of computers entirely.

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Re: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)

[Gabriel Rocha]

On Thu, Jul 04, at 01:26AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
| >I can't see a market defined as anything else than "private property and
| >voluntary exchange".
| 
| Then you really must be blind. Markets not based on private property or
| volition abound. The political process is one of them. Social control is
| another. Gift economies, like Open Source, are a third. One might claim
| most markets are based on something other than the above mentioned
| combination.

Property does not always consist of physical goods. Case in point would
be the encrypted bits. To use some of your examples, the polical process
involves votes, which are the property of the person casting the
ballots, likewise, at least in this country, ballots are cast
voluntarily. "Gift economics." Who coined that phrase? Don't take credit
for it, it is a stupid term. Time and effort are both considered
"property" to be used as deemed fit by the person possessing, in this
case, the skills to use them on an Open Source (the volunteer kind,
since you can't seem to grasp that there are Open Source projects that
make money.) 

| It does indeed. But unlike movies, Linux is a modular project. The kernel
| would exist in the absence of the GNU toolset, and vice versa. X would
| exist in the absence of UNIX, too. Each of the common desktop applications
| could very well have been coded on top of something else than Linux.

You're too ignorant to be replied to, I wish I hadn't wasted the time,
but I digress. I can't think many things more modular than movies,
except perhaps theatre, but movies have even more latitude. Actors can't
be switched? Sets can't be constructed out of "nothing" on a computer
screen? Movies can't be made with virtually no budget? Get a clue.

| Why is it that there's no Buzz for Linux? No decent installer? (Not one of
| them survives my hardware...) No workable Unicode support? A stable 64-bit
| filesystem? Why is nobody willing to guarantee kernel stability, even when
| paid big bucks? 'Cause the project is a gift, and only caters to a single
| kind of need: something an individual developer/company really needs and
| can afford to develop for him/itself, then losing little by exposing the
| code to others. Usefulness thinly spread over a considerable user
| community is completely forgotten.

As someone who actually helps people with unix problems and who is a
unix user, I want to let you know that you fall into the "stupid user"
category if you can't get a linux distro to install on your computer.
Linux is a new breed of project, if you want it and it really matters to
you, the argument goes that you would either do it, (if you're capable,
but you clearly aren't) or you pay someone else to do it. (this falls
into the heading of "put your money where your mouth is.") Throw in the
fact that "usefulness" is an entirely relative term, and you have a
really poor argument. 

| Well, what stupid people they are. I wouldn't go anywhere as far as
| gettimg myself killed for the common good. Even paying for software I can
| just copy is a stretch. What makes you think most people care enough to Do
| the Right Thing? What makes you think relying on Doing the Right Thing is
| a good idea? I mean, it's been tried before, and the consequences aren't
| worth a second look.

Well, here you show your ignorance of economics again. ( on this one
point, don't feel too bad, though you are ignorant, you're in a league
that is very well populated ) First off, not everyone is motivated by
financial gain. "profit" is not necessarily a financial thing, when
someone stops and helps you out when you have a flat, the odds are that
they are not expecting you to pay them for their help. When someone
helps you install linux on your computer, they aren't likely to expect
financial remuneration, specially if you go to one of the great many
Linux User Groups throughout this country and many others. Often the
economic argument made is that people do what is in their best interest.
The problem that arises is when people who aren't very bright (hint,
hint) assume that that means financial reward of some kind. People are
complex creatures, to presume that financial gain is the only motivation
for people is a tad naive.

| Indeed they are. So are ones assuming that anything not profitable to a
| single person couldn't be to a larger number of individuals. Like most
| things, private property rights and economic theory based solely on
| bilateral trade are a matter of continuous dispute. It's not that I don't
| consider them useful (I do; nowadays you could call me, too, a
| libertarian), but taking them as granted isn't the way to go, either.

Well, libertarians usually, though not always, go along with free
markets, which is not what you're advocating. Usually, any economic
theory that assumes that anything could have no value to anyone is
wrong. Basic relativity (in the subjective sense) states otherwise.
Bilateral trade is the only kind of exchange in a 

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Medicine 









 

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Lower Blood Pressure

Reduce Cholesterol

Regenerate Heart, Liver, Kidneys, & Lungs
 







Many people that start this
program between 35 to 40 years of age can  maintain
their appearance and current biological age for the next 10
to 20 years.  Persons age 50 and over
can actually reverse the effects of aging in many cases up to 10 to 20
years over a 3 to 6 month period.  Results will depend on your health,
living and eating habits and overall lifestyle. 
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Now (Only
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Pro GHR is recognized as the bridge to a much longer and healthier
life! Soon after you begin taking Pro GHR, you and others will start noticing
some profound changes in your appearance and overall health. Most importantly,
you'll feel terrific using Pro GHR.
After the age of twenty-one, your body slowly stops releasing an
important hormone known as HGH. Scientists have now discovered a relationship
between this decline of HGH in the body and aging. In fact, it is directly
responsible for many of the most common signs of growing old, such as wrinkling
of the skin, gray hair, decreased energy, and diminished sexual function. 
Fortunately, clinical evidence proves that by elevating human growth
hormone we can significantly stop -- and even reverse -- these symptoms
of aging! 
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available only to celebrities and the very wealthy. With the introduction
of Pro GHR, it is now affordable and free of any reported side-effects.
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in your body. If you are already one of our satisfied customers, congratulations!
May you live a long and healthy life with Pro GHR!
Science now recognizes aging as a disease that
can be reversed to a large degree by increasing HGH, Human Growth Hormone
to levels to where they were in your 20's. 
Human Growth Hormone (HGH) is
an endocrine hormone produced by your body abundantly in your youth and
starts falling off dramatically past age 30.  Other hormones that
decline with age are estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, melatonin and
DHEA.  Human Growth Hormone (HGH) regulates all these other hormone
levels within the body.



HGH is produced by the pituitary gland and
is responsible for all adolescent growth peaks. Produced abundantly in
our youth, human growth hormone decreases approximately 80% from ages 21
to 61. The pituitary gland can produce as much hgh in old age as in
youth if properly stimulated. We now have a product called Pro GHR
that will do the job.  By increasing hgh levels back to where they
were at age 25 you can reverse the effects of aging and actually look
and feel 10 to 20 years younger. 
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almost every cell in the body to regenerate
skin, hair, muscle, bones, heart, lungs, liver, and kidneys to their former
youthful levels. The immune system is revitalized. Osteoporosis can be
prevented, and heart attack and stroke risk factors are diminished. Aging
can be stopped...or even reversed.
Called cosmetic surgery in a bottle, HGH
helps smooth facial wrinkles, and the hydration, elasticity, thickness
and youthful contours of the skin are regained.  The
majority of reorders are from people that say that Pro GHR does wonders
for their skin. 
HGH is a powerful aphrodisiac that
increases libido, and sexuality/potency is restored in older persons. 
As a mood elevator, most people find a youthful sense of wellness and a
zest for life restored through the use of HGH. 
Healthy sleep patterns return,
providing the deepest levels of sleep for optimum well being.



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"The effects of six months
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Rudman, M.D., New England Journal of Medicine February 28, 2002












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Pro GHR will change the way you look and feel!

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“In over 40 years of practicing orthomolecular medicine,
I have never seen anything that approaches the positive results seen with
Pro GHR.”
- Dr. Don E. Johnson - President
of the American Anti- Aging Society
 
























What Customers
Are saying about
Pro GHR










Benefits of Pro GHR


Rejuvenate your body and mind 


Feel younger 


Look younger 


Lose weight


Reduce wrinkles 


Restore your sex drive 


Re

Twenty years in a bottle?

[edwardk]

Title: Grow biologically younger in 30 days or less!










“The most effective 
anti-aging therapy.”
Dr. Thierry Hertoghe, President
of the European Academy 
for Quality Life and Longevity
Medicine 









 

What if you could reverse
the effects of aging?
It's not science fiction anymore!




Here is what Pro GHR will do
for you:

Look Younger

Lose Weight

Restore Hair Growth

Reduce Wrinkles

Boost Sex Drive & Energy

Rebuild Bone & Muscle Mass

Lower Blood Pressure

Reduce Cholesterol

Regenerate Heart, Liver, Kidneys, & Lungs
 







Many people that start this
program between 35 to 40 years of age can  maintain
their appearance and current biological age for the next 10
to 20 years.  Persons age 50 and over
can actually reverse the effects of aging in many cases up to 10 to 20
years over a 3 to 6 month period.  Results will depend on your health,
living and eating habits and overall lifestyle. 
Order
Now (Only
$39.99, lowest price ever!)





Pro GHR is recognized as the bridge to a much longer and healthier
life! Soon after you begin taking Pro GHR, you and others will start noticing
some profound changes in your appearance and overall health. Most importantly,
you'll feel terrific using Pro GHR.
After the age of twenty-one, your body slowly stops releasing an
important hormone known as HGH. Scientists have now discovered a relationship
between this decline of HGH in the body and aging. In fact, it is directly
responsible for many of the most common signs of growing old, such as wrinkling
of the skin, gray hair, decreased energy, and diminished sexual function. 
Fortunately, clinical evidence proves that by elevating human growth
hormone we can significantly stop -- and even reverse -- these symptoms
of aging! 
Until now, HGH therapy was a costly and even dangerous treatment,
available only to celebrities and the very wealthy. With the introduction
of Pro GHR, it is now affordable and free of any reported side-effects.
For less than a fraction of the cost, Pro GHR naturally increases HGH levels
in your body. If you are already one of our satisfied customers, congratulations!
May you live a long and healthy life with Pro GHR!
Science now recognizes aging as a disease that
can be reversed to a large degree by increasing HGH, Human Growth Hormone
to levels to where they were in your 20's. 
Human Growth Hormone (HGH) is
an endocrine hormone produced by your body abundantly in your youth and
starts falling off dramatically past age 30.  Other hormones that
decline with age are estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, melatonin and
DHEA.  Human Growth Hormone (HGH) regulates all these other hormone
levels within the body.



HGH is produced by the pituitary gland and
is responsible for all adolescent growth peaks. Produced abundantly in
our youth, human growth hormone decreases approximately 80% from ages 21
to 61. The pituitary gland can produce as much hgh in old age as in
youth if properly stimulated. We now have a product called Pro GHR
that will do the job.  By increasing hgh levels back to where they
were at age 25 you can reverse the effects of aging and actually look
and feel 10 to 20 years younger. 
HGH affects
almost every cell in the body to regenerate
skin, hair, muscle, bones, heart, lungs, liver, and kidneys to their former
youthful levels. The immune system is revitalized. Osteoporosis can be
prevented, and heart attack and stroke risk factors are diminished. Aging
can be stopped...or even reversed.
Called cosmetic surgery in a bottle, HGH
helps smooth facial wrinkles, and the hydration, elasticity, thickness
and youthful contours of the skin are regained.  The
majority of reorders are from people that say that Pro GHR does wonders
for their skin. 
HGH is a powerful aphrodisiac that
increases libido, and sexuality/potency is restored in older persons. 
As a mood elevator, most people find a youthful sense of wellness and a
zest for life restored through the use of HGH. 
Healthy sleep patterns return,
providing the deepest levels of sleep for optimum well being.



Order
Now (Only
$39.99, lowest price ever!)





"The effects of six months
of human growth hormone on lean body mass and adipose-tissue were equivalent
in magnitude to the changes incurred during 10-20 years of aging." Daniel
Rudman, M.D., New England Journal of Medicine February 28, 2002












Doctor's Agree...
Pro GHR will change the way you look and feel!

“Hormone replacement therapy (Pro GHR) is the best
and most effective anti-aging medical therapy of the moment.”
- Dr. Thierry Hertoghe 
“In over 40 years of practicing orthomolecular medicine,
I have never seen anything that approaches the positive results seen with
Pro GHR.”
- Dr. Don E. Johnson - President
of the American Anti- Aging Society
 
























What Customers
Are saying about
Pro GHR










Benefits of Pro GHR


Rejuvenate your body and mind 


Feel younger 


Look younger 


Lose weight


Reduce wrinkles 


Restore your sex drive 


Re

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Re: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)

[jamesd]

--
On 4 Jul 2002 at 1:26, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> But try constructing an Independence Day without Will Smith. Or
> the special effects. Or the soundtrack. Or the distribution
> chain. Try guaranteeing that it arrives on schedule without
> making a loss. I think you will not be able to accomplish that
> with a volunteer effort. Try doing that tens of thousands of
> times a year (that's for all of what is currently covered by IP)
> and you're bound to fail. Unlike with Linux, the individual
> parts of most larger projects involving IP are of no use without
> the surrounding whole. Unlike Linux, many IP products aren't
> modular, reusable or decomposable, and so they can only exist if
> you can find a single source of financing for the whole project.
> In the case of modular projects, you can rely on overlapping 
> interests to fill in the voids, but most projects aren't like
> that. Especially if all that the creator gets is the
> ever-diminishing value of a single copy.

Increasingly the locations of big blockbuster movies exist inside
a computer, so a substantial reduction in finance would reduce,
rather than end the genre.

Again, If you offered the average guy the deal "Would you like on
demand access to all movies and television shows ever made, even
if it meant fewer and lower budget movie releases in future?", I
think most people would go for on demand access to everything. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 gWZBRbSRNDjGq8+KjaoqOPxgT5lZ2F9LX2ocm0bc
 2zgr4eTiKCozbQHScUv6yEqK35dT0WvEzOV/Rd8Fp

Re: Hayek was right. Twice.

[Sampo Syreeni]

On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Anonymous wrote:

>Ignoring market failures (such things as public goods and
>externalities), markets are efficient in the sense that they produce a
>Pareto optimal outcome.

Even if you neglect market failures in the usual sense, an outcome such as
everybody becoming a slave to a single individual is Pareto efficient --
you can't dissolve the situation without hurting the slave owner. Pareto
efficiency talks about allocation, not distribution, and so the latter can
be arbitrarily skewed in a Pareto efficient economy. Even to the point of
apparent absurdity. It's a different thing altogether, then, whether you
can approach such a dismal state of affairs via Pareto moves...

>A Pareto nonoptimal state, which is what you get with public goods, is a
>condition where you could redistribute wealth and resources and make
>every person happier or at least no less happy.

I don't think so. Instead I'd say that is Marshall efficiency in the
absence of transaction costs. The trouble is, you can never make everybody
happier by redistributing since someone will have to pay the cost. (Here
we of course assume that everybody wants more of everything.)

>So there is a redistribution which would make many people happier
>without making anyone less happy.

More to the point, there is a redistribution which would allow the total
amount voluntarily paid by a large number of people exceed the amount a
minority is ready to pay to avert the cost of the redistribution.
(Nowadays I'm thinking this isn't bad in itself, but that amplification of
this sort of pattern via returns to scale is.)

>Therefore it is clear that it is quite meaningful to investigate whether
>markets produce efficient or non-efficient outcomes in various
>situations. There is no tautology involved.

Quite. But on the other hand, public goods reasoning is also a very, very
dangerous thing. Consumption side externalities are my personal favorite.
Suppose there is a considerable personal benefit to rich people in seeing
the average bum spend his money in something respectable instead of
liquor. In this case, liquor consumption has a visible externality, and
optimal provision calls for institutions which more or less tax the rich
and use the proceeds to encourage the bum to straighten up. Now, that
doesn't sound *too* bad in itself, but when you apply the same reasoning
to the educational needs of the young and the societal benefits one would
expect of a highly educated younger generation...

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2

personal freedom vs copyright (Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)

[Adam Back]

There's been some recent discussion of ethics and markets relating to
copyright prompted by the Orwellian sounding overtones of the latest
Microsoft powergrab.

Seems about time to replay my periodic reminder that copyright is not
a black-and-white moral issue, it is merely a societal convention
which given public appetites for file sharing, and extreme difficulty
of preventing the public continuing apace (kazaa has some millions of
users online, with 2 peta-bytes of shared files and growing), it seems
to me that the natural evolution of laws etc would be for the laws
surrounding copyright be revoked as out-dated and no longer
applicable in an era of digital copying.  Without this adjustment
reality and content distribution laws are getting increasingly
out-of-synch, which is going to lead to some probable very undesirable
side effects in more laws further tilting the playing field in the
favor of the big media cartels, and starting to lead to very draconian
and Orwellian systems enforced under force of law.

Copyright is effectively a massive corporate welfare program to the
benefit of the media cartels at this point.  It's a business model
protection racket with the government providing the thugs at no
expense to the business.  No wonder the businesses that benfit from
this want to lobby to maintain this free enforcement corporate welfare
handout.  They get the financial benefits, and don't care about the
negative societal implications, such as described in Stallmann's
prescient essay on the long term implications of the coming brawl.

I don't see that the media cartels -- the main short-term benefactors
and lobbyists of the current and rapidly expanding copyright laws have
any moral right to have these conventions and corporate welfare
continue.  If society just said no, which it would appear of the
internet population they largely are, I think it likely we'd still
have movies, music etc., and that artists would continue to make money
and businesses associated with managing artists works would also make
money; the landscape might look a little different but so what.  Also,
even if one type of business model or content was no longer
economically supported, I can't see how that's a loss, or a bad thing
-- if there is no economic, coercion free model where a business can
provide service to end-users who want that service, then by definition
that service should not exist.

Many of the existing methods of capitalising on content remain without
copyright:

- convenience (if copies on physical media are competitively priced vs
  peoples time to source and download), 
- advertising (compete for placing in order of user preferred downloads)
- live events
- higher spec projection equipment (movie theatre vs home viewing)
- branding - reliability, certified quality (guarantees of download
  speed, bit-rate, resolution audio quality)

So I say scrap copyright now, and let the market sort out which
business models and distribution comapnies surive which new business
models emerge, and then we can avoid the Orwellian power-grab which
will have many freedom destroying and negative societal costs.

Adam
--
http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/

Re: Hayek was right. Twice.

[Sampo Syreeni]

On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

>For me, this is all about Coase's theorem, transaction cost, Coase's
>observation that you can't have a market without property,

Quite. Coase's reasoning demonstrated that any initial allocation of
property rights is equivalent (both in the allocative and distributive
senses) when transaction costs amount to nil. So, if we look at the
distribution side of the information industry, you're absolutely right.
The smaller the transaction costs the better -- rivalry applies to any
particular copy, as it does to services involved disseminating the bits.
Any trades required are bilateral, competition does its job and everything
is just dandy.

But if we look at the creation end, that's a different story entirely.
Anyone eventually receiving a copy will benefit roughly equally from the
efforts of the artist/author. If copying and distribution are exceedingly
cheap, as we'd expect them to be in the future, the number of people for
whom acquiring the information would be profitable easily grows to the
tens or hundreds of millions. Since any copy released will be widely
disseminated, the deal between the original author and the public with an
interest in his work will be multilateral in the extreme. It cannot be
reduced into a bunch of bilateral trades as in the case of private
commerce. This means that we get sizable transaction costs. IP is there to
force the economy into something approximating the conventional, material
one, and so internalize externality otherwise generated. (No, it does not
solve the problem. But limited term copyright could still strike a
near-optimal bargain.)

If something, Coase's original point is behind copyright, not its
antithesis. That's why I rarely use economic reasoning to argue for IP
abolition, even when I consider IP a bad idea.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2

Re: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?

[Tim May]

On Wednesday, July 3, 2002, at 08:50  AM, Michael Motyka wrote:
> IIRC many of the wealthy were quick enough to ship huge amounts of gold
> to Europe. That is one reason I have heard given that the St Gauden's
> $20 gold pices of that era are possibly poor investments - there is a
> reservoir of them overseas.

But St. Gaudens coins were readily available during the time when gold 
ownership was banned.

(Let me be overly careful: They were purchasable from coin stores and 
mail order places in the mid-1960s. I know because I used to see them 
listed at a price I clearly remember: $49.50.)

I assume they did not just suddenly become available at the time I 
happened to be paying attention, and that they were purchasable in 1960, 
1950, 1940, etc. The exemption for numismatic value, of course.

Owning coins for collector, or numismatic, value, is of course a 
different kettle of fish than owning gold as bullion.




--Tim May
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, 
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance 
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give 
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, 
pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, 
die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." --Robert A. Heinlein

Re: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)

[xganon]

Ryan Lackey writes:

> I consider DRM systems (even the not-secure, not-mandated versions)
> evil due to the high likelyhood they will be used as technical
> building blocks upon which to deploy mandated, draconian DRM systems.
> DRM systems inevitably slide toward being more mandated, and more draconian.
>
> DRM-capable TCPA-type systems are evil by the same argument, even if
> not used for DRM.
>
> The primary reason they are evil is not the stated goal of DRM systems
> (copy protection in various forms), but the ease with which they could
> be used to eliminate cypherpunk applications.

Do you really think that DRM systems could eliminate cypherpunk
applications?  Have you thought this through in detail?  Please expand
on it.

How many kinds of software would have to be eliminated for this to
be true?  What constitute "cypherpunk applications"?  In how many forms
could they be written and distributed?

What kind of world would be necessary for DRM systems to actually be in
use for the purpose of eliminating cypherpunk applications?

Re: Hayek was right. Twice.

[Michael Motyka]

"Marcel Popescu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :
>
>From: "Sampo Syreeni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> But when the yield does not go to the one who created
>> the master copy, why should anyone create anything, anymore? (Or, more
>> realistically, why should people create at an efficient level?)
>
>There's no such thing as "efficient level", except in the tautology "the
>market outcome is always efficient". We both created stuff we didn't expect
>to be paid for - these emails. Why - this is for psychology to discover.
>
>Mark
>
The why is easy - for some reason you think that strutting around in
this barnyard is going to get you more chicas. 

Mike

Re: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?

[Michael Motyka]

Anonymous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

>> Just curious, but what was the rationale under which private posession
>> of gold was made illegal in the US?  It boggles the mind...
>
>
>
>However doing a straight devaluation was politically unacceptable
>at the time.  Because the dollar was pegged to gold, devaluing the
>dollar meant in effect increasing the value of gold in terms of dollars.
>This would represent a tremendous windfall to holders of gold.  And gold,
>by and large, is owned by the rich.
>
>
>
>By eliminating private gold ownership, Roosevelt was able to take a
>necessary step to invigorate the economy, devaluing the dollar, while
>reducing the risk of a civil war.  The rich protested, of course, but
>in practice they went along with the measure as they were terrified
>of a workers' revolution.
>
>
>

IIRC many of the wealthy were quick enough to ship huge amounts of gold
to Europe. That is one reason I have heard given that the St Gauden's
$20 gold pices of that era are possibly poor investments - there is a
reservoir of them overseas.

Mike

[OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?

[James A. Donald]

--
On 3 Jul 2002 at 2:36, Anonymous wrote:
> At the time, the U.S. faced a significant chance of a 
> Communist/Socialist revolution such as had been seen in several 
> other countries.  Class warfare was widespread,

The high point of support for socialism among the masses in the US 
was the 1870s, give or take a couple of decades.

By 1900 socialists around the world had given up all hope of 
genuinely revolutionary seizure of power, and were pursuing 
conspiratorial paths.

The 1930s was the high point of support for socialism among the 
intellectuals, the privileged, and the elite.  Their efforts to 
foist their preferences on the American masses met with resounding 
hostility and reluctance.  Not only was there no danger of a 
socialist revolution, in the US or anywhere else, but in the US 
the leadership's attempts to force socialism down peoples throats 
met stubborn resistance.

There was more mass support for socialism in other countries, but 
no socialist revolutions in those countries, nor any danger of 
such revolt.  There were socialist coups, and conspiratorial 
seizures of power by socialists in other countries. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 3x+jv+MnH33X3HSDdYMeLIgT55+H4ekUhpOMDJDS
 2vKGDwf7SNzlVqX8Hi5qcbp51h1c6SSx0sz6gRDeI

Re: Hayek was right. Twice.

[Marcel Popescu]

From: "Sampo Syreeni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> But when the yield does not go to the one who created
> the master copy, why should anyone create anything, anymore? (Or, more
> realistically, why should people create at an efficient level?)

There's no such thing as "efficient level", except in the tautology "the
market outcome is always efficient". We both created stuff we didn't expect
to be paid for - these emails. Why - this is for psychology to discover.

Mark

data mining for moles

[Major Variola (ret)]

http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,41206,00.html

   According to former and current DEA,
  military, and State Department officials,
  the cartel had assembled a database that
  contained both the office and residential
  telephone numbers of U.S. diplomats and
  agents based in Colombia, along with the entire call
log for the
  phone company in Cali, which was leaked by employees
of the
  utility. The mainframe was loaded with custom-written
data-mining
  software. It cross-referenced the Cali phone
exchange's traffic with
  the phone numbers of American personnel and Colombian
  intelligence and law enforcement officials. The
computer was
  essentially conducting a perpetual internal mole-hunt
of the cartel's
  organizational chart. "They could correlate phone
numbers,
  personalities, locations -- any way you want to cut
it," says the
  former director of a law enforcement agency.
"Santacruz could see
  if any of his lieutenants were spilling the beans."

The central feature of
  the facility was a $1.5 million IBM AS400
  mainframe, the kind once used by banks,
  networked with half a dozen terminals and
  monitors.

Re: Hayek was right. Twice.

[R. A. Hettinga]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At 12:41 PM +0300 on 7/3/02, Sampo Syreeni wrote:


> No. It is the case with the digitized version, but not the work.

What is a CD but a copy of a work, Sampo? Record companies sell
*records*, right?

A copy on my hard drive is *my* copy. I can, in fact, sell you a copy
of my copy (I love recursion), but then the space, occupied by
your copy, is *your* copy. It's rival.

> Did this thread really start with something taken from LMD? The
> list really *has* stooped to an all-time low...

:-). I'm not the yokel who started this fight quoting LMD, I'm just
the guy who's finishing it...

The non-rival, non-excludable thing is standard academic econ-talk,
though. I was jerking his chain a bit about quoting a eurosocialist
rag, like you seem to be doing. The part about it not being
applicable is close to being right, thought. Or at least that even if
one applies the non-rival, non-excludable double negative nonsense
one still gets the right answer with private transactions involving
all digital goods and services.

> The point in copyright wars is about incentives to authors vs. the
> right to copy privately, not about the ease of copying. Sure,
> microtransactions are a possibility. But when the yield does not go
> to the one who created the master copy, why should anyone create
> anything, anymore? (Or, more realistically, why should people
> create at an efficient level?)

For me, this is all about Coase's theorem, transaction cost, Coase's
observation that you can't have a market without property, and the
fact that, of course, if transaction costs were low enough, if we had
a working bearer cash economy on the net, for instance, the
definition of property would not be a legal one involving
"intellectual property", but a physical one, about encrypted bits,
protected not with laws, but with strong financial cryptography
protocols.


Cheers,
RAH



-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 7.5

iQA/AwUBPSL1u8PxH8jf3ohaEQK0JQCgvEOEsTIGXNOzEWgcvsO4eUmzjkAAoPAC
1tHGCoKRd/zJM4vj+6ihuKoL
=4uQY
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Re: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?

[Ian Grigg]

> From: Anonymous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> > Just curious, but what was the rationale under which private posession
> > of gold was made illegal in the US?  It boggles the mind...
> 
> Roosevelt needed to in effect devalue the dollar during the Great
> Depression.  In a deflationary depression, this acts as an inflationary
> force to cancel the negative effects of the deflation.  Even libertarian
> monetarists such as Milton Friedman agree that this is the proper approach
> when dealing with a depression.  Roosevelt did not have the advantage
> of modern economics and he made many economic mistakes which prolonged
> the depression, but devaluing the dollar was not one of them.
>
> However doing a straight devaluation was politically unacceptable
> at the time.  Because the dollar was pegged to gold, devaluing the
> dollar meant in effect increasing the value of gold in terms of dollars.
> This would represent a tremendous windfall to holders of gold.  And gold,
> by and large, is owned by the rich.
> 
> At the time, the U.S. faced a significant chance of a Communist/Socialist
> revolution such as had been seen in several other countries.  Class
> warfare was widespread, with armed violence between workers and management
> a common occurance.  Transferring a huge bounty into the hands of the
> rich would have inflamed the working class and risked plunging the
> country into chaos and revolution.
> 
> By eliminating private gold ownership, Roosevelt was able to take a
> necessary step to invigorate the economy, devaluing the dollar, while
> reducing the risk of a civil war.  The rich protested, of course, but
> in practice they went along with the measure as they were terrified
> of a workers' revolution.
> 
> Looking back, since there was, in fact, no revolution, it is easy to
> forget today how perilous the state of the country was in those times.
> For all those who curse Roosevelt's name, the U.S. at least ended up
> the decade in better shape than many countries, and things could have
> been far worse.  Americans could be living in a People's Republic today.
> Confiscating gold was clearly the lesser of the evils.

One is troubled by this rather excellent post by
anonymous.

I accept at face value the comments made, and they
certainly seem to match the facts and circumstances
of the times (the arisal of Keynsianism from the
roots of the Great Depression).

What troubles me is the pressumption of modern
economics somehow presenting an advantage.  What
would that advantage be?

And if that advantage would somehow ease the pain
of the Great Depression, or not have started it in
the first place, why is it that the IMF (claimed by
some to be a body that dispenses American economic
thought and American loans), advised the Argentinian
government to peg the peso, and gave them lots of
loans to keep it there?

Argentina is now in its 1st Great Depression of this
century, and it's pretty clear that the IMF and the
fixed exchange rate together were responsible as the
external events.

The only way I can reconcile this is to negate the
advantage or benefit conferred by modern economics?

Any other takes?

-- 
iang

[±¤°í]¿µÈ­ ´Ù¿î·Îµå ¾Ë¸ÍÀÌ ºñµð¿À Ç÷¹À̾î

[¾Ë¸ÍÀÌ°ü¸®ÀÚ]

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Re: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?

[Marcel Popescu]

From: "Anonymous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Even libertarian
> monetarists such as Milton Friedman agree that this is the proper approach
> when dealing with a depression.

Murray Rothbard's law number 17: all economists specialize in the field they
suck most. Friedman is good in many areas, but he sucks in monetary stuff,
so obviously he specialized in it. There is NOTHING libertarian in
Friedman's ideas about money.

> At the time, the U.S. faced a significant chance of a Communist/Socialist
> revolution such as had been seen in several other countries.  Class
> warfare was widespread, with armed violence between workers and management
> a common occurance.  Transferring a huge bounty into the hands of the
> rich would have inflamed the working class and risked plunging the
> country into chaos and revolution.

Oh, a socialist... ok, that's why you like Friedman when he speaks about
money.

> Confiscating gold was clearly the lesser of the evils.

ROTFL...

Mark

Re: Hayek was right. Twice.

[Sampo Syreeni]

On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

>"Rival" means that only one person can own something at once. That,
>technically, is the case with anything digitable.

No. It is the case with the digitized version, but not the work. Nobody
would argue that actual copies aren't normal, private goods. One time,
when copying was difficult, there was even a one-to-few correspondence
between works and copies. Today that isn't the case. Replication and
creation are now neatly separable, and benefits of scale in the former do
not translate to returns to the latter. Copies are still a private good,
as ever, but works are becoming increasingly pure public goods. According
to orthodox public goods theory, that might well be a problem.

In practice the issue is muddled beyond belief, of course.

>Excludable, if you want to go back to your eurosocialst wanker Le Monde
>Diplomatique definition, means that when you've used it, it's useless to
>anyone else.

Did this thread really start with something taken from LMD? The list
really *has* stooped to an all-time low...

>It's price, however, is very, very, small, however, but just because
>it's cheap doesn't mean that you can't do transactions that small.

The point in copyright wars is about incentives to authors vs. the right
to copy privately, not about the ease of copying. Sure, microtransactions
are a possibility. But when the yield does not go to the one who created
the master copy, why should anyone create anything, anymore? (Or, more
realistically, why should people create at an efficient level?)

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2

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