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Re: Engineers in U.S. vs. India

[Steve Furlong]

On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 18:36, Steve Mynott wrote:
> Jim Dixon wrote:

> > The term 'software engineer' is becoming less common in the States these
> > days.  I have watched the job title wax and wane for more than twenty
> > five years.  I think that it was most fashionable in the early 1980s.
> 
> Any Americans care to comment on this?

In the mid-1980s, the US Department of Defense, at the time the largest
software customer in the world, told its vendors that 10% (I think) of
their software development staff must be software engineers. Along came
the HR fairies with their magic wands and poof! almost all software
developers were software engineers.

The SE job title has ebbed and flowed, as Jim said. It means little
other than "programmer" in the US. As Jim said in another message,
almost all states restrict the use of the term "engineer" to those who
are licensed. But most don't really enforce that rule, so HR departments
are free to give their programming staff the glorious title. However,
contrary to Jim's statement, Texas does license software engineers. (See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering .) I don't know if any
other states license SEs.


Regards,
SRF, degreed Software Engineer (hooray, me)

Re: Engineers in U.S. vs. India

[Steve Mynott]

Jim Dixon wrote:

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Steve Mynott wrote:


The term 'engineer' is far from precise; in the UK most people who work
with tools can be called engineers but people who write software generally
are NOT called engineers. There are further complications: for example, in
I have had jobs as a "software engineer" in the UK and since the dot com
bubble this hasn't been an uncommon job title.


Go to Jobserve and count.  I did, about a year ago.  I found 612
references in a 5-day period, as compared with 1651 for Java and 1889
for C++.
What to call people who write software is problematic.

"software engineer" is a job title like "programmer" or "developer" 
(often with senior or junior as a prefix).  Senior meaning that you get 
paid a little more since you have more experience rather than being a 
manager. I never had a programming job where the language was specified 
in the title.  I am talking here of permanent work rather than contract 
style.

Searching on jobserve (the main UK IT job site) I get

3123 hits for developer
2009 engineer
806 software developer
803 software engineer
766 programmer
201 software programmer
So programmer is the unpopular job title not engineer, probably because 
it seems to have a bit of an outdated 1970s punched and magnetic tape 
type reputation.

My point is not that there are no software engineers in the world, but
that the term "engineer" is often used quite loosely and means vastly
different things in different places.
Agreed

The term 'software engineer' is becoming less common in the States these
days.  I have watched the job title wax and wane for more than twenty
five years.  I think that it was most fashionable in the early 1980s.
Any Americans care to comment on this?

You don't understand.  I have never ever heard of any school in the UK or
the United States, no matter how bad, where degrees are routinely and
rather openly sold, or where riots on campus, usually in response to
examinations, frequently involve lethal weapons and deaths.
"Unbelievably bad" means just that.
I think people can still get a good education even in unstable and 
poorer nations.  You don't need to spend many dollars to run Linux and 
print out downloaded PDFs. There were campus deaths in the American and 
French student riots of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Oxford and 
Cambridge Universities openly sell masters degrees.

The examinations systems in many British influenced countries in the 
east resemble 1950s UK ones in their high standards and there doesn't 
seem to be much doubt that British examinations have been dumbed down 
since the 1980s to improve pass percentages.  It doesn't seem to me 
likely a doctor's son in Bangalore is automatically going to get a worse 
education than the average street kid in South Central LA or Hackney.

The Asperger enhanced asian engineering, physics and maths geeks shut in 
their rooms with an internet link won't be the ones running around 
killing people.  They are more likely to be hacking NASA via abuse of 
their local inband trunk signaling and gaining an excellent education in 
C buffers, UNIX and international telecommunications systems.  And 
hopefully subscribing to this list and reading Murray Rothbard.

I am not India-bashing.  I just think that the people who are so concerned
about the threat of India wiping out the US software industry are uhm
let's say a bit unrealistic.  It might be a concern 30 years from now,
although I am skeptical even of that.
Agreed.  They will get a bigger slice of a bigger pie but still a 
smaller serving than the US.

I remember the Americans being scared about the "Japanese Are Coming 
With Their Expert Systems" hype of the early 1980s.  And they never came 
despite many yen being wasted by MITI.  The only currently popular 
Japanese computer language Ruby is pretty much a copy of a European one 
(python).

--
1024/D9C69DF9 Steve Mynott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Engineers in U.S. vs. India

[Jim Dixon]

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Steve Mynott wrote:

> > The term 'engineer' is far from precise; in the UK most people who work
> > with tools can be called engineers but people who write software generally
> > are NOT called engineers. There are further complications: for example, in
>
> I have had jobs as a "software engineer" in the UK and since the dot com
> bubble this hasn't been an uncommon job title.

Go to Jobserve and count.  I did, about a year ago.  I found 612
references in a 5-day period, as compared with 1651 for Java and 1889
for C++.

My point is not that there are no software engineers in the world, but
that the term "engineer" is often used quite loosely and means vastly
different things in different places.

> The UK tends to follow US fashions very closely importing in titles like
> CEO and CTO and the term "software engineer" is no different.

The term 'software engineer' is becoming less common in the States these
days.  I have watched the job title wax and wane for more than twenty
five years.  I think that it was most fashionable in the early 1980s.

If it isn't clear, I usually describe myself as a software engineer. I
belong to the ACM (www.acm.org) and follow their articles discussing
software engineering as a profession with a mild interest.

> As for your comments that "my impression is that India has a few
> excellent institutions and a vast number of unbelievably bad schools" I
> suspect this is true but applies equally to the UK and USA and indeed
> any country with a university system.  Neither is graduating from a top
> engineering school such as Stanford any automatic guarantee of quality
> as anyone who has worked with these people knows.

You don't understand.  I have never ever heard of any school in the UK or
the United States, no matter how bad, where degrees are routinely and
rather openly sold, or where riots on campus, usually in response to
examinations, frequently involve lethal weapons and deaths.
"Unbelievably bad" means just that.

I have visited India many times and have spent at least two years there in
total.  I went there of my own free will, travelling.  And I spent enough
time in various places (at least several months each in Calcutta, Delhi,
Bombay, Madras, as well as many smaller and less well-known places) to
have a decent overall understanding of the country.

> India has an excellent tradition in mathematics and some of the best
> software engineers I have worked with in the UK have been Indian
> graduates, since it's the most enterprising and highly qualified ones
> which tend to emigrate.

India tends to stunning extremes.  Many amazingly good mathematicians have
come out of India; my experience is that this is strongly regional, with
the best coming from Bengal in the north and then the Bangalore/
Madras/north of there region in the southeast.

But you have to see those extremes. There is nothing like stepping out of
a Calcutta coffee house, after having a wonderfully intelligent
conversation, into the appalling streets.  I think that any attempt to
describe life in Calcutta as I knew it would be met with disbelief.  Go
there.  Don't stay in a tourist hotel. It takes at least a few weeks for
your eyes to adjust, for you to take in just how very very different the
subcontinent is.  Then you might go a little mad and run away, or you
might just decide that you like the place ;-)

> O Reilly Associates recognise the importance of the Indian market by
> suppplying special low priced editions of their books to the Indian
> market.  They are occasionally available as "grey imports" in the UK.

Yes.  This has been going on for a long long time.  Most major publishers
do it.  I used to buy cheap technical books myself in India, Hong Kong,
Japan, etc.  Although they tend to be out of date, there are often very
good buys.  I still have some on my shelves.

I am not India-bashing.  I just think that the people who are so concerned
about the threat of India wiping out the US software industry are uhm
let's say a bit unrealistic.  It might be a concern 30 years from now,
although I am skeptical even of that.

--
Jim Dixon  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   tel +44 117 982 0786  mobile +44 797 373 7881
http://jxcl.sourceforge.net   Java unit test coverage
http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure

Re: Engineers in U.S. vs. India

[Steve Mynott]

Jim Dixon wrote:

The term 'engineer' is far from precise; in the UK most people who work
with tools can be called engineers but people who write software generally
are NOT called engineers. There are further complications: for example, in
I have had jobs as a "software engineer" in the UK and since the dot com 
bubble this hasn't been an uncommon job title.

The UK tends to follow US fashions very closely importing in titles like 
CEO and CTO and the term "software engineer" is no different.

As for your comments that "my impression is that India has a few 
excellent institutions and a vast number of unbelievably bad schools" I 
suspect this is true but applies equally to the UK and USA and indeed 
any country with a university system.  Neither is graduating from a top 
engineering school such as Stanford any automatic guarantee of quality 
as anyone who has worked with these people knows.

India has an excellent tradition in mathematics and some of the best 
software engineers I have worked with in the UK have been Indian 
graduates, since it's the most enterprising and highly qualified ones 
which tend to emigrate.

O Reilly Associates recognise the importance of the Indian market by 
suppplying special low priced editions of their books to the Indian 
market.  They are occasionally available as "grey imports" in the UK.

--
1024/D9C69DF9 Steve Mynott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Engineers in U.S. vs. India

[Jim Dixon]

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Sarad AV wrote:

> > "Today, Bangalore stands ahead of Bay Area, San
> > Francisco and California,
> > with a lead of 20,000 techies, while employing a
> > total number of 1.5 lakh
> > engineers."
>
> I live in bangalore,those figures are correct.

Meaning that 150,000 engineers are employed in Bangalore?  Does this
include software engineers, HTML coders, programmers, computer scientists?
Does it include say railway engineers, truck mechanics, the guy who fixes
your air conditioning?

The term 'engineer' is far from precise; in the UK most people who work
with tools can be called engineers but people who write software generally
are NOT called engineers. There are further complications: for example, in
certain parts of the United States (Texas comes to mind), you cannot
describe yourself as an engineer without being certified as such by the
state.  You can be a mechanical or civil engineer, but not a software
engineer, because there is no relevant test.  One of the consequences of
this is that Texas vastly undercounts its engineers.

The civil/mechanical/etc engineers have lobbied successfully for such
restrictions on the use of the job title in other states (and Canada?).
There are frequent articles in ACM journals complaining about this; people
who have been software engineers for decades are breaking the law if they
describe themselves as such in Texas.

In the same vein, what does 'techie' mean in the article quoted?  When the
article says that Bangalore has a lead of 20,000 techies over California,
exactly what is this supposed to mean?

For years Japan led the world in the use of robots because they counted as
robots devices that were not counted as such in the USA and Europe, simple
pick-and-place arms. I suspect that much the same thing is going on here.

--
Jim Dixon  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   tel +44 117 982 0786  mobile +44 797 373 7881
http://jxcl.sourceforge.net   Java unit test coverage
http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure

Re: Engineers in U.S. vs. India

[Sarad AV]

 
> "Today, Bangalore stands ahead of Bay Area, San
> Francisco and California,
> with a lead of 20,000 techies, while employing a
> total number of 1.5 lakh
> engineers."

I live in bangalore,those figures are correct.


> However, the educational system has to be seen to be
> fully appreciated.
> I spent several months in Calcutta over a couple of
> years.  During at
> least one visit there were riots at the university;
> the papers reported
> bodies hanging from trees.  Many had been shot. 
> Same story: students
> protested because they were stopped from openly
> exchanging papers,
> consulting books, or just chatting with friends
> during examinations.

Lets be a little fair here, just copying and just
chatting during exams are malpractices, the students
have much political support and relegious support in
these places.
As for openly consulting books durin exam,most of the
universities don't conduct open book exams,except may
be at the iit's.Its a malpractice,elsewhere.

The university sends special squads appointed by the
university itself to check exam malpractices, how ever
if the students counter the squad with sickles and
knifes and swords-it becomes a common practice that
the invigilators get armed police protection. So,in a
riot when the students are out to kill,very little can
be done to protect themselves and people sadly,get
killed.

There are a few sensitive spots in india but where I
am and in South India,we had no such encounters as
yet.

 
> Such education as occurred largely involved rote
> learning, often based
> on texts many years out of date.

We learn the fundamentals of enginnering,the basic
books of engg. are always the same,we may miss a few
updates and advances,thats all.

> My impression is that India has a few excellent
> institutions and a vast
> number of unbelievably bad schools.  

We dont the have resources like you have in the U.S.
 
Sarath.

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