Re: How to Stop Junk E-Mail: Charge for the Stamp
And how do you fund all this, make it attain an economic life of its own? That's the big problem with all micropayment schemes. They sound good until you try to work the business plan, then they prove themselves impossible because it costs 2c to handle each penny. And more if issues such as collections and enforcement (e.g., against frauds) is taken into account. This is why, for example, we have a postal system which manages postage, rather than some scheme whereby every paper mail recipient charges every paper mail sender etc etc etc. On February 16, 2005 at 12:38 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tyler Durden) wrote: > Wrong. We already solved this problem on Cypherpunks a while back. > > A spammer will have to pay to send you spam, trusted emails do not. You'll > have a settable Spam-barrier which determines how much a spammer has to pay > in order to lob spam over your barrier (you can set it to 'infinite' of > course). > > A new, non-spam mailer can request that their payment be returned upon > receipt, but they'll have to include the payment unless you were expecting > them. > > This way, the only 3rd parties are those that validate the micropayments. > > -TD > > >From: Barry Shein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "R.A. Hettinga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >CC: cryptography@metzdowd.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: How to Stop Junk E-Mail: Charge for the Stamp > >Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:29:05 -0500 > > > >Oh no, the idiotic penny black idea rides again. > > > >Like the movie "War Games" when a young Matthew Broderick saves the > >world by causing the WOPR computer to be distracted into playing > >itself tic-tac-toe rather than launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike. > > > >It was a MOVIE, made in 1983 nonetheless, get over it. > > > >More seriously, what attracts people to this penny black idea is that > >they realize that the only thing which will stop spammers is to > >interject some sort of economic constraint. The obvious constraint > >would be something like stamps since that's a usage fee. > > > >But the proposer (and his/her/its audience) always hates the idea of > >paying postage for their own email, no, no, there must be a solution > >which performs that economic miracle of only charging for the behavior > >I don't like! An economic Maxwell's demon! > > > >So, just like the terminal seeking laetrile shots or healing waters, > >they turn to not even half-baked ideas such as penny black. Don't > >charge you, don't charge me, charge that fellow behind the tree! > > > >Oh well. > > > >Eventually email will just collapse (as it's doing) and the RBOCs et > >al will inherit it and we'll all be paying 15c per message like their > >SMS services. > > > >I know, we'll work around it. Of course by then they'll have a > >multi-billion dollar messaging business to make sure your attempts to > >by-step it are outlawed and punished. Consider what's going on with > >the music-sharing world, as another multi-billion dollar business > >people thought they could just defy with anonymous peer-to-peer > >services... > > > >The point: I think the time is long past due to "grow up" on this > >issue and accept that some sort of limited, reasonable-usage-free, > >postage system is necessary to prevent collapse into monopoly. > > > >-- > > -Barry Shein > > > >Software Tool & Die| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | > >http://www.TheWorld.com > >Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202| Login: 617-739-WRLD > >The World | Public Access Internet | Since 1989 *oo* > -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202| Login: 617-739-WRLD The World | Public Access Internet | Since 1989 *oo*
Re: How to Stop Junk E-Mail: Charge for the Stamp
Bingo, that's the whole point, spam doesn't get "fixed" until there's a robust economics available to fix it. So long as it's treated merely an annoyance or security flaw there won't be enough economic backpressure. On February 16, 2005 at 18:38 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Gutmann) wrote: > Barry Shein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > >Eventually email will just collapse (as it's doing) and the RBOCs et al will > >inherit it and we'll all be paying 15c per message like their SMS services. > > And the spammers will be using everyone else's PC's to send out their spam, > so > the spam problem will still be as bad as ever but now Joe Sixpack will be > paying to send it. > > Hmmm, and maybe *that* will finally motivate software companies, end users, > ISPs, etc etc, to fix up software, systems, and usage habits to prevent this. > > Peter. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202| Login: 617-739-WRLD The World | Public Access Internet | Since 1989 *oo*
Re: How to Stop Junk E-Mail: Charge for the Stamp
Oh no, the idiotic penny black idea rides again. Like the movie "War Games" when a young Matthew Broderick saves the world by causing the WOPR computer to be distracted into playing itself tic-tac-toe rather than launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike. It was a MOVIE, made in 1983 nonetheless, get over it. More seriously, what attracts people to this penny black idea is that they realize that the only thing which will stop spammers is to interject some sort of economic constraint. The obvious constraint would be something like stamps since that's a usage fee. But the proposer (and his/her/its audience) always hates the idea of paying postage for their own email, no, no, there must be a solution which performs that economic miracle of only charging for the behavior I don't like! An economic Maxwell's demon! So, just like the terminal seeking laetrile shots or healing waters, they turn to not even half-baked ideas such as penny black. Don't charge you, don't charge me, charge that fellow behind the tree! Oh well. Eventually email will just collapse (as it's doing) and the RBOCs et al will inherit it and we'll all be paying 15c per message like their SMS services. I know, we'll work around it. Of course by then they'll have a multi-billion dollar messaging business to make sure your attempts to by-step it are outlawed and punished. Consider what's going on with the music-sharing world, as another multi-billion dollar business people thought they could just defy with anonymous peer-to-peer services... The point: I think the time is long past due to "grow up" on this issue and accept that some sort of limited, reasonable-usage-free, postage system is necessary to prevent collapse into monopoly. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202| Login: 617-739-WRLD The World | Public Access Internet | Since 1989 *oo*
Re: [Asrg] Re: 3. Proof-of-work analysis
I'm still amazed that anyone takes this proof-of-work/hashcash stuff seriously. At best it's the "War Games" approach, let's make the server play tic-tac-toe with itself to avoid nuclear holocaust, or the Bill Shatner logical paradox that makes the robot's head blow up. The Sphinx's riddle also comes to mind, works better for supernatural beings however. I realize the defense of the dumbest ideas is always that any criticism can be represented as rudeness, ``how rude of you not to see the brilliance of my ideas!'', so one goes on and on anyhow but I wonder if there's any way to disabuse this nonsense once and for all, particularly in the minds of those who think it's a good idea? In the words of someone famous whose name I'll leave out of this: This idea isn't right, why, it isn't even wrong! -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202| Login: 617-739-WRLD The World | Public Access Internet | Since 1989 *oo*
