Re: AP Al Qaeda
No, no. AP is funny because it's impracticeable. One does not find an assassin exclusively by tracing who paid him to kill. One can (and often does) find him because he makes a mistake in the act of commiting the crime. Which, if I'm reading my history right, is what's hampered the noisy proponents of AP up to this point already. Crime? Wot crime,guvnor? Jim and CJ were not 'noisy'.imo. Im a bit noisy cos Im pushing the 'let it all hang out' version. The point is that Bell's theory does a really good job of sorting out the business end of assassination,... Oh THATS funny.I get it. HAHAHA! Killing one person, especially a public official, pisses a whole bunch of people off. Those people have a tendency to come find their buddy's killer. Mmm,where do we start,lets get some firebrands and go up to the proffrs? Look at sites with no logs for quad anon 'predictors' who may be overseas briefly visiting cybercafes,Good luck china.(you just contradicted yrself btw.) Oh,unless you mean the torture/french village reprisal thang.Win friends and influence people. The one person killed will have had to have done a lot of evil shit to get enough pooled (presumably) to tempt a seasoned pro.Unless some professional killer turns all altruistic,stranger things have happened.The killer could be suicidal.another possibility.Lots of scenarios possible here,movie scripts,even.Pop songs,video games.DoCoMo assasinphones. Someone like a torturer,murderer,terrorist,pedophile is a logical candidate.(stephen roach?)Sometimes these happen to be public officials.Theres one here where I live named dennis Tanner.(vic.au) Those killers by remote control like arbusto might be be made more accountable. What better way than...Bell's theory, a really good job of sorting out the business end of assassinationaccording to you. KILL THE PRESIDENT! Id buy that for a dollar! No kind of real or threatened assassination can weaken a government in which a majority of the governed people believe. It can only make it seem more righteous and be more strong. Thats true,roll over and go back to sleep,if you live under that govt you have nothing to worry about. More righteous and more smug.
Re: AP Al Qaeda
PROTECTED] To: mattd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bcc: Subject: Re: AP Al Qaeda In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; from [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 10:36:41PM +1100 I'm inserting attributions and reformatting cited text, since you seem incapable of quoting in a legible manner. I'm also only replying to the parts of this that particularly amuse me. You should be aware that I'm not taking you seriously. Ordinarily, I wouldn't feed the trolls, but I'm bored. On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 10:36:41PM +1100, mattd wrote: [gr wrote:] One can (and often does) find him because he makes a mistake in the act of commiting the crime. Which, if I'm reading my history right, is what's hampered the noisy proponents of AP up to this point already. Crime? Wot crime,guvnor? Jim and CJ were not 'noisy'.imo. Im a bit noisy cos Im pushing the 'let it all hang out' version. Jim Bell was arrested for, charged with, and convicted of crossing US state lines with the intent to threaten a federal official, a felony in this country. Felony == crime. Carl Johnson was similarly convicted of threatening a federal official, still a felony in the US. Regardless of what you think of the laws involved, these two broke them according to the legal system under which they chose to operate, which is, by definition, crime. Bully for you that you live (or claim to live) in Australia under a different legal system. The point here is that Bell, Johnson, and you have all made yourselves prime suspects if any public official (especially one in the US) is killed in a way that can be linked to assassination politics, and the still-rather-powerful executive branch of the US government is likely to come looking for you (and Bell and Johnson, if they're not incarcerated at that point) if someone should be, and likely to charge you with incitement to murder. It doesn't matter whether or not this is Right, it is the reality of the situation. The crypto and electronic currency ideas used in assassination politics are kind of neat as a thought experiment, but the execution (no pun intended) has, thus far, fallen extremely short. Unless you know something I don't and would care to share it. Mmm,where do we start,lets get some firebrands and go up to the proffrs? Look at sites with no logs for quad anon 'predictors' who may be overseas briefly visiting cybercafes,Good luck china. My point is that knowing who was paid to kill someone is not the only way to find out that the assassin performed the assassination. The assassin can easily be (and often is) caught in the act. The assassin can fail (and, for bonus points, also be caught). There are plenty of examples of assassination attempts for which there is no monetary paper trail in which the assassin has been caught. (Let's see, in US history off the top of my head: John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, and John W. Hinckley Jr.) The issue of getting caught is totally orthogonal to the monetary paper trail; they intersect if a LEA uses the monetary paper trail to catch the assassin, but that's not the only way to catch him. Getting caught, though, must be a concern equal to, if not greater than, compensation to an assassin interested in getting paid for assassination (since he can't get paid if he gets caught or, at least, it won't do him much good in prison). (you just contradicted yrself btw.) How so? The one person killed will have had to have done a lot of evil shit to get enough pooled (presumably) to tempt a seasoned pro. I think you've watched Grosse Pointe Blank five too many times. How many seasoned professional killers do you really imagine are running around in the US these days? No, really, I want to know what you think. Unless some professional killer turns all altruistic,stranger things have happened.The killer could be suicidal.another possibility.Lots of scenarios possible here,movie scripts,even. Hrm. That kind of counteracts the utility of Bell's system of remuneration for assassination, doesn't it? If the assassin would have done it for free (or, at least, cheap) and is willing to die trying, why would he bother with all the crypto flim-flam? Sure, maybe having a list of recommended targets would be helpful for all those civil-liberty-loving suicidal assassins out there just searching for a suitably morally devoid victim, but there's not much need for an organization to hold predictions in escrow then, now is there? KILL THE PRESIDENT! Id buy that for a dollar! Really, I don't see what you've got against W. He's actually just a harmless twit, another Ronald Reagan. You really ought to be more interested in his cabinet, starting with (my former governor, who managed to lose an election to a dead man) Ashcroft. They're the real assholes. But you'd have a hard time knowing that considering you don't even live in the country whose public figures you're so interested in having assassinated. Cheers mattd, apologies to the unamused on cypherpunks
Re: AP Al Qaeda
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, gabriel rosenkoetter wrote: Killing one person, especially a public official, pisses a whole bunch of people off. Those people have a tendency to come find their buddy's killer. No kind of real or threatened assassination can weaken a government in which a majority of the governed people believe. It can only make it seem more righteous and be more strong. I'm glad somebody 'gets it'. -- Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: AP Al Qaeda, the wrath of choate!
Get your damn quoting right, Declan didn't right the ' ' delimited text as you indicate. Get this right dickhead.Im here to annoy you,declan and any other cypherpunk I feel like.Your fancypants,the lotta youse. (cept peter trei)
Re: AP Al Qaeda
On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 09:50:24PM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: Just keep in mind that AP is a joke among knowledgeable technologists for its unworkability, but a wonderful joke on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt. Total bullshit again. Sure, AP requires anonymous digital cash, but so do most other elements of the cypherpunk vision. No, no. AP is funny because it's impracticeable. One does not find an assassin exclusively by tracing who paid him to kill. One can (and often does) find him because he makes a mistake in the act of commiting the crime. Which, if I'm reading my history right, is what's hampered the noisy proponents of AP up to this point already. The point is that Bell's theory does a really good job of sorting out the business end of assassination, but it does nothing for actually teaching people how to kill. More importantly, it doesn't teach people how to avoid getting caught. Killing one person, especially a public official, pisses a whole bunch of people off. Those people have a tendency to come find their buddy's killer. No kind of real or threatened assassination can weaken a government in which a majority of the governed people believe. It can only make it seem more righteous and be more strong. -- gabriel rosenkoetter [EMAIL PROTECTED] [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
Re: AP Al Qaeda
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Nomen Nescio [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John Young writes, regarding Assassination Politics: Just keep in mind that AP is a joke among knowledgeable technologists for its unworkability, but a wonderful joke on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt. Total bullshit again. Yes, but the reason it's bullshit is that shooting messengers does no good. It leaves intact the originators of the message, all hundred- million of them. Tomorrow, the hundred million will be stumbling over each other trying to empower new messengers to replace those fallen. Who else but the messengers (politicians, bureaucrats, etc.) is going to collect the money to pay the Social Security, after all? Who else is going to halt the drug trade? Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst. Worse than the secret ballot? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQBVAwUBPBX4a/PsjZpmLV0BAQEhqgH/cURZ7LO9meHr8HGV/RArtsPY6oDoLrkq ICoKTRLunQrdcsYjgyDx464IXJW4Z/PK6qL9oHGuTikXmt0KX3TEhw== =AVcC -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: CDR: Re: AP Al Qaeda
On 11 Dec 2001, D.Popkin wrote: Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst. Worse than the secret ballot? AP *IS* a form of secret ballot. -- Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: AP Al Qaeda
On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 08:20:25PM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: Taxes (much higher than before due to the greater expenses of operating the government) could be charged based on imputed property values depending on zip code and acreage. Everyone in a particular neighborhood would be charged a fixed amount per square foot. Any household which does not provide the required fee (via cryptographic anonymous transfer into the government account of course) would have its property subject to confiscation by police. Armed resistance would be met by military force including helicopter gunships. Without getting into any AP discussion, I would point out that there are some positive things to be said about turning to property taxes. Also, if you fail to pay your property tax now, it will (in extremis) be confiscated. Armed resistance to confiscation would be met by escalation, including, if necessary, military helicopters. -Declan
AP Al Qaeda
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:46:06 -0800 Subject: Media Question : : : Hello Mr. Young. My name is Chris Anderson, I am an Associate Producer for a cable television network called TechTV. TechTV is a national cable station specializing in computer and technological based programming, I work for a weekly news magazine show. I am doing a story on a concept called Assassination Politics, which I'm sure as you know, was developed by a man named Jim Bell. I am wondering if I could talk to you about some Cypherpunks being involved. I am also wondering (knowing of course that this is not a Cypherpunks organization only a small group of Cypherpunks who are involved) if you could talk to me about how you feel about AP and it being associated by many with Cypherpunks. you can respond via email or by phone.. my email address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] and my phone number at our San Francisco headquarters is (415) 355-4197. Hope to hear from you soon. Best regards, Chris Anderson TechTV Associate Producer - Chris, AP is a touchy topic for Cypherpunks, whoever they may be. It is likely the USA is attempting to link AP to Cypherpunks for prosecution, so not many will want to talk about the topic. You may know that several cpunks have been drawn into the trials of Jim Bell and Carl Johnson. For Bell's latest trial I was subpoenaed for a grand jury appearance as well as a trial witness. I was questioned in the grand jury about hosting AP on our Web site and it was cited in the trial, though Bell has never been charged for writing the essay. Carl Johnson was convicted of running a spoof of AP. So my opinion is that AP is a lure set out by the authorities to entrap the unwary, Cypherpunks among them. I believe that Bell and Johnson have been, and are continuing to be, a part of that lure, whether witting or unwitting. AP is highy suspect, and becoming more so as it gets additional promotion, not by whatever adherents it may have but by its opponents. I expect AP to be used to advance the anti-terrorism industry now booming. Just keep in mind that AP is a joke among knowledgeable technologists for its unworkability, but a wonderful joke on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt. I said that in the grand jury, but the prosecutor insisted otherwise in the grand jury and in the trial. But AP was successfully used as an Al Qaeda type jury persuader. Narrative combating narrative. Regards, John
Re: AP Al Qaeda
John Young writes, regarding Assassination Politics: AP is a touchy topic for Cypherpunks, whoever they may be. It is likely the USA is attempting to link AP to Cypherpunks for prosecution, so not many will want to talk about the topic. Cypherpunks pioneered the use of encryption and anonymity for many purposes, but one of them was precisely this: to allow discussion of forbidden subjects. So my opinion is that AP is a lure set out by the authorities to entrap the unwary, Cypherpunks among them. I believe that Bell and Johnson have been, and are continuing to be, a part of that lure, whether witting or unwitting. That's bullshit. Surely you can't deny that AP was conceived by Bell exactly as what it was claimed to be, a tool to be used against government agents who overstep their authority and violate the rights of American citizens. (And as an important consequence it would therefore encourage governments to behave legally and respectfully towards their citizens, as they should.) Bell certainly did not conceive of AP as a way of entrapping cypherpunks. He didn't even know about cypherpunks when he came up with the idea. AP is highy suspect, and becoming more so as it gets additional promotion, not by whatever adherents it may have but by its opponents. I expect AP to be used to advance the anti-terrorism industry now booming. Just keep in mind that AP is a joke among knowledgeable technologists for its unworkability, but a wonderful joke on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt. Total bullshit again. Sure, AP requires anonymous digital cash, but so do most other elements of the cypherpunk vision. Would you say that crypto anarchy, information black markets, and commerce among pseudonyms are a joke? These are just as hypothetical as AP at present. It's entirely possible that some form of anonymous cash will be developed in the next few years, and once that happens AP will be trivial to implement. It's far from a joke, it is a very real possibility. AP is part of the dark side of the cypherpunk dream and it must be faced rather than evaded. The real problem with AP is not that it would be illegal, because much of what cypherpunks call for is presently illegal. Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst. There are no checks and balances. It is the height of folly to suppose that AP would be used only against those whom cypherpunks themselves oppose, like corrupt government agents. AP could be used against anyone who has a high profile. If AP were implemented, there is no question but that Jim Bell would be one of the first targets! All those people who found himself on his list, along with their heirs and successors, would want revenge. Everyone involved with the assassinations would be anonymous except Bell himself, making him the most prominent target of their wrath. Other notable supporters of crypto anarchy would follow soon, such as cypherpunk founders May and Hughes. The people involved with the digital cash would be targets as well, and so on. Despite these unpleasant facts, once digital cash exists, AP will be inevitable, along with many other forms of anonymous murder-for-hire. Cypherpunks have discussed these possibilities from the very beginning. To pretend that AP is somehow outside of the scope of cypherpunk thinking, a hoax or joke perpetrated by outsiders as a lure, is just absurd. With crypto anarchy you have to take the bad with the good. What, then, is the solution to survival in a world of assassins at large? It is simple, and it is in fact the same as the solution to the problem of how to discuss AP in a world in which even mentioning it could get you arrested, the problem which led to John Young's dissembling above. Perhaps the alert reader will be able to conceive of the solution for himself.
Re: AP Al Qaeda
Whatever promise AP has for its avowed purpose, so far it has helped to jail a couple of guys and smear a few more while boosting the careers of several alleged targets. Talking about AP in public is still going on, here and elsewhere. Disagreeing about it too. Take it seriously or as a joke, take your pick. Nothing in the essay proves it's serious or a joke. Its quality appears to be determined by the credulity of the reader. I like its jokey aspects more than the other. But that's my feeling about this forum too. The thrill continues, trying to figure out who is serious and how is joking and who is laying the traps. The more serious posts here are the best, but mattd is coming on swell for a standoff comic. True that not everyone likes the humor of political agitation, and prefer a somber aping of the pols and mils and edus flogging non-fictional aspirations to right what's wrong, delusional ravings presented as insight. Jim Bell would have made AP an underground comedy if he had hung out with the time-wasterists at MIT rather than with the techno-commercialists. But I think his techno-political potboiler succeeds by making a comical wrong turn into the pokey, not once but twice, and inspiring CJ to follow, and mattd, and surely more to come as the AP PR machine gains momentum. A lesson to be learned by the politico-religio-righteous.
