Re: Bruce Schneier Hullabaloo
On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Neil Johnson wrote: U, how about. 1. Big multi-national corporation buys off politicians to pass laws to protect their business model (DMCA anyone ?) 2. Gets meter maid to enforce said law. 3. See above. Ahhh, I see. Let's just get rid of the middle-man (government) and then the corps can take take of enforcement directly (pirate a song, get whacked). Much more efficient I would guess. Congratulations, you're starting to understand the 'hidden agenda' of the CACL [1] contengent. [1] Crypto-Anarcy, Anarcho-Capitalist, Libertarian -- We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. Criswell, Plan 9 from Outer Space [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com www.open-forge.org
CDR: Re: Bruce Schneier Hullabaloo
On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Neil Johnson wrote: U, how about. 1. Big multi-national corporation buys off politicians to pass laws to protect their business model (DMCA anyone ?) 2. Gets meter maid to enforce said law. 3. See above. Ahhh, I see. Let's just get rid of the middle-man (government) and then the corps can take take of enforcement directly (pirate a song, get whacked). Much more efficient I would guess. Congratulations, you're starting to understand the 'hidden agenda' of the CACL [1] contengent. [1] Crypto-Anarcy, Anarcho-Capitalist, Libertarian That contingent seems to be slowly shrinking and with a bit of luck will soon drop off. The true meaning of Anarchy has nothing to do with these free market fascists.SEE... http://world.std.com/~mhuben/leftlib.html
Re: Bruce Schneier Hullabaloo
On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Neil Johnson wrote: U, how about. 1. Big multi-national corporation buys off politicians to pass laws to protect their business model (DMCA anyone ?) 2. Gets meter maid to enforce said law. 3. See above. Ahhh, I see. Let's just get rid of the middle-man (government) and then the corps can take take of enforcement directly (pirate a song, get whacked). Much more efficient I would guess. Congratulations, you're starting to understand the 'hidden agenda' of the CACL [1] contengent. [1] Crypto-Anarcy, Anarcho-Capitalist, Libertarian -- We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. Criswell, Plan 9 from Outer Space [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com www.open-forge.org
Re: Bruce Schneier Hullabaloo
On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 00:07:34 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Michael Cardenas wrote: (Begin Quote) I'm curious as to what makes you, or anyone on this list, think that these technologies by themselves will cause any sort of political upheaval...What's to say that these technologies are not going to be shaped to meet the needs and wants of the transnational corporations that run our government? (End Quote) The high ranking for power concentration you implicity give to transnationals is undeserved and you are fearful of the wrong threat. The humblest meter maid can commence a process against you with consequences far greater than those that can be directed your way by the CEO of the most loathsome transnational company. That meter maid can write you a ticket. If unpaid, you will be fined. If unpaid again, your property will be seized. If you resist having your property seized, you will be beaten. If you resist being beaten, you will be shot until dead. Your most dreaded CEO can only dream for the power of a meter maid. It's governments, stupid.
Re: Bruce Schneier Hullabaloo
On Saturday 21 December 2002 08:45 am, Anonymous wrote: The high ranking for power concentration you implicity give to transnationals is undeserved and you are fearful of the wrong threat. The humblest meter maid can commence a process against you with consequences far greater than those that can be directed your way by the CEO of the most loathsome transnational company. That meter maid can write you a ticket. If unpaid, you will be fined. If unpaid again, your property will be seized. If you resist having your property seized, you will be beaten. If you resist being beaten, you will be shot until dead. Your most dreaded CEO can only dream for the power of a meter maid. U, how about. 1. Big multi-national corporation buys off politicians to pass laws to protect their business model (DMCA anyone ?) 2. Gets meter maid to enforce said law. 3. See above. Ahhh, I see. Let's just get rid of the middle-man (government) and then the corps can take take of enforcement directly (pirate a song, get whacked). Much more efficient I would guess. -- Neil Johnson PGP key available on request.
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
On Fri, Dec 20, 2002 at 10:35:06AM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote: onto the radar of U.S. legislators, who see the danger it poses to the traditional power structures. Unless all those free software programmers are prepared for armed rebellion when their right to share code is taken away, I'm not sure its all going to mean much. It's an absolute last resort that nobody really wants to get into. Nobody like the idea of getting shot at. So as long as they don't have to, they won't. Nobody? There are plenty of people *waiting* for the justification to start shooting. -- It is not the function of our government to keep the| Quit smoking: citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the | 242d, 9h ago citizen to keep the government from falling into error. | petro@ -- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, | bounty.org
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote: I'm not advocating armed rebellion. I'm saying that the current political structures in power have massive political might and are willing to use it to stay in power, as we are witnessing more everyday, and anything that challenges that might will eventually have to face it. Nothing has changed in the past 10,000 years. There are more people now, more toys to play with and things happen faster. I don't see Nero as that much different than W, other than W's mom isn't gonna get offed like Nero's was. She's smarter than her son is :-) As the massive political powers become more corrupt, they make more mistakes. They don't have to think too hard any more because they are massive political powers. That's their weakness, and it's a damn good thing too. Getting them to destroy themselves becomes easier - like the Medici. The Berrata family is still around, mostly because they never decided to be a _political_ power. They have stayed as an economic one. Political structures have to die just like living ones for things to change. I think we'll see things change. But I won't bet how :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
Anonymous wrote: Like I said before, P2P, Crypto, WiFi and cheap chips will turn everything upside down. I'm curious as to what makes you, or anyone on this list, think that these technologies by themselves will cause any sort of political upheaval. Lawrence Lessig has talked about how technologies, as long as they're created and controlled by people and corporations operating within the laws and boundaries of some country, can be regulated to express the will of governments. Your MAC address is already sent out in every packet that your machine generates, so with that, a snoop could tell a whole hell of a lot about what you're doing. What's to say that these technologies are not going to be shaped to meet the needs and wants of the transnational corporations that run our government? I think that Bruce Schneier's terse comment just illustrates the flippant attitude that lots of geeks have towards politics, and that lots of people have also. Just because geeks know a lot about technology, doesn't mean that they're impervious to the massive propaganda and mind control that goes on in democratic societies to keep the rabble out of the political process. I just have a hard time seeing the bridge between armed rebellion against the largest military power the world has ever known, the U.S., and some new networking technologies that are being designed for cisco to make more money. Even beautiful open source efforts like p2p and linux that actually express the will of the people are starting to get onto the radar of U.S. legislators, who see the danger it poses to the traditional power structures. Unless all those free software programmers are prepared for armed rebellion when their right to share code is taken away, I'm not sure its all going to mean much. -- michael cardenas | lead software engineer, lindows.com hyperpoem.net | GNU/Linux software developer people.debian.org/~mbc | encrypted mail preferred Be the change you wish to see in the world -Mahatma Gandhi
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote: I think that Bruce Schneier's terse comment just illustrates the flippant attitude that lots of geeks have towards politics, and that lots of people have also. Just because geeks know a lot about technology, doesn't mean that they're impervious to the massive propaganda and mind control that goes on in democratic societies to keep the rabble out of the political process. Group think isn't qute the same a mind control. Nobody actually controls the masses, but smart and dangerous folks know how to ride them. Sitting back and watching the mob can give you a clue where not to stand I just have a hard time seeing the bridge between armed rebellion against the largest military power the world has ever known, the U.S., and some new networking technologies that are being designed for cisco to make more money. Even beautiful open source efforts like p2p and linux that actually express the will of the people are starting to get onto the radar of U.S. legislators, who see the danger it poses to the traditional power structures. Unless all those free software programmers are prepared for armed rebellion when their right to share code is taken away, I'm not sure its all going to mean much. It's an absolute last resort that nobody really wants to get into. Nobody like the idea of getting shot at. So as long as they don't have to, they won't. Be the change you wish to see in the world -Mahatma Gandhi So how we gonna change the world dude? Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
Mike Rosing wrote: On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote: I just have a hard time seeing the bridge between armed rebellion against the largest military power the world has ever known, the U.S., and some new networking technologies that are being designed for cisco to make more money. Even beautiful open source efforts like p2p and linux that actually express the will of the people are starting to get onto the radar of U.S. legislators, who see the danger it poses to the traditional power structures. Unless all those free software programmers are prepared for armed rebellion when their right to share code is taken away, I'm not sure its all going to mean much. It's an absolute last resort that nobody really wants to get into. Nobody like the idea of getting shot at. So as long as they don't have to, they won't. Be the change you wish to see in the world -Mahatma Gandhi So how we gonna change the world dude? I'm not advocating armed rebellion. I'm saying that the current political structures in power have massive political might and are willing to use it to stay in power, as we are witnessing more everyday, and anything that challenges that might will eventually have to face it. -- michael cardenas | lead software engineer, lindows.com hyperpoem.net | GNU/Linux software developer people.debian.org/~mbc | encrypted mail preferred Be the change you wish to see in the world -Mahatma Gandhi
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote: Ahh... I meant massive military might. Not a whole lot of difference usually :-) mike
RE: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
Mike Rosing[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote [...] The Berrata family is still around, mostly because they never decided to be a _political_ power. They have stayed as an economic one. [...] I think you meant the *Beretta* family, who have been making fine fireams since the 1520's. Other really old companies: Stora Enso Oyj of Helsinki, Finland, a paper and board maker, began as a copper mine in central Sweden in 1288. Sumitomo Corp. of Tokyo was founded as a book and medicine shop in Kyoto in the early 1600s by Masatomo Sumitomo. Peter Trei
RE: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Trei, Peter wrote: I think you meant the *Beretta* family, who have been making fine fireams since the 1520's. Yup, my spelling sucks :-) Other really old companies: Stora Enso Oyj of Helsinki, Finland, a paper and board maker, began as a copper mine in central Sweden in 1288. Sumitomo Corp. of Tokyo was founded as a book and medicine shop in Kyoto in the early 1600s by Masatomo Sumitomo. Cool. Nice to know it's a world wide trend :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: Bruce Schneier Hullabaloo
On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 00:07:34 -0800 (PST), you wrote: Michael Cardenas wrote: (Begin Quote) I'm curious as to what makes you, or anyone on this list, think that these technologies by themselves will cause any sort of political upheaval...What's to say that these technologies are not going to be shaped to meet the needs and wants of the transnational corporations that run our government? (End Quote) The high ranking for power concentration you implicity give to transnationals is undeserved and you are fearful of the wrong threat. The humblest meter maid can commence a process against you with consequences far greater than those that can be directed your way by the CEO of the most loathsome transnational company. That meter maid can write you a ticket. If unpaid, you will be fined. If unpaid again, your property will be seized. If you resist having your property seized, you will be beaten. If you resist being beaten, you will be shot until dead. Your most dreaded CEO can only dream for the power of a meter maid. It's governments, stupid.
Re: Bruce Schneier Hullabaloo
On Saturday 21 December 2002 08:45 am, Anonymous wrote: The high ranking for power concentration you implicity give to transnationals is undeserved and you are fearful of the wrong threat. The humblest meter maid can commence a process against you with consequences far greater than those that can be directed your way by the CEO of the most loathsome transnational company. That meter maid can write you a ticket. If unpaid, you will be fined. If unpaid again, your property will be seized. If you resist having your property seized, you will be beaten. If you resist being beaten, you will be shot until dead. Your most dreaded CEO can only dream for the power of a meter maid. U, how about. 1. Big multi-national corporation buys off politicians to pass laws to protect their business model (DMCA anyone ?) 2. Gets meter maid to enforce said law. 3. See above. Ahhh, I see. Let's just get rid of the middle-man (government) and then the corps can take take of enforcement directly (pirate a song, get whacked). Much more efficient I would guess. -- Neil Johnson PGP key available on request.
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
Anonymous wrote: Like I said before, P2P, Crypto, WiFi and cheap chips will turn everything upside down. I'm curious as to what makes you, or anyone on this list, think that these technologies by themselves will cause any sort of political upheaval. Lawrence Lessig has talked about how technologies, as long as they're created and controlled by people and corporations operating within the laws and boundaries of some country, can be regulated to express the will of governments. Your MAC address is already sent out in every packet that your machine generates, so with that, a snoop could tell a whole hell of a lot about what you're doing. What's to say that these technologies are not going to be shaped to meet the needs and wants of the transnational corporations that run our government? I think that Bruce Schneier's terse comment just illustrates the flippant attitude that lots of geeks have towards politics, and that lots of people have also. Just because geeks know a lot about technology, doesn't mean that they're impervious to the massive propaganda and mind control that goes on in democratic societies to keep the rabble out of the political process. I just have a hard time seeing the bridge between armed rebellion against the largest military power the world has ever known, the U.S., and some new networking technologies that are being designed for cisco to make more money. Even beautiful open source efforts like p2p and linux that actually express the will of the people are starting to get onto the radar of U.S. legislators, who see the danger it poses to the traditional power structures. Unless all those free software programmers are prepared for armed rebellion when their right to share code is taken away, I'm not sure its all going to mean much. -- michael cardenas | lead software engineer, lindows.com hyperpoem.net | GNU/Linux software developer people.debian.org/~mbc | encrypted mail preferred Be the change you wish to see in the world -Mahatma Gandhi
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote: I think that Bruce Schneier's terse comment just illustrates the flippant attitude that lots of geeks have towards politics, and that lots of people have also. Just because geeks know a lot about technology, doesn't mean that they're impervious to the massive propaganda and mind control that goes on in democratic societies to keep the rabble out of the political process. Group think isn't qute the same a mind control. Nobody actually controls the masses, but smart and dangerous folks know how to ride them. Sitting back and watching the mob can give you a clue where not to stand I just have a hard time seeing the bridge between armed rebellion against the largest military power the world has ever known, the U.S., and some new networking technologies that are being designed for cisco to make more money. Even beautiful open source efforts like p2p and linux that actually express the will of the people are starting to get onto the radar of U.S. legislators, who see the danger it poses to the traditional power structures. Unless all those free software programmers are prepared for armed rebellion when their right to share code is taken away, I'm not sure its all going to mean much. It's an absolute last resort that nobody really wants to get into. Nobody like the idea of getting shot at. So as long as they don't have to, they won't. Be the change you wish to see in the world -Mahatma Gandhi So how we gonna change the world dude? Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
On Fri, Dec 20, 2002 at 10:35:06AM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote: onto the radar of U.S. legislators, who see the danger it poses to the traditional power structures. Unless all those free software programmers are prepared for armed rebellion when their right to share code is taken away, I'm not sure its all going to mean much. It's an absolute last resort that nobody really wants to get into. Nobody like the idea of getting shot at. So as long as they don't have to, they won't. Nobody? There are plenty of people *waiting* for the justification to start shooting. -- It is not the function of our government to keep the| Quit smoking: citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the | 242d, 9h ago citizen to keep the government from falling into error. | petro@ -- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, | bounty.org
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote: I'm not advocating armed rebellion. I'm saying that the current political structures in power have massive political might and are willing to use it to stay in power, as we are witnessing more everyday, and anything that challenges that might will eventually have to face it. Nothing has changed in the past 10,000 years. There are more people now, more toys to play with and things happen faster. I don't see Nero as that much different than W, other than W's mom isn't gonna get offed like Nero's was. She's smarter than her son is :-) As the massive political powers become more corrupt, they make more mistakes. They don't have to think too hard any more because they are massive political powers. That's their weakness, and it's a damn good thing too. Getting them to destroy themselves becomes easier - like the Medici. The Berrata family is still around, mostly because they never decided to be a _political_ power. They have stayed as an economic one. Political structures have to die just like living ones for things to change. I think we'll see things change. But I won't bet how :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote: Ahh... I meant massive military might. Not a whole lot of difference usually :-) mike
Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
At 01:43 PM 12/20/02 -0800, Mike Rosing wrote: I don't see Nero as that much different than W, other than W's mom isn't gonna get offed like Nero's was. She's smarter than her son is :-) Not necessarily. Nero's mom didn't have SS agents watching her and PaBush for life. -- Intended only for lawful uses. -HP Computer Advert
RE: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
Mike Rosing[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote [...] The Berrata family is still around, mostly because they never decided to be a _political_ power. They have stayed as an economic one. [...] I think you meant the *Beretta* family, who have been making fine fireams since the 1520's. Other really old companies: Stora Enso Oyj of Helsinki, Finland, a paper and board maker, began as a copper mine in central Sweden in 1288. Sumitomo Corp. of Tokyo was founded as a book and medicine shop in Kyoto in the early 1600s by Masatomo Sumitomo. Peter Trei
RE: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Trei, Peter wrote: I think you meant the *Beretta* family, who have been making fine fireams since the 1520's. Yup, my spelling sucks :-) Other really old companies: Stora Enso Oyj of Helsinki, Finland, a paper and board maker, began as a copper mine in central Sweden in 1288. Sumitomo Corp. of Tokyo was founded as a book and medicine shop in Kyoto in the early 1600s by Masatomo Sumitomo. Cool. Nice to know it's a world wide trend :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
