Re: Democracy is our enemy
On Tue, Sep 25, 2001 at 03:22:34AM -, Anonymous wrote: There was an article the other day about the terrorists, which made the point that capitalism and fundamentalism were much alike, in that both share a distrust of democracy. The same can be said for the cypherpunks. Difference: Cypherpunks distrust democracy, at least unfettered from its democratic republic roots in the U.S., because it has proven an uncertain safeguard of liberty. Bin Laden co distrust democracy because it permits too much liberty. -Declan
Re: Democracy is our enemy
on Tue, Sep 25, 2001 at 03:22:34AM -, Anonymous ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Thomas Leavitt writes: There was an article the other day about the terrorists, which made the point that capitalism and fundamentalism were much alike, in that both share a distrust of democracy. I can think of a number of differences as well. The same can be said for the cypherpunks. No wonder that so many here have expressed vitriolic criticism of the U.S. government response (which has been almost zero), while there has been little mention of the horrific evil of the terrorist acts themselves. As trolls go, about a 6.5. Terrorists are not in a direct position to deprive us of rights to privacy, free speech, encryption, and computing platforms. Should their cause prevail I've no doubt access to such freedoms would be far starker than under any regime pledged to the US Constitution, with little recourse for appeal. There is little on-charter discussion possible of the terrorists. There may be speculation of methods they did (or didn't) use. Outcomes of their actions are going to generally be abhorred. The response of the US and other govnerments worldwide is a different issue. These are largely institutions of or answerable to their peoples. There's also a long tradition in democratic (both proper democracies and republican governments) political experience of making rash decisions, often curtailing the freedoms of democracy. I see no problem with focussing discussion on these matters. The philosophical connection becomes even clearer with the frequent statements by cypherpunks that those who disagree need killing, IMVAO we're cut from manifold different weaves of cloth. None of us speaks for all, self included. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of Gestalt don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
Re: Democracy is our enemy
Anonymous wrote: There was an article the other day about the terrorists, which made the point that capitalism and fundamentalism were much alike, in that both share a distrust of democracy. The same can be said for the cypherpunks. No wonder that so many here have expressed vitriolic criticism of the U.S. government response (which has been almost zero), while there has been little mention of the horrific evil of the terrorist acts themselves. Simple reason: the terrorist acts were despicable. The terrorists, their funders, their sponsors, their hosts, and probably their fellow travellers should be hunted down and killed. There is no debate on this point among civilized human beings. The only real question on this is how many civilian deaths are acceptable in killing the terrorists. By contrast, there is plenty of room for debate on the measures being taken and proposed by the Western nations, and on the motivations of the politicians behind these measures. Tim May and Usama bin Laden are now revealed as philosophical cousins. It is becoming harder and harder to tell them apart. Bull. Annoying though Tim sometimes is, there's a big difference between denigrating someone because you dislike his views or actions, and killing thousands just to make a point that you don't like some other people. And Tim's put his effort where his mouth is, writing articles and code to further his agenda, while Osama Bitch Laden sent others to die to further his agenda. No comparison at all. -- Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel 617-670-3793 Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws. -- Plato
Re: Democracy is our enemy
At 03:22 AM 9/25/2001 +, Anonymous wrote: Thomas Leavitt writes: I'm tired of hearing my fellow Americans referred to as cowards, weaklings, sheep, ignorant, easily mislead - this is a profoundly undemocratic sentiment, the same kind of crap spewed by totalitarian and authoritarian types from the far left and the far right as justification for abandonment of the democratic process and the use of force to impose their ideology on the rest of us. Well said. There was an article the other day about the terrorists, which made the point that capitalism and fundamentalism were much alike, in that both share a distrust of democracy. The same can be said for the cypherpunks. The same can be said for the framers. That's why we don't have a democracy butthead. Is it possible that certain cypherpunks find themselves on the same side as bin Laden and his fundamentalist killers? Do they secretly support this murderous attacks on innocent civilians? We now face biological and chemical attacks, which are supposed to be even more cruel and shocking than the WTC attacks. Are these cypherpunks in favor of seeing more Americans killed by terrorist actions? I can't speak for others but I don't want to see any more Americans killed by terrorists than have been killed by U.S.-supported right-wing regimes in the past 50 years. Its only when the chickens come home to roost that the true price of our global hegenomy and victory against others with different idiologies will be driven home and our foreign policy adjusted accordingly. The philosophical connection becomes even clearer with the frequent statements by cypherpunks that those who disagree need killing, that blood must be shed by those of different political views. Not views, actions which impinge on our liberties. In effect this is a call for a Cypherpunk Jihad (the word is often translated as holy war, but justified struggle is as valid a translation). It is no different for Tim May to call for the extinction of his enemies than for Usama bin Laden to do so. Cypherpunks need to take a hard look at themselves. Anyone who feels horror and disgust at the terrorist acts should recognize that the same sentiments are found here, just below the surface. The thinly veiled threats of bloodshed are based on the same philosophy of violent hatred and contempt for others which motivates the terrorists. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Asymetrical warfare is here to stay. Get used to it! U.S. citizens feel their hands are clean because our leaders made sure Americans weren't holding the guns which slaughtered tens of thousands. They can't understand why so many now want us dead. What did we do to deserve this? Many of our mid-east puppets have used the U.S. as their whipping boy to deflect criticism from their own oppressive regimes and our tolerance of this over the past decades will now haunt our foreign policy for many years to come. If we want to stop terrorism we need to fix our foreign policy.
Democracy is our enemy
On Monday, September 24, 2001, at 03:08 PM, Thomas Leavitt wrote: I'm tired of hearing my fellow Americans referred to as cowards, weaklings, sheep, ignorant, easily mislead - this is a profoundly undemocratic sentiment, the same kind of crap spewed by totalitarian and authoritarian types from the far left and the far right as justification for abandonment of the democratic process and the use of force to impose their ideology on the rest of us. We are not for democracy. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Crypto anarchy is about undermining democracy, causing the house of cards to collapse. I refuse to give up on our way of life, my fellow citizens, or to write off my government as completely and irredemably lost. You are welcome to refuse to give up on our way of life. Many others over the centuries have similarly refused to give up on royalism...I hear there are even clubs where people pretend to be various archdukes and viscounts, and even fan clubs for the grandchildren of royals deposed 75 years ago. Maybe there will be fan clubs for democracy supporters. Maybe they will even launch little wars agains the royalists. Democracy will soon be consigned to the dustbin of history. --Tim May
Re: Democracy is our enemy
At 04:58 PM 9/24/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote: On Monday, September 24, 2001, at 03:08 PM, Thomas Leavitt wrote: I'm tired of hearing my fellow Americans referred to as cowards, weaklings, sheep, ignorant, easily mislead - this is a profoundly undemocratic sentiment, the same kind of crap spewed by totalitarian and authoritarian types from the far left and the far right as justification for abandonment of the democratic process and the use of force to impose their ideology on the rest of us. We are not for democracy. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. We are not a democracy, but a repubic (pun intended). The primary responsibility of our elected officials is to protect the minorities from the majority and to preserve protect and defend the constitution. Many representatives clearly show they have at best a poor understanding of the Constitution, the words and intentions of the framers. Some even show disdain for it. How many Congressmen do you think ever read Thomas Paine's works? Crypto anarchy is about undermining democracy, causing the house of cards to collapse. I refuse to give up on our way of life, my fellow citizens, or to write off my government as completely and irredemably lost. You are welcome to refuse to give up on our way of life. Many others over the centuries have similarly refused to give up on royalism...I hear there are even clubs where people pretend to be various archdukes and viscounts, and even fan clubs for the grandchildren of royals deposed 75 years ago. Maybe there will be fan clubs for democracy supporters. Maybe they will even launch little wars agains the royalists. Democracy will soon be consigned to the dustbin of history. I hope representative government is not.
Democracy is our enemy
On Mon, 24 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: We are not for democracy. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Speak for yourself butthead. Crypto anarchy is about undermining democracy, causing the house of cards to collapse. Anarcho anything is a sham. -- Kill them all, take their land, and go there for vacation. Rage Against The Machine The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: Democracy is our enemy
Thomas Leavitt writes: I'm tired of hearing my fellow Americans referred to as cowards, weaklings, sheep, ignorant, easily mislead - this is a profoundly undemocratic sentiment, the same kind of crap spewed by totalitarian and authoritarian types from the far left and the far right as justification for abandonment of the democratic process and the use of force to impose their ideology on the rest of us. Well said. There was an article the other day about the terrorists, which made the point that capitalism and fundamentalism were much alike, in that both share a distrust of democracy. The same can be said for the cypherpunks. No wonder that so many here have expressed vitriolic criticism of the U.S. government response (which has been almost zero), while there has been little mention of the horrific evil of the terrorist acts themselves. Putting it starkly, who is more evil: John Ashcroft or Mohammed Atta? Is it possible that certain cypherpunks find themselves on the same side as bin Laden and his fundamentalist killers? Do they secretly support this murderous attacks on innocent civilians? We now face biological and chemical attacks, which are supposed to be even more cruel and shocking than the WTC attacks. Are these cypherpunks in favor of seeing more Americans killed by terrorist actions? The philosophical connection becomes even clearer with the frequent statements by cypherpunks that those who disagree need killing, that blood must be shed by those of different political views. In effect this is a call for a Cypherpunk Jihad (the word is often translated as holy war, but justified struggle is as valid a translation). It is no different for Tim May to call for the extinction of his enemies than for Usama bin Laden to do so. Cypherpunks need to take a hard look at themselves. Anyone who feels horror and disgust at the terrorist acts should recognize that the same sentiments are found here, just below the surface. The thinly veiled threats of bloodshed are based on the same philosophy of violent hatred and contempt for others which motivates the terrorists. Tim May and Usama bin Laden are now revealed as philosophical cousins. It is becoming harder and harder to tell them apart.
