Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool (meow)
"Then your ears are not golden, period." Harumph! But you misunderstand what the phase button does. If the speakers are wired out of phase anybody can hear that. Actually, it's a quite interesting thing to hear...nothing is really localizable. But the phase button inverts the absolute phase of the signal coming out of both speakers. In other words, with a bass drum hit do the speaker cones move outward at the initial strike or inward (as they are not supposed to). Supposedly this difference can be heard, but my speakers start rolling off below 100Hz, so I suspect that's why I have a very hard time discerning the absolute phase difference when I hit the button. -TD From: Jim Choate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool (meow) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 23:51:47 -0500 (CDT) On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Tyler Durden wrote: > Somebody wrote... > > >Yes this is for localization ---clicks are broadband, you need to > >identify which freq components are used. I still think > >humans can't discriminate the phase of a tone. > > An interesting thing to try is to play with the "phase" button on many > high-end gear. This supposedly matters for low frequencies, but despite my > unarguably golden ears, I'm still not convinced I can hear the difference. Then your ears are not golden, period. A standard test of audio systems in PA's for example is related to 'speaker phase' (ie all the cones move out or in together at the same time). This is tested by putting a click on the line and then standing between pairs of speakers. It is quite easy to tell when the speakers are in phase. The same can be said for music (and no you don't need expensive high end equipment), garble the phase and things like echo become very(!!!) wierd. You just have to have the experience to know what to 'look' for. A very(!) simple test to demonstrate/test your phase sensitivity (using even very low quality equipment) is to connect a speaker between the R and L channels (in essence it is driven by diff between the two channels). This tends to highlight the phase disparity between the two channels significantly enhancing the 'depth' of the music. Put a switch in there and then have a friend enable/disable the speaker without your knowledge. Then indicate what you think is the 'third speaker' setting. If you can't tell nearly 100% of the time then any money on high end equipment is a waste of your budget. This trick (was very popular in the 70's, especially for us Quadraphonic fans) was what eventually led to the sub-woofer we all know and love today (I do wish somebody would do something about those damn rattling cars though). -- We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space" [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com www.open-forge.org _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool (meow)
Somebody wrote... Yes this is for localization ---clicks are broadband, you need to identify which freq components are used. I still think humans can't discriminate the phase of a tone. An interesting thing to try is to play with the "phase" button on many high-end gear. This supposedly matters for low frequencies, but despite my unarguably golden ears, I'm still not convinced I can hear the difference. My Thiel speakers, however, claim to be "phase coherent", and that seems to be an entirely different matter. In other words, the different frequency components of a sound are transmitted in correct phase relationships (ie, true to the original sound), and the result is a (sometimes) astonishing level of spacial detail. Of course, non-audiophiles will poo-poo that claim, but even they will hear that the Thiels are far more accurate than the crap that's sold in Circuit City or whatever. So I figure I may as well believe Jim Thiel's claim that phase coherence is important in a speaker. -TD From: Mike Rosing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool (meow) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:32:53 -0700 (PDT) On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > Yes this is for localization ---clicks are broadband, you need to > identify which freq components are used. I still think > humans can't discriminate the phase of a tone. In fact, MP3s > use this to cut bits. They can tell relative phase, but it takes a lot of training. > After the experiments, the cats > will be ok, as I assume they're sufficiently > plastic, unless you do brain staining on them. :-(Or your policy is > the > Tim McVeigh treatment. both. They spend a year training the cats, then a year or 2 collecting data, then brain stain, then vaporize. Each cat is worth about $1M when it's all done, and it's got a lot of skull missing while it's alive. But it's well protected with a lot of aluminum and epoxy :-) > Cool stuff, though my domestic feline wants to know where you live. > > PS: have you identified the "can opener sound" brain-center yet? I think you better keep it far away! And no, they don't play with higher order systems. The low level stuff is hard enough!! > Cats manage biometrics and reputation better than most human systems.. :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool (meow)
On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > Yes this is for localization ---clicks are broadband, you need to > identify which freq components are used. I still think > humans can't discriminate the phase of a tone. In fact, MP3s > use this to cut bits. They can tell relative phase, but it takes a lot of training. > After the experiments, the cats > will be ok, as I assume they're sufficiently > plastic, unless you do brain staining on them. :-(Or your policy is > the > Tim McVeigh treatment. both. They spend a year training the cats, then a year or 2 collecting data, then brain stain, then vaporize. Each cat is worth about $1M when it's all done, and it's got a lot of skull missing while it's alive. But it's well protected with a lot of aluminum and epoxy :-) > Cool stuff, though my domestic feline wants to know where you live. > > PS: have you identified the "can opener sound" brain-center yet? I think you better keep it far away! And no, they don't play with higher order systems. The low level stuff is hard enough!! > Cats manage biometrics and reputation better than most human systems.. :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool (meow)
At 11:45 AM 7/9/03 -0700, Mike Rosing wrote: >On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >> Actually I thought humans are insensitive to phase relations, modulo >> inter-aural timing at low frequencies for spatial location. Perhaps >> that >> is what you meant? But spatial location isn't the same as the >> frequency-fetishing >> audiophiles go for. To do that well you need casts of the outer ear >> too. > >No, if you put 2 clicks out that are 10 usec's apart on right and >left, most people can pick out which side came first. 90% of the >time anyway. Yes this is for localization ---clicks are broadband, you need to identify which freq components are used. I still think humans can't discriminate the phase of a tone. In fact, MP3s use this to cut bits. >> You doing owl-type studies on auditory localization? Audio-visual >> mapping >> and plasticity? Making the cats wear funky glasses? > >Yup. they sew coils into their eyes. For humans they use contacts :-) >PETA is definitly a problem :-) Gaak. I was thinking prism-glasses maybe bolted on that translate the vis field. Its ok for undergrads so its ok for cats. After the experiments, the cats will be ok, as I assume they're sufficiently plastic, unless you do brain staining on them. :-(Or your policy is the Tim McVeigh treatment. Cool stuff, though my domestic feline wants to know where you live. PS: have you identified the "can opener sound" brain-center yet? Cats manage biometrics and reputation better than most human systems..
