Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
If they do it under threat, then it is not voluntary. They may have come here voluntarily, but that was probably due to the false advertising that America is a Land of Opportunity(tm) and other such rot that our country has used to sucker people to come here. Oh please. So the streets aren't paved with gold. So the coyotes oversell it to get more revenue. Once they get here, its still better than the shithole they came from. It's not like we throw up roadblocks to prevent them from going back. Hell, the INS will give em a free ride. That is like saying that just because the kid got in your car voluntarily, you are not responsible for what happened to him when you molested him. Why is it when someone has a weak argument, they throw in 'the children' as a trump card? Are you implying that people from other countries are too stupid, immature, or ignorant to think for themselves? Since it's founding the US has used immigrants to grow as a country. Sure, when they first got here we didn't give them a million bucks and the keys to the executive suite. The immigrants that got here before them have earned that for themselves. But they could see the opportunity to be that next immigrant to rise up. And no hoary Horatio Alger rags to riches story, either; just make a living where you have a house with a roof on it and a working septic system, where your kids can go to a school that isn't run by religious extremists. But I do agree that this 'permanent underclass' plan is BS. Either let them be here legally with rights, or don't. Anything else is just setup to be a unnatural force to push down local wages. -p
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 22:20, bgt wrote: On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 10:48, cubic-dog wrote: in force, because, we finally get slave, indentured servants who will either take the 90 cents and hour or be deported. This kind of rhetoric is extremely irritating. If they can be deported, they are neither slaves or indentured servants. If they voluntarily came to this country, and voluntarily accepted 90 cents/hr, If they do it under threat, then it is not voluntary. They may have come here voluntarily, but that was probably due to the false advertising that America is a Land of Opportunity(tm) and other such rot that our country has used to sucker people to come here. That is like saying that just because the kid got in your car voluntarily, you are not responsible for what happened to him when you molested him. -- Push that big, big granite sphere way up there from way down here! Gasp and sweat and pant and wheeze! Uh-oh! Feel momentum cease! Watch it tumble down and then roll the boulder up again! - The story of Sisyphus by Dr. Zeus in Frazz 12/18/2003
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
If they do it under threat, then it is not voluntary. They may have come here voluntarily, but that was probably due to the false advertising that America is a Land of Opportunity(tm) and other such rot that our country has used to sucker people to come here. Oh please. So the streets aren't paved with gold. So the coyotes oversell it to get more revenue. Once they get here, its still better than the shithole they came from. It's not like we throw up roadblocks to prevent them from going back. Hell, the INS will give em a free ride. That is like saying that just because the kid got in your car voluntarily, you are not responsible for what happened to him when you molested him. Why is it when someone has a weak argument, they throw in 'the children' as a trump card? Are you implying that people from other countries are too stupid, immature, or ignorant to think for themselves? Since it's founding the US has used immigrants to grow as a country. Sure, when they first got here we didn't give them a million bucks and the keys to the executive suite. The immigrants that got here before them have earned that for themselves. But they could see the opportunity to be that next immigrant to rise up. And no hoary Horatio Alger rags to riches story, either; just make a living where you have a house with a roof on it and a working septic system, where your kids can go to a school that isn't run by religious extremists. But I do agree that this 'permanent underclass' plan is BS. Either let them be here legally with rights, or don't. Anything else is just setup to be a unnatural force to push down local wages. -p
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 10:48, cubic-dog wrote: in force, because, we finally get slave, indentured servants who will either take the 90 cents and hour or be deported. This kind of rhetoric is extremely irritating. If they can be deported, they are neither slaves or indentured servants. If they voluntarily came to this country, and voluntarily accepted 90 cents/hr,
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, bgt wrote: On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 00:20, bgt wrote: On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 10:48, cubic-dog wrote: in force, because, we finally get slave, indentured servants who will either take the 90 cents and hour or be deported. This kind of rhetoric is extremely irritating. If they can be deported, they are neither slaves or indentured servants. ... Anyway... be productive or be deported does not constitute I don't think I said that, you put it in quotes, implying I did. It's an okay paraphrase though, so we'll take it like that. More like I said, without regard to what you DEALT for, the is no impetus on the man to pay what was agreed to. If you don't like it, you will be deported. This does a nice job of creating a new, even lower class. It substantially lowers the bar for wage negotiation. The US Department of Labor has already published guides for business outlining how to avoid paying overtime. http://www.thetip.org/art_689_icle.html This new work of the Bush, just really helps cap the issue. The ditch diggers in question, were -as a group- being paid (I asked) $500 to put in that run of conduit. As there were six of them, and it took a couple of days, well, do the math. Much cheaper than renting a ditchwitch and operator. They had done this before, and would do it again. Some runs go better than others, and I'll be some days they might actually make as much as a 7/11 clerk. But not many. What happens when the man arbitrarily decides to stiff them from their payment? Will the labor department come to mitigate? Or will immigration come to deport? What's more likely under the proposed guest worker rule? slavery, and neither does the fact that someone is willing to work for substantially less than you. In fact, it is only Free people who can sell their product (including their own labor) for whatever they want (and, obviously, that someone will pay). Who can sell their labour for whatever they want? I am only aware of folks who can sell their labour for what the market will bear. As long as they only want the status quo, well, then that's fine. When the market will only bear 90p, Well, making the note on the townhouse is gonna be kinda tricky, ain't it? --bgt
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 14:15, cubic-dog wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, bgt wrote: ... Anyway... be productive or be deported does not constitute I don't think I said that, you put it in quotes, implying I did. It's an okay paraphrase though, so we'll take it like that. Yes, it was intended as a paraphrase. More like I said, without regard to what you DEALT for, the is no impetus on the man to pay what was agreed to. If you don't like it, you will be deported. This does a nice job of creating For currently illegal immigrants, you're right: the contract (the agreement to do x work for y money is a contract, however informal) is illegal and so unenforceable. This leaves these workers open to theft by stiffing as you put it. The guest worker program will legalize these immigrants (for a period of time), so the contract will be legal and become enforceable. Why do you think the guest worker program will make it worse in this regard for currently illegal immigrants? This is the weakest objection to this program I've heard yet. The ditch diggers in question, were -as a group- being paid (I asked) $500 to put in that run of conduit. As there were six of them, and it took a couple of days, well, do the math. Much cheaper than renting a ditchwitch and operator. They had done this before, and would do it again. Some runs go better than others, and I'll be some days they might actually make as much as a 7/11 clerk. But not many. If both parties agreed and adhered to these terms, I see no problem with any of that. Employers and employees should be free to negotiate their own terms without the coercive interference by the State (via minimum wage, overtime, maximum work week, etc regulations). What happens when the man arbitrarily decides to stiff them from their payment? Will the labor department come to mitigate? Or will immigration come to deport? What's more likely under the proposed guest worker rule? See above for my answers to this. for substantially less than you. In fact, it is only Free people who can sell their product (including their own labor) for whatever they want (and, obviously, that someone will pay). Who can sell their labour for whatever they want? I am only aware of folks who can sell their labour for what the market will bear. Oh please, did you not read the last 6 words of my sentence? (and, obviously, that someone will pay) means what the market will bear. Of *course* there has to be a willing buyer to complete the transaction. --bgt
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Jan 14, 2004, at 3:51 PM, bgt wrote: On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 14:15, cubic-dog wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, bgt wrote: ... Anyway... be productive or be deported does not constitute I don't think I said that, you put it in quotes, implying I did. It's an okay paraphrase though, so we'll take it like that. Yes, it was intended as a paraphrase. More like I said, without regard to what you DEALT for, the is no impetus on the man to pay what was agreed to. If you don't like it, you will be deported. This does a nice job of creating For currently illegal immigrants, you're right: the contract (the agreement to do x work for y money is a contract, however informal) is illegal and so unenforceable. This leaves these workers open to theft by stiffing as you put it. Most workers are paid bimonthly, and many are paid weekly. Some day laborers are even paid daily. This makes the float a maximum of a couple of weeks, and more likely a week or less. Any laborer who has not been paid can walk away and be out the week or less in pay. (Personally, I would not want to be an employer who stiffed a Mexican...one might find one's tires slashed or one's daughter's throat slashed ear to ear...or just a bullet in the dark. This kind of stiffing such as you two are debating almost never happens, for various good reasons. The guest worker program will legalize these immigrants (for a period of time), so the contract will be legal and become enforceable. Why do you think the guest worker program will make it worse in this regard for currently illegal immigrants? This is the weakest objection to this program I've heard yet. The wholesale opening of the door to those who cut in line (ahead of those from England, Denmark, Romania, India, etc. who waited patiently in line by submitting their immigration requests) is deplorable. Either open the borders or not, but surely don't reward those who cut in line. Oh, and the march of 2.5 million Mexicans and Latins from the south is already underway...they got the message the last time when the Simpson-Mazzoli one time amnesty, just this one time! happened, and millions more arrived. Now that the new Mexican immigration is happening, several million more will arrive. By the way, there is no acceptable hospital in the region near me because legal but won't pay their bills Mexicans have utterly swamped the W*ts*nv*ll* Community Hospital. It is unable to collect from those who show up at its emergency room (and must be treated, by law) that it is now running short on so many things that it is not safe to use. (They'll probably threaten to sue me, so I'll disguise the above name.) I'd favor letting all in who want to get in, provided nobody demands that I pay for any services for them. Any services, not just few services. There are a couple of billion in the world who would gladly come to America if the borders were open...I'm not exaggerating at all. Between 1 and 2 billion, at least. Let them come. But let them starve when 950 million of them find no work and a limit to charity by the do-gooder minority. Let piles of their corpses fertilize our crops...it's why God made bulldozers. --Tim May Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout --Unknown Usenet Poster
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, bgt wrote: On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 00:20, bgt wrote: On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 10:48, cubic-dog wrote: in force, because, we finally get slave, indentured servants who will either take the 90 cents and hour or be deported. This kind of rhetoric is extremely irritating. If they can be deported, they are neither slaves or indentured servants. ... Anyway... be productive or be deported does not constitute I don't think I said that, you put it in quotes, implying I did. It's an okay paraphrase though, so we'll take it like that. More like I said, without regard to what you DEALT for, the is no impetus on the man to pay what was agreed to. If you don't like it, you will be deported. This does a nice job of creating a new, even lower class. It substantially lowers the bar for wage negotiation. The US Department of Labor has already published guides for business outlining how to avoid paying overtime. http://www.thetip.org/art_689_icle.html This new work of the Bush, just really helps cap the issue. The ditch diggers in question, were -as a group- being paid (I asked) $500 to put in that run of conduit. As there were six of them, and it took a couple of days, well, do the math. Much cheaper than renting a ditchwitch and operator. They had done this before, and would do it again. Some runs go better than others, and I'll be some days they might actually make as much as a 7/11 clerk. But not many. What happens when the man arbitrarily decides to stiff them from their payment? Will the labor department come to mitigate? Or will immigration come to deport? What's more likely under the proposed guest worker rule? slavery, and neither does the fact that someone is willing to work for substantially less than you. In fact, it is only Free people who can sell their product (including their own labor) for whatever they want (and, obviously, that someone will pay). Who can sell their labour for whatever they want? I am only aware of folks who can sell their labour for what the market will bear. As long as they only want the status quo, well, then that's fine. When the market will only bear 90p, Well, making the note on the townhouse is gonna be kinda tricky, ain't it? --bgt
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tim May wrote: On Jan 1, 2004, at 8:51 AM, Tyler Durden wrote: I'll tell you a story. Back in the late 1980s I taught at a notorious HS in Bedford snip snip Second, we are fast-moving toward a society and economy where only those who _wanted_ to study math and science by the time they were in high school will have anything more than a menial, makework job. Now whether they go the full course and get a college degree or advanced degree is not so much the point as it is that they were intrinsically interested. Shoot, Sign me UP for that menial, makework job. For the first time in YEARS, I finally saw ditchdiggers at work, Guess it's finally cheaper again to use guest workers than to rent a ditchwitch. The equipment rental houses aren't too happy about that I'll bet. So much for the information super-hiway. The guest workers were pulling conduit for fiber through the muck. Mom always said I was going to be a ditch digger, I was cool with that. Turns out, that it made more sense to build equipment that did a much better job at ditching in less time than manual ditching. Nearly half a century later, I ended up a network administrator. Kinda like digging ditches, but not as healthy. Now, thanks to the Best and Brightest, The elite, and the fundamental masters of the universe, where all folks get what they deserve, Good honest, hard labor, that was so hard to find, -because it makes so much more sense to take that can-do redneck tool-spinning attitude and put it to work building equipment rather than wasting it on the task better served by equipment- is now back, and back in force, because, we finally get slave, indentured servants who will either take the 90 cents and hour or be deported. For a short while, it was almost possible to earn a living wage doing real work. Oh well, that's all over now. As for math and physics, I like to say I audited Feyman's freshman physics lecture series because I bought the CDs and listend to them alot, but without a good functional understanding of physics and math, you are not as able to do good, productive physical work, be that swamping, or ditch digging. On the other hand, I have always thought that someone who can sink a 16d nail in 3 swings of a hammer is a damned site more useful in a *society* than yet still another chip designer. We got to the fucking moon without chip designers, and what have we done since? nothing worth remembering.
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Jan 1, 2004, at 8:20 PM, J.A. Terranson wrote: Tim May wrote... In conclusion, your Bedford-Stuy student who doesn't see the point to studying math will never be a math researcher, or a physicist, or a chemist, or anything else of that sort. So no point in trying to convince him to study his math. Why the BedSty student Tim? Perhaps because I was replying to Tyler Durden, where he wrote: I'll tell you a story. Back in the late 1980s I taught at a notorious HS in Bedford Stuyvesant. 90% of my students were black. You liberals see racism even when people reply to the points raised by others. --Tim May
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
At 12:14 AM 1/1/04 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: Of course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are an untouchable. You get it because you didn't do well in school, or you dropped out, and you could have been successful if you had just tried harder. Seems that someone has a problem grasping natural variation. Perhaps you would prefer that the majority starve, or live in pre-agricultural poverty, rather than accept a comfy (if low-status) niche made possible by large foreheads. Tsk tsk.
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Jan 2, 2004, at 12:03 AM, Tim May wrote: So Kennedy's liberals scratched their heads and came up with a new plan. Relief would be converted to a series of state and national programs, no longer handled locally. And the bad connotations of relief would be changed by the new and positive name entitlement. Money handed out to various folks would be their entitlement, something they were _owed_. Other related names would be social services and, of course, liberal mention of children and nutrition. Ergo programs like WIC (Women, Infants, and Children). Ergo, Head Start. And I should have elaborated on the family system effects of the new welfare system: since the entitlements were not given to families with husbands in the household, this made marriage a bad idea for those wanting to get welfare. A young girl could go from the bottom of the pecking order in her household to the top in her own apartment, with an income from welfare that increased with each baby she had. So we had the spectacle of 14-year-old girls being given their own apartments by Big Brother, paid for with taxes taken from working suckers. The effects of this are so corrosive as to practically be unexplainable to normal people: households solely dependent on handouts from government, fathers completely absent (except in sneak visits), a disrespect for those who work, the boys in the household anxious to hang out on the streets below rather than be with Momma, the crime that comes from this kind of hanging out, self-loathing (it seems likely) that leads to lashing out at whitey, and a perpetuating cycle as the young girls seek to get their own cribs so the process can repeat and expand. This is why so many black families today are into their third or even fourth generation of welfare life. By the way, part of the reason Kennedy wanted to remove the stigma of relief was because the decade of the 1950s had been especially bad for the urban poor. Many blacks had moved from farms in the south to cities like Washington, New York, Cincinnati, Oakland, Chicago, etc. Partly they had moved to work in factories during the war, partly because automation on the farms had displaced manual laborers, partly because they heard of the success of other blacks who had moved north. But they were moving into the cities just as the whites were leaving. (And the whites were not leaving because the blacks were coming in...rather, the new jobs were increasingly in the suburbs, and as highways and freeways and ring roads were built around cities, and as cars became plentiful, and as families grew, many of the city-born whites were moving into the massive new subdivisions being built out in the suburbs.) So the blacks got to the inner cities with mostly only manual labor skills, just as such jobs were vanishing under automation and through a shift to the suburbs. Now what government _should have done_ circa the early 1960s is this: Nothing. Except to cut taxes to encourage even more business, and to maybe point out to blacks that they should slow down their move to the cities. (By the way, the same move to the cities was happening in other countries, which is why Mexico City now has something like 20 million residents, most of them very poor.) But instead of letting the dice fall where they may, letting the bad effects discourage other blacks from moving to the cities, Kennedy set his advisors to the problem of solving urban poverty. They expanded welfare and entitlements, ostensibly because America could afford it (the 1950s having been a prosperous period). Precisely the wrong thing to do. It encouraged even more blacks to flock to the cities, and once started, once established, the welfare spigot could not be turned off, could not be denied to the newcomers. Whoops. And none of the planners, I expect, saw the effects of the law of unintended consequences, that they would disincentive blacks from seeking hard jobs, that multigenerational welfare would become the norm, and that blacks would be seen by those doing so well in the rapidly-expanding, prosperous suburbs as some kind of throwback to plantation life. The various demands by black leaders, the reverse racism (honkie mofo), the whole hatred for learning (reading be for whitey) all combined with the welfare state in these cities to create this gutterization of the negro. Even when the full magnitude of this developing train wreck was obvious even to the liberals, they didn't pull back from the brink and say Let's stop this train wreck. Nope, they said the problem was not enough money. So benefits were expanded in the 1970s, with more Medicare, Medical, larger payments...the idea was to pay enough to get people back on their feet. But of course, human nature being what it is, most took the higher payments and bought nicer stuff, hence the color televisions found in every crib. And the huge influxes of Mexicans during the 70s and 80s
Fwd: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
Second of the items lne.com never sent to the list (that I have seen, 9-10 hours later). Begin forwarded message: From: Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: January 2, 2004 1:02:20 AM PST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey On Jan 2, 2004, at 12:03 AM, Tim May wrote: So Kennedy's liberals scratched their heads and came up with a new plan. Relief would be converted to a series of state and national programs, no longer handled locally. And the bad connotations of relief would be changed by the new and positive name entitlement. Money handed out to various folks would be their entitlement, something they were _owed_. Other related names would be social services and, of course, liberal mention of children and nutrition. Ergo programs like WIC (Women, Infants, and Children). Ergo, Head Start. And I should have elaborated on the family system effects of the new welfare system: since the entitlements were not given to families with husbands in the household, this made marriage a bad idea for those wanting to get welfare. A young girl could go from the bottom of the pecking order in her household to the top in her own apartment, with an income from welfare that increased with each baby she had. So we had the spectacle of 14-year-old girls being given their own apartments by Big Brother, paid for with taxes taken from working suckers. The effects of this are so corrosive as to practically be unexplainable to normal people: households solely dependent on handouts from government, fathers completely absent (except in sneak visits), a disrespect for those who work, the boys in the household anxious to hang out on the streets below rather than be with Momma, the crime that comes from this kind of hanging out, self-loathing (it seems likely) that leads to lashing out at whitey, and a perpetuating cycle as the young girls seek to get their own cribs so the process can repeat and expand. This is why so many black families today are into their third or even fourth generation of welfare life. By the way, part of the reason Kennedy wanted to remove the stigma of relief was because the decade of the 1950s had been especially bad for the urban poor. Many blacks had moved from farms in the south to cities like Washington, New York, Cincinnati, Oakland, Chicago, etc. Partly they had moved to work in factories during the war, partly because automation on the farms had displaced manual laborers, partly because they heard of the success of other blacks who had moved north. But they were moving into the cities just as the whites were leaving. (And the whites were not leaving because the blacks were coming in...rather, the new jobs were increasingly in the suburbs, and as highways and freeways and ring roads were built around cities, and as cars became plentiful, and as families grew, many of the city-born whites were moving into the massive new subdivisions being built out in the suburbs.) So the blacks got to the inner cities with mostly only manual labor skills, just as such jobs were vanishing under automation and through a shift to the suburbs. Now what government _should have done_ circa the early 1960s is this: Nothing. Except to cut taxes to encourage even more business, and to maybe point out to blacks that they should slow down their move to the cities. (By the way, the same move to the cities was happening in other countries, which is why Mexico City now has something like 20 million residents, most of them very poor.) But instead of letting the dice fall where they may, letting the bad effects discourage other blacks from moving to the cities, Kennedy set his advisors to the problem of solving urban poverty. They expanded welfare and entitlements, ostensibly because America could afford it (the 1950s having been a prosperous period). Precisely the wrong thing to do. It encouraged even more blacks to flock to the cities, and once started, once established, the welfare spigot could not be turned off, could not be denied to the newcomers. Whoops. And none of the planners, I expect, saw the effects of the law of unintended consequences, that they would disincentive blacks from seeking hard jobs, that multigenerational welfare would become the norm, and that blacks would be seen by those doing so well in the rapidly-expanding, prosperous suburbs as some kind of throwback to plantation life. The various demands by black leaders, the reverse racism (honkie mofo), the whole hatred for learning (reading be for whitey) all combined with the welfare state in these cities to create this gutterization of the negro. Even when the full magnitude of this developing train wreck was obvious even to the liberals, they didn't pull back from the brink and say Let's stop this train wreck. Nope, they said the problem was not enough money. So benefits were expanded in the 1970s, with more Medicare, Medical, larger payments...the idea
RE: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
At 11:51 AM 1/1/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: Stay In School! In other words, schools keep the crime rates down, as is a well-known statistic. They are basically storage facilities. For real schools we white folks with $$$ can move out to the suburbs or send our kids to private school. Right. And the value of an uneducated result of an unaborted fuck 18 years ago is so useful that schooling is unnecessary, just part of the Man (tm) keeping the People (tm) down. Ayup. Plenty of grubs to be dug if that's what you prefer. The rest of us prefer personal capitalism, ie investment, ie education. There's a reason the Jews and Asians (etc) suceed and other --often more fluent-- cultures don't, and it has to do with the value some cultures put on education. The truth will set you free, or not. Your choice.
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tim May wrote: A few moments of thought will show the connection between replicators and general assemblers. A general assembler can make another general assembler, hence all general assemblers are replicators. And in fact this is necessary to make mechanosynthesis nanotech viable, as otherwise it takes all the multibillion dollar wafer fabs in the world, if they could make nanoscale things, to make some scum on the bottom of a test tube. Or a few-dollar fermentation tanks with suitable bacteria, once its genome is tweaked in required way. Who ever said that the nanoparticles we need can't be proteins or organic molecules with required shape/properties? If viral particles can self-assemble from host-cell-synthetized proteins, if complicated structures like bacterial propulsion systems - or even whole plants - can be formed, why not nanomechanical systems? Why bother with assembling machines when they could be grown? I hope I didn't screw up my understanding of nanosynthesis. If it is build anything you want by telling the general assembler, then this won't work and would need a lab; but for mass-producing nnoparticles, eg. surface coatings or elements for camera or memory arrays, biotech should be good enough.
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Jan 1, 2004, at 7:44 PM, Thomas Shaddack wrote: On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tim May wrote: A few moments of thought will show the connection between replicators and general assemblers. A general assembler can make another general assembler, hence all general assemblers are replicators. And in fact this is necessary to make mechanosynthesis nanotech viable, as otherwise it takes all the multibillion dollar wafer fabs in the world, if they could make nanoscale things, to make some scum on the bottom of a test tube. Or a few-dollar fermentation tanks with suitable bacteria, once its genome is tweaked in required way. Who ever said that the nanoparticles we need can't be proteins or organic molecules with required shape/properties? If viral particles can self-assemble from host-cell-synthetized proteins, if complicated structures like bacterial propulsion systems - or even whole plants - can be formed, why not nanomechanical systems? Why bother with assembling machines when they could be grown? I hope I didn't screw up my understanding of nanosynthesis. If it is build anything you want by telling the general assembler, then this won't work and would need a lab; but for mass-producing nnoparticles, eg. surface coatings or elements for camera or memory arrays, biotech should be good enough. Which is why I was careful to say mechanosynthesis and even to qualify the type of replicator as Drexler-style. We've had systems which can replicate in 25 minutes or so for as long as we've existed. But making bread is not the same thing as making computers, or Boeing 747s, or non-bread kinds of food. Specialized biologicals making specialized things is probably where nanotechnology will be a commercial success, but it just ain't real nanotech. --Tim May
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Eric Cordian wrote: In the real world, a society can not consist 100% of chip designers. It also requires cooks, toilet and floor scrubbers, and people who lug concrete in wheelbarrows up stairs. Sure, those are still needed. Though I wouldn't be so sure that toilet and floor scrubbers will be needed anymore 20 years from now. Some countries, like the US and Japan, have as a part of their political doctrine that everyone has the opportunity to be wealthy and successful, so they can't openly have a class system. Of course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are an untouchable. You get it because you didn't do well in school, or you dropped out, and you could have been successful if you had just tried harder. This is just bull shit. You don't have to do well in school to do well in the job market. You just need to have the right kind of skills to do well in the job market; and if the companies not hiring you are stupid and only looking at your (school) credentials and not what you know, you can always put up your own company and succeed that way. Truly that mentality of school worship, which you talk about, makes me sick. It's a myth that you need to do well in school in order to make it out there. Of course, it's a zero sum game. The bottom X% will always be shit-haulers, and the school is just making the proles fight with each other over who those shit-haulers will be. The fact is that the society can't make everyone successful, and the success of the few is at the expense of the failure of the many, determined by the uncompensated rat race and endless toil on the wheel of public education. Oh, but it is not a zero sum game. Of course the bottom X% will always be shit-haulers, sure. But here's the catch. If the bottom X% are people who could do some complicated work that would earn them $100 000 a year, then the shit haulers will have to be paid more than that amount a year. Or no one will apply for those shitty jobs. The basics of economics: If there's a shortage of something, markets tend to rise up the value until the demand and supply meet. Exactly same does go for unregulated job market. The US is an excellent example of this. The AFT and NEA together are the biggest labor organization in the country. THe school system functions not to educate, but as a tool of inculcation in collectivist thinking, and a awarder of certificates which give one the right to work. Hell yeah. Public school system should be abolished right now. Hmm, I'm not quite as fanatical on these things as Tim is (who probably would want to shoot all those teachers and administrators), but I do find public schools to be something quite horrible. Schools don't educate, but merely serve as a filter for employers to locate those individuals who aren't going to make trouble at the factory. No, no, no. Public schools don't educate. Their purpose is to teach obedience and understanding that a single person cannot do without the government. Thus the nooks in Washington can get to keep their power. Now in a world where most jobs are not skilled people individually producing something in demand, but are the very lowest form of commoditized labor, the opportunity to screw such dissenters probably exceeds their ability to avoid being sent made to the back of the line. You really think there is this big conspiracy that covers all the companies working in the US, which keeps these black lists and exists just to screw those who don't like the system? How about just saying that if one is lazy and does not do his work well, he might be screwed - and that is frankly a problem of his own making. You take up on a contract, you keep it. Nonetheless, I think we do such people a disservice when we attribute their dislike of the education business to some sort of culturally ingrained sloth, and characterize them as looking to live on handouts of other peoples tax money. Nonetheless, I think we do such people a great disservice if we do not show that their culture has a very bad bias against learning and understanding. Such a bias, if it exists, should not be hidden, or shunted upon; it should be brought to broad day light and shown in all its stupidity. -- Mikko Särelä Emperor Bonaparte: Where does God fit into your system? Pièrre Simon Laplace: Sire, I have no need for that hypothesis.
Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
Tim May observes: Meanwhile, the black folk kept listening to Rev. Jess Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton tell them that they were owed reparations, that they were owed a series of entitlements. No suprise that a large fraction of negro teens subscribe to the view that reading be for whitey. In fact, negroes have invented a whole series of insult terms for those who study too much, for those who break out of the field worker status: Uncle Toms, Oreos, etc. Imagine where the Asians would be if Asian kids who did well in science and math were taunted as race traitors? Math be for whitey. Reading be for whitey. We be owed repa-ations for diskiminashun!! In the real world, a society can not consist 100% of chip designers. It also requires cooks, toilet and floor scrubbers, and people who lug concrete in wheelbarrows up stairs. This is no problem in a society with an explicit class system. You just assign jobs to people based on their social class, with the untouchables getting the shit-hauling and scrubbing jobs, and the more attractive jobs going to their betters. Some countries, like the US and Japan, have as a part of their political doctrine that everyone has the opportunity to be wealthy and successful, so they can't openly have a class system. Of course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are an untouchable. You get it because you didn't do well in school, or you dropped out, and you could have been successful if you had just tried harder. Of course, it's a zero sum game. The bottom X% will always be shit-haulers, and the school is just making the proles fight with each other over who those shit-haulers will be. The fact is that the society can't make everyone successful, and the success of the few is at the expense of the failure of the many, determined by the uncompensated rat race and endless toil on the wheel of public education. The US is an excellent example of this. The AFT and NEA together are the biggest labor organization in the country. THe school system functions not to educate, but as a tool of inculcation in collectivist thinking, and a awarder of certificates which give one the right to work. Schools don't educate, but merely serve as a filter for employers to locate those individuals who aren't going to make trouble at the factory. A well known experiment is to take some 10th graders, and divide them randomly into two groups. Send one to college, and make the others finish the remaining two years of high school. THere will be no statistically significant difference in their college performance, thus demonstrating that public schools do not teach, but merely act as filters through which only the most talented and sociable can pass. Now, minorities in this country, including almost all Asians, and quite a few blacks, have gotten with this program that education is the way out of poverty, and have successfully turned the vicious education-based class system to their advantage, by trying to beat the dominant class at their own game, with varying degrees of success. This has required them to refrain from criticizing the system itself, because no one wins a beauty contest by having a bad attitude. I think that mentality is changing, and when you hear comments like Reading be for whitey, what is being said is not that literacy and calculus and physics and chemistry are bad, in and of themselves, but that a system which rewards only getting ahead by playing along is not a arena in which these people choose to compete. Learning by doing is always vastly superior to learning by listening to someone else talk about doing. Now in a world where most jobs are not skilled people individually producing something in demand, but are the very lowest form of commoditized labor, the opportunity to screw such dissenters probably exceeds their ability to avoid being sent made to the back of the line. Nonetheless, I think we do such people a disservice when we attribute their dislike of the education business to some sort of culturally ingrained sloth, and characterize them as looking to live on handouts of other peoples tax money. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
Tim May wrote... Because the Jews and negroes have demanded that all students be taught stuff they obviously will never use. Most inner city mutants should be taught practical skills, not abstract stuff their previous education has been bereft of. Well, I don't know who's responsible, but teaching what basically amounts to a liberal arts cirriculum is almost certainly useless in the inner cities, and black kids know this...they want something they can USE. Things like authomotive repair or, perhaps, airline baggage screening probably makes a lot more sense. I don't give a shit whether they're fully human or not. I only care that they stop stealing from me, that liberal Jews stop saying that my taxes have to be increased to support these fully human bags of shit. Well, this is where you lose a lot of credibility on this list, despite your sometimes farily acute technical observations. Let's just say that your 'philosophy' has concluded that it's probably better for the useless eaters be burned off, and that this would be good for the planet (the scary thing is that it's becomming obvious that in the near future neither the planet nor human society will really need 6 billion or more people). So this is your philosophy...fine. But you seem to have little or no emotion or sympathy towards those 'lumpen proletariat' (cue commentary on term by James Donald)...in other words, these are people who love/hate/fear/lust/eat just like you, and who don't regard themselves as 'useless', and yet it would seem that history just might pass them by, and that there may be a large segment of human population that will (in the short run) be marginalized, and in the long run be wiped out (according to your philosophies), apparently in some terrible and painful cataclysm. That your philosophies seemed to have erased any interhuman emotion you may have in this context seems strange. And no, I'm not suggesting that you cry your way out of your ideas, but recognize that if your ideas are correct, they're tragic. That which is 'inevitable' and also cataclysmic and (arguably) avoidable may also easily be tragic. Hell...that's probably the very definition of tragic, and in the most pessimistic of appraisals (ie, yours) the fate of American black folks (with many, possibly millions of exceptions) might easily be tragic, and that's a shame, like all human suffering. Then your education in physics about von Neumann is sorely lacking. Von Neumann spend part of several years investigating self-replicating machines, using some ideas of Ulam and others. Well-covered in the cellular automata literature. As you can probably tell, I've never read many secondary or tertiary sources. (ie, as a physicist I've always considered it of dubious usefulness to read ABOUT physics...) I've only read the few more famous von Neumann journal articles I've come across w.r.t. cellular automata...I actually thought he had only written two or three, and I don't remember his ideas of self-replicating machines as including something like a GA, but then again it's easily possible I didn't pick up on the ramifications of what I was reading (which is granted when I was much younger). Snoop is razzlekamazzled by the negroes, who have the money they stole from gullible whites, which is reason enough for niggers, whiggers, and chiggers to all be jivin' like daze shit. Well, perhaps he's just wise to his market. Those who steal need killing. Killing the guilty is about to get a lot more efficient. Billions in the world need killing, and tens of millions in the U.S. are part of this. If true, this is tragic. You might argue that it's necessary, good and inevitable, but it's still tragic. Some of these people will be living lives of very high quality, despite their need for killing. If you got out more, you might know that. -TD _ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Jan 1, 2004, at 12:50 PM, Tyler Durden wrote: Tim May wrote... First, please stop including the full text of the message you are replying to. Learn to use an editor, whether you ultimately top-post or bottom-post to edited fragments. I actually do this for a reason. If I'm not doing a line-by-line response (or sometimes even if I am), I want the original post from which I am excerpting to be visible, so that it can be referred to and determined I am not taking this particular quote out of context. The world has had well over ten years to adjust to using editors to supply sufficient context. However, the fact is that the school system sucks. It's a joke. Repeat offenders get bounced from school to school, wrecking classes and the environment everywhere they go. As demanded by the negroes and their Jew speaker-to-negroes handlers. (A high school teacher of mine pointed out that when someone demands something, reach for your gun. She left teaching not long after.) Teachers in most states have 25 classroom hours a week, a number matched nowhere in the world (as far as I've ever heard), and THAT'S in addition to homeroom and other duties. The cirriculum is a silly joke, watered down and watered down so that only someone who never shows up couldn't graduate. (And in black schools you'd be suprised how many times I've heard 'these kids can't learn...don't try'.) Because the Jews and negroes have demanded that all students be taught stuff they obviously will never use. Most innerr city mutants should be taught practical skills, not abstract stuff their previous education has been bereft of. So your whole burnoff of the eaters theme misses one critical element: direct contact with kids. If you yourself had seen and met kids you KNEW might actually have quite a talent for math, YES EVEN YOU might be tempted to give a crap, and see if just one or two might somehow be inspiried merely to do some homework. This is particularly true when you realize that you actually LIKE some of these kids, which are as fully human as you are, by the way. I don't give a shit whether they're fully human or not. I only care that they stop stealing from me, that liberal Jews stop saying that my taxes have to be increased to support these fully human bags of shit. The parallel I like is one we developed (in Ted Kaehler's nanotechnology study group in the early 90s) for looking at what a society and economy might look like where the costs of material production are as close to zero as one might imagine. That is, a society with full-blown general assemblers, i.e., von Neumann replicators at the molecular, mechano-synthesis, Drexler-type scale. How would goods be produced and sold? How would markets exist/ I don't remember reading any von Neumann where he discusses the idea of general assemblersI'm still not convinced the general physics of that idea works out, and I believe Freeman Dyson has had some similar doubts. But despite that there's a point here... Then your education in physics about von Neumann is sorely lacking. Von Neumann spend part of several years investigating self-replicating machines, using some ideas of Ulam and others. Well-covered in the cellular automata literature. In science fiction, one will find the general assembler literally referred to as the von Neumann probe. Cf. 35-year old fiction by Saberhagen on Berserkers, or slightly more recent fiction by Roger Macbride Allen and others, for example. Von Neumann machines are more than just non-functional bottleneck machines. As for nanotech, I wasn't endorsing it, just noting the context. My skepticism is noted in Crandall's book on nanotech. * The society we are heading towards is one of an increasingly sharp division between the skilled and in demand end of the spectrum and the bulk of droids who have few skills in demand. I've also witnessed this trend, but I currently believe it only holds in certain segments. There are various craft industries (as I call them) where this equation seems to be held in suspension. Like it or not, hip hop is one of those, though I suppose you could argue that the number of hip-hop 'artists' that make it is tiny compared to the audience. But the point is that in a craft industry, we're really referring to specific and local tastes, as opposed to Darwinian selection (ie, the 'most fit'). In a craft there may be room for many to contribute. (Other examples of craft industries are US high-end audio, the wine industry, high-end marijuana, organic foods and cheeses, and the current German-centered board game renassaiance.) What's desired in such an envornment is not necessarily the best/fastest/brightest, but something with a particularly 'quality' that corresponds to local vagaries of culture and taste. (At least, there's no other way to explain the success of Snoop Doggy Dog...) Snoop is razzlekamazzled by the negroes, who have the money they stole from
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tyler Durden wrote: a whole lot of really good points elided As you can probably tell, I've never read many secondary or tertiary sources. I have a very hard time believeing that anyone would consider VN a secondary or tertiary source. (ie, as a physicist I've always considered it of dubious usefulness to read ABOUT physics...) I've only read the few more famous von Neumann journal articles I've come across w.r.t. cellular automata...I actually thought he had only written two or three, That's only because he's hard reading :-) -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm
RE: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
Well I be darned if Mr May hasn't inspired a major burst of eloquence, between this response and Mr Young's. As for this comment: Schools don't educate, but merely serve as a filter for employers to locate those individuals who aren't going to make trouble at the factory. At best. In the inner cities the function of schools is strongly hinted at by the following well-used phrase: Stay In School! In other words, schools keep the crime rates down, as is a well-known statistic. They are basically storage facilities. For real schools we white folks with $$$ can move out to the suburbs or send our kids to private school. As for, Nonetheless, I think we do such people a disservice when we attribute their dislike of the education business to some sort of culturally ingrained sloth, and characterize them as looking to live on handouts of other peoples tax money. I basically agree with this, though no doubt there are Leaders that play on this (and the latent laziness of all teeneagers) to a tune similar to what May is saying. But in most cases, even good schools are a joke, and black folks at least realize this. Did anyone notice that there's only 1 or 2 states in the nation that still require Regents endorsements? I'll tell you a story. Back in the late 1980s I taught at a notorious HS in Bedford Stuyvesant. 90% of my students were black. I regarded few of them as stupid, but almost none of them saw the point of studying math...they just didn't see how it could benefit them, and they said this to me on a regular basis. In one class I had some relatively young and non-troublemaking students. I told them from the beginning that I would not slip the standards so they could pass...they HAD to do homework in order to pass, as that would be the only way they could practice enough for the tests. For the first couple of tests all of the non-immigrant black kids failed. But I hammered them and told them it was going to continue like this unless they did the homework and studied. I made it absolutely clear what I expected from them. By the end of the semester most of the kids were doing their homework, and passing the quizzes and tests, which I did not make easier in any way. I remember Willie Horne coming in before a test and complaining Mr Durden, I STUDIED last night!. I reached out to feel his forehead and said Willie? Are you feelin' alright? Of course, he pulled back and stifled a smile, but he got a 90. -TD From: Eric Cordian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 00:14:10 -0800 (PST) Tim May observes: Meanwhile, the black folk kept listening to Rev. Jess Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton tell them that they were owed reparations, that they were owed a series of entitlements. No suprise that a large fraction of negro teens subscribe to the view that reading be for whitey. In fact, negroes have invented a whole series of insult terms for those who study too much, for those who break out of the field worker status: Uncle Toms, Oreos, etc. Imagine where the Asians would be if Asian kids who did well in science and math were taunted as race traitors? Math be for whitey. Reading be for whitey. We be owed repa-ations for diskiminashun!! In the real world, a society can not consist 100% of chip designers. It also requires cooks, toilet and floor scrubbers, and people who lug concrete in wheelbarrows up stairs. This is no problem in a society with an explicit class system. You just assign jobs to people based on their social class, with the untouchables getting the shit-hauling and scrubbing jobs, and the more attractive jobs going to their betters. Some countries, like the US and Japan, have as a part of their political doctrine that everyone has the opportunity to be wealthy and successful, so they can't openly have a class system. Of course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are an untouchable. You get it because you didn't do well in school, or you dropped out, and you could have been successful if you had just tried harder. Of course, it's a zero sum game. The bottom X% will always be shit-haulers, and the school is just making the proles fight with each other over who those shit-haulers will be. The fact is that the society can't make everyone successful, and the success of the few is at the expense of the failure of the many, determined by the uncompensated rat race and endless toil on the wheel of public education. The US is an excellent example of this. The AFT and NEA together are the biggest labor organization in the country. THe school system functions not to educate, but as a tool of inculcation in collectivist thinking, and a awarder of certificates which give one the right to work. Schools don't educate, but merely serve
Fwd: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
I composed and sent this message, and one following it, last night. Lne.com has not yet forwarded either, 10 hours later. I checked Eric's message and he said new _subscriptions_ will no longer be accepted after 04-01-01 and mail will no no longer be forwarded after 04-01-15. Perhaps he is halting operations early. All things must end. Begin forwarded message: From: Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: January 2, 2004 12:03:39 AM PST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey On Jan 1, 2004, at 10:06 PM, Riad S. Wahby wrote: J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why the BedSty student Tim? Uhh, read more carefully. He was responding to a specific point from Tyler Durden. You have some incredible moments of lucidity and insight, and occasionally, we are the lucky recipients of these fleeting events - but then, just as sure as the sun coming over the horizon every morning of every day, you slip back into the pseudo-intellectual racist crap. What's wit dat? I don't think Tim is racist as such. He hates everyone equally. :-) But seriously, calling it racism seems wrong-headed. Racism is I hate black people because they're black. Tim hates (some, most, all?) black people because he percieves them as benefitting unfairly from his hard work. I'm pretty sure, all other things being equal, he wouldn't hate a black person who, through his own hard work and without taking a penny from the government, turned himself into a successful, tax-paying source. Or, at least, I'm not convinced he would hate such a person, which is to say I'm not convinced he's a racist. I admire many negroes. Shelby Steele, who wrote The Content of our Character, for example. And Thomas Sowell, an even more prolific author (and Stanford professor). And Niger Innes (son of the lefty Roy Innes...a lot of children of 60s liberal negroes are now libertarian or conservative, e.g., Adam Clayton Powell's son). And Clarence Thomas (who has argued forcefully that the Supremes ought to do a very thorough review of gun laws, with the hint that the right decision would be to restore the Second Amendment to first class status). And a bunch of others, including Ward Connerly, of California, who has been leading the effort to have race removed as the basis for _any_ government actions, including hiring quotas, special admissions requirements for negroes and Asians (at opposite ends of the test score spectrum), and so on. I don't admire the politics of Condie Rice and Colin Powell, but there is little doubt that they are accomplished, bright people. My problem is that negroes are 80% in solidarity on a bunch of disgusting, anti-liberty things: affirmative action, racial quotas, minority setasides (but not for successful minorities--they want limits on the number of Asians admitted to UC schools), welfare, increased benefits, etc. Further, they, as a whole, have a plantation mentality: always demanding that Massa in the Big White House give them more stuff. Instead of excelling and grabbing the stuff for themselves, as Chinese and Korean and Indian people have done in America, they think setasides and quotas and special favoritism is owed to them. I used to not care much about what they did or thought. When I entered college in 1970 I expected to mix with a bunch of different sorts of people. What I found was that the negroes all sat at the same tables in the dining halls, that whites who sat near them were chased off, and that we non-blacks, including Asians, Indians, South Americans, whites, etc., could mix with each other, but not with the Panthers. And they ghettoized themselves into Black Studies, which they had demanded a couple of years earlier and had just gotten in 1969. In 1972 they formed various militant groups on campus. One obnoxious woman named Judy became the student association president. When she didn't like a decision, she ordered the Panthers, her enforcers, to bar the doors and not let anyone out until the decision was reversed. It was. I am not exaggerating. I included this, and the theft of ASU funds, and the henchmen, and similar leftist actions by others (including the MeCHA Aztlanos), in a letter to the Regents of the University of California. It was published in the school newspaper, in a full-paged spread, and I got replies from the governor of the state, Ronald Reagan. I met with the Chancellor and he agreed that the situation at the campus was deplorable, but that in the interests of keeping the peace with the negroes and Mexicans, given the time (1973), there was little they could do. He promised that his office was looking into the allegations and already knew about most of them. When I joined Intel in 1974, I saw plenty of Chinese, Indians, a handful of Koreans and Vietnamese (more later), but only one negro engineer. And he had a major chip on his shoulder. When he was let go in one of the RIFs, he claimed discrimination on the basis
Fwd: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
Second of the items lne.com never sent to the list (that I have seen, 9-10 hours later). Begin forwarded message: From: Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: January 2, 2004 1:02:20 AM PST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey On Jan 2, 2004, at 12:03 AM, Tim May wrote: So Kennedy's liberals scratched their heads and came up with a new plan. Relief would be converted to a series of state and national programs, no longer handled locally. And the bad connotations of relief would be changed by the new and positive name entitlement. Money handed out to various folks would be their entitlement, something they were _owed_. Other related names would be social services and, of course, liberal mention of children and nutrition. Ergo programs like WIC (Women, Infants, and Children). Ergo, Head Start. And I should have elaborated on the family system effects of the new welfare system: since the entitlements were not given to families with husbands in the household, this made marriage a bad idea for those wanting to get welfare. A young girl could go from the bottom of the pecking order in her household to the top in her own apartment, with an income from welfare that increased with each baby she had. So we had the spectacle of 14-year-old girls being given their own apartments by Big Brother, paid for with taxes taken from working suckers. The effects of this are so corrosive as to practically be unexplainable to normal people: households solely dependent on handouts from government, fathers completely absent (except in sneak visits), a disrespect for those who work, the boys in the household anxious to hang out on the streets below rather than be with Momma, the crime that comes from this kind of hanging out, self-loathing (it seems likely) that leads to lashing out at whitey, and a perpetuating cycle as the young girls seek to get their own cribs so the process can repeat and expand. This is why so many black families today are into their third or even fourth generation of welfare life. By the way, part of the reason Kennedy wanted to remove the stigma of relief was because the decade of the 1950s had been especially bad for the urban poor. Many blacks had moved from farms in the south to cities like Washington, New York, Cincinnati, Oakland, Chicago, etc. Partly they had moved to work in factories during the war, partly because automation on the farms had displaced manual laborers, partly because they heard of the success of other blacks who had moved north. But they were moving into the cities just as the whites were leaving. (And the whites were not leaving because the blacks were coming in...rather, the new jobs were increasingly in the suburbs, and as highways and freeways and ring roads were built around cities, and as cars became plentiful, and as families grew, many of the city-born whites were moving into the massive new subdivisions being built out in the suburbs.) So the blacks got to the inner cities with mostly only manual labor skills, just as such jobs were vanishing under automation and through a shift to the suburbs. Now what government _should have done_ circa the early 1960s is this: Nothing. Except to cut taxes to encourage even more business, and to maybe point out to blacks that they should slow down their move to the cities. (By the way, the same move to the cities was happening in other countries, which is why Mexico City now has something like 20 million residents, most of them very poor.) But instead of letting the dice fall where they may, letting the bad effects discourage other blacks from moving to the cities, Kennedy set his advisors to the problem of solving urban poverty. They expanded welfare and entitlements, ostensibly because America could afford it (the 1950s having been a prosperous period). Precisely the wrong thing to do. It encouraged even more blacks to flock to the cities, and once started, once established, the welfare spigot could not be turned off, could not be denied to the newcomers. Whoops. And none of the planners, I expect, saw the effects of the law of unintended consequences, that they would disincentive blacks from seeking hard jobs, that multigenerational welfare would become the norm, and that blacks would be seen by those doing so well in the rapidly-expanding, prosperous suburbs as some kind of throwback to plantation life. The various demands by black leaders, the reverse racism (honkie mofo), the whole hatred for learning (reading be for whitey) all combined with the welfare state in these cities to create this gutterization of the negro. Even when the full magnitude of this developing train wreck was obvious even to the liberals, they didn't pull back from the brink and say Let's stop this train wreck. Nope, they said the problem was not enough money. So benefits were expanded in the 1970s, with more Medicare, Medical, larger payments...the idea
Fwd: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
I composed and sent this message, and one following it, last night. Lne.com has not yet forwarded either, 10 hours later. I checked Eric's message and he said new _subscriptions_ will no longer be accepted after 04-01-01 and mail will no no longer be forwarded after 04-01-15. Perhaps he is halting operations early. All things must end. Begin forwarded message: From: Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: January 2, 2004 12:03:39 AM PST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey On Jan 1, 2004, at 10:06 PM, Riad S. Wahby wrote: J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why the BedSty student Tim? Uhh, read more carefully. He was responding to a specific point from Tyler Durden. You have some incredible moments of lucidity and insight, and occasionally, we are the lucky recipients of these fleeting events - but then, just as sure as the sun coming over the horizon every morning of every day, you slip back into the pseudo-intellectual racist crap. What's wit dat? I don't think Tim is racist as such. He hates everyone equally. :-) But seriously, calling it racism seems wrong-headed. Racism is I hate black people because they're black. Tim hates (some, most, all?) black people because he percieves them as benefitting unfairly from his hard work. I'm pretty sure, all other things being equal, he wouldn't hate a black person who, through his own hard work and without taking a penny from the government, turned himself into a successful, tax-paying source. Or, at least, I'm not convinced he would hate such a person, which is to say I'm not convinced he's a racist. I admire many negroes. Shelby Steele, who wrote The Content of our Character, for example. And Thomas Sowell, an even more prolific author (and Stanford professor). And Niger Innes (son of the lefty Roy Innes...a lot of children of 60s liberal negroes are now libertarian or conservative, e.g., Adam Clayton Powell's son). And Clarence Thomas (who has argued forcefully that the Supremes ought to do a very thorough review of gun laws, with the hint that the right decision would be to restore the Second Amendment to first class status). And a bunch of others, including Ward Connerly, of California, who has been leading the effort to have race removed as the basis for _any_ government actions, including hiring quotas, special admissions requirements for negroes and Asians (at opposite ends of the test score spectrum), and so on. I don't admire the politics of Condie Rice and Colin Powell, but there is little doubt that they are accomplished, bright people. My problem is that negroes are 80% in solidarity on a bunch of disgusting, anti-liberty things: affirmative action, racial quotas, minority setasides (but not for successful minorities--they want limits on the number of Asians admitted to UC schools), welfare, increased benefits, etc. Further, they, as a whole, have a plantation mentality: always demanding that Massa in the Big White House give them more stuff. Instead of excelling and grabbing the stuff for themselves, as Chinese and Korean and Indian people have done in America, they think setasides and quotas and special favoritism is owed to them. I used to not care much about what they did or thought. When I entered college in 1970 I expected to mix with a bunch of different sorts of people. What I found was that the negroes all sat at the same tables in the dining halls, that whites who sat near them were chased off, and that we non-blacks, including Asians, Indians, South Americans, whites, etc., could mix with each other, but not with the Panthers. And they ghettoized themselves into Black Studies, which they had demanded a couple of years earlier and had just gotten in 1969. In 1972 they formed various militant groups on campus. One obnoxious woman named Judy became the student association president. When she didn't like a decision, she ordered the Panthers, her enforcers, to bar the doors and not let anyone out until the decision was reversed. It was. I am not exaggerating. I included this, and the theft of ASU funds, and the henchmen, and similar leftist actions by others (including the MeCHA Aztlanos), in a letter to the Regents of the University of California. It was published in the school newspaper, in a full-paged spread, and I got replies from the governor of the state, Ronald Reagan. I met with the Chancellor and he agreed that the situation at the campus was deplorable, but that in the interests of keeping the peace with the negroes and Mexicans, given the time (1973), there was little they could do. He promised that his office was looking into the allegations and already knew about most of them. When I joined Intel in 1974, I saw plenty of Chinese, Indians, a handful of Koreans and Vietnamese (more later), but only one negro engineer. And he had a major chip on his shoulder. When he was let go in one of the RIFs, he claimed discrimination on the basis
RE: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
At 11:51 AM 1/1/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: Stay In School! In other words, schools keep the crime rates down, as is a well-known statistic. They are basically storage facilities. For real schools we white folks with $$$ can move out to the suburbs or send our kids to private school. Right. And the value of an uneducated result of an unaborted fuck 18 years ago is so useful that schooling is unnecessary, just part of the Man (tm) keeping the People (tm) down. Ayup. Plenty of grubs to be dug if that's what you prefer. The rest of us prefer personal capitalism, ie investment, ie education. There's a reason the Jews and Asians (etc) suceed and other --often more fluent-- cultures don't, and it has to do with the value some cultures put on education. The truth will set you free, or not. Your choice.
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
At 12:14 AM 1/1/04 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: Of course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are an untouchable. You get it because you didn't do well in school, or you dropped out, and you could have been successful if you had just tried harder. Seems that someone has a problem grasping natural variation. Perhaps you would prefer that the majority starve, or live in pre-agricultural poverty, rather than accept a comfy (if low-status) niche made possible by large foreheads. Tsk tsk.
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Jan 1, 2004, at 8:20 PM, J.A. Terranson wrote: Tim May wrote... In conclusion, your Bedford-Stuy student who doesn't see the point to studying math will never be a math researcher, or a physicist, or a chemist, or anything else of that sort. So no point in trying to convince him to study his math. Why the BedSty student Tim? Perhaps because I was replying to Tyler Durden, where he wrote: I'll tell you a story. Back in the late 1980s I taught at a notorious HS in Bedford Stuyvesant. 90% of my students were black. You liberals see racism even when people reply to the points raised by others. --Tim May
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Jan 2, 2004, at 12:03 AM, Tim May wrote: So Kennedy's liberals scratched their heads and came up with a new plan. Relief would be converted to a series of state and national programs, no longer handled locally. And the bad connotations of relief would be changed by the new and positive name entitlement. Money handed out to various folks would be their entitlement, something they were _owed_. Other related names would be social services and, of course, liberal mention of children and nutrition. Ergo programs like WIC (Women, Infants, and Children). Ergo, Head Start. And I should have elaborated on the family system effects of the new welfare system: since the entitlements were not given to families with husbands in the household, this made marriage a bad idea for those wanting to get welfare. A young girl could go from the bottom of the pecking order in her household to the top in her own apartment, with an income from welfare that increased with each baby she had. So we had the spectacle of 14-year-old girls being given their own apartments by Big Brother, paid for with taxes taken from working suckers. The effects of this are so corrosive as to practically be unexplainable to normal people: households solely dependent on handouts from government, fathers completely absent (except in sneak visits), a disrespect for those who work, the boys in the household anxious to hang out on the streets below rather than be with Momma, the crime that comes from this kind of hanging out, self-loathing (it seems likely) that leads to lashing out at whitey, and a perpetuating cycle as the young girls seek to get their own cribs so the process can repeat and expand. This is why so many black families today are into their third or even fourth generation of welfare life. By the way, part of the reason Kennedy wanted to remove the stigma of relief was because the decade of the 1950s had been especially bad for the urban poor. Many blacks had moved from farms in the south to cities like Washington, New York, Cincinnati, Oakland, Chicago, etc. Partly they had moved to work in factories during the war, partly because automation on the farms had displaced manual laborers, partly because they heard of the success of other blacks who had moved north. But they were moving into the cities just as the whites were leaving. (And the whites were not leaving because the blacks were coming in...rather, the new jobs were increasingly in the suburbs, and as highways and freeways and ring roads were built around cities, and as cars became plentiful, and as families grew, many of the city-born whites were moving into the massive new subdivisions being built out in the suburbs.) So the blacks got to the inner cities with mostly only manual labor skills, just as such jobs were vanishing under automation and through a shift to the suburbs. Now what government _should have done_ circa the early 1960s is this: Nothing. Except to cut taxes to encourage even more business, and to maybe point out to blacks that they should slow down their move to the cities. (By the way, the same move to the cities was happening in other countries, which is why Mexico City now has something like 20 million residents, most of them very poor.) But instead of letting the dice fall where they may, letting the bad effects discourage other blacks from moving to the cities, Kennedy set his advisors to the problem of solving urban poverty. They expanded welfare and entitlements, ostensibly because America could afford it (the 1950s having been a prosperous period). Precisely the wrong thing to do. It encouraged even more blacks to flock to the cities, and once started, once established, the welfare spigot could not be turned off, could not be denied to the newcomers. Whoops. And none of the planners, I expect, saw the effects of the law of unintended consequences, that they would disincentive blacks from seeking hard jobs, that multigenerational welfare would become the norm, and that blacks would be seen by those doing so well in the rapidly-expanding, prosperous suburbs as some kind of throwback to plantation life. The various demands by black leaders, the reverse racism (honkie mofo), the whole hatred for learning (reading be for whitey) all combined with the welfare state in these cities to create this gutterization of the negro. Even when the full magnitude of this developing train wreck was obvious even to the liberals, they didn't pull back from the brink and say Let's stop this train wreck. Nope, they said the problem was not enough money. So benefits were expanded in the 1970s, with more Medicare, Medical, larger payments...the idea was to pay enough to get people back on their feet. But of course, human nature being what it is, most took the higher payments and bought nicer stuff, hence the color televisions found in every crib. And the huge influxes of Mexicans during the 70s and 80s
Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
Tim May observes: Meanwhile, the black folk kept listening to Rev. Jess Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton tell them that they were owed reparations, that they were owed a series of entitlements. No suprise that a large fraction of negro teens subscribe to the view that reading be for whitey. In fact, negroes have invented a whole series of insult terms for those who study too much, for those who break out of the field worker status: Uncle Toms, Oreos, etc. Imagine where the Asians would be if Asian kids who did well in science and math were taunted as race traitors? Math be for whitey. Reading be for whitey. We be owed repa-ations for diskiminashun!! In the real world, a society can not consist 100% of chip designers. It also requires cooks, toilet and floor scrubbers, and people who lug concrete in wheelbarrows up stairs. This is no problem in a society with an explicit class system. You just assign jobs to people based on their social class, with the untouchables getting the shit-hauling and scrubbing jobs, and the more attractive jobs going to their betters. Some countries, like the US and Japan, have as a part of their political doctrine that everyone has the opportunity to be wealthy and successful, so they can't openly have a class system. Of course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are an untouchable. You get it because you didn't do well in school, or you dropped out, and you could have been successful if you had just tried harder. Of course, it's a zero sum game. The bottom X% will always be shit-haulers, and the school is just making the proles fight with each other over who those shit-haulers will be. The fact is that the society can't make everyone successful, and the success of the few is at the expense of the failure of the many, determined by the uncompensated rat race and endless toil on the wheel of public education. The US is an excellent example of this. The AFT and NEA together are the biggest labor organization in the country. THe school system functions not to educate, but as a tool of inculcation in collectivist thinking, and a awarder of certificates which give one the right to work. Schools don't educate, but merely serve as a filter for employers to locate those individuals who aren't going to make trouble at the factory. A well known experiment is to take some 10th graders, and divide them randomly into two groups. Send one to college, and make the others finish the remaining two years of high school. THere will be no statistically significant difference in their college performance, thus demonstrating that public schools do not teach, but merely act as filters through which only the most talented and sociable can pass. Now, minorities in this country, including almost all Asians, and quite a few blacks, have gotten with this program that education is the way out of poverty, and have successfully turned the vicious education-based class system to their advantage, by trying to beat the dominant class at their own game, with varying degrees of success. This has required them to refrain from criticizing the system itself, because no one wins a beauty contest by having a bad attitude. I think that mentality is changing, and when you hear comments like Reading be for whitey, what is being said is not that literacy and calculus and physics and chemistry are bad, in and of themselves, but that a system which rewards only getting ahead by playing along is not a arena in which these people choose to compete. Learning by doing is always vastly superior to learning by listening to someone else talk about doing. Now in a world where most jobs are not skilled people individually producing something in demand, but are the very lowest form of commoditized labor, the opportunity to screw such dissenters probably exceeds their ability to avoid being sent made to the back of the line. Nonetheless, I think we do such people a disservice when we attribute their dislike of the education business to some sort of culturally ingrained sloth, and characterize them as looking to live on handouts of other peoples tax money. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Eric Cordian wrote: In the real world, a society can not consist 100% of chip designers. It also requires cooks, toilet and floor scrubbers, and people who lug concrete in wheelbarrows up stairs. Sure, those are still needed. Though I wouldn't be so sure that toilet and floor scrubbers will be needed anymore 20 years from now. Some countries, like the US and Japan, have as a part of their political doctrine that everyone has the opportunity to be wealthy and successful, so they can't openly have a class system. Of course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are an untouchable. You get it because you didn't do well in school, or you dropped out, and you could have been successful if you had just tried harder. This is just bull shit. You don't have to do well in school to do well in the job market. You just need to have the right kind of skills to do well in the job market; and if the companies not hiring you are stupid and only looking at your (school) credentials and not what you know, you can always put up your own company and succeed that way. Truly that mentality of school worship, which you talk about, makes me sick. It's a myth that you need to do well in school in order to make it out there. Of course, it's a zero sum game. The bottom X% will always be shit-haulers, and the school is just making the proles fight with each other over who those shit-haulers will be. The fact is that the society can't make everyone successful, and the success of the few is at the expense of the failure of the many, determined by the uncompensated rat race and endless toil on the wheel of public education. Oh, but it is not a zero sum game. Of course the bottom X% will always be shit-haulers, sure. But here's the catch. If the bottom X% are people who could do some complicated work that would earn them $100 000 a year, then the shit haulers will have to be paid more than that amount a year. Or no one will apply for those shitty jobs. The basics of economics: If there's a shortage of something, markets tend to rise up the value until the demand and supply meet. Exactly same does go for unregulated job market. The US is an excellent example of this. The AFT and NEA together are the biggest labor organization in the country. THe school system functions not to educate, but as a tool of inculcation in collectivist thinking, and a awarder of certificates which give one the right to work. Hell yeah. Public school system should be abolished right now. Hmm, I'm not quite as fanatical on these things as Tim is (who probably would want to shoot all those teachers and administrators), but I do find public schools to be something quite horrible. Schools don't educate, but merely serve as a filter for employers to locate those individuals who aren't going to make trouble at the factory. No, no, no. Public schools don't educate. Their purpose is to teach obedience and understanding that a single person cannot do without the government. Thus the nooks in Washington can get to keep their power. Now in a world where most jobs are not skilled people individually producing something in demand, but are the very lowest form of commoditized labor, the opportunity to screw such dissenters probably exceeds their ability to avoid being sent made to the back of the line. You really think there is this big conspiracy that covers all the companies working in the US, which keeps these black lists and exists just to screw those who don't like the system? How about just saying that if one is lazy and does not do his work well, he might be screwed - and that is frankly a problem of his own making. You take up on a contract, you keep it. Nonetheless, I think we do such people a disservice when we attribute their dislike of the education business to some sort of culturally ingrained sloth, and characterize them as looking to live on handouts of other peoples tax money. Nonetheless, I think we do such people a great disservice if we do not show that their culture has a very bad bias against learning and understanding. Such a bias, if it exists, should not be hidden, or shunted upon; it should be brought to broad day light and shown in all its stupidity. -- Mikko Särelä Emperor Bonaparte: Where does God fit into your system? Pièrre Simon Laplace: Sire, I have no need for that hypothesis.
RE: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
Well I be darned if Mr May hasn't inspired a major burst of eloquence, between this response and Mr Young's. As for this comment: Schools don't educate, but merely serve as a filter for employers to locate those individuals who aren't going to make trouble at the factory. At best. In the inner cities the function of schools is strongly hinted at by the following well-used phrase: Stay In School! In other words, schools keep the crime rates down, as is a well-known statistic. They are basically storage facilities. For real schools we white folks with $$$ can move out to the suburbs or send our kids to private school. As for, Nonetheless, I think we do such people a disservice when we attribute their dislike of the education business to some sort of culturally ingrained sloth, and characterize them as looking to live on handouts of other peoples tax money. I basically agree with this, though no doubt there are Leaders that play on this (and the latent laziness of all teeneagers) to a tune similar to what May is saying. But in most cases, even good schools are a joke, and black folks at least realize this. Did anyone notice that there's only 1 or 2 states in the nation that still require Regents endorsements? I'll tell you a story. Back in the late 1980s I taught at a notorious HS in Bedford Stuyvesant. 90% of my students were black. I regarded few of them as stupid, but almost none of them saw the point of studying math...they just didn't see how it could benefit them, and they said this to me on a regular basis. In one class I had some relatively young and non-troublemaking students. I told them from the beginning that I would not slip the standards so they could pass...they HAD to do homework in order to pass, as that would be the only way they could practice enough for the tests. For the first couple of tests all of the non-immigrant black kids failed. But I hammered them and told them it was going to continue like this unless they did the homework and studied. I made it absolutely clear what I expected from them. By the end of the semester most of the kids were doing their homework, and passing the quizzes and tests, which I did not make easier in any way. I remember Willie Horne coming in before a test and complaining Mr Durden, I STUDIED last night!. I reached out to feel his forehead and said Willie? Are you feelin' alright? Of course, he pulled back and stifled a smile, but he got a 90. -TD From: Eric Cordian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 00:14:10 -0800 (PST) Tim May observes: Meanwhile, the black folk kept listening to Rev. Jess Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton tell them that they were owed reparations, that they were owed a series of entitlements. No suprise that a large fraction of negro teens subscribe to the view that reading be for whitey. In fact, negroes have invented a whole series of insult terms for those who study too much, for those who break out of the field worker status: Uncle Toms, Oreos, etc. Imagine where the Asians would be if Asian kids who did well in science and math were taunted as race traitors? Math be for whitey. Reading be for whitey. We be owed repa-ations for diskiminashun!! In the real world, a society can not consist 100% of chip designers. It also requires cooks, toilet and floor scrubbers, and people who lug concrete in wheelbarrows up stairs. This is no problem in a society with an explicit class system. You just assign jobs to people based on their social class, with the untouchables getting the shit-hauling and scrubbing jobs, and the more attractive jobs going to their betters. Some countries, like the US and Japan, have as a part of their political doctrine that everyone has the opportunity to be wealthy and successful, so they can't openly have a class system. Of course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are an untouchable. You get it because you didn't do well in school, or you dropped out, and you could have been successful if you had just tried harder. Of course, it's a zero sum game. The bottom X% will always be shit-haulers, and the school is just making the proles fight with each other over who those shit-haulers will be. The fact is that the society can't make everyone successful, and the success of the few is at the expense of the failure of the many, determined by the uncompensated rat race and endless toil on the wheel of public education. The US is an excellent example of this. The AFT and NEA together are the biggest labor organization in the country. THe school system functions not to educate, but as a tool of inculcation in collectivist thinking, and a awarder of certificates which give one the right to work. Schools don't educate, but merely serve
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Jan 1, 2004, at 8:51 AM, Tyler Durden wrote: I'll tell you a story. Back in the late 1980s I taught at a notorious HS in Bedford Stuyvesant. 90% of my students were black. I regarded few of them as stupid, but almost none of them saw the point of studying math...they just didn't see how it could benefit them, and they said this to me on a regular basis. First, please stop including the full text of the message you are replying to. Learn to use an editor, whether you ultimately top-post or bottom-post to edited fragments. Second, we are fast-moving toward a society and economy where only those who _wanted_ to study math and science by the time they were in high school will have anything more than a menial, makework job. Now whether they go the full course and get a college degree or advanced degree is not so much the point as it is that they were intrinsically interested. So if a kid in high school can't see the benefit of studying math, he shouldn't be. It's as simple as that. The parallel I like is one we developed (in Ted Kaehler's nanotechnology study group in the early 90s) for looking at what a society and economy might look like where the costs of material production are as close to zero as one might imagine. That is, a society with full-blown general assemblers, i.e., von Neumann replicators at the molecular, mechano-synthesis, Drexler-type scale. How would goods be produced and sold? How would markets exist/ The analogy I drew, in an essay, and that Howard Landman, Ted Kaehler, Mike Korns, and others added to was this: * We already have an example of an entire town and an entire industry where essentially the costs of material production are nearly zero. * Namely, Hollywood. Film stock is essentially free...bits even more so. Cameras remain expensive, but are vastly less so than they were a decade ago. Basically, everything material in Hollywood is nearly free. What is expensive is the creative talent, the know-how, the ensembles of actors and directors and writers and all. (And writing is itself a perfect example of material abundance. All of the money is in the writing and distribution, virtually none of it in the materials, or in the low skill segment.) Which is why some writers and some Hollywood types make tens of millions a year and most don't. * The society we are heading towards is one of an increasingly sharp division between the skilled and in demand end of the spectrum and the bulk of droids who have few skills in demand. (I argued this, circa 1991-2, to a bunch of people who basically bought the line that technology would bring wealth to the masses, blah blah. I argued that yes, the masses would have great material goods, just as the masses today have color tvs in their cribs. But the big money would elude them. Libertarian rhetoric about everybody being wealthy is only meaningful in the sense that even the poorest today are wealthy by Roman or Middle Ages or even Renaissance standards. But the split between those with talents in demand--the Peter Jacksons, the Stephen Kings, the Tim Berners-Lees, etc. and the reading be for whitey and I don't see any benefit to studying math vast bulk will widen.) Much more could be said on this. I recall I wrote some long articles along these lines in the early years of the list. In conclusion, your Bedford-Stuy student who doesn't see the point to studying math will never be a math researcher, or a physicist, or a chemist, or anything else of that sort. So no point in trying to convince him to study his math. It's like convincing a kid to start writing so he'll stand a chance of being the next Stephen King: if he needs convincing, he won't be. The burnoff of useless eaters will be glorious. --Tim May
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
Tim May wrote... First, please stop including the full text of the message you are replying to. Learn to use an editor, whether you ultimately top-post or bottom-post to edited fragments. I actually do this for a reason. If I'm not doing a line-by-line response (or sometimes even if I am), I want the original post from which I am excerpting to be visible, so that it can be referred to and determined I am not taking this particular quote out of context. So if a kid in high school can't see the benefit of studying math, he shouldn't be. It's as simple as that. Well, part of me doesn't entirely disagree. At least, high school teachers should be teaching and not babysitting. I actually consider it hard enough to develop true competence in math or science (enough to teach on the HS level), and then even harder developing the skills necessary to communicate the ideas effectively. A math or physics teacher can't be an effective babysitter, pal, AND guidance counselor. Or at least, not in the kinds of quantities liberals imagine the schools should be filled with. On the other hand, given the current state of world education in math and science, by 9th grade it's not necessarily too late for a kid to turn into a good mathematician (actually, I myself am an example: in 9th grade I was in a lame but famous private school pulling down low Bs and high Cs in math because I was bored. By 12th grade I was in what was and is regarded as THE top-notch school for math and science in the country, pulling down 100 in calculus...but don't get me wrong, I still know the difference between me and true genius in mathematics). However, the fact is that the school system sucks. It's a joke. Repeat offenders get bounced from school to school, wrecking classes and the environment everywhere they go. Teachers in most states have 25 classroom hours a week, a number matched nowhere in the world (as far as I've ever heard), and THAT'S in addition to homeroom and other duties. The cirriculum is a silly joke, watered down and watered down so that only someone who never shows up couldn't graduate. (And in black schools you'd be suprised how many times I've heard 'these kids can't learn...don't try'.) So your whole burnoff of the eaters theme misses one critical element: direct contact with kids. If you yourself had seen and met kids you KNEW might actually have quite a talent for math, YES EVEN YOU might be tempted to give a crap, and see if just one or two might somehow be inspiried merely to do some homework. This is particularly true when you realize that you actually LIKE some of these kids, which are as fully human as you are, by the way. Or, it might just make you even angrier...give your rage some real, practical real-world fuel rather than being the theoretical cloistered construct it at least appears to be. At least, 'talent' doesn't seem to be the problem. Inner-city black kids have proven that they can do extremely well in whatever they view as important (I'd argue that some of this is due to genetic superiority)...a well-run school system could easily produce the kind of math and engineering talent needed without brain-draining from other countries (and which is probably not a relaible long-term option). The parallel I like is one we developed (in Ted Kaehler's nanotechnology study group in the early 90s) for looking at what a society and economy might look like where the costs of material production are as close to zero as one might imagine. That is, a society with full-blown general assemblers, i.e., von Neumann replicators at the molecular, mechano-synthesis, Drexler-type scale. How would goods be produced and sold? How would markets exist/ I don't remember reading any von Neumann where he discusses the idea of general assemblersI'm still not convinced the general physics of that idea works out, and I believe Freeman Dyson has had some similar doubts. But despite that there's a point here... * Namely, Hollywood. Film stock is essentially free...bits even more so. Cameras remain expensive, but are vastly less so than they were a decade ago. Basically, everything material in Hollywood is nearly free. What is expensive is the creative talent, the know-how, the ensembles of actors and directors and writers and all. Hell, you don't have to go that far. Food is already cheap enough that we might regard it as being nearly free. I mean, for a couple of bucks you can buy enough beef to stuff a welfare family of five, and to feed a rural Chinese family for a friggin' week. (Well, at least in the US...) People from mainland China would still regard most welfare families as rich by Chinese standards. * The society we are heading towards is one of an increasingly sharp division between the skilled and in demand end of the spectrum and the bulk of droids who have few skills in demand. I've also witnessed this trend, but I currently believe it only holds in
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Jan 1, 2004, at 12:50 PM, Tyler Durden wrote: Tim May wrote... First, please stop including the full text of the message you are replying to. Learn to use an editor, whether you ultimately top-post or bottom-post to edited fragments. I actually do this for a reason. If I'm not doing a line-by-line response (or sometimes even if I am), I want the original post from which I am excerpting to be visible, so that it can be referred to and determined I am not taking this particular quote out of context. The world has had well over ten years to adjust to using editors to supply sufficient context. However, the fact is that the school system sucks. It's a joke. Repeat offenders get bounced from school to school, wrecking classes and the environment everywhere they go. As demanded by the negroes and their Jew speaker-to-negroes handlers. (A high school teacher of mine pointed out that when someone demands something, reach for your gun. She left teaching not long after.) Teachers in most states have 25 classroom hours a week, a number matched nowhere in the world (as far as I've ever heard), and THAT'S in addition to homeroom and other duties. The cirriculum is a silly joke, watered down and watered down so that only someone who never shows up couldn't graduate. (And in black schools you'd be suprised how many times I've heard 'these kids can't learn...don't try'.) Because the Jews and negroes have demanded that all students be taught stuff they obviously will never use. Most innerr city mutants should be taught practical skills, not abstract stuff their previous education has been bereft of. So your whole burnoff of the eaters theme misses one critical element: direct contact with kids. If you yourself had seen and met kids you KNEW might actually have quite a talent for math, YES EVEN YOU might be tempted to give a crap, and see if just one or two might somehow be inspiried merely to do some homework. This is particularly true when you realize that you actually LIKE some of these kids, which are as fully human as you are, by the way. I don't give a shit whether they're fully human or not. I only care that they stop stealing from me, that liberal Jews stop saying that my taxes have to be increased to support these fully human bags of shit. The parallel I like is one we developed (in Ted Kaehler's nanotechnology study group in the early 90s) for looking at what a society and economy might look like where the costs of material production are as close to zero as one might imagine. That is, a society with full-blown general assemblers, i.e., von Neumann replicators at the molecular, mechano-synthesis, Drexler-type scale. How would goods be produced and sold? How would markets exist/ I don't remember reading any von Neumann where he discusses the idea of general assemblersI'm still not convinced the general physics of that idea works out, and I believe Freeman Dyson has had some similar doubts. But despite that there's a point here... Then your education in physics about von Neumann is sorely lacking. Von Neumann spend part of several years investigating self-replicating machines, using some ideas of Ulam and others. Well-covered in the cellular automata literature. In science fiction, one will find the general assembler literally referred to as the von Neumann probe. Cf. 35-year old fiction by Saberhagen on Berserkers, or slightly more recent fiction by Roger Macbride Allen and others, for example. Von Neumann machines are more than just non-functional bottleneck machines. As for nanotech, I wasn't endorsing it, just noting the context. My skepticism is noted in Crandall's book on nanotech. * The society we are heading towards is one of an increasingly sharp division between the skilled and in demand end of the spectrum and the bulk of droids who have few skills in demand. I've also witnessed this trend, but I currently believe it only holds in certain segments. There are various craft industries (as I call them) where this equation seems to be held in suspension. Like it or not, hip hop is one of those, though I suppose you could argue that the number of hip-hop 'artists' that make it is tiny compared to the audience. But the point is that in a craft industry, we're really referring to specific and local tastes, as opposed to Darwinian selection (ie, the 'most fit'). In a craft there may be room for many to contribute. (Other examples of craft industries are US high-end audio, the wine industry, high-end marijuana, organic foods and cheeses, and the current German-centered board game renassaiance.) What's desired in such an envornment is not necessarily the best/fastest/brightest, but something with a particularly 'quality' that corresponds to local vagaries of culture and taste. (At least, there's no other way to explain the success of Snoop Doggy Dog...) Snoop is razzlekamazzled by the negroes, who have the money they stole from
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
Tim May wrote... Because the Jews and negroes have demanded that all students be taught stuff they obviously will never use. Most inner city mutants should be taught practical skills, not abstract stuff their previous education has been bereft of. Well, I don't know who's responsible, but teaching what basically amounts to a liberal arts cirriculum is almost certainly useless in the inner cities, and black kids know this...they want something they can USE. Things like authomotive repair or, perhaps, airline baggage screening probably makes a lot more sense. I don't give a shit whether they're fully human or not. I only care that they stop stealing from me, that liberal Jews stop saying that my taxes have to be increased to support these fully human bags of shit. Well, this is where you lose a lot of credibility on this list, despite your sometimes farily acute technical observations. Let's just say that your 'philosophy' has concluded that it's probably better for the useless eaters be burned off, and that this would be good for the planet (the scary thing is that it's becomming obvious that in the near future neither the planet nor human society will really need 6 billion or more people). So this is your philosophy...fine. But you seem to have little or no emotion or sympathy towards those 'lumpen proletariat' (cue commentary on term by James Donald)...in other words, these are people who love/hate/fear/lust/eat just like you, and who don't regard themselves as 'useless', and yet it would seem that history just might pass them by, and that there may be a large segment of human population that will (in the short run) be marginalized, and in the long run be wiped out (according to your philosophies), apparently in some terrible and painful cataclysm. That your philosophies seemed to have erased any interhuman emotion you may have in this context seems strange. And no, I'm not suggesting that you cry your way out of your ideas, but recognize that if your ideas are correct, they're tragic. That which is 'inevitable' and also cataclysmic and (arguably) avoidable may also easily be tragic. Hell...that's probably the very definition of tragic, and in the most pessimistic of appraisals (ie, yours) the fate of American black folks (with many, possibly millions of exceptions) might easily be tragic, and that's a shame, like all human suffering. Then your education in physics about von Neumann is sorely lacking. Von Neumann spend part of several years investigating self-replicating machines, using some ideas of Ulam and others. Well-covered in the cellular automata literature. As you can probably tell, I've never read many secondary or tertiary sources. (ie, as a physicist I've always considered it of dubious usefulness to read ABOUT physics...) I've only read the few more famous von Neumann journal articles I've come across w.r.t. cellular automata...I actually thought he had only written two or three, and I don't remember his ideas of self-replicating machines as including something like a GA, but then again it's easily possible I didn't pick up on the ramifications of what I was reading (which is granted when I was much younger). Snoop is razzlekamazzled by the negroes, who have the money they stole from gullible whites, which is reason enough for niggers, whiggers, and chiggers to all be jivin' like daze shit. Well, perhaps he's just wise to his market. Those who steal need killing. Killing the guilty is about to get a lot more efficient. Billions in the world need killing, and tens of millions in the U.S. are part of this. If true, this is tragic. You might argue that it's necessary, good and inevitable, but it's still tragic. Some of these people will be living lives of very high quality, despite their need for killing. If you got out more, you might know that. -TD _ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tyler Durden wrote: a whole lot of really good points elided As you can probably tell, I've never read many secondary or tertiary sources. I have a very hard time believeing that anyone would consider VN a secondary or tertiary source. (ie, as a physicist I've always considered it of dubious usefulness to read ABOUT physics...) I've only read the few more famous von Neumann journal articles I've come across w.r.t. cellular automata...I actually thought he had only written two or three, That's only because he's hard reading :-) -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
Tim May wrote... In conclusion, your Bedford-Stuy student who doesn't see the point to studying math will never be a math researcher, or a physicist, or a chemist, or anything else of that sort. So no point in trying to convince him to study his math. Why the BedSty student Tim? This is where your arguments - which on shallow inspection may attempt to lay claim to honest thought - fall down. Why only the inner city black schools? I grew up in New York. I am intimately familiar with BedSty, Red Hook, etc. But I am also familiar with at least two schools in white ghettos (PS87/HS44), and I'm here to tell you from very personal experience, that there is no significant difference. You have some incredible moments of lucidity and insight, and occasionally, we are the lucky recipients of these fleeting events - but then, just as sure as the sun coming over the horizon every morning of every day, you slip back into the pseudo-intellectual racist crap. What's wit dat? Even the Great Tim May cannot be taken seriously with the kind of non-thought that has been coming out of your hermithole the last few years. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why the BedSty student Tim? Uhh, read more carefully. He was responding to a specific point from Tyler Durden. You have some incredible moments of lucidity and insight, and occasionally, we are the lucky recipients of these fleeting events - but then, just as sure as the sun coming over the horizon every morning of every day, you slip back into the pseudo-intellectual racist crap. What's wit dat? I don't think Tim is racist as such. He hates everyone equally. :-) But seriously, calling it racism seems wrong-headed. Racism is I hate black people because they're black. Tim hates (some, most, all?) black people because he percieves them as benefitting unfairly from his hard work. I'm pretty sure, all other things being equal, he wouldn't hate a black person who, through his own hard work and without taking a penny from the government, turned himself into a successful, tax-paying source. Or, at least, I'm not convinced he would hate such a person, which is to say I'm not convinced he's a racist. It seems that more and more people see racism where it doesn't (necessarily) exist. Perhaps this is simply because it's a convenient catch-all counter-argument---you're arguing that way because you're a racist, hence you're immoral, hence I win, an ad hominem trump card that more often than not passes for a real argument, probably because people are afraid to voice opinions to the contrary for fear of being labeled racists themselves. Another more insidious possibility is that as a result of such tactics, people actually _do_ see racism where it isn't. The latter worries me. A lot. In any case, before you tear into me for being Tim's shill, consider whether the following examples count as X-ism: 1) I hate X people because they are X. 2) I hate X people because most people who are X are also Y. 3) I hate people who are Y. Most people who are Y are also X. I'd say that the first one is the very definition of X-ism. The second one seems to me to be a special case of Y-ism (assuming that, as seems to be the case given the phrasing, Y's are hated for being Y), but is not X-ism. The third one, the one I believe describes this situation, is not X-ism. You might care to call into question the generalization most people who are Y are also X, but even that isn't X-ism unless the generalization is motivated by a thought process similar to #1. -- Riad Wahby [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIT VI-2 M.Eng
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
I'll comment on the sociology after commenting on the physics: (actually, looking over your sociology, I see it's just more of the liberal whine and sleaze, so I won't bother commenting on it again) On Jan 1, 2004, at 6:34 PM, Tyler Durden wrote: Tim May wrote... Then your education in physics about von Neumann is sorely lacking. Von Neumann spend part of several years investigating self-replicating machines, using some ideas of Ulam and others. Well-covered in the cellular automata literature. As you can probably tell, I've never read many secondary or tertiary sources. (ie, as a physicist I've always considered it of dubious usefulness to read ABOUT physics...) I've only read the few more famous von Neumann journal articles I've come across w.r.t. cellular automata...I actually thought he had only written two or three, and I don't remember his ideas of self-replicating machines as including something like a GA, but then again it's easily possible I didn't pick up on the ramifications of what I was reading (which is granted when I was much younger). The last refuge of the scoundrel is to dismiss stuff as secondary and tertiary sources, sort of like the fakers I used to meet in college who nattered on about having learned their physics from Newton's Principia instead of from secondary and tertiary sources. I encountered von Neumann's work on self-replicating machines when I was in high school (*). It came up in connection with the Fermi paradox and in issues of life (this was before the term artificial life was au courant...I was at the first A-LIFE Conference in '87...von Neumann couldn't make it). (* And no, I don't know mean my high school teachers taught us about von Neumann machines. 97% of the science I knew by the time I graduated from high school I'd learned on my own, from the usual secondary and tertiary sources.) A few moments of thought will show the connection between replicators and general assemblers. A general assembler can make another general assembler, hence all general assemblers are replicators. And in fact this is necessary to make mechanosynthesis nanotech viable, as otherwise it takes all the multibillion dollar wafer fabs in the world, if they could make nanoscale things, to make some scum on the bottom of a test tube. GAs only start to become possible after the replication problem has been solved (which it has not, despite claims about self-reproducing software structures and train sets and the like). If you are not aware of basic developments, recall Wittgenstein's maxim: Whereof one cannot speak, one must remain silent. --Tim May He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. -- Nietzsche
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tim May wrote: A few moments of thought will show the connection between replicators and general assemblers. A general assembler can make another general assembler, hence all general assemblers are replicators. And in fact this is necessary to make mechanosynthesis nanotech viable, as otherwise it takes all the multibillion dollar wafer fabs in the world, if they could make nanoscale things, to make some scum on the bottom of a test tube. Or a few-dollar fermentation tanks with suitable bacteria, once its genome is tweaked in required way. Who ever said that the nanoparticles we need can't be proteins or organic molecules with required shape/properties? If viral particles can self-assemble from host-cell-synthetized proteins, if complicated structures like bacterial propulsion systems - or even whole plants - can be formed, why not nanomechanical systems? Why bother with assembling machines when they could be grown? I hope I didn't screw up my understanding of nanosynthesis. If it is build anything you want by telling the general assembler, then this won't work and would need a lab; but for mass-producing nnoparticles, eg. surface coatings or elements for camera or memory arrays, biotech should be good enough.
Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey
On Jan 1, 2004, at 7:44 PM, Thomas Shaddack wrote: On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tim May wrote: A few moments of thought will show the connection between replicators and general assemblers. A general assembler can make another general assembler, hence all general assemblers are replicators. And in fact this is necessary to make mechanosynthesis nanotech viable, as otherwise it takes all the multibillion dollar wafer fabs in the world, if they could make nanoscale things, to make some scum on the bottom of a test tube. Or a few-dollar fermentation tanks with suitable bacteria, once its genome is tweaked in required way. Who ever said that the nanoparticles we need can't be proteins or organic molecules with required shape/properties? If viral particles can self-assemble from host-cell-synthetized proteins, if complicated structures like bacterial propulsion systems - or even whole plants - can be formed, why not nanomechanical systems? Why bother with assembling machines when they could be grown? I hope I didn't screw up my understanding of nanosynthesis. If it is build anything you want by telling the general assembler, then this won't work and would need a lab; but for mass-producing nnoparticles, eg. surface coatings or elements for camera or memory arrays, biotech should be good enough. Which is why I was careful to say mechanosynthesis and even to qualify the type of replicator as Drexler-style. We've had systems which can replicate in 25 minutes or so for as long as we've existed. But making bread is not the same thing as making computers, or Boeing 747s, or non-bread kinds of food. Specialized biologicals making specialized things is probably where nanotechnology will be a commercial success, but it just ain't real nanotech. --Tim May
