RE: Where's Osama? (Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's next)
-- On 14 Nov 2002 at 14:47, Andrew John Lopata wrote: > I'm no expert, but a friend of mine in the military suggested > that invading Iraq now would be a lot different than the Gulf > War. He said that urban combat, which will be necessary to > depose Hussein, is the most difficult and dangerous type of > combat there is. The last time the US engaged in urban combat, Somalia, US troops took significant casualties, and innocent bystanders suffered enormous casualties. In Afghanistan, urban combat was avoided by three a dimensional envelopment. The enemy inside the city was threatened by ground troops outside the city, from the sky, and by subversion from within the city. It was this final threat, subversion from within, combined with containment from above and around, that provoked capitulation. This third element, subversion from within, may well be unachievable in Iraq, or if it is achievable, the regular army not very deft at getting it done. For the Iraq war to be completed without enormous civilian casualties, massive destruction of infrastructure, and intolerable US casualties, successful political warfare is likely to be essential. > There is no readily available alternate government to install > in Hussein's place. The resulting destabilization in the > region will likely result in a U.S. military presense in the > country for a much longer time than in the Gulf War. When the US defeated Nazi germany, the nazi government was largely obliterated, and the remaining apparatus of government mostly signed up with the German communist party, which had been the second largest party before the nazis, and which was subservient to the Soviet Union. Thus the US eventually had to suppress every vestige of German government and foster a new government from nothing. It took about five years for a plausibly German government to get its hands on the reins of power, and few more years for it to get rid of the institutions and apparatus of nazism. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG AoQslZIvueBx4Zn3xjfrmZVppIjzS70PWbcba9wQ 4QY9/UCaEXMTq2ePACwR96pH+xkCwMdSGqYXRuXaA
RE: Where's Osama? (Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's next)
> Is there any overwhelming reason to believe that going back to >Iraq would be any different? Short answer: yes. Long answer: I'm no expert, but a friend of mine in the military suggested that invading Iraq now would be a lot different than the Gulf War. He said that urban combat, which will be necessary to depose Hussein, is the most difficult and dangerous type of combat there is. The Gulf War was fought on a flat plane with no obstructions or terrain differences (the desert) where superior fire power has a great advantage. Other reasons to think that invading Iraq this time will be much more difficult and likely cause many more U.S. causalities include: 1. The troops the U.S. fought against in the Gulf War were mainly recent conscripts with little training or motivation. Taking Baghdad will require fighting veteran republican guard troops. 2. There is no clear objective to this invasion of Iraq besides deposing Hussein. Ignoring the long-term consequences of this invasion (which is the usual practice), the short-term prospects aren't good. There is no readily available alternate government to install in Hussein's place. The resulting destabilization in the region will likely result in a U.S. military presense in the country for a much longer time than in the Gulf War. -Andy
Where's Osama? (Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's next)
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote: > Anyone guess where's Waldo (Osama) now? My guess he's on the end of a bungee > being kicked into Iraq right now! (The other end of the bungee is in a US > chopper!) Osama is wherever Bush wants him to be. Once we're done with Iraq (assuming that we'd win that Vietnam**2 war - Ha!), Osama will magically produce yet another audio or video tape from North Korea or whatever nation Bush wants to make his next bitch. At this point, we do have the technology to alter both video and audio, and to build fake clips at will. I don't believe that the latest audio bite has been forged by us, but rather that the technology exists. Likely Osama is either dead or has had cosmetic surgery enough for him to live the rest of his days in the French riviera, and what sound bites and videos we have seen and will see are pre-recorded ones. While I'm opposed to us going to war since I believe that between Afghanistan and Iraq, we're opening ourselves up for a far worse beating than Vientam in the long term, I'm far more opposed to the outright lies being presented as reasons for doing so, and the sheer bald faced freedom and privacy grabs that this is an excuse for. Even if we pull a victory like we did in Japan and both democratise and capitalize Afghanistan and Iraq, in the long term, they'll become economic competition. If we "do" Afghanistan again, like we did them after Russia fell and abadon them without further support, it'll turn out the same as it did, like Somalia and other failed abandoned overthrown states. In the end, that will produce far more terrorists than we have seen to date, more of our freedoms will be taken away unil an equilibrium of rights will exist between the USA and dictatorships like Iraq. Luckily there's only two more years before the next election...
RE: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's next?
My Fellow Cypherpunks,
Nomen Nescio writes
>>Gary Jeffers writes:
>>The purpose of the coming Iraq war is to steal their oil. After we get
>> Iraq oil, which arab country is next? If U. State can get away with the
>>theft of Iraq, then why not just keep on stealing?
>>The beneficiaries of this war are:
>>1. United State:
>>2. Corporations, connected.
>>3. The ruling elite families.
>>4. The Zionists.
Nomen Nescio writes
>Even if all this were true, so what? All of the groups above woulddo better things with the oil. The represent the forces of enterprise,initiative and enlightenment >in the world today.
OH, WHERE TO START?
How about United State(s)?
Here are a few of the items:
1. We got the American land by alternating
1.slaughtering Indians, goto 2.
2. make peace treaty, goto 3
3. break peace treaty, goto 1
Its bad enough that we killed the Indians, but dishonoring ourselfs by breaking our word is just beyond the pale.
oh yes, we used germ warfare - the infected blankets. This was back in the old days when we had "moral fiber".
2. We got silly and got into WW1. Its ok to get silly but don't get into a WW with it.
3. By crushing Germany with reparations we helped start WW2 - basically a continuation of WW1 ("the war to end all wars").
4. FDR forced the Japs into war by embargoing steel and oil to them. He also silenced the Pearl Harbor attack alarm.
5. We had the fire storm bombings of the German cities.
6. After Japan was pushing hard for a peace treaty, Truman unnecessarily dropped 2 fission bombs on Jap cities.
7. Johnson's Gulf of Tolken resolution, after his Tolken attack lie.
8. Alice Glasspie, US Ambassadore to Iraq, tells Saddam that "Iraq's relations with Kuwait Iraq's business" and thus starts Desert Storm war.
Saddam is fooled into attacking. THE US STARTED THE WAR!
9. Wasn't it the Kuwait Ambassadore's kid who lied about the premature Kuwait babies being taken out of the incubators by evil Iraqis and then
incubators taken to Iraq. US Press ate this lie up and fed it to US people. This got US people sentiment up for war.
10. We defeat Iraq in DESERT STORM war and then throw giangantically expensive victory away by leaving Saddam in power.
11. Then to force Iraq people to get rid of Saddam, we imbargo Iraq's oil and thus starve millions of people for years.
12 Previous imbargo, Cuba still going strong - for decades. We put millions of people in poverty to encourage people to overthrow Castro.
Say! Do Saddam and Castro eat well?
13. Spanish American war started when one of our warships accidentally explodes. Captain thought it was an accident. Hearst press
propagandises that Spain did it to start war. We started another war.
14. 9/11 done by CIA, Zionists, corporations, other U.S. elements and ruling elites to start war to steal arab countrieS oil. - Arabs blamed.
WHO BENEFITS?!
15. Bush the Elder, former CIA chief and oil family man becomes US president.
A few elections later, his son Bush Jr.(govenor of Texas) becomes president after unbelievable close election - decided in brother
govenors(son of former CIA chief) Florida state after lots of voter fraud and JUDICIAL DECISION. HEY! IS SOMETHING QUEER GOING ON HERE?
16. Oh yes, we put Saddam into power and supported him in Iran war. We also supplied him hugely with weapons.
16,. I believe that it was not too long ago that we supported Bin Laden?
17. Gun control
18. Private Federal Reserve and IRS.
fools see 17 and 18.
Democracy see 4, 6, 7, 8, 14
Well, I could go on but I have used up enought time.
Harmons right, someone's going to have to disarm US of WMD. We are the psycopaths. History proves it :-) History also proves that the American
people have been huge fools for the last 89 years.
Nomen Nescio writes
> What is the alternative?Iraq? Saddam Hussein? You think the world is a better place withsomeone like him controlling Iraqi oil?He's no >better than any of >the groups above. He took power by forceand rules his country with an iron fist. See the recent elections -100% of the vote was supposedly >for Hussein! >What a joke.How can anyone claim that the U.S. or Israel or corporations or richAmericans are morally worse than the likes of Hussein?A 21st >century where >democratic, liberal Western democracies control theworld will be far more prosperous, safe and free than one where backwards,repressive, >religious i>deologies like Islam dominate.The mere fact that you feel free to criticize the U.S., but would nevergo to Iraq and criticize Hussein just proves the >point. >Sure, freedomof speech is not absolute in the U.S., and the degree of protection hasfluctuated; during WWI people were sent to jail for critic!
izing the >draft,but >we're nowhere near that point now.But these freedoms are non-existant in Iraq, China, and other countrieswhich are the real threat to peace and >freedom in >the coming decades.Look at http://www.mid
