RE: Zombie Patriots and other musings [was: Re: (No Subject)]
At 02:07 PM 12/11/03 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: It's worth noting that despite over a decade of this rhetoric, not a single terminally ill American has done this, so far as I am aware. Well, I think for most terminal illnesses, by the time it's obvious you're really not going to live much longer, you're pretty damned sick. And until then, you'd probably like to make some personal use of what days or weeks you have left doing something like talking to your kids, praying, composing that last piece of music, etc., rather than blowing random strangers up to make some political point. (Wouldn't it be a hell of a depressing statement about yourself, if you really believed that the most valuable use of the last hours of your life of which you were capable would involve strapping some dynamite to yourself and taking out a busload of random strangers?) Along with that, most people care about either the afterlife form of immortality, or at least the reputation/legacy form of immortality. Even if you don't worry about lakes of fire and red guys with pitchforks, you might prefer not to have your family and friends humiliated and ashamed at the mention of your name. (Oh my God! That was *your* son? How do you live with that?) The *only* even vaguely simlar cases I'm aware of are in India and Sri Lanka, where young Hindu widows (who, in traditional Hindu society have very dim prospects for a happy life) are recruited as suicide bombers by the Tamil Tigers. I think Rajiv Ghandi's assassin was such a woman. So there, the women are still healthy enough to do something, and doing the suicide bombing thing won't leave behind a legacy of relatives who change their names to avoid being associated with you. Peter Trei --John Kelsey, [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP: FA48 3237 9AD5 30AC EEDD BBC8 2A80 6948 4CAA F259
RE: Zombie Patriots and other musings [was: Re: (No Subject)]
From: John Kelsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 02:07 PM 12/11/03 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: It's worth noting that despite over a decade of this rhetoric, not a single terminally ill American has done this, so far as I am aware. Well, I think for most terminal illnesses, by the time it's obvious you're really not going to live much longer, you're pretty damned sick. About half of my friends who died of a terminal illness were apparently quite healthy when told they had joined the nearly departed. And until then, you'd probably like to make some personal use of what days or weeks you have left doing something like talking to your kids, praying, composing that last piece of music, etc., rather than blowing random strangers up to make some political point. Isn't it depressing than some have been living their lives in a way that such an 11th hour changes of heart are necessary or desired? (Wouldn't it be a hell of a depressing statement about yourself, if you really believed that the most valuable use of the last hours of your life of which you were capable would involve strapping some dynamite to yourself and taking out a busload of random strangers?) Who mentioned random? Who mentioned dynamite? What I'm suggesting is no more random than soldiers killing other soldiers in war. The purpose is to get the other poor dumb bastard to die for their ideology. Besides, there is no need for these operations to be a suicide. The lack of fear gives one a decided edge in dangerous situations which may actually increase survival rates. Along with that, most people care about either the afterlife form of immortality, or at least the reputation/legacy form of immortality. Even if you don't worry about lakes of fire and red guys with pitchforks, you might prefer not to have your family and friends humiliated and ashamed at the mention of your name. (Oh my God! That was *your* son? How do you live with that?) That's their problem. From my prespective its like Hollywood: as long as you still being talked about you're 'alive'. It doen't matter what they are saying. Better to be infamous down through history than unknown. ND
RE: Zombie Patriots and other musings [was: Re: (No Subject)]
LEO John Kelsey whined: Well, I think for most terminal illnesses, by the time it's obvious you're really not going to live much longer, you're pretty damned sick. And until then, you'd probably like to make some personal use of what days or weeks you have left doing something like talking to your kids, praying, composing that last piece of music, etc., rather than blowing random strangers up to make some political point. You fucking twit -- who said anything about blowing up random strangers? Cops, fedzis, and other gov't creeps are the targets. Or is that it is just a little too close to home?
Re: (No Subject)
On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 10:10:03PM -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote: With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise... That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world? It's not silly at all: look again. He said becoming. And it is. Fast. No, it's silly because he said becoming. Had he said is, it would've been criminally stupid. For example, the US has a long, long, long, long way to go before becoming anything remotely like North Korea, in terms of totalitarianism. Of course, North Korea is a radical example; there are many countries much more totalitarian than the US and extremely likely to remain so in any foreseeable future. All the Patriot Acts and increased surveillance and whatever else has been happening in the US lately is a drop in the ocean of difference between the US and those other countries, in that respect. -- avva
Re: (No Subject)
This reminds me of that old saw about the fellow who falls off a 100 story building: Floor 75, everythings still okay Floor 50, still lookin good Floor 25, situation nominal Floor 5, feeling fine Unfortunately, there were some communication issues after he past floor 1. We're still waiting for his final report. Article III is the only one left in the bill of rights that is still adhered to. The others get dragged out every once in awhile, like an old general who has outlived his usefulness and is now just a relic of past glory. - Original Message - From: Anatoly Vorobey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:34 AM Subject: Re: (No Subject) No, it's silly because he said becoming. Had he said is, it would've been criminally stupid. For example, the US has a long, long, long, long way to go before becoming anything remotely like North Korea, in terms of totalitarianism. Of course, North Korea is a radical example; there are many countries much more totalitarian than the US and extremely likely to remain so in any foreseeable future. All the Patriot Acts and increased surveillance and whatever else has been happening in the US lately is a drop in the ocean of difference between the US and those other countries, in that respect. -- avva
Re: (No Subject)
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, J.A. Terranson wrote: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote: With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise... That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world? It's not silly at all: look again. He said becoming. Agreed. I recall watching the events unfold in Tienamin Square all those years ago on TV, and I thought to myself at the time, within 20 years, China will be the last free place on earth. Clocks ticking, and for once, I might have actually been right. Now that the US has no other to compare it self to, it is free to lock it all down with the best totalitarian system in history. There are TRENDS, you see, and the TREND is toward total government domination of all aspects of life. This is the trend, and there is not only no signs of any reversal in the trend, it's building momentum like crazy, down-hill train on greased rails.
Re: Zombie Patriots and other musings [was: Re: (No Subject)]
At 03:04 AM 12/11/03 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nothing less than a guerilla war seems necessary to restore something akin to the original constitutional balance in the U.S. But where to recruit these people? My suggestion: the terminally ill. Many TI come to the table with a 'gift', the certainty of impending death and for some the possibility of fearlessness for physical harm or imprisonment. Of course your idea has merit, both on a personal and govt payback level. But you can get more, and fitter soldiers: Simply convince some healthy folks that an afterlife exists. And that by doing worthy acts you do well there. Religion is a terrorist weapon after all. What would a palestinian bastard on a stick do?
RE: Zombie Patriots and other musings [was: Re: (No Subject)]
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nothing less than a guerilla war seems necessary to restore something akin to the original constitutional balance in the U.S. But where to recruit these people? My suggestion: the terminally ill. Many TI come to the table with a 'gift', the certainty of impending death and for some the possibility of fearlessness for physical harm or imprisonment. Mr. Dumbass appears to be channeling the Earth Liberation Front: Quotes from: http://www.stopecoviolence.com/words.htm If I knew I had a fatal disease, I would definitely do something like strap dynamite on myself and take out Grand Canyon Dam. Or maybe the Maxxam Building in Los Angeles after it's closed up for the night. - Darryl Chernery, Northern California Earth Firster, CBS News Sixty Minutes, March 4, 1990 Are you terminally ill with a wasting disease? .Don't go out with a whimper; go out with a bang! Undertake an ecokamikaze mission. - Excerpt from an article that ran in the Sept. 1989 issue of the Earth First Journal, urging terminally ill activists to go on eco-kamikaze suicide missions Google on eco-kamikaze for more. It's worth noting that despite over a decade of this rhetoric, not a single terminally ill American has done this, so far as I am aware. The *only* even vaguely simlar cases I'm aware of are in India and Sri Lanka, where young Hindu widows (who, in traditional Hindu society have very dim prospects for a happy life) are recruited as suicide bombers by the Tamil Tigers. I think Rajiv Ghandi's assassin was such a woman. Peter Trei
Zombie Patriots and other musings [was: Re: (No Subject)]
From: J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote: With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise... That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world? It's not silly at all: look again. He said becoming. And it is. Fast. It's *long* past time for the inhabitants here to have taken up arms and blown holes in a *lot* of Federal heads. Just a few hundred dead federal goons, spread over a relatively short period (~6 months), where the attacks were obviously coordinated, made against officers enforcing particularly rancid unconstitutional laws (say the federal tax code), and without discoverable perpetrators, would result in an almost instantaneous shortage of officers available to enforce such uncontitutional laws - the survivors would simply refuse. Long fucking overdue. At first it seems that there isn't much one person or even a few can do about this, but I'm no longer so sure. The politics and power of government is, in the end, always dispensed from the end of a gun. For this reason very few citizens even consider contending with the government for political purposes until they fell there is little choice. Nothing less than a guerilla war seems necessary to restore something akin to the original constitutional balance in the U.S. But where to recruit these people? My suggestion: the terminally ill. Many TI come to the table with a 'gift', the certainty of impending death and for some the possibility of fearlessness for physical harm or imprisonment. While the majority of the TI will not see any reason to buck the system in their final days (ideological disagreement, fear for the effect on their families, lack the health, resources, skills or mentality for such a ' final adventure ') I did some back of the envelope calculations that show that more than 100 people die in the U.S. every day who could fill the bill. I've coined the term Zombie Patriots to signify the TI who volunteer to give their last full measure to the American Restoration. Operating alone or in small groups they could form the backbone of an American Civil Liberties Army. ZPs need an education in how to create a personal plan of action and acquire the needed skills and resources (Paladin Press where are you when we need you). A Domestic American Patriot Family Fund may also be desired.
Re: (No Subject)
On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 10:10:03PM -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote: With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise... That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world? It's not silly at all: look again. He said becoming. And it is. Fast. No, it's silly because he said becoming. Had he said is, it would've been criminally stupid. For example, the US has a long, long, long, long way to go before becoming anything remotely like North Korea, in terms of totalitarianism. Of course, North Korea is a radical example; there are many countries much more totalitarian than the US and extremely likely to remain so in any foreseeable future. All the Patriot Acts and increased surveillance and whatever else has been happening in the US lately is a drop in the ocean of difference between the US and those other countries, in that respect. -- avva
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
In a message dated 12/10/2003 10:34:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I receive several messages a month saying I need to re-verify information with an E-gold account (which I never recall establishing, by the way). If I ever determine that E-Gold personnel have faked an account on my behalf, You're a moron Tim. Everybody here probably gets the scammers messages, I get e-gold and paypal cons on regular basis- E-gold never advertised itself as anything other than what it is, a bailee. What e-gold is really good is for is micropayments and I have personally found it good for making payments internationally. I know the principals involved, and I've personally viewed one of their vaults and the gold, etc. is really there. Regards, Matt-
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
Original Message From: Bill Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: E-gold and other DGCs do not do much if any due diligence in checking account holder identification Unfortunately, they also don't due much if any due diligence in identifying themselves in messages to real or potential customers, so it's extremely difficult to determine if I've gotten any administrative messages that really _were_ from them as opposed to the N fraudsters sending out mail asking you to - log in to e-g0ld.com or whatever fake page lets them steal your egold account number and password so they can drain your balance. Actually they do. Sort of at http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/alert.html - Never click hypertext links in HTML formatted e-mail to access your account. - Confirm that you are on the e-gold website before entering your e-gold passphrase into either a logon form or a payment authorization form (see note below about e-gold shopping cart interface): - Verify the address/location/URL starts with: https://www.e-gold.com/ - Verify that the site certificate is issued by VeriSign to www.e-gold.com A policy of PGP-signing all their messages using a key that's published on their web pages would be a good start, though it's still possible to trick some fraction of people into accepting the wrong keys. Too few customers would know what to do with such a key. For now, my basic assumption is that any communications I receive that purport to be from them are a fraud, and it's frustrating that there's no good mechanism for reporting that to e-gold. They know about most of the fraudulent emails circulating. They don't want to hear about them from customers because it would exhaust what customer service resources they have. I have never received an email from e-gold following my account creation confirmation and I beleive its their policy not to send emails for just this reason.
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
Original Message From: James A. Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] Apparently from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)] Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:13:59 -0800 -- On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you fund you accounts using money orders, you may be safe (depending on whether you've employed others to purchase the money orders or your physical identity is being captured at the money order agent during the transaction). Some people offer a cash to e-gold service. Though this is mostly discovered through direct communications, for obvious reasons. Deposit a bundle of notes in their account, they will sell you e-gold. You use the low order bits of the amount as an ID. Others have used the serial number of one of the bills submitted (e.g., the one highlighted with a yellow marker). ALTA/DMT does have a certain degree of un-linkability in that once accounts are deleted all db references in the system to that account are also deleted from all ALTA/DMT dbs. Trust us. Would we lie to you? This info was obtained from discussions with the developers, experiments with the system and examination of the code.
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: E-gold and other DGCs do not do much if any due diligence in checking account holder identification Unfortunately, they also don't due much if any due diligence in identifying themselves in messages to real or potential customers, so it's extremely difficult to determine if I've gotten any administrative messages that really _were_ from them as opposed to the N fraudsters sending out mail asking you to log in to e-g0ld.com or whatever fake page lets them steal your egold account number and password so they can drain your balance. A policy of PGP-signing all their messages using a key that's published on their web pages would be a good start, though it's still possible to trick some fraction of people into accepting the wrong keys. For now, my basic assumption is that any communications I receive that purport to be from them are a fraud, and it's frustrating that there's no good mechanism for reporting that to e-gold. At 07:08 PM 12/10/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Original Message From: James A. Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:13:59 -0800 On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... ALTA/DMT does have a certain degree of un-linkability in that once accounts are deleted all db references in the system to that account are also deleted from all ALTA/DMT dbs. Trust us. Would we lie to you? This info was obtained from discussions with the developers, experiments with the system and examination of the code. You can't tell if the code you're examining is the real code, or whether it will continue to be the real code in the future. You can't tell if the system is making backups of its databases. You can't tell if the experiments you're making with their system are really detecting that there's no information stored, or merely that it's not telling _you_ where they stored it. You can't tell if they're stashing session keys somewhere for the Echelon folks to correlate with their wiretap data. You can't distinguish whether any system is sufficiently advanced or merely a rigged demo, nor can you tell which one this system is. You can't tell from discussions with the developers whether they're lying to you, at least unless they're bad at it. You can't tell from experiments with the system that did in fact pay you the money that they should have whether they'll always do so in the future. You can't tell from extremely detailed experiments where they give you the root passwords to all their machines and let you watch the bits go in and out whether all future transactions will be handled the same way or whether they're just stringing you along until there's enough real money in the system or enough money from real suspects that the owners or various monkeys on their back want to rip off or rat out. You're back to trusting them. I don't know them, so I don't know if they're trustable, but there are people in this business who are, as well as others who aren't. You can tell whether you've given them any real information, and if the system doesn't collect it, it can't rat you out. But otherwise, it's basically trust.
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
-- From: Bill Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] For now, my basic assumption is that any communications I receive that purport to be from them are a fraud, and it's frustrating that there's no good mechanism for reporting that to e-gold. e-gold advises that any communications you receive that purport to be from e-gold *are* fraud. All ethical businesses in the e-gold economy advise that they will *never* send email except in direct response to a user action. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG utxfwVH+WjHFMzwvPoUKgYhjj1jzD93VN85zg63G 4ADCPEMq8/RiyMmoP6fKrwG57q467HW4khlY/GNjQ
Re: (No Subject)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 10-Dec-03, at 11:10 PM, J.A. Terranson wrote: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: Just a few hundred dead federal goons, spread over a relatively short period (~6 months), where the attacks were obviously coordinated, made against officers enforcing particularly rancid unconstitutional laws (say the federal tax code), and without discoverable perpetrators, would result in an almost instantaneous shortage of officers available to enforce such uncontitutional laws - the survivors would simply refuse. Long fucking overdue. Of course the little thing you are overlooking is that if this would happen the Spinmeisters would manage to turn it into another terrorist treat (which in a strict sense it is) and yank even more civil rights. And knowing the majority of people: they just happily go along. Or differently: This would backfire Badly. - -- Michael On the internet, no one can see the meds you take. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP9f1N2lCnxcrW2uuEQIhdgCffEQLxYuHw5uUsUNWOiGcbksx/1EAoInz XvbIEIQ6YfSU34g/xsRT+OnU =wON0 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: (No Subject)
This reminds me of that old saw about the fellow who falls off a 100 story building: Floor 75, everythings still okay Floor 50, still lookin good Floor 25, situation nominal Floor 5, feeling fine Unfortunately, there were some communication issues after he past floor 1. We're still waiting for his final report. Article III is the only one left in the bill of rights that is still adhered to. The others get dragged out every once in awhile, like an old general who has outlived his usefulness and is now just a relic of past glory. - Original Message - From: Anatoly Vorobey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:34 AM Subject: Re: (No Subject) No, it's silly because he said becoming. Had he said is, it would've been criminally stupid. For example, the US has a long, long, long, long way to go before becoming anything remotely like North Korea, in terms of totalitarianism. Of course, North Korea is a radical example; there are many countries much more totalitarian than the US and extremely likely to remain so in any foreseeable future. All the Patriot Acts and increased surveillance and whatever else has been happening in the US lately is a drop in the ocean of difference between the US and those other countries, in that respect. -- avva
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
On Dec 10, 2003, at 6:20 PM, Bill Stewart wrote: On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: E-gold and other DGCs do not do much if any due diligence in checking account holder identification Unfortunately, they also don't due much if any due diligence in identifying themselves in messages to real or potential customers, so it's extremely difficult to determine if I've gotten any administrative messages that really _were_ from them as opposed to the N fraudsters sending out mail asking you to log in to e-g0ld.com or whatever fake page lets them steal your egold account number and password so they can drain your balance. A policy of PGP-signing all their messages using a key that's published on their web pages would be a good start, though it's still possible to trick some fraction of people into accepting the wrong keys. For now, my basic assumption is that any communications I receive that purport to be from them are a fraud, and it's frustrating that there's no good mechanism for reporting that to e-gold. I receive several messages a month saying I need to re-verify information with an E-gold account (which I never recall establishing, by the way). If I ever determine that E-Gold personnel have faked an account on my behalf, or are complicit in any way with stealing from me, I will of course think that killing their children, their parents, and them is moral. E-gold was never even slightly interesting to me for reasons I talked about a few years ago--the notion that a bar of gold moving between shelves in someone's hotel room in Barbados or Guyana or wherever is equivalent to untraceability is silly Randroid idol-worship raised to the fourth power. The scandals reported--and not meaniingfully rebutted--several years ago confirm to me the whole thing is some Randroid fantasy built on sand. --Tim May --Tim May Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now racing down, with American flags fluttering.-- Tim May, on events following 9/11/2001
Re: (No Subject)
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote: With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise... That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world? It's not silly at all: look again. He said becoming. And it is. Fast. It's *long* past time for the inhabitants here to have taken up arms and blown holes in a *lot* of Federal heads. Just a few hundred dead federal goons, spread over a relatively short period (~6 months), where the attacks were obviously coordinated, made against officers enforcing particularly rancid unconstitutional laws (say the federal tax code), and without discoverable perpetrators, would result in an almost instantaneous shortage of officers available to enforce such uncontitutional laws - the survivors would simply refuse. Long fucking overdue. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Father, you are a great and mighty God. Help our governments to remember the lessons of our history and to appreciate the purpose of your son Jesus. Teach our representatives not to be so arrogant as to speak in one way, but doing another, for surely this not the way of truth. Help us to understand that your will is not death but life, not the darkness of hatred but the light of friendship in Christ. In the name of Jesus we pray. Amen. Merle Harton, Jr.
RE: Zombie Patriots and other musings [was: Re: (No Subject)]
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nothing less than a guerilla war seems necessary to restore something akin to the original constitutional balance in the U.S. But where to recruit these people? My suggestion: the terminally ill. Many TI come to the table with a 'gift', the certainty of impending death and for some the possibility of fearlessness for physical harm or imprisonment. Mr. Dumbass appears to be channeling the Earth Liberation Front: Quotes from: http://www.stopecoviolence.com/words.htm If I knew I had a fatal disease, I would definitely do something like strap dynamite on myself and take out Grand Canyon Dam. Or maybe the Maxxam Building in Los Angeles after it's closed up for the night. - Darryl Chernery, Northern California Earth Firster, CBS News Sixty Minutes, March 4, 1990 Are you terminally ill with a wasting disease? .Don't go out with a whimper; go out with a bang! Undertake an ecokamikaze mission. - Excerpt from an article that ran in the Sept. 1989 issue of the Earth First Journal, urging terminally ill activists to go on eco-kamikaze suicide missions Google on eco-kamikaze for more. It's worth noting that despite over a decade of this rhetoric, not a single terminally ill American has done this, so far as I am aware. The *only* even vaguely simlar cases I'm aware of are in India and Sri Lanka, where young Hindu widows (who, in traditional Hindu society have very dim prospects for a happy life) are recruited as suicide bombers by the Tamil Tigers. I think Rajiv Ghandi's assassin was such a woman. Peter Trei
Re: (No Subject)
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, J.A. Terranson wrote: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote: With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise... That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world? It's not silly at all: look again. He said becoming. Agreed. I recall watching the events unfold in Tienamin Square all those years ago on TV, and I thought to myself at the time, within 20 years, China will be the last free place on earth. Clocks ticking, and for once, I might have actually been right. Now that the US has no other to compare it self to, it is free to lock it all down with the best totalitarian system in history. There are TRENDS, you see, and the TREND is toward total government domination of all aspects of life. This is the trend, and there is not only no signs of any reversal in the trend, it's building momentum like crazy, down-hill train on greased rails.
Re: (No Subject)
On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 04:20:20PM -0600, Declan McCullagh wrote: We have anonymity in Web browsing (more or less, thanks to Lance co). It's not NSA-proof, but it's probably subpoena-proof. We have anonymity in email thanks to remailers (to the extent they're still around). We have anonymity in publishing, and to some extent, document retrieval, thanks to Freenet. We have anonymity in one-way communications/dead drops thanks to remailers gatewayed to Usenet newsgroups (if any still even do that). alt.anonymous.messages has a healthy amount of traffic. Google Groups says they have a bit more than 200 messages in it on December 9, for example. I assume nearly all of it is from remailers posting to Usenet (or remailers sending mail to mail2news gateways), otherwise there's little point of using it. -- avva
Re: (No Subject)
-- On 9 Dec 2003 at 0:47, edo wrote: What I'm curious about is digital currencies. Can anyone speak about the Digital Monetary Trust or DMT? I'm sorry I have not read the last upteen years of mail archives, but I'm interested in what people think NOW about Orlin Grabbe, DMT, e-gold etc. An e-gold account is a gold demoninated, offshore account. Same for Pecunix, which has been more recently audited, has better security provisions -- it provides for PGP based login, etc. It is less widely accepted than e-gold, but provides a better deal. Did I mention it has been more recently audited. And just in case you missed it, e-gold has not been audited for a while. None of these accounts provide Chaumian anonymity, which means they can track identity, which means they must track identity, which costs them. However one can withdraw, and deposit, physical gold, which actually is anonymous, and provides a physical mix, since one gold atom looks very like another. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG gFHr0U97wM1IeLX9SRCadMi2qoG+8FaaFXSdMlnB 41xSX7dI0Au/V2pVkuLX2tYRDvsRZ76g3jqqc7NYe
ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
At 10:37 AM 12/10/2003, James A. Donald wrote: -- On 9 Dec 2003 at 0:47, edo wrote: What I'm curious about is digital currencies. Can anyone speak about the Digital Monetary Trust or DMT? I'm sorry I have not read the last upteen years of mail archives, but I'm interested in what people think NOW about Orlin Grabbe, DMT, e-gold etc. ...snip.. None of these accounts provide Chaumian anonymity, which means they can track identity, which means they must track identity, which costs them. However one can withdraw, and deposit, physical gold, which actually is anonymous, and provides a physical mix, since one gold atom looks very like another. E-gold and other DGCs do not do much if any due diligence in checking account holder identification, so if you use an effective proxying means (e.g., an open Wi-Fi hotspot) to create and access your accounts you are pretty safe. If you fund you accounts using money orders, you may be safe (depending on whether you've employed others to purchase the money orders or your physical identity is being captured at the money order agent during the transaction). Although ALTA/DMT doesn't support blinded tokens, it does support tokens. http://www.orlingrabbe.com/dmt_bearercert.htm ALTA/DMT does have a certain degree of un-linkability in that once accounts are deleted all db references in the system to that account are also deleted from all ALTA/DMT dbs. This means if value is transferred from account A to Account B and subsequently Account A is deleted all traces of the transaction should be unlinked from Account B. It also means if you delete an account with a balance, accidently or otherwise, the money is gone. Two e-gold exchange agents have announced either formally or informally that they will now transact with ALTA/DMT. I beleive thay both accept money orders for fuding. Money can be withdrawn using e-gold and/or ATM cards either directly supporting ALTA/DMT (https://www.liquidprivacy.net/) or e-gold.
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
-- On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: E-gold and other DGCs do not do much if any due diligence in checking account holder identification, so if you use an effective proxying means (e.g., an open Wi-Fi hotspot) to create and access your accounts you are pretty safe. If you fund you accounts using money orders, you may be safe (depending on whether you've employed others to purchase the money orders or your physical identity is being captured at the money order agent during the transaction). Some people offer a cash to e-gold service. Deposit a bundle of notes in their account, they will sell you e-gold. You use the low order bits of the amount as an ID. Deposit small used notes in the US, withdraw gold in asia. ALTA/DMT does have a certain degree of un-linkability in that once accounts are deleted all db references in the system to that account are also deleted from all ALTA/DMT dbs. Trust us. Would we lie to you? --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 9P+3EaOU5V9RRtuNGi0n0/2XlM5S3RxLGzOoIMh7 4Imw9MND4w22DnR2n6tOp834DoLrSedKMdIsQGxwn
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
Original Message From: James A. Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] Apparently from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)] Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:13:59 -0800 -- On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you fund you accounts using money orders, you may be safe (depending on whether you've employed others to purchase the money orders or your physical identity is being captured at the money order agent during the transaction). Some people offer a cash to e-gold service. Though this is mostly discovered through direct communications, for obvious reasons. Deposit a bundle of notes in their account, they will sell you e-gold. You use the low order bits of the amount as an ID. Others have used the serial number of one of the bills submitted (e.g., the one highlighted with a yellow marker). ALTA/DMT does have a certain degree of un-linkability in that once accounts are deleted all db references in the system to that account are also deleted from all ALTA/DMT dbs. Trust us. Would we lie to you? This info was obtained from discussions with the developers, experiments with the system and examination of the code.
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: E-gold and other DGCs do not do much if any due diligence in checking account holder identification Unfortunately, they also don't due much if any due diligence in identifying themselves in messages to real or potential customers, so it's extremely difficult to determine if I've gotten any administrative messages that really _were_ from them as opposed to the N fraudsters sending out mail asking you to log in to e-g0ld.com or whatever fake page lets them steal your egold account number and password so they can drain your balance. A policy of PGP-signing all their messages using a key that's published on their web pages would be a good start, though it's still possible to trick some fraction of people into accepting the wrong keys. For now, my basic assumption is that any communications I receive that purport to be from them are a fraud, and it's frustrating that there's no good mechanism for reporting that to e-gold. At 07:08 PM 12/10/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Original Message From: James A. Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:13:59 -0800 On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... ALTA/DMT does have a certain degree of un-linkability in that once accounts are deleted all db references in the system to that account are also deleted from all ALTA/DMT dbs. Trust us. Would we lie to you? This info was obtained from discussions with the developers, experiments with the system and examination of the code. You can't tell if the code you're examining is the real code, or whether it will continue to be the real code in the future. You can't tell if the system is making backups of its databases. You can't tell if the experiments you're making with their system are really detecting that there's no information stored, or merely that it's not telling _you_ where they stored it. You can't tell if they're stashing session keys somewhere for the Echelon folks to correlate with their wiretap data. You can't distinguish whether any system is sufficiently advanced or merely a rigged demo, nor can you tell which one this system is. You can't tell from discussions with the developers whether they're lying to you, at least unless they're bad at it. You can't tell from experiments with the system that did in fact pay you the money that they should have whether they'll always do so in the future. You can't tell from extremely detailed experiments where they give you the root passwords to all their machines and let you watch the bits go in and out whether all future transactions will be handled the same way or whether they're just stringing you along until there's enough real money in the system or enough money from real suspects that the owners or various monkeys on their back want to rip off or rat out. You're back to trusting them. I don't know them, so I don't know if they're trustable, but there are people in this business who are, as well as others who aren't. You can tell whether you've given them any real information, and if the system doesn't collect it, it can't rat you out. But otherwise, it's basically trust.
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
Original Message From: Bill Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: E-gold and other DGCs do not do much if any due diligence in checking account holder identification Unfortunately, they also don't due much if any due diligence in identifying themselves in messages to real or potential customers, so it's extremely difficult to determine if I've gotten any administrative messages that really _were_ from them as opposed to the N fraudsters sending out mail asking you to - log in to e-g0ld.com or whatever fake page lets them steal your egold account number and password so they can drain your balance. Actually they do. Sort of at http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/alert.html - Never click hypertext links in HTML formatted e-mail to access your account. - Confirm that you are on the e-gold website before entering your e-gold passphrase into either a logon form or a payment authorization form (see note below about e-gold shopping cart interface): - Verify the address/location/URL starts with: https://www.e-gold.com/ - Verify that the site certificate is issued by VeriSign to www.e-gold.com A policy of PGP-signing all their messages using a key that's published on their web pages would be a good start, though it's still possible to trick some fraction of people into accepting the wrong keys. Too few customers would know what to do with such a key. For now, my basic assumption is that any communications I receive that purport to be from them are a fraud, and it's frustrating that there's no good mechanism for reporting that to e-gold. They know about most of the fraudulent emails circulating. They don't want to hear about them from customers because it would exhaust what customer service resources they have. I have never received an email from e-gold following my account creation confirmation and I beleive its their policy not to send emails for just this reason.
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
On Dec 10, 2003, at 6:20 PM, Bill Stewart wrote: On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: E-gold and other DGCs do not do much if any due diligence in checking account holder identification Unfortunately, they also don't due much if any due diligence in identifying themselves in messages to real or potential customers, so it's extremely difficult to determine if I've gotten any administrative messages that really _were_ from them as opposed to the N fraudsters sending out mail asking you to log in to e-g0ld.com or whatever fake page lets them steal your egold account number and password so they can drain your balance. A policy of PGP-signing all their messages using a key that's published on their web pages would be a good start, though it's still possible to trick some fraction of people into accepting the wrong keys. For now, my basic assumption is that any communications I receive that purport to be from them are a fraud, and it's frustrating that there's no good mechanism for reporting that to e-gold. I receive several messages a month saying I need to re-verify information with an E-gold account (which I never recall establishing, by the way). If I ever determine that E-Gold personnel have faked an account on my behalf, or are complicit in any way with stealing from me, I will of course think that killing their children, their parents, and them is moral. E-gold was never even slightly interesting to me for reasons I talked about a few years ago--the notion that a bar of gold moving between shelves in someone's hotel room in Barbados or Guyana or wherever is equivalent to untraceability is silly Randroid idol-worship raised to the fourth power. The scandals reported--and not meaniingfully rebutted--several years ago confirm to me the whole thing is some Randroid fantasy built on sand. --Tim May --Tim May Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now racing down, with American flags fluttering.-- Tim May, on events following 9/11/2001
Re: (No Subject)
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote: With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise... That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world? It's not silly at all: look again. He said becoming. And it is. Fast. It's *long* past time for the inhabitants here to have taken up arms and blown holes in a *lot* of Federal heads. Just a few hundred dead federal goons, spread over a relatively short period (~6 months), where the attacks were obviously coordinated, made against officers enforcing particularly rancid unconstitutional laws (say the federal tax code), and without discoverable perpetrators, would result in an almost instantaneous shortage of officers available to enforce such uncontitutional laws - the survivors would simply refuse. Long fucking overdue. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Father, you are a great and mighty God. Help our governments to remember the lessons of our history and to appreciate the purpose of your son Jesus. Teach our representatives not to be so arrogant as to speak in one way, but doing another, for surely this not the way of truth. Help us to understand that your will is not death but life, not the darkness of hatred but the light of friendship in Christ. In the name of Jesus we pray. Amen. Merle Harton, Jr.
Re: (No Subject)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 10-Dec-03, at 11:10 PM, J.A. Terranson wrote: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: Just a few hundred dead federal goons, spread over a relatively short period (~6 months), where the attacks were obviously coordinated, made against officers enforcing particularly rancid unconstitutional laws (say the federal tax code), and without discoverable perpetrators, would result in an almost instantaneous shortage of officers available to enforce such uncontitutional laws - the survivors would simply refuse. Long fucking overdue. Of course the little thing you are overlooking is that if this would happen the Spinmeisters would manage to turn it into another terrorist treat (which in a strict sense it is) and yank even more civil rights. And knowing the majority of people: they just happily go along. Or differently: This would backfire Badly. - -- Michael On the internet, no one can see the meds you take. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP9f1N2lCnxcrW2uuEQIhdgCffEQLxYuHw5uUsUNWOiGcbksx/1EAoInz XvbIEIQ6YfSU34g/xsRT+OnU =wON0 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
In a message dated 12/10/2003 10:34:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I receive several messages a month saying I need to re-verify information with an E-gold account (which I never recall establishing, by the way). If I ever determine that E-Gold personnel have faked an account on my behalf, You're a moron Tim. Everybody here probably gets the scammers messages, I get e-gold and paypal cons on regular basis- E-gold never advertised itself as anything other than what it is, a bailee. What e-gold is really good is for is micropayments and I have personally found it good for making payments internationally. I know the principals involved, and I've personally viewed one of their vaults and the gold, etc. is really there. Regards, Matt-
Re: (No Subject)
On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 04:20:20PM -0600, Declan McCullagh wrote: We have anonymity in Web browsing (more or less, thanks to Lance co). It's not NSA-proof, but it's probably subpoena-proof. We have anonymity in email thanks to remailers (to the extent they're still around). We have anonymity in publishing, and to some extent, document retrieval, thanks to Freenet. We have anonymity in one-way communications/dead drops thanks to remailers gatewayed to Usenet newsgroups (if any still even do that). alt.anonymous.messages has a healthy amount of traffic. Google Groups says they have a bit more than 200 messages in it on December 9, for example. I assume nearly all of it is from remailers posting to Usenet (or remailers sending mail to mail2news gateways), otherwise there's little point of using it. -- avva
Re: (No Subject)
-- On 9 Dec 2003 at 0:47, edo wrote: What I'm curious about is digital currencies. Can anyone speak about the Digital Monetary Trust or DMT? I'm sorry I have not read the last upteen years of mail archives, but I'm interested in what people think NOW about Orlin Grabbe, DMT, e-gold etc. An e-gold account is a gold demoninated, offshore account. Same for Pecunix, which has been more recently audited, has better security provisions -- it provides for PGP based login, etc. It is less widely accepted than e-gold, but provides a better deal. Did I mention it has been more recently audited. And just in case you missed it, e-gold has not been audited for a while. None of these accounts provide Chaumian anonymity, which means they can track identity, which means they must track identity, which costs them. However one can withdraw, and deposit, physical gold, which actually is anonymous, and provides a physical mix, since one gold atom looks very like another. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG gFHr0U97wM1IeLX9SRCadMi2qoG+8FaaFXSdMlnB 41xSX7dI0Au/V2pVkuLX2tYRDvsRZ76g3jqqc7NYe
ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
At 10:37 AM 12/10/2003, James A. Donald wrote: -- On 9 Dec 2003 at 0:47, edo wrote: What I'm curious about is digital currencies. Can anyone speak about the Digital Monetary Trust or DMT? I'm sorry I have not read the last upteen years of mail archives, but I'm interested in what people think NOW about Orlin Grabbe, DMT, e-gold etc. ..snip.. None of these accounts provide Chaumian anonymity, which means they can track identity, which means they must track identity, which costs them. However one can withdraw, and deposit, physical gold, which actually is anonymous, and provides a physical mix, since one gold atom looks very like another. E-gold and other DGCs do not do much if any due diligence in checking account holder identification, so if you use an effective proxying means (e.g., an open Wi-Fi hotspot) to create and access your accounts you are pretty safe. If you fund you accounts using money orders, you may be safe (depending on whether you've employed others to purchase the money orders or your physical identity is being captured at the money order agent during the transaction). Although ALTA/DMT doesn't support blinded tokens, it does support tokens. http://www.orlingrabbe.com/dmt_bearercert.htm ALTA/DMT does have a certain degree of un-linkability in that once accounts are deleted all db references in the system to that account are also deleted from all ALTA/DMT dbs. This means if value is transferred from account A to Account B and subsequently Account A is deleted all traces of the transaction should be unlinked from Account B. It also means if you delete an account with a balance, accidently or otherwise, the money is gone. Two e-gold exchange agents have announced either formally or informally that they will now transact with ALTA/DMT. I beleive thay both accept money orders for fuding. Money can be withdrawn using e-gold and/or ATM cards either directly supporting ALTA/DMT (https://www.liquidprivacy.net/) or e-gold.
Re: ALTA/DMT privacy [was: Re: (No Subject)]
-- On 10 Dec 2003 at 15:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: E-gold and other DGCs do not do much if any due diligence in checking account holder identification, so if you use an effective proxying means (e.g., an open Wi-Fi hotspot) to create and access your accounts you are pretty safe. If you fund you accounts using money orders, you may be safe (depending on whether you've employed others to purchase the money orders or your physical identity is being captured at the money order agent during the transaction). Some people offer a cash to e-gold service. Deposit a bundle of notes in their account, they will sell you e-gold. You use the low order bits of the amount as an ID. Deposit small used notes in the US, withdraw gold in asia. ALTA/DMT does have a certain degree of un-linkability in that once accounts are deleted all db references in the system to that account are also deleted from all ALTA/DMT dbs. Trust us. Would we lie to you? --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 9P+3EaOU5V9RRtuNGi0n0/2XlM5S3RxLGzOoIMh7 4Imw9MND4w22DnR2n6tOp834DoLrSedKMdIsQGxwn
Re: (No Subject)
On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote: With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise... That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world? As far as I'm concerned, true anonymity in finacial affairs (and secure communication channels) is the only real method open to peacefully combat the all seeing, all powerful government. You can't combat an all-powerful government, because it's all-powerful. And you can't manage anonimity against an all-seeing government, because it is all-seeing. -- avva
Re: (No Subject)
On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote: With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise... That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world? As far as I'm concerned, true anonymity in finacial affairs (and secure communication channels) is the only real method open to peacefully combat the all seeing, all powerful government. You can't combat an all-powerful government, because it's all-powerful. And you can't manage anonimity against an all-seeing government, because it is all-seeing. -- avva
Re: (No Subject)
On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote: As far as I'm concerned, true anonymity in finacial affairs (and secure communication channels) is the only real method open to peacefully combat the all seeing [etc.] We have anonymity in Web browsing (more or less, thanks to Lance co). It's not NSA-proof, but it's probably subpoena-proof. We have anonymity in email thanks to remailers (to the extent they're still around). We have anonymity in publishing, and to some extent, document retrieval, thanks to Freenet. We have anonymity in one-way communications/dead drops thanks to remailers gatewayed to Usenet newsgroups (if any still even do that). We do not have anonymity in financial transactions. In fact, we have less anonymity than we did a decade ago, thanks to amendments to the Bank Secrecy Act and the USA Patriot Act. And the OECD's efforts in this area too. Instead of a Chaum or Brands payment system, we ended up with ebay/Paypal -- which has made clear its policy of intimate cooperation with police. Strong anonymity in online financial transactions is something like a linchpin in deploying better strong anonymity solutions in other areas because people like to get paid for developing and maintaining such systems, especially if they are in any way controversial. The problem IMHO is obtaining an interface with the banking/financial system, probably the most-regulated industry in the U.S. -Declan
Re: No Subject
At 10:35 AM 9/15/01 -0700, citizenQ wrote: You missed the irony, I guess I should have put in the irony-smiley. Given the overall context of the bill, the debate on the floor, and it's conclusion your report is shrill and Chicken-littleish, which does nothing for creating credible support of resistance to eroding civil liberty. Do your job, support your position, and do it clearly. Right now I have no patience for Wired-generation smugness. Clearly you have missed the path to enlightenment. -Declan
RE: No Subject
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of citizenQ Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 5:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: No Subject Reading the discussion I see that the amendment calls for inclusion of 'terrorist activies' into Title III which allows wiretapping under Court order, not anything about warrantless wiretapping. I did not perform all the text substitutions of the amemdment itself though. However in the language of the amendment all references that I read are to activities under court order. Please indicate the wider circumstances, particularly the warrantless circumstances, that this amendment allows cybertapping under, for those of us without your time or acumen in editing the existing Title III language. (c) EMERGENCY INSTALLATION.-- (1) AUTHORITY FOR UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS.--Section 3125(a) of that title is amended in the matter preceding paragraph (1)-- (A) by striking ``or any Deputy Assistant Attorney General,'' and inserting ``any Deputy Assistant Attorney General, or any United States Attorney,''. (2) EXPANSION OF EMERGENCY CIRCUMSTANCES.--Section 3125(a)(1) of that title is amended-- (A) in subparagraph (A), by striking ``or'' at the end; (B) in subparagraph (B), by striking the comma at the end and inserting a semicolon; and (C) by inserting after subparagraph (B) the following new subparagraphs: ``(C) immediate threat to the national security interests of the United States; ``(D) immediate threat to public health or safety; or ``(E) an attack on the integrity or availability of a protected computer which attack would be an offense punishable under section 1030(c)(2)(C) of this title,''. You also did not quote this: One of the most effective investigative tools at the disposal of law enforcement agencies is the ability to go to a Federal judge and get wiretapping authority. It is critical in matters such as this. That is the ability to intercept oral or electronic conversations involving the subject of a criminal investigation. The legislative scheme that provides this authority, and at the same time protects the individual liberties of American citizens to be secure against unwarranted government surveillance, is referred to in the criminal code as Title III. Among the many protections inherent in Title III is that only the investigations of certain criminal offenses, those judged to be sufficiently serious to warrant the use of this potent crime-fighting weapon, are eligible for wiretapping orders. The law lays out a number of crimes deemed by Congress to be serious enough to warrant allowing the FBI to intercept electronic and oral communications. Title III currently allows interception of communications in connection with the investigation of such crimes as mail fraud, wire fraud, and the interstate transportation of stolen property. Inexplicably, however, the Federal terrorism statutes are not currently included in Title III. I have been complaining about this for a long time and this is the time to correct it. This is somewhat of a mistatement considering the breadth of 2516.
Re: (no subject)
Tim May wrote: At 1:32 PM -0400 8/31/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you know any child porn sider i beg you please send me some! I see the cops in Smalltown, U.S.A. have returned from their Conference on Law Enforcement Advanced Tactics and are practicing their newfound skills in logging-on and entrapping babyrapers and freethinkers and cyberterrorists. Good to know our tax dollars are hard at work. It might not be one of our LOADs (Law Officers and Deputies). In the past few days the spam on the list has gone way up, and I don't even get mail from Toad. Probably some kiddies are back from summer camp and are back doing what they do best, annoying people with lives. If anyone wants it, I'll post an image which could reasonably be sent to these trollers. It is appropriately titled "GoFuckYourself.jpg". -- Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere Have GNU, will travel 518-374-4720 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
