Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
At 07:46 PM 10/28/01 -0800, someone with the password to [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some people need killing, some people don't. The difference is not always clear, but when it comes to imperial soldiers and trade towers, the difference is clear enough. It's always refreshing to see someone with such a staunch moral compass. You would no doubt write excellent Captain American fan fiction. And the difference is also clear enough when it comes to those people who found themselves paying taxes to support an imperial war they knew nothing of. Perhaps people should pay better attention to the actions their government takes in their name - after all, you never know when somebody might take seriously all that talk about the actions of the government merely reflecting the will of the people, and in so doing hold your blissfully ignorant ass accountable. -- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
-- James A. Donald: If you cannot tell the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters, you got shit for brains. The revolutionaries killed british soldiers in America. They did not go to england and kill english children. Jim Choate: Why is where they were killed important? It is unimportant. What matters is what those one kill are doing. British soldiers were repressing colonials. The guys in the trade towers were not doing anything to Muslims. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Q2kWfTH9APuw22jWc7EzjNGXgLUxM0LaW1PvR7zo 41V/oOt9SaMiRQFiTT7GGI75ooA1KgMXRBYfcCZNg
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 08:58:30AM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is unimportant. What matters is what those one kill are doing. British soldiers were repressing colonials. The guys in the trade towers were not doing anything to Muslims. So what about all the civilians in Afghanistan who are being killed by American and British bombs. They aren't being killed because they are soldiers, or because they support the Taliban, or because they hate the U.S.A. They are killed simply because the U.S. and a few other countries are attacking and they happened to be sitting in their homes, caring for their children, eating, sleeping, etc. So are most of the Afghan civilians who are being killed doing anything to the U.S., U.K., Canada, etc.? I think not. The devil in this is the old cliche, the end justifies the means. This kind of thinking allows people to destroy the WTC, kill thousands of innocents in the U.S.A. and Afghanistan, allows the police in so called civilized first world countries to imprison, and torture people who have been charged with no crime (let alone convicted), and allows lawmakers to pass draconian legislation that will lead to more abuses of civil rights. It is a very simple trick of the mind with devestating consequences - once you allow yourself to forget that a particular person or group of people are actual human beings, who live, experience joy, and suffer just as we all do, any sort of brutality in support of a cause (revenge, justice, freedom, etc.) becomes relatively easy to inflict. I'll end this with a pointer to a well written insightful article about the war - http://www.zmag.org/roywarpeace.htm --- Mark Henderson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Heilir æsir. Heilar ásynjur. Heil sjá in fjölnýta fold. - Sigrdrífumál OpenPGP/GnuPG keys available at http://www.squirrel.com/pgpkeys.asc
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
-- On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 08:58:30AM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What matters is what those one kills are doing. British soldiers [in the American revolutionary war] were repressing colonials. The guys in the trade towers were not doing anything to Muslims. On 28 Oct 2001, at 11:08, Mark Henderson wrote: So what about all the civilians in Afghanistan who are being killed by American and British bombs. Collateral damage. We are not targeting them. Analogously, if someone grabs a human shield, and starts shooting at me, I am entitled to shoot back, and if the shield gets it, his blood is on the head of the guy who grabbed him, not my head. I'll end this with a pointer to a well written insightful article about the war - http://www.zmag.org/roywarpeace.htm I am unimpressed with lectures on morality given by those who worked for the KGB against their countrymen. http://www.zmag.org are bunch of commies who have never found fault with any mass murderer, only those who defend themselves against mass murder, never opposed any totalitarian tyrant, only those who make revolution against tyrants. I went to their web page. The second person on the masthead was John Pilger, who used to be a KGB agent. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG qRNAZW+vCuwdc0Kqlz8Gg3RB7nDgLhw/Z8XamF3c 4jI82HK0DObtBJr1S9eLXEyDwZv3hwadUWgYGTiv7 --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG tGvHji52Za1V9gi3QXxpSqnJbFedxtqYFq8j2q7f 4kyQHCygwaj6X4bfNP1jrrdEHuAT3CKLf0pihNVBh
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim Choate: Why is where they were killed important? It is unimportant. What matters is what those one kill are doing. Ah, here is the double standard in your argument. British soldiers were repressing colonials. The guys in the trade towers were not doing anything to Muslims. And what about the businesses that were used to support those British soldiers. Would they have been legitimate targets (which they were to the colonials)? In a parallel way the WTC is the business that supports the oppressive forces, or at least that's the way they see it. Then of course we can discuss the entire concept of 'property ownership', 'breaking contract' and 'repress colonials'. This brings up the aspect of 'self determination' that folks like yourself seem to be missing. Go read the first two para's of the DoI. Then reflect on this; The legitimate use of self-defence with respect to self-determination is from the view of the oppressed. No consideration is made for those who one fights against to end the oppression. Freedom is about the individual and what they are justified in doing if provoked. Now look at world politics since the 1850's...then consider certain rejoinders by the founding fathers about getting involved in other peoples business...then consider rampant globalization w/ centralized political and military authority... Further, you wish to us to view the WTC as a isolated senseless event, when in fact it is not. It is only one more act in a 140 year refutation of American Democracy. We reap what we sow. -- The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 12:58:03PM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Collateral damage. We are not targeting them. Ah, so even though collateral damage is the inevitable consequence of war, that makes it all OK. I get it. So what for the suffering of thousands in pursuit of revenge? The end justifies the means. Right. If a million people have to die, be maimed, or lose family members so that Bin Laden can be captured you're OK with that. http://www.zmag.org are bunch of commies who have never found fault with any mass murderer, only those who defend themselves against mass murder, never opposed any totalitarian tyrant, only those who make revolution against tyrants. That's a good defence. Just label the people whose opinions you don't like as a bunch of commies. Then you don't need to take them seriously. I'm impressed. You seem to forget there are people in the left who are for restructuring of society so that there is much less government, and less power centralised in the hands of a few. Cheers, Mark
Re: CDR: Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
Jim Choate wrote: On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you cannot tell the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters, you got shit for brains. The revolutionaries killed british soldiers in America. They did not go to england and kill english children. Why is where they were killed important? If you kill people on your land it's ok, kill them on their land it's not? Then the Allies were 'terrorist' when they entered German territory in WWII? I hardly think so. Let's try to spell this out so even you can understand it, Jim. The distinction is between killing combatants and killing noncombatants. Do you get that? Location is incidental. Motive is irrelevant to the definition. American revolutionaries killed British soldiers and their unfortunate Hessian co-belligerents, not office workers in London (or Boston for that matter). That's what makes them something other than terrorists. Marc de Piolenc
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
-- On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: I just have a lot of trouble equating terrorism and the American war of independence. On 26 Oct 2001, at 20:43, Jim Choate wrote: Why? The Americans were most certainly terrorist/revolutionaries/freedom fighters/etc. If you cannot tell the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters, you got shit for brains. The revolutionaries killed british soldiers in America. They did not go to england and kill english children. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG /I0NwLOC9TfraDoO89fP2ZWwpG5CEcq6ggF5R3y0 4Fqn8wqxrF4MvGrfA9fDSQfO/959RFgg6SnFcE53K
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you cannot tell the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters, you got shit for brains. The revolutionaries killed british soldiers in America. They did not go to england and kill english children. Why is where they were killed important? If you kill people on your land it's ok, kill them on their land it's not? Then the Allies were 'terrorist' when they entered German territory in WWII? I hardly think so. It's not the who or where, it's the why that is important. Why could the Americans not kill British subjects on English soil? They had no mechanism to get there effectively. I'm sure the Americans would have prefered killing the British on British soil rather than American soil. Your standard of 'definition' leaves something to be desired. -- The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: No argument there - I just have a lot of trouble equating terrorism and the American war of independence. Why? The Americans were most certainly terrorist/revolutionaries/freedom fighters/etc. Arms should indeed be taken up against those who wantonly murder the innocent. And if a few innocent get caught in the wrath of your vengeance...well, God's on our side, right? -- The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: CDR: Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
Jim Choate wrote: Why? The Americans were most certainly terrorist/revolutionaries/freedom fighters/etc. Again, you make no distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists, which is very sad because there is a rather important difference. Being incapable of making the distinction, you are condemned to hate everybody who fights. Arms should indeed be taken up against those who wantonly murder the innocent. And if a few innocent get caught in the wrath of your vengeance...well, God's on our side, right? Right is certainly on our side. I'm an atheist, so I have no concern for God's opinions. Marc de Piolenc Philippines -- The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
[Warning: Use of 3rd person 'you'] On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: Again, you make no distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists, which is very sad because there is a rather important difference. Being incapable of making the distinction, you are condemned to hate everybody who fights. It's a false distinction. What it boils down to is two or more groups taking up arms to control all groups. One can eulogize about ethics and morality until the cows come home. Won't change the basic fact that any such conclusions are not only arbitrary but transient. There is no absolute right and wrong outside of human psychology. The American colonist certainly qualified in the 'terrorist' department with their burning of warehouses and physical assaults on British sympathisers. At the same time they were sitting in various political offices and economic posts. To 'hate' is the issue, the scale is irrelevent. Stop the hate. Stop the use of violence. Their failure does not justify yours. -- The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion. Edmund Burke (1784) The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: CDR: Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
David Honig wrote: At 12:42 PM 10/25/01 +0800, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: Jim Choate wrote: We need to send a message that armed propaganda is not an acceptable form of self-expression, no matter what the alleged cause. Review the American revolution and the current news before you follow this little meme very far. ..and your point is...? Obvious to americans ---that sometimes arms *should* be taken up. No argument there - I just have a lot of trouble equating terrorism and the American war of independence. Arms should indeed be taken up against those who wantonly murder the innocent. Marc de Piolenc -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
Re: CDR: Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
Jim Choate wrote: We need to send a message that armed propaganda is not an acceptable form of self-expression, no matter what the alleged cause. Review the American revolution and the current news before you follow this little meme very far. ..and your point is...? Marc de Piolenc
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shit, so much for ordering mushroom spores by mail! Hopefully UPS and fedex won't follow suit. Another option might be for each package to be dropped into a poly bag, heat sealed and rinsed before being handled by staff. Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. If as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and the list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, self-justifying security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if you're an insect. So we get either the Caves of Steel or the Naked Sun? I'd go for the former, being a city boy, but I guess T. May, H. Seaver D. Honig might prefer the hyper-exurbia of the latter. One step from the Machine Stops - set not in the ultimate city but in the ultimate suburb. Ken
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds)
The really weird thing about this whole anthrax scene is that all the spores seem to be of the Ames variety, which is a militarized anthrax developed in Ames, Iowa. It really seems suspicious to me that these are of domestic origin -- bin Ladin or whoever would be in all likelihood be using a Russian variety or an Iraqi subset. Sigh! Time to watch Wag the Dog again. And after that, Brazil. The difference between Wag the Dog and The Big Terrorist Hoax is that the former was done far more professionaly, it cost more and returned no profit at all. Face it: catalyzing suicidal WTC spectacle and mailing some anthrax probably did not cost more than $10-15 million altogether, and that is what purchased them their wet dream - dictatorship at the dawn of third millenia. One must commend the government for wise spending - this is the most bang for the buck I've ever seen. Governments *always* killed their own subjects for gain, and the 5K bodies is actually low count for the effect produced. This kind of power shift usually required a major war with 10-100X more bodies. So, the government is not only economical. It is also humane.
Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds
At 04:23 AM 10/23/2001 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: Irradiation equipment is being considered for mail processing, heard both over NPR's Morning Edition, and referenced in a story posted to Yahoo!: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ksat/20011022/lo/932238_1.html ... Adds new meaning to a glowing letter of recommendation :-) I would hope that relatively short-term leases are being considered. Or is this going to be a long-term threat? This isn't the kind of thing you back off on, once you've started, because the potential threat of muckers out there doesn't decrease over time, thought the number of wannabees and copycats may be temporarily high. The real question is how much does the government want to either scare us about the threats or reassure us about how well they're protecting us, or both - given that they've been waving the anthrax flag for four or five years now, I'd expect this is long term. Any pointers on packaging for photographic and/or magnetic media through mail to survive irradiation equipment? How about the magstrips on all those credit cards issued through the mail? Magnetic media shouldn't be bothered - you need to be careful around X-ray machines, but that's because of electromagnets, not radiation. Unexposed photographic film could have a real problem with this, depending on quite what they're using. I'd worry more about medicines and other biologicals and foods - obviously you're not going to ship a live-culture vaccine through this...
Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds
on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 08:31:38AM -0700, David Honig ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: At 04:23 AM 10/23/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: Any pointers on packaging for photographic and/or magnetic media through mail to survive irradiation equipment? How about the magstrips on all those credit cards issued through the mail? Forget that, how about seeds and seedlings? What will Burpee do? OTOH, futures for nuclear winter wheat are strong. -- Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of Gestalt don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds)
On Tuesday, October 23, 2001, at 04:02 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. If as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and the list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, self-justifying security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if you're an insect. The really weird thing about this whole anthrax scene is that all the spores seem to be of the Ames variety, which is a militarized anthrax developed in Ames, Iowa. It really seems suspicious to me that these are of domestic origin -- bin Ladin or whoever would be in all likelihood be using a Russian variety or an Iraqi subset. You are astoundingly misinformed, or are just plain lazy. One minute spent searching on anthrax ames will disabuse the clueful of the mistakes made above. The Ames strain is _not_ militarized anthrax. Get a fucking clue. --Tim May Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now racing down, with American flags fluttering.-- Tim May, on events following 9/11/2001
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
At 12:23 PM 10/24/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote: Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. If as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and the list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, self-justifying security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if you're an insect. So we get either the Caves of Steel or the Naked Sun? I'd go for the former, being a city boy, but I guess T. May, H. Seaver D. Honig might prefer the hyper-exurbia of the latter. One step from the Machine Stops - set not in the ultimate city but in the ultimate suburb. Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate such antipathy. The message of the WTC is this: regular ole' non-mil sheeple *are* held responsible for the actions of their government. *Even* in the US. What a concept. I suppose the sheeple in Dresden (etc.) know what that's like. When the US populations' endocrines settle down, maybe they'll clue in to cause and effect. Doubt it. Getting involved in others' family feuds is just too much fun. What was it General Washington said about foreign entanglements? I'd tattoo it onto every congressvermin's forehead.
Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds
At 09:31 AM 10/23/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: Unexposed photographic film could have a real problem with this, depending on quite what they're using. Enough rads to sterilize? Forget film. Interesting consequences for the evolution of radiation-resistant strains, of course. Except in kansas where evolution isn't allowed.
Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds
On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 11:05 AM, David Honig wrote: At 10:32 AM 10/24/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 10:14 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote: Enough rads to sterilize? Forget film. What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these flux levels? Nothing. Magnetic oxides and metallic thin films are not affected by mere few tens of kilorads, or even by megarads. Ionizing radiation has no particular first order effect on such films. Um, Tim, I was talking about silver-halogen photographic 'films'. And I was replying to Sampo Syreeni, who asked What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these flux levels? I wasn't commenting on photographic film. You do raise the question of what happens to 100-atom thick gate oxides... but that's not what *I* was writing about. See above about what I was replying to. --Tim May Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout --Unknown Usenet Poster
Sheeple earning sheeps' disease (Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds ))
At 10:11 AM 10/24/01 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Honig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate such antipathy. The message of the WTC is this: regular ole' non-mil sheeple *are* held responsible for the actions of their government. *Even* in the US. What a concept. I suppose the sheeple in Dresden (etc.) know what that's like. When the US populations' endocrines settle down, maybe they'll clue in to cause and effect. Doubt it. Getting involved in others' family feuds is just too much fun. What was it General Washington said about foreign entanglements? I'd tattoo it onto every congressvermin's forehead. Not that it isn't a good direction to head but I wonder what your time-scale is for the conversion of a society that cannot survive without an influx of inexpensive resources from foreign sources into something less colonial? It has to be decades at a minimum. Tomorrow. No USG money, no USG troops outside the US. In the meantime how do we deal with the Islamic Fundamentalist nutters? We have an immediate obligation to fight back. If we can find something to hit. This is not an exception to the above withdrawl --this is striking back, to maintain our reputation, only. But we can certainly let the foreign tyrants whom we currently defend, at our peril (and frankly disgrace), fend for themselves. Let *their* oppressed earn *their* freedom. Let US citizens go over and fight if they want to, as private citizens, as many did during e.g., the spanish civil war. But as a government do not engage in foreign entanglements. Because karma happens. Behavior has consequences. Otherwise, sheeple will continue to earn sheeps' disease --anthrax, etc. As you say, the US is far too vulnerable, and will shut down ---which is one of the Jihad's goals. Part of 'getting our attention'. Or our own Christian Fundamentalist nutters for that matter. I don't want to hear about good and evil, Christian vs. Muslim, True faiths vs. ersatz faiths or right vs. wrong. But you *will* when the interventionists gripe about how oppressed the poor inhabitants are, and shouldn't we intervene?. Of course the interventionists want to spend *your* money and your offspring pursuing *their* grand plans. Which look much like colonialism and culture war from the other side. The crew that did the WTC is dangerous. Those who are sending anthrax through the mails are dangerous. No argument there. Near-term solutions are called for. I would like to see solutions that don't involve further trashing of our civil rights but I have no compassion for the terrorists or freedom fighters or whatever the hell you want to call them. Mike I'm waiting for some asian caucus to declare that, given the circumstances, all arabs should be sent to Nevada. . If you look up Schelling points you find Tim's http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.07.25-1996.07.31/msg00032.html metaphor about interfering with another family because you disapprove of how they raise their children. Basically the Soviet Union died and left US boss of the neighborhood. But the US, playing self-appointed cop, has made lots of enemies; and even cops must sleep. The sleeping giant finds that someone has tried to burn his house down while he sleeps. The giant needs to hit back, then stop accumulating enemies. Free trade does not make enemies. Government intervention does. Funny how consensual acts are ok and nonconsensual ones not. ... Mind you, I believe in right and wrong -hell, I quote Rand- and I'd be happy forcing all the tyrant-governments (from the French, English, Mexican, etc. to the Saudis) to accept the US constitution, *all of it*, or else. But that's questionable and going to create enemies. If someone did that to you, you might take up arms too (or planes, or spores, given the asymmetry). Best to stay out of their family feuds (Yugoslavia, Palestine, Ireland, Spain, africa, etc.) and don't force them to do it our way or else --even though our way is the right way. Lead by example. Not intervention. ... To those who gripe we need the oil (or other resources): ask the families of the WTC corpses if doubled gas prices (for a few years until a safer supply rises) are worth it.
Re: CDR: Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
David Honig wrote: Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate such antipathy. And if you believe that WTC had anything to do with US foreign policy, or that we would cease being targets if we e.g. dropped suppport for Israel, you are living in a dream world and have bought the terrorists' propaganda. We need to send a message that armed propaganda is not an acceptable form of self-expression, no matter what the alleged cause. Marc de Piolenc Philippines
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds)
The Ames Strain of Anthrax wasn't developed in Ames, It was discovered. It was naturally occurring strain that was resistant to the anti-biotics that were used to treat Anthrax at the time. It is very commonly used in the study and research of bacteria, and up to a few years ago could be easily ordered from lab supply houses (as long as it looked like an offical research organization, the company sent it). It took a white-supremicist scientist ordering it and then driving around with it in the trunk of his car to convince the government more restrictions to be put in place.
Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
David Honig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : Personally I'd prefer a non-colonial foreign policy that doesn't generate such antipathy. The message of the WTC is this: regular ole' non-mil sheeple *are* held responsible for the actions of their government. *Even* in the US. What a concept. I suppose the sheeple in Dresden (etc.) know what that's like. When the US populations' endocrines settle down, maybe they'll clue in to cause and effect. Doubt it. Getting involved in others' family feuds is just too much fun. What was it General Washington said about foreign entanglements? I'd tattoo it onto every congressvermin's forehead. Not that it isn't a good direction to head but I wonder what your time-scale is for the conversion of a society that cannot survive without an influx of inexpensive resources from foreign sources into something less colonial? It has to be decades at a minimum. In the meantime how do we deal with the Islamic Fundamentalist nutters? Or our own Christian Fundamentalist nutters for that matter. I don't want to hear about good and evil, Christian vs. Muslim, True faiths vs. ersatz faiths or right vs. wrong. The crew that did the WTC is dangerous. Those who are sending anthrax through the mails are dangerous. Near-term solutions are called for. I would like to see solutions that don't involve further trashing of our civil rights but I have no compassion for the terrorists or freedom fighters or whatever the hell you want to call them. Mike
Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds
On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote: Enough rads to sterilize? Forget film. What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these flux levels? Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], tel:+358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds
On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 10:14 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote: Enough rads to sterilize? Forget film. What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these flux levels? Nothing. Magnetic oxides and metallic thin films are not affected by mere few tens of kilorads, or even by megarads. Ionizing radiation has no particular first order effect on such films. There is much more I can write here, but won't. --Tim May Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now racing down, with American flags fluttering.-- Tim May, on events following 9/11/2001
Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds
At 10:32 AM 10/24/01 -0700, Tim May wrote: On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 10:14 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote: Enough rads to sterilize? Forget film. What do you suppose happens to disks and other magnetic media at these flux levels? Nothing. Magnetic oxides and metallic thin films are not affected by mere few tens of kilorads, or even by megarads. Ionizing radiation has no particular first order effect on such films. Um, Tim, I was talking about silver-halogen photographic 'films'. You do raise the question of what happens to 100-atom thick gate oxides... but that's not what *I* was writing about. Radiation can also change the color of gems --used to 'cheat' and make them more valuable--- but probably not a lot of diamonds go through the USPO, and I don't know what dosage is necessary to introduce the appropriate defect density.
Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds
At 09:31 AM 10/23/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: At 04:23 AM 10/23/2001 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: Irradiation equipment is being considered for mail processing, heard Yep, nothing like placing canisters of radiological materials everywhere. Mmmm, smell that? Cobalt 60. Smells like... victory. If plastique can be stolen from military bases...
Re: CDR: Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds
On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote: Shit, so much for ordering mushroom spores by mail! Hopefully UPS and fedex won't follow suit. you should be aware that FedX now carries a large (majority?) portion of the US mails, under contract. This is the reason that FedX drop boxes were just put in your local post office. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place...
Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds
Shit, so much for ordering mushroom spores by mail! Hopefully UPS and fedex won't follow suit. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )
Shit, so much for ordering mushroom spores by mail! Hopefully UPS and fedex won't follow suit. Another option might be for each package to be dropped into a poly bag, heat sealed and rinsed before being handled by staff. Our society has, for all practical purposes, endless vulnerabilities. If as each vulnerability is exploited we plan on taking drastic steps to secure it from future exploitation, the costs will be staggering and the list of unsecured items will hardly diminish. The result of the current approach is an authoritarian society with a neverending, self-justifying security project ahead of it. Sounds like a wonderful place to live if you're an insect. Mike
