Re: kuro5hin.org || How Home-Schooling Harms the Nation
-- On 31 Aug 2001, at 11:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First, you depend more than you think on government actions for essentials even though they have private brand labels. Second, why do you think that when someone is a government employee they are automatically inferior to everyone in the private sector? That's irrational. If someone in the private sector fails to please the customer, he does not get any money. If someone in the government sector fails to please the customer, tough luck for the customer. If the customer tries to do anything about it, he has the customer beaten up. Unsurprisingly, you get better service and products from the private sector. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG a21eN5yt4PeF/lTnRV4tQl5qv2vdpoch9zmrNw3H 4hJPCdOanWvOU31Y5QoQl0j0qowqJFwBL1WN8WEr7
Re: kuro5hin.org || How Home-Schooling Harms the Nation
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : zap my old stuff : Another facet is that the well-to-do are attempting to remove their funds from the systems so they can use those funds to educate their children as they choose. A voucher system would surely benefit me financially. This is a reasonable desire but it will have a negative effect on the public school systems and a subsequent negative effect on the society as a whole. So I must educate my children according to the public good, and not the good of the kids themselves? Fuck you. Learn to read poopyhead (isn't that now the official CP insult?). Actually, I think the currently hip term would be twit :-) Look at the part you snipped : I'm not saying that it (vouchers or other defunding) should be ruled out but you should at least think about the implications a bit. Which, in context, is clearly a justification of what follows it. All I said was that actions can have unintended consequences. No, you did not. Nowhere was this said or implied. What you said is above, so there is no need to QUOTE it here as well. Make well considered choices. Look at the power industry deregulation in CA. Too much, too quickly and poorly crafted. I am not endowed with any expertise on this topic, so I cannot make any considered judgement on the example. Having thrown out the required caveat, it seems to me that the deregulation was only a small part of the problem. Of course, I am truly talking out of my ass on this topic, so I will leave it here... By all means let's improve the educational opportunities in this country but not with some stooopid knee-jerk approach. The fact that you consider this a knee jerk response does not make it so: you have no way of knowing how much or little I have looked into this topic. As someone who has had 4 kids in various public and private schools, as well as person who has personally attended two private and three public schools, I have had ample incentive to look at homeschooling when it began to cross my radar about three years ago. My beliefs regarding homeschooling are very definitely _not_ knee-jerk reactions. And my statements regarding the state of the public schools is from personal first hand experience, both as a student, and as a parent. Try and do it in one fell swoop based on right-wing war chants and I'll bet you do more harm than good. What right wing war chants? Where the hell do you get the idea I'm a right wing type of guy? Just because I believe that home schooling is a Good Thing and that the public schools are a life threatening repository of brainwashing and bad karma? Last I heard, it took a LOT more than this to qualify as right wing. I know the masses are a bit thick but do you want them to be even thicker? To be frank, sending kids to public schools is practically *requiring* that they become thick, merely in order to _survive_. This statement is neither entirely true nor entirely false but it sure as hell is a knee-jerk reaction to the issue. Again with the knee jerk label. If it's a view you disagree with, it's a knee-jerk reaction, huh? Sounds like the sort of foolishness that Rush Limbaugh vomits on the airwaves. I wouldn't know, I don't have much use for Rush, and have only heard *about* his show. However, we again see the disparaging of view with which you disagree as terms such as foolishness. This position is hardly persuasive. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to WHY it is so foolish? Perhaps you can trade some FIRST HAND information you have on the state of the public schools, so that we may more readily examine the ISSUES before us, and not your assertions that all positions you disfavor are knee jerk reactions? I wish there were more ( and better ) educational choices and that those choices were reflected reasonably in the financial systems but every proposal I've seen so far sucks moose bladder through a hairy straw. While you claim to favor choices, you have just argued that these choices should not be available. Uh, nope, that's not what I said. I said I would be in favor of carefully considered proposals. Proposals that are fair to individuals and beneficial to the community. No. Your post did make several statements which claimed to favor proposals that were fair to the community, but NOT to individuals. Personally, I think the Good Of The Many depends totally upon the Good Of The Few. The macrocosmic must fail if the microcosmic is broken. Again, the two goals are neither completely compatible nor mutually exclusive. While I actually agree with this assertion to a degree, I would also caveat it with (1) I can only supply a very weak degree of confidence in the truth of this assertion, and (2) I am unable to compellingly argue either for or against it. This type of conundrum should lead the more analytic amongst us to examine these issues on a
Re: kuro5hin.org || How Home-Schooling Harms the Nation
Duncan Frissell wrote: On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All I said was that actions can have unintended consequences. Make well considered choices. Look at the power industry deregulation in CA. Too much, too quickly and poorly crafted. By all means let's improve the educational opportunities in this country but not with some stooopid knee-jerk approach. Try and do it in one fell swoop based on right-wing war chants and I'll bet you do more harm than good. Since we don't depend on the government for food, steel, concrete, or medical care (60% private money not much actual government acre delivery); why would we think that teaching by government employees would be efficient. First, you depend more than you think on government actions for essentials even though they have private brand labels. Second, why do you think that when someone is a government employee they are automatically inferior to everyone in the private sector? That's irrational. I've talked with several friends about pooling efforts and creating a small private school. It ain't easy. It is something I would like to do. The financial reform part is probably hopeless in the short term. Once the hooks are into the green they don't like to let go. We can argue about payment later (although taxing the poor to pay for the college education of the rich seems unfair), but no rational person can argue that socialist provision of services is superior to market provision in case like this. What the fuck do I care how the services are provided? Show me the services and I'll rate them myself without the benefit of your ideological prerating system. That's what rational means. I do resent the financial handcuffs. This statement is neither entirely true nor entirely false but it sure as hell is a knee-jerk reaction to the issue. Sounds like the sort of foolishness that Rush Limbaugh vomits on the airwaves. I can pick any public school teacher at random and cross ex them on the stand and establish that they don't know diddly squat. The concept that one should institutionalize one's children for 8 hours a day so that public officials can attempt to modify their knowledge, understanding, and physical and psychological deportment is the worst kind of child abuse. At future war crimes trials America's parents will have to answer for their crimes. (For those of you who attended slave schools, that last is a joke.) Big challenge, most people don't know diddly squat. It may be just as difficult to find or create alternative schools that are affordable ( even with financial reforms ) and provide a good education as it is to improve what we have. Out of the frying pan and into the fire. And not everyone has the ability to home-school for various reasons. All I said was that I don't think the solution to the problem is as simple as throwing it all away. Can you seriously argue that governments do a better job of education or that it's safe to trust them with the souls (in the religious and non-religious sense) of the innocent. Do a better job of education than ...? As for the religious bit, they're easily as dangerous as governments. I usually get the new car before I get rid of the old one. All I said is that before you dismantle what you don't like start building the replacement, get a few prototypes to the working stage. Apart from everything else one can say, attending slave schools subjects the child and the family to the full force of government record keeping. If you are not on the dole and you have no children in slave schools, your chances of having any sort of interaction with the minions of the coercive state apparatus are very substantially reduced. Much safer. Moderately interesting point. While you claim to favor choices, you have just argued that these choices should not be available. Yes, just like the employment choice of slavery should not be available because it's wrong (at least within my proprietary community). Your point? Uh, nope, that's not what I said. I said I would be in favor of carefully considered proposals. Proposals that are fair to individuals and beneficial to the community. Again, the two goals are neither completely compatible nor mutually exclusive. What's the community got to do with it? I should give up money and children because people who are demonstrably stupider than I am think it would be a good idea? I don't give barbers who can't cut my hair the way I want my money or my hair. Why on earth should I do it to my children? You live in a community. Been to a third world country? I don't really want to see that here. In some ways we have progressed in that direction over the past few decades... One thing I disliked about CA's recent attempt at the voucher system is that it would let some people take out more than they put in. It was still a socialist program. Funny that, coming from a generally right-wing
Re: kuro5hin.org || How Home-Schooling Harms the Nation
To : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Learn to read poopyhead (isn't that now the official CP insult?). Actually, I think the currently hip term would be twit :-) Dunno, I've seen both recently. Just trying to live up to my slave training and conform. Look at the part you snipped : I'm not saying that it (vouchers or other defunding) should be ruled out but you should at least think about the implications a bit. Which, in context, is clearly a justification of what follows it. All I said was that actions can have unintended consequences. No, you did not. Nowhere was this said or implied. What you said is above, so there is no need to QUOTE it here as well. Here's the original : Another facet is that the well-to-do are attempting to remove their funds from the systems so they can use those funds to educate their children as they choose. A voucher system would surely benefit me financially. This is a reasonable desire but it will have a negative effect on the public school systems and a subsequent negative effect on the society as a whole. I know the masses are a bit thick but do you want them to be even thicker? And not all bright people come from priviledged backgrounds. Do you want to limit the opportunities for some of the brightest kids in the country before they've even had a chance? I'm not saying that it (vouchers or other defunding) should be ruled out but you should at least think about the implications a bit. I would summarize this paragraph, poorly written as it may be, as follows : 1) Some people wish to remove their monies from the public schools and make their own choices. 2) Here are some possible negative effects of that action. 3) I'm not against it but at least think about the implications before acting. Looks pretty simple to me. Doesn't really take a position other than fine, measure twice, cut once if you want my vote. I am not endowed with any expertise on this topic, so I cannot make any considered judgement on the example. Having thrown out the required caveat, it seems to me that the deregulation was only a small part of the problem. Of course, I am truly talking out of my ass on this topic, so I will leave it here... I'm no expert on the details either but it looks like a chant of deregulate didn't work out so well. Expect to hear more chants of deregulate and privatize when it comes to things like power and water. I'm not sure which I prefer, a corporate dictatorship or a police state. The fact that you consider this a knee jerk response does not make it so: you have no way of knowing how much or little I have looked into this topic. As someone who has had 4 kids in various public and private schools, as well as person who has personally attended two private and three public schools, I have had ample incentive to look at homeschooling when it began to cross my radar about three years ago. My beliefs regarding homeschooling are very definitely _not_ knee-jerk reactions. And my statements regarding the state of the public schools is from personal first hand experience, both as a student, and as a parent. Try and do it in one fell swoop based on right-wing war chants and I'll bet you do more harm than good. What right wing war chants? Where the hell do you get the idea I'm a right wing type of guy? Just because I believe that home schooling is a Good Thing and that the public schools are a life threatening repository of brainwashing and bad karma? Last I heard, it took a LOT more than this to qualify as right wing. I know the masses are a bit thick but do you want them to be even thicker? To be frank, sending kids to public schools is practically *requiring* that they become thick, merely in order to _survive_. This statement is neither entirely true nor entirely false but it sure as hell is a knee-jerk reaction to the issue. Again with the knee jerk label. If it's a view you disagree with, it's a knee-jerk reaction, huh? Sounds like the sort of foolishness that Rush Limbaugh vomits on the airwaves. I wouldn't know, I don't have much use for Rush, and have only heard *about* his show. However, we again see the disparaging of view with which you disagree as terms such as foolishness. This position is hardly persuasive. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to WHY it is so foolish? Perhaps you can trade some FIRST HAND information you have on the state of the public schools, so that we may more readily examine the ISSUES before us, and not your assertions that all positions you disfavor are knee jerk reactions? I would say that I use the term knee-jerk and right-wing war chants as labels for the idea that all public schools are somehow seriously inferior to private schools or home schooling. Maybe the term knee-jerk is as poor as the idea of lumping all public schools into a single assessment. Furthermore, I think if you read what I've said you would not find that I flat out disagree with your attitudes about education but
Re: kuro5hin.org || How Home-Schooling Harms the Nation
On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:59:04AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Second, why do you think that when someone is a government employee they are automatically inferior to everyone in the private sector? That's irrational. Right. Folks in the policy arms of the federal government can be quite bright. I was in a White House office less than an hour ago meeting with two WH staffers and they were, as you might expect, smart and educated and well-spoken. Not sure how this observation translates to state governments or law enforcement types. -Declan
Re: kuro5hin.org || How Home-Schooling Harms the Nation
At 02:29 PM 8/31/01 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some jobs do not attract the best and brightest but I think it's safe to assume that even in what you might consider the least likely places you will find some very sharp people. Your example of the Bush WH staffers is proof ;) More seriously, this isn't a partisan thing. The Clinton WH folks I dealt on a day-to-day basis were just as sharp. -Declan
Re: kuro5hin.org || How Home-Schooling Harms the Nation
At 09:13 AM 8/29/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/8/28/1868/27867 I've been reading the cover article in Time magazine about home schooling, and it makes me wonder. One of the primary questions the article poses is this: Home schooling may turn out better students, but does it create better citizens? Also present is the accusation that home schooling threatens the current public education system: Home schooling is a social threat to public education, says Chris Lubienski, who teaches at Iowa State University's college of education. It is taking some of the most affluent and articulate parents out of the system. These are the parents who know how to get things done with administrators. Funny that, a State employee putting home education down. In any case, the notion that parents should sacrifice their children for the good of society is abhorrent.
Re: kuro5hin.org || How Home-Schooling Harms the Nation
David Honig [EMAIL PROTECTED] : At 09:13 AM 8/29/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2001/8/28/1868/27867 I've been reading the cover article in Time magazine about home schooling, and it makes me wonder. One of the primary questions the article poses is this: Home schooling may turn out better students, but does it create better citizens? Also present is the accusation that home schooling threatens the current public education system: Home schooling is a social threat to public education, says Chris Lubienski, who teaches at Iowa State University's college of education. It is taking some of the most affluent and articulate parents out of the system. These are the parents who know how to get things done with administrators. I think he's probably wrong here - I would guess that the most affluent and articulate parents send their kids to private schools because they're too busy keeping the lifestyle financed to run a school or realize that they would probably suck at it. If I win the Lotto I'll consider it. I'll risk $1 today. Funny that, a State employee putting home education down. Funny that, the only people I've ever met who were home schooling their kids were fundamentalist christians who objected to all kinds of perceived immorality and wrong teaching like sex ed and evolution. In my estimation they were poorly equipped to give their children a good education. I have no doubt that there are many exceptions to what I've seen but those who will do a really fine job of educating their children are probably in the minority of homeschoolers. In any case, the notion that parents should sacrifice their children for the good of society is abhorrent. You mean like when we send young males to war so the ones who stay home will have less competition? Keep an open mind about the home schooling/private schooling vs. public schooling discussion. One facet that I see is that fundamentalists via a strong influence on the republican party are trying to divert public funds to religious organizations. My reading of the 1st is that the state may not establish a religion. Giving money to a religious organization is tantamount to establishment. My reading of the 1st also leads me to the conclusion that the tax-exempt status of the churches is wrong. They should pay their fair share of the fucking property taxes like every other victim. Another facet is that the well-to-do are attempting to remove their funds from the systems so they can use those funds to educate their children as they choose. A voucher system would surely benefit me financially. This is a reasonable desire but it will have a negative effect on the public school systems and a subsequent negative effect on the society as a whole. I know the masses are a bit thick but do you want them to be even thicker? And not all bright people come from priviledged backgrounds. Do you want to limit the opportunities for some of the brightest kids in the country before they've even had a chance? I'm not saying that it (vouchers or other defunding) should be ruled out but you should at least think about the implications a bit. Aimee style question : How many of you were home schooled? How many went to private schools? How many went to public schools? I would guess roughly 1% 9% 90% I wish there were more ( and better ) educational choices and that those choices were reflected reasonably in the financial systems but every proposal I've seen so far sucks moose bladder through a hairy straw. Mike
