Re: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 04:14 AM, Fyodor wrote: >> <> talentless >> government to exist.>> >> >> Here we go again! I mean, I'm sure the Russian government is >> incompetent - >> but to decry that? Pray for more! The more incompetent they are, the >> more >> chances you have of developing an economy behind their backs. >> > > Wrong. Having russian background I guess I have more clear understanding > what these guys are trying to say: The government is definetely > ineffective in protecting its citizen, providing the social wealthfare > to them and such, but on the other hand the government corruption, deep > involvement with crimilal circles and udertable deals with big foreign > corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top > of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any number) > of > all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in > russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in > post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new > environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty. This matches everything I have seen about Russia. It simply is implausible that "corruption and inefficiency means more opportunities for economies behind their backs" (to summarize the argument). What Russia shows is that privatizing a state-run economy is difficult indeed. Gazprom, the big gas and energy company, is a case in point. There was no "free market" to acquire the resources of this "privatized" company: the thugs and apparatchniks (sp?) grabbed the company. And they are willing to use former KGB, GRU, and Spetsnaz killers to enforce their monopoly. What about non-heavy industry? Television, for example? Read about the ongoing shutdown of Moscow independent stations and networks, on flimsy grounds having the _language_ of capitalism (stuff about "loan default") but actually being just part of the thugocracy approach. (The U.S. is not blameless here. Our own FCC applies similar rules sometimes to block stations. And woe unto any Islamic broadcaster, where the new language is that the First Amendment does not apply to "hate speech" or "speech insulting to other religions." At this rate, the long-awaited convergence of Russia and America is not far off.) Russia as a haven for Havenco? For digital money? For e-commerce? Laughable. --Tim May > --Tim May "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet
Re: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
> < government to exist.>> > > Here we go again! I mean, I'm sure the Russian government is incompetent - > but to decry that? Pray for more! The more incompetent they are, the more > chances you have of developing an economy behind their backs. > Wrong. Having russian background I guess I have more clear understanding what these guys are trying to say: The government is definetely ineffective in protecting its citizen, providing the social wealthfare to them and such, but on the other hand the government corruption, deep involvement with crimilal circles and udertable deals with big foreign corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any number) of all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty. > is? Correct! More socialism! Why the heck would I do anything with my > resources, if almost all the revenue from it would be divided among the > vodka-drinking idiots of the country? (Well, I know, the new man and stuff.) not all are vodka drinking idiots. but your statement makes sense. :-) What's worse, is that it's been observed in some country side areas, when one guy is managing to do good on his land, the others get jealous or something, and his house could get burnt eventually with no reason.. happened a few times a few years ago. > allow that! There are CHILDREN there! (There is a solution to this too - > socialism is wonderful! We'll confiscate their land, vilify them for not Come on. Keep in mind that this statement was written by 'a party of pensioners'. Which means by people in age of 50 and above with strong socialist background. They are trying to find a solution to the problem, the only problem here, is that they still apply old patterns to it. > Of course, who cares about the fact that Russia is just a small part of the > Union? Union? Which Union? I doubt russia is welcomed to European Union (update me if I am wrong) and there's no former Soviet Union either. More over the Union of Idependent Countries, seems to be getting gone piece by piece, at least now you need to proper visa if you want to visit Russia from one of the 'former' republics. > income, but the state's, to be used as it sees fit. If I won't, then you'll > see a LOT of revenue going abroad - Russian electronics (to give just one > example) might be solid, but they're horrible when it comes to quality and > design. Quality is usually good. ;-) (you can use a pocket radio to hitch nails f.e. ;-)) Design is scarey, but that's a postsequence of post-socialism way of working. Noone cares if something looks good as long as it is practical ;-) [snip snip] whatever.. hope my comments are helpful ;-) -- http://www.notlsd.net PGP fingerprint = 56DD 1511 DDDA 56D7 99C7 B288 5CE5 A713 0969 A4D1
Re: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
From: "mattd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20043&group=webcast This is almost a classic... <> Good. You'd say the author has a brain. (Then again, why would mattd point to the article in that case?) But no... <> So, the problem is the government, but not because they're evil - no, that's ok; BECAUSE THEY'RE INEFFICIENT Hello? You wanted 99% - 1% instead of the 95% - 5% divide that you complain about now? <> Surprising only for those with no knowledge of economics. Without private property you can't have development. But wait! <> Here we go again! I mean, I'm sure the Russian government is incompetent - but to decry that? Pray for more! The more incompetent they are, the more chances you have of developing an economy behind their backs. <> The people don't exist, so they can't be natural owners of anything. SOME people - certain people, Ivan and Natasha and Grigori - can own previously unowned natural resources, if they use them first. But you can't *return* unowned property - you can only be the first to claim it. So, go there and claim it! (No, they'll shoot you. You can fight the government with better weapons or better ideology. So far, the ideology sucks.) <> Ok, so the problem is lack of private property (socialism), and the solution is? Correct! More socialism! Why the heck would I do anything with my resources, if almost all the revenue from it would be divided among the vodka-drinking idiots of the country? (Well, I know, the new man and stuff.) <> Ok, so russians don't have money to buy the land, but they have money to rent it. And the income from these rents? Why, it goes back to themselves! And so they'll get RICH, RICH, RICH!!! (Dammit, nobody figured this out before...) Of course, we could encourage the rich bastards to rent a lot of land, and so we'd take their money and redistribute it. Yes, but what happens if they subrent it, and then evict tenants for non-payment? We can't allow that! There are CHILDREN there! (There is a solution to this too - socialism is wonderful! We'll confiscate their land, vilify them for not being nice to people, and then ask them to rent it again, because we need their money.) [I just realized I use too many damn exclamation points. And profanity. Hmm... I must like this system.] <> Of course, who cares about the fact that Russia is just a small part of the Union? We're all one big family. (And now that I think about it, all those Eastern European satellites are just provinces in rebellion. They must join back or else.) <> Actually, the three *basic* factors are labor, natural resources (aka land), and TIME. Capital is simply producers goods - wealth that was built not for consumption, but to make future production more efficient. <> Oops. Are you sure you want to go there? If you compensate people based on their investment, then you'll have CAPITALISM! You don't want that! You want to compensate them *equally*, so that everyone stays at home and becomes a millionaire from the rents that all the others are paying! Yeah! <> The second statement is true, but it actually negates the first. If they were given to you, then they belong to you. <> Actually, your forefathers pretty much killed everyone that dared to oppose the state, plus they invaded other countries. Nothing's as good as a healthy dose of nerve, is it? <> Anyone close whack this guy over the head, will you? If revenue cannot belong to individuals, it can't belong to "the nation in the person of each Russian citizen". (Oh, wait a second, I might be wrong - Russian citizens might not be individuals, but parts of a super-organism. Who knows? I've never been there, it's too cold.) <> Definitely! Who needs work? We'll all sit and enjoy revenue from the land! (Thinking about who's going to pay those revenues is economics, and economic s is boring.) <> It is easy, but you failed. (Gee, how do you handle tough stuff?) The market works when there are buyers and sellers, period. Money is just an intermediary, one that gets developed by those buyers and sellers because it helps them find each other easier, and thus they make a better profit. (Oops! We can't use the p-word here!) <> They're not failing. They simply don't exist. You need private property in order to HAVE anything to sell or buy. <> This so reminds me of "we don't sell our country"... (Very popular slogan right after our "revolution".) Right in line with "we work, not think". Of course, this isn't impossible - after all, the people of Earth have managed to get by even without the help of the Martian Trade Federation, so Russia can do it without any trade with other countries. But the issue here is: if *I* want to trade with a foreigner (and thus send my income from rentals and natural resources abroad), will I be forcefully prevented from doing so? If I will, then it's not private property anymore - it's not MY income, but the state's, to be used as it sees
