Re: expiring bearer documents
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At 12:12 PM -0800 3/26/04, Major Variola (ret) wrote: At 01:59 PM 3/26/04 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: At 10:14 AM -0800 3/26/04, Major Variola (ret) wrote: The point is that the asset (a performance) which the bearer-document (ticket) grants access to expires. I think that's actually orthogonal to the ticket itself expiring. Okay. The inverse, maybe. No, they're orthogonal. You can have a persistant asset, your access to which expires; and you can have an ephemeral asset, access to which is persistant. Maybe you're talking about a derivative then. Nope. A contingent claim on an asset is called a derivative. An option, for instance, buys (or sells) a stock at a certain price before a certain date, or it's useless. A commodities future claims an asset at a certain price on a certain date, or its useless. Now, a ticket on a plane could be called a derivative, I suppose, but, technically, you're just renting that seat for that period of time. There's no extra-ordinary conditions under which that asset becomes more or less valuable. You're not contracting buy the seat if it's a certain price, for instance. You've bought an actual asset, a certain set of time-specific seat-miles. If you don't use them, then the ticket is worthless. It's a contract, and derivatives are contracts, but as we're seeing, all contracts are not derivatives. And, like a 10 year treasury note, appreciate with age. Isn't that the opposite of what you just said? Merely an example of an asset which gains value in a known way, the opposite of an asset which loses value in known way. Just to wade out into the financial weeds a little more, :-), most accepted methods of valuing bonds are to imagine them as options. You evaluate each coupon (an interest payment on a specific date) and the final principal payment as separate cashflows, and you use option pricing to model their total return. It works better that way, you can calculate what their minimum price should be at the time they expire, when the payments are due from the borrower, at which time a rational investor will cash them in and reinvest the return in something which make him more money. The reason I bring that up is that it's fairly simple to create a bearer bond like that out of chaumian blind-signature notes, one for each coupon, and one for the final principal payment. When I figured that out, and I remembered how you actually *calculate* total return on a bond, it was one of the biggest *Aha!* experiences I've ever felt. At that point I *knew* we were on to something around here. In short, you just auction off *each* piece of a bond as if it were a *separate* security, and let the market price their value. They do this already with treasuries, they're called strips, because you literally strip the coupons off and sell them, but with blind signatures, they're positively trivial. At that point I knew that the whole three-orders of magnitude cost-reduction thing was going to be chump-change compared to the possible market efficiencies of this stuff. It's breath-taking. The point is that any anonymous/finder's-spenders document is a form of cash; but some of these grant access to time-varying value. Well, actually, it's a bearer instrument. That is, it executes, clears, and settles all at once. And, yes, like any asset, you can *exchange* it for something else, and electronic forms of any asset make them more exchangeable, depreciating the necessity for a numeraire (national currency for you philosophy majors) as they got more and more efficient. That's what Gene Fama (efficient market) Fisher Black (Black-Sholes option pricing model) and company figured out in the early 80's calling the new monetary economics; in other words, why own dollars that don't pay a return when you can trade something that does, like, say, a mutual fund denominated in the SP 500) To wade further out into the weeds :-), cash, if you think about it in financial terms is, wait for it, :-), a zero-coupon perpetuity issued and redeemed at par. That means that it is technically a debt instrument, a bond, issued with an infinite life (a perpetuity), issued without coupons (doesn't make interest payments during its lifetime), issued and redeemed at par (its face value, so there's no implied implied interest, positive or negative). (My insight prompted by learning that its legal to resell tickets if you go through a licensed reseller. My impression had been that all such transactions were called scalping and called illegal (despite their being mutually voluntary) by the current regime.) Like the proverbial dog, the state does it because it can. Actually, the state just does what the ticket-issuer wants, because if the ticket-issuer doesn't make money, the state can't expropriate any from him. The funny part is, if market technology were efficient, the issuer could *auction* tickets, on the net, in bearer form, and people could buy them and
Re: expiring bearer documents
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At 9:48 PM -0800 3/25/04, Major Variola (ret) wrote: At 09:20 PM 3/25/04 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: Fine. Make it cheaper. Moore's Law creates geodesic networks, so let's have geodesic internet bearer transactions. Yesss! Its only taken a month or so of plonklessness, and we've got the geodesics back! Speak for yourself. :-). This recently occurred to me. There is a type of bearer document which is exactly like cash (anonymous, finder's keepers/spenders) *except* that it expires. Its called a concert ticket. The liquidators are called ticket agencies. I suppose if I were more cultured this would have occurred to me sooner. Apologies if obvious. They're also called checks payable to cash. Even Travellers' Checks. :-). You just redeem them and deposit, without reissuing like you would normally do on every transaction. Remember the *asset* is held in bearer *form*. There are no accounts required to execute/clear/settle the transaction. However a *certificate* representing ownership of that asset is redeemed/reissued on every transaction to prevent double spending and guarantee that the asset is now in the control of the certificate-holder. For instance, if someone does a transaction offline, stuff like Chaum's m-of-n where m=n=2 thing is supposed to un-blind a signature in the case of double spending, but the underwriter can't be expected to be liable anything. He just says, here's the signature that double spent. The 'train-locker' is empty. Thank you for playing. You might consider doing your transactions on-line from now on. BTW, I forwarded a link to something from Nick Szabo about tickets (but not necessarily access control) within the last week or so. I didn't read it closely, but you may find it interesting. Cheers, RAH -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBQGQr18PxH8jf3ohaEQKOnQCgvyWVFmQhGzvSz/f+AXaF8VoSDw0AnRLy P/p4yhi1TcgouZ0iOELxhb3O =rDUK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: expiring bearer documents
At 08:10 AM 3/26/04 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: At 9:48 PM -0800 3/25/04, Major Variola (ret) wrote: This recently occurred to me. There is a type of bearer document which is exactly like cash (anonymous, finder's keepers/spenders) *except* that it expires. Its called a concert ticket. Remember the *asset* is held in bearer *form*. There are no accounts required to execute/clear/settle the transaction. However a The point is that the asset (a performance) which the bearer-document (ticket) grants access to expires. I think that's actually orthogonal to the ticket itself expiring. Another example with a more gradual loss of value might be a bearer document for a certain amount of short half-life radioactive substance. Or just the substance --no documents, just assets-- though that's less portable than gold for health reasons. I suppose that some foodstuffs also show halflives. And, like a 10 year treasury note, appreciate with age.
Re: expiring bearer documents
At 01:59 PM 3/26/04 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: At 10:14 AM -0800 3/26/04, Major Variola (ret) wrote: The point is that the asset (a performance) which the bearer-document (ticket) grants access to expires. I think that's actually orthogonal to the ticket itself expiring. Okay. The inverse, maybe. No, they're orthogonal. You can have a persistant asset, your access to which expires; and you can have an ephemeral asset, access to which is persistant. Maybe you're talking about a derivative then. Nope. And, like a 10 year treasury note, appreciate with age. Isn't that the opposite of what you just said? Merely an example of an asset which gains value in a known way, the opposite of an asset which loses value in known way. The point is that any anonymous/finder's-spenders document is a form of cash; but some of these grant access to time-varying value. (My insight prompted by learning that its legal to resell tickets if you go through a licensed reseller. My impression had been that all such transactions were called scalping and called illegal (despite their being mutually voluntary) by the current regime.) (The interesting theme is that the properties of ordinary cash are separable and in some cases modifiable, as in the above time-sensitive cash or the finders-not-spenders variant I once described here, viz: One could create anonymous cash with the property that its *not* finder's-spenders because it has a PIN (basically a stored-value card); and that it would be recoverable if the anonymity were lost. )
expiring bearer documents
At 09:20 PM 3/25/04 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: Fine. Make it cheaper. Moore's Law creates geodesic networks, so let's have geodesic internet bearer transactions. Yesss! Its only taken a month or so of plonklessness, and we've got the geodesics back! :-) This recently occurred to me. There is a type of bearer document which is exactly like cash (anonymous, finder's keepers/spenders) *except* that it expires. Its called a concert ticket. The liquidators are called ticket agencies. I suppose if I were more cultured this would have occurred to me sooner. Apologies if obvious.
