The internment taboo

[R. A. Hettinga]

Townhall.com

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The internment taboo
John Leo (back to web version) | Send

September 20, 2004

 Thanks to columnist Michelle Malkin, we are at last moving toward our
first national discussion on the wisdom and fairness of interning 100,000
ethnic Japanese during World War II. For at least a generation, the issue
has been positioned as closed and undebatable--the evacuation of Japanese
aliens and Japanese-American citizens from the West Coast was simply due to
racism and wartime hysteria. This orthodox view is reflected in histories,
textbooks, fiction, and museums. Plausible reasons for the evacuation are
almost always dropped from these presentations, and racism is simply
assumed ("Ancestry Is Not a Crime" is one curriculum title).
In her book In Defense of Internment, Malkin argues that President
Roosevelt's order to move ethnic Japanese from the coast was at the very
least a close call and can be viewed as a reasonable and mild decision,
given the vulnerabilities of the United States to raids and attacks
supported by a small minority of Issei (Japanese aliens) and Nisei
(Japanese-Americans, many of whom held dual citizenship).

 With most of the U.S. fleet destroyed at Pearl Harbor, the Pacific became
a Japanese pond, and in a series of raids, Japanese subs sank U.S. ships
off the coast, shelled California's Goleta Oil Fields, and torpedoed a ship
that escaped by running aground in the mouth of the Columbia River. In the
view of Secretary of War Henry Stimson, "It was quite impossible to be sure
that the raiders would not receive important help from individuals of
Japanese origin."

 The core of Malkin's book concerns the so-called Magic
messages--intercepted and decoded Japanese messages sent to and from Japan
and kept secret by the United States until 1977. The Magic messages were
startling. By mid-1941 the Japanese had set up an extensive espionage
network along America's West Coast, recruiting Issei and Nisei and
surveilling near military bases, shipyards, airfields, and ports. A
Honolulu cell provided important last-minute help to the attackers at Pearl
Harbor. Though the U.S. intelligence community knew that the vast majority
of ethnic Japanese in America were no threat, it also knew that the
Japanese government was beaming messages of ultranationalism, sometimes
calling on Nisei to return to Japan for political or military training--the
madrasahs of the day. A secret U.S. government estimate said perhaps 3,500
ethnic Japanese in America were active supporters of the Japanese war
effort. After the war, Japan said that 1,648 Japanese-American citizens had
fought in Japan's Army. Other estimates set the number as high as 7,000. In
1944, when the United States gave American Japanese a chance to renounce
their U.S. citizenship, some 5,620 did so, and 2,031 left for Japan.

 Orthodox anti-internment historians generally discount the role of the
Magic messages. Canadian historian Greg Robinson, who recently denounced
Malkin's "crackpot book," mentioned the messages glancingly in two
sentences of his 2001 book, By Order of the President, and spent a great
deal of space musing about FDR's racial attitudes.

 In February of1942, Roosevelt issued the order that led to the evacuation
of Japanese and members of other ethnic groups from the West Coast, as
Canada and Mexico had already done. German and Italian aliens accounted for
14,183 of the U.S. internee population. Because of the intercepted Magic
messages and the Japanese raids along the coast, the United States was
primarily concerned with the Japanese population, but neither the stats nor
the language of the order sustains the charge of racism.

 The initial evacuation was only on the West Coast. Nisei and Issei further
east were left alone. The U.S. government assumed, or hoped, that evacuees
would find suitable jobs and homes in the interior, but only 5,000 to
10,000 did. The camps were set up when most evacuees either couldn't or
wouldn't move east on their own. As Malkin points out, evacuees at first
were free to leave the camps if they found work or educational
opportunities outside--some 4,300 left the camps to attend college. Camp
conditions were often harsh, and the evacuation attached a harmful stigma
to all Japanese in America. But Roosevelt, much of America's liberal
establishment, and the Supreme Court signed off on evacuation as a
reasonable step taken under extreme wartime pressure.

Malkin's point is that if the threat to the survival of America is severe
enough, some civil liberties must yield. She is right that the internment
issue is currently being wielded as a club to prevent reasonable extra
scrutiny of suspect Arabs and Muslims. But the twin towers were not brought
down by militant Swedish nuns. It is always reasonable to look in the
direction from which the gravest danger is coming. It's also reasonable and
important to open an honest discussion 

Re: :-) (was re: How one can become a terrorist?)

[R. A. Hettinga]

At 9:30 PM -0500 9/19/04, J.A. Terranson wrote:
>This is a well known joe-job.

Well, *sure*.

Too bad they didn't put blacknet's address on it, or something...

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Academics locked out by tight visa controls

[R. A. Hettinga]

Posted on Mon, Sep. 20, 2004

Academics locked out by tight visa controls
U.S. SECURITY BLOCKS FREE EXCHANGE OF IDEAS
By Bruce Schneier


Cryptography is the science of secret codes, and it is a primary Internet
security tool to fight hackers, cyber crime, and cyber terrorism. CRYPTO is
the world's premier cryptography conference. It's held every August in
Santa Barbara.

This year, 400 people from 30 countries came to listen to dozens of talks.
Lu Yi was not one of them. Her paper was accepted at the conference. But
because she is a Chinese Ph.D. student in Switzerland, she was not able to
get a visa in time to attend the conference.

In the three years since 9/11, the U.S. government has instituted a series
of security measures at our borders, all designed to keep terrorists out.
One of those measures was to tighten up the rules for foreign visas.
Certainly this has hurt the tourism industry in the U.S., but the damage
done to academic research is more profound and longer-lasting.

According to a survey by the Association of American Universities, many
universities reported a drop of more than 10 percent in foreign student
applications from last year. During the 2003 academic year, student visas
were down 9 percent. Foreign applications to graduate schools were down 32
percent, according to another study by the Council of Graduate Schools.

There is an increasing trend for academic conferences, meetings and
seminars to move outside of the United States simply to avoid visa hassles.

This affects all of high-tech, but ironically it particularly affects the
very technologies that are critical in our fight against terrorism.

Also in August, on the other side of the country, the University of
Connecticut held the second International Conference on Advanced
Technologies for Homeland Security. The attendees came from a variety of
disciplines -- chemical trace detection, communications compatibility,
X-ray scanning, sensors of various types, data mining, HAZMAT clothing,
network intrusion detection, bomb diffusion, remote-controlled drones --
and illustrate the enormous breadth of scientific know-how that can
usefully be applied to counterterrorism.

It's wrong to believe that the U.S. can conduct the research we need alone.
At the Connecticut conference, the researchers presenting results included
many foreigners studying at U.S. universities. Only 30 percent of the
papers at CRYPTO had only U.S. authors. The most important discovery of the
conference, a weakness in a mathematical function that protects the
integrity of much of the critical information on the Internet, was made by
four researchers from China.

Every time a foreign scientist can't attend a U.S. technology conference,
our security suffers. Every time we turn away a qualified technology
graduate student, our security suffers. Technology is one of our most
potent weapons in the war on terrorism, and we're not fostering the
international cooperation and development that is crucial for U.S. security.

Security is always a trade-off, and specific security countermeasures
affect everyone, both the bad guys and the good guys. The new U.S.
immigration rules may affect the few terrorists trying to enter the United
States on visas, but they also affect honest people trying to do the same.

All scientific disciplines are international, and free and open information
exchange -- both in conferences and in academic programs at universities --
will result in the maximum advance in the technologies vital to homeland
security. The Soviet Union tried to restrict academic freedom along
national lines, and it didn't do the country any good. We should try not to
follow in those footsteps.

BRUCE SCHNEIER is a security technologist and chief technology officer of
Counterpane Internet Security, Inc., in Mountain View. He wrote this for
the Mercury News.

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Geopolitical Darwin Awards

[Tyler Durden]

John Young wrote...
from school and fucked up parents who use you like a
beast of burden -- in every age and country.

The military has found that teenagers are better fighters
than those over 21, more malleable, patriotic, healthy, ready
to kill when told it's okay. . Grunts younger than 20 are
the universal soldier. Non-caucasians especially.
Hum. I wonder if it's a coincidence that the US school system is such a 
mess. What on earth would we do if non-caucasians, especially, were equipped 
for some kind of opportunity? Guess we'd have to start the draft again, and 
folks get kinda touchy when the exemptions are a little too obvious.

-TD

From: John Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Geopolitical Darwin Awards
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:46:27 -0700
James A. Donald:
>I don't recall the American revolutionaries herding children
>before them to clear minefields, nor surrounding themselves
>with children as human shields.
No, not minefields, but a good percentage of Washington's
army and that of the French, were children. Young boys were
taught the art of war as gofers and undercover spies among
the Brits. Some were caught and executed. Others packed
weapons and fought like men who welcomed their foolhardy
bravery when their manly courage withered.
Today, even the US uses children in war, 17 being the minimum
age to enlist. Others sneak in by lying about their age, some as
young as 14. Recruiters look the other way when the kids
and their parents lie. Been there, done that. Enlisted in the
army at 15, served months before being kicked out when a
relative ratted on me. Went in again at 17. That was not
uncommon then, and still is not. Good way to get away
from school and fucked up parents who use you like a
beast of burden -- in every age and country.
The military has found that teenagers are better fighters
than those over 21, more malleable, patriotic, healthy, ready
to kill when told it's okay. Older guys and gals think for
themselves too much to charge a machine gun. A kid
thinks life will never end. That's why it's not so hard
to cultivate suicide bombers.
Flying a $50 million plane is a piece of cake, no guts
required. Fuck those stand-off cowards in artillery,
the navy and air force. Grunts younger than 20 are
the universal soldier. Non-caucasians especially.
No need to mention today's Africans, the pre-teens and
teens Mao used effectively, the underage North Koreans
in the Korean Conflict, and not least the Amerindians who
taught kids from puberty to make war -- boys and girls.
It is worth pondering that older guys don't like war up
close, in fact the the further away it is the better they
like to promote it with Stallonian filmic ferocity -- witness
the current yellow-bellied administration, though hardly
the first to cry for war to be fought by disposable youngsters.
What older soft-gutted guys in all nations like most is the
Wagnerian tragedy, the soap opera sturm and drang, of
other people's suffering and death for their loose-screw
agenda.
_
Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and 
more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx

Re: :-) (was re: How one can become a terrorist?)

[J.A. Terranson]

This is a well known joe-job.


On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:10:12 -0400
> From: R. A. Hettinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: :-) (was re: How one can become a terrorist?)
>
>
>
> --- begin forwarded text
>
>
> Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Received: from bullae.ibuc.com ([unix socket])
>   by bullae.ibuc.com (Cyrus v2.1.13) with LMTP; Sun, 19 Sep 2004
> 21:29:53 -0400
> X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
> Received: from cpe-066-061-026-172.midsouth.rr.com
> (cpe-066-061-026-172.midsouth.rr.com [66.61.26.172])
>   by bullae.ibuc.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C8526827C8D
>   for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:29:52 -0400 (EDT)
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:33:55 +
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: How one can become a terrorist?
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
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-- 
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

  "...justice is a duty towards those whom you love and those whom you do
  not.  And people's rights will not be harmed if the opponent speaks out
  about them."  Osama Bin Laden
- - -

  "There aught to be limits to freedom!"George Bush
- - -

Which one scares you more?

Re: potential new IETF WG on anonymous IPSec

[John Kelsey]

>From: "Major Variola (ret)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Sep 17, 2004 10:27 PM
>To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: potential new IETF WG on anonymous IPSec

>At 06:20 AM 9/17/04 +, Justin wrote:
>>On 2004-09-16T20:11:56-0700, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
..
>>Oh, come on.  Nothing can be absolutely trusted.  How much security is
>>enough?

>>Aren't the DOD CAs trusted enough for your tastes?  Of course, 'tis
>>problematic for civilians to get certs from there.

>DoD certs are good enough for DoD slaves.  Hospital certs are good
>enough for their employees.  Joe's Bait Und Tackle certs are good enough
>for Joe's employees.  Do you think that Verislime is good enough for
>you?

You seem to have rediscovered the fact that crypto can move trust around, but can't 
create any.  You have to decide to trust someone for it to be useful.  The great 
problem with practically using this stuff is getting someone that you're comfortable 
trusting, who can then use crypto to move the trust around in a sensible way.  

The condition necessary for Verisign certificates to have a lot of trust, to me, is 
for the appearance of a fraudulent Verisign certificate to be a major scandal, leading 
to the CEO getting canned, the stock price dropping by some large fraction, and a huge 
fall-off of business for their CA.  When that isn't the case (for the high security 
certs; it's clearly silly to expect it for low-security ones), the CA doesn't have as 
much incentive as I'd like to be careful about forgeries.  You'd like the exposure of 
a fraudulent certificate signed by a CA to have the same kind of effect as the 
exposure of a bank being unable to produce the money a depositor demands.  

Fraudulent certificates issued for any purpose--whether furnishing fake IDs to FBI 
agents, or to Al Qaida terrorists, or to random Nigerian-scam operators--leave a 
permanent trail; the recipient of the certificate can show it around when he discovers 
it's fraudulent.  If the last step of this protocol for the CA is "and then you go out 
of business," the incentives not to issue fraudulent certificates looks right.  

--John

Re: Academics locked out by tight visa controls

[Adam Shostack]

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 10:03:57AM -0400, John Kelsey wrote:

| >Academics locked out by tight visa controls
| >U.S. SECURITY BLOCKS FREE EXCHANGE OF IDEAS
| >By Bruce Schneier
| 
| I guess I've been surprised this issue hasn't seen a lot more
| discussion.  It takes nothing more than to look at the names of the
| people doing PhDs and postdocs in any technical field to figure out
| that a lot of them are at least of Chinese, Indian, Arab, Iranian,
| Russian, etc., ancestry.  And only a little more time to find out that
| a lot of them are not citizens, and have a lot of hassles with respect
| to living and working here.  What do you suppose happens to the US
| lead in high-tech, when we *stop* drawing in some large fraction of
| the smartest, hardest-working thousandth of a percent of mankind?   

Those people don't get a vote.  The politicians in question will be
dead and gone before the slope of the curve changes anything.  Why
*would* we discuss it?

Adam the cynic.

Re: Geopolitical Darwin Awards

[Tim]

John Young wrote:
What older soft-gutted guys in all nations like most is the 
Wagnerian tragedy, the soap opera sturm and drang, of 
other people's suffering and death for their loose-screw 
agenda. 
 

  You demonstrate that point well.

project help

[auto479809]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I'm putting together a little project that may soon cause a bit of a
stir (ie 'soon', as in (hopefully) the next few weeks, to leverage the
2004 US election cycle).  The goal is nothing short of bringing a very
large dose of hard (tar-and-feathers level real) accountability to public
life, and changing the course of political history, forever.  Big stuff,
 to be sure, but it's _very_ doable.

It's remarkably simple concept, quite legal, and very moral.  Had it
been operational two years ago, *theory* has it that Gulf War V2.0 may
not have occurred.  Practice, of course, may not work out exactly as
that (given the determination of the players involved), but the potential
to have that sort of impact is there.

If successful, it should be quite popular amongst the people, and peoples,
 of the world.

However...(and, I must admit, it's a pretty big 'however'), it's also
going to *seriously* piss off a lot of very powerful people.  Namely,
  a significant number (probably the majority), of politicians, law enforcement
officials (including every three-letter acronym out there), the judiciary...and
basically every other public servant, and other entity (individual, or
group) that holds - and betrays - the public trust in some way, including
private and public corporations - in basically (soon enough) every jurisdiction
around the world.

I'd like to be able to do it all anonymously, but, most unfortunately,
 that's probably not possible, and I may have to go public too.  So,
I have to consider that there's potentially a world of hurt headed my
way when this breaks.  I am, of course, taking precautions, should I
be "suicided" (for the record: I wouldn’t!), or otherwise sidetracked.
 I'm also looking to enact multiply-redundant, distributed systems, across
jurisdictions, so that it is highly resistant to concerted attack by
legal or illegal, overt or covert means.  Basically, it will be set up
so that it is automatic, redundant, and personality independent, ie unstoppable.

That said, I'm a far better information-absorbing lurker than I am a
hacking cypherpunk. I have some knowledge, but not nearly enough to put
up more than token resistance to a determined attacker with effectively
"unlimited" resources.  I need help.

For starters, I'd like some list-level feedback on what sort of basic
precautions I should be taking (No need to go street level - I'm *reasonably*
well researched).  Where possible, I want to err on the side of paranoid,
 and stay away from anything with the potential to have a back door in
it, or anything else not guaranteed safe.  E.g. Use OpenBSD; don't use
__ processors, etc.

OpenPGP, Mixmaster (5-chain?), Mixminion (when secure - Hurry, please
Nick!), Freenet, Tor (maybe - though it's not ready yet, and I don't
like the US Navy involvement...though it is os for now), secure data
havens (where??), and whatever other tools I can throw up as resistance,
 or to guarantee survivability, I will.  But I need help in putting it
all together.

That brings me to my next point.  I would be interested in practical
offers of assistance.  I'm not going to go into any details of what's
involved here.  Suffice to say, it's not an overly complex operation
that any reasonably competent cp should be able to handle and, as I said,
  it should be up and running within a matter of weeks.  Please send
such offers directly to the above hushmail account.  (repeat: it _is_
legal,  and very moral.  You will be doing nothing "wrong"!)  If I can't
check you out somehow (you can suggest how I may - but I may or may not
use those particular sources), expect no reply (sorry, but I have to
be paranoid here - the last thing I need right now is to bring in the
"wrong" kind of help!

If you are an ideologue and like the idea of kicking Them where it hurts,
 or just like the idea of defending against the best of the best, from
all over the world, to see how you match up, I’d love to hear from you.
 If you wish to volunteer, that'd be terrific!  If you wish instead to
for-fee consult, let me know how you operate – it’s not out of the question.
 Resources aren't unlimited, but there'll be "enough" to get it across
the line; I'm putting all I can into it.

Oh, BTW, if this fires (as I am confident it will), there will likely
be at least one (probably more) mainstream, legit, permanent, security
role on offer.  That said, given the shit that will likely go down, from
those determined to stop this, I'd understand anyone not wanting to be
associated with it - publicly - post-launch.

Any feedback/help, much appreciated...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Note: This signature can be verified at https://www.hushtools.com/verify
Version: Hush 2.4

wkYEARECAAYFAkFO5MIACgkQgVEg0zWEQ7xkOgCfUuWEyIS/LTH03LCOrl89ZMWAXusA
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Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Free, ul

Re: Academics locked out by tight visa controls

[John Kelsey]

>From: "R. A. Hettinga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Sep 20, 2004 8:33 AM
>Subject: Academics locked out by tight visa controls

>

>Posted on Mon, Sep. 20, 2004

>Academics locked out by tight visa controls
>U.S. SECURITY BLOCKS FREE EXCHANGE OF IDEAS
>By Bruce Schneier

..

I guess I've been surprised this issue hasn't seen a lot more discussion.  It takes 
nothing more than to look at the names of the people doing PhDs and postdocs in any 
technical field to figure out that a lot of them are at least of Chinese, Indian, 
Arab, Iranian, Russian, etc., ancestry.  And only a little more time to find out that 
a lot of them are not citizens, and have a lot of hassles with respect to living and 
working here.  What do you suppose happens to the US lead in high-tech, when we *stop* 
drawing in some large fraction of the smartest, hardest-working thousandth of a 
percent of mankind?  

--John

Re: Geopolitical Darwin Awards

[Tyler Durden]

Tim wrote...
  You demonstrate that point well.
Hum. Spend a lot of time with binoculars, do we? How much does the FBI pay 
field ops these days?

-TD
_
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

Re: Geopolitical Darwin Awards

[James A. Donald]

James A. Donald:
> > I don't recall the American revolutionaries herding children
> > before them to clear minefields, nor surrounding themselves
> > with children as human shields.

John Young
> No, not minefields, but a good percentage of Washington's
> army and that of the French, were children. Young boys were
> taught the art of war as gofers and undercover spies among
> the Brits. Some were caught and executed.

In no way does this compare to the Iranian method for clearing 
minefields, or Sadr's use of five year old children as human shields.

Re: Geopolitical Darwin Awards

[J.A. Terranson]

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote:

> (Remember the
> Hiroshima bomb was *not* tested, so sure were the scientists.  Trinity

My understanding (and I am *positive* someone will correct me if I'm
wrong) was that there was a shortage of both fissionable materials and
appropriate [altimeter] fuse mechanisms, making testing a outside of enemy
territory a losing proposition.

-- 
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

  "...justice is a duty towards those whom you love and those whom you do
  not.  And people's rights will not be harmed if the opponent speaks out
  about them."  Osama Bin Laden
- - -

  "There aught to be limits to freedom!"George Bush
- - -

Which one scares you more?

Re: Geopolitical Darwin Awards

[Tim]

 Is there any reason other than you being stupid & anxious to offer 
some feeble witticism for you to wonder if "we" use binoculars often?  
More importantly (at least to some of us), how is that relevent to anything?

Tyler Durden wrote:
Tim wrote...
  You demonstrate that point well.

Hum. Spend a lot of time with binoculars, do we? How much does the FBI 
pay field ops these days?

-TD

Re: The internment taboo

[Jason Holt]

A related book on MAGIC and the Japanese internment is "MAGIC: The untold
story of U.S. Intelligence and the evacuation of Japanese residents from the
West Coast during WW II".  Website here:

http://www.athenapressinc.com/

Some of the folks involved in that project also set up this site, which has
scans of a lot of relevant primary sources:

http://www.internmentarchives.com/


-J

Re: Geopolitical Darwin Awards

[Tyler Durden]

"Tim" wrote...
 Is there any reason other than you being stupid & anxious to offer some 
feeble witticism for you to wonder if "we" use binoculars often?  More 
importantly (at least to some of us), how is that relevent to anything?
..so that would be a yes, then?
I'm always interested in sniffing out contributing FEDs...it helps to 
determine whether you really believe what you're saying, or whether it's 
just part of your job. I'm guessing that your email "nightwatch" is also 
indicative of the latter.

-TD
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Re: Geopolitical Darwin Awards

[Tim]

Tyler Durden wrote:
"Tim" wrote...
 Is there any reason other than you being stupid & anxious to offer 
some feeble witticism for you to wonder if "we" use binoculars 
often?  More importantly (at least to some of us), how is that 
relevent to anything?

...so that would be a yes, then?
 It's a no, which sure seems to be your answer to my first question.
I'm always interested in sniffing out contributing FEDs...it helps to 
determine whether you really believe what you're saying, or whether 
it's just part of your job. I'm guessing that your email "nightwatch" 
is also indicative of the latter.
  I've said so very little here, but I do believe everything I've 
"said."  I'm still at a loss as to how what little I've said (written) 
here would allow any reasonable person to start assuming or even 
guessing that I use binoculars frequently and that I must be some sort 
of "FED."  In fact, I don't think a responable person could assume that, 
but then, from what I've seen of this forum so far, it's set up for 
venting obnoxious political diatribes based on dumb/paranoid assumptions 
('He made an unfavorable, on-point response to John Young, therefore, 
he's probably a FED!') & guesses, not reasonable, intellectual 
discourse.  Your 'Nightwatch' speculation is rather amusing too.  I 
won't humiliate & confuse you with the truth.

  Thanks for the dance!  It waseducational, but now I'm bored of 
going in circles.  :)

-TD

Re: Academics locked out by tight visa controls

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

At 08:03 AM 9/20/2004, John Kelsey wrote:
I guess I've been surprised this issue hasn't seen a lot more 
discussion.  It takes nothing more than to look at the names of the people 
doing PhDs and postdocs in any technical field to figure out that a lot of 
them are at least of Chinese, Indian, Arab, Iranian, Russian, etc., 
ancestry.  And only a little more time to find out that a lot of them are 
not citizens, and have a lot of hassles with respect to living and working 
here.  What do you suppose happens to the US lead in high-tech, when we 
*stop* drawing in some large fraction of the smartest, hardest-working 
thousandth of a percent of mankind?

in '94 there was report (possibly sjmn?) that said at least half of all 
cal. univ. tech. PHDs were awarded to foreign born. during some of the tech 
green card discussions in the late '90s ... it was pointed out that the 
internet boom (bubble) was heavily dependent on all these foreign born  
since there was hardly enuf born in the usa to meet the demand.

in the late 90s there were some reports that many of these graduates had 
their education paid by their gov. with directions to enter an us company 
in strategic high tech areas for 4-8 years  and then return home as 
tech transfer effort. i was told in the late 90s about one optical 
computing group in a high tech operation  where all members of the 
group fell into this category (foreign born with obligation to return home 
after some period).

another complicating factor competing for resources during the late 90s 
high-tech, internet boom (bubble?) period was the significant resource 
requirement for y2k remediation efforts.

nsf had recent study on part of this
http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/infbrief/ib.htm
graduate enrollment in science and engineering fields reaches new peak; 1st 
time enrollment of foreign students drops
http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/infbrief/nsf04326/start.htm

--
Anne & Lynn Wheelerhttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ 

Re: Geopolitical Darwin Awards

[Tyler Durden]

 It's a no, which sure seems to be your answer to my first question.
OK, I understand the "stupid" part, but not the "anxious" part. Should I be 
concerned about your interest in Cypherpunks?

('He made an unfavorable, on-point response to John Young,
On-point? It sounded like a mere insult, without zero substance behind it. 
In general, I have found that Cypherpunks knock the CRAP out of each other 
(kind of a 'Fight Club'), but most of the swipes are backed with a lot of 
logic and facts. I saw nether in your little post, so in the context of your 
long-term contributions, I thought I'd give you the sniff-test. As of right 
now, there's the faint smell of shit in the air.

speculation is rather amusing too.  I won't humiliate & confuse you with 
the truth.
That better not be a reference to King Crimson. As leader of the Cypherpunks 
(I am declaring my leadership right now effective for the duration of this 
post), I hereby FORBID you to listen to King Crimson. Please keep your ears 
on Yes/Gentle Giant/Jethro Tull and so on.

  Thanks for the dance!  It waseducational, but now I'm bored of going 
in circles.  :)
I've seen that "I'm bored" comment many times on the Internet. I'll 
translate for you:

"I want to continue to take baseless swipes at opinionated list members, but 
now that you've called me on it I really don't want to have to defend what 
I'm saying, so I'll stop posting until you've forgotten about this 
incident."

Gotcha.
-TD
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Re: Academics locked out by tight visa controls

[John Ioannidis]

There was an article in the International Herald Tribune some time in
the May-June timeframe, where the President or one of the Deans at
Harvard pointed out exactly this problem.  I can't find the article in
the NYT/IHT/etc archives -- did anyone else see it?

/ji

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 10:50:18AM -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 10:03:57AM -0400, John Kelsey wrote:
> 
> | >Academics locked out by tight visa controls
> | >U.S. SECURITY BLOCKS FREE EXCHANGE OF IDEAS
> | >By Bruce Schneier
> | 
> | I guess I've been surprised this issue hasn't seen a lot more
> | discussion.  It takes nothing more than to look at the names of the
> | people doing PhDs and postdocs in any technical field to figure out
> | that a lot of them are at least of Chinese, Indian, Arab, Iranian,
> | Russian, etc., ancestry.  And only a little more time to find out that
> | a lot of them are not citizens, and have a lot of hassles with respect
> | to living and working here.  What do you suppose happens to the US
> | lead in high-tech, when we *stop* drawing in some large fraction of
> | the smartest, hardest-working thousandth of a percent of mankind?   
> 
> Those people don't get a vote.  The politicians in question will be
> dead and gone before the slope of the curve changes anything.  Why
> *would* we discuss it?
> 
> Adam the cynic.
> 
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