Re: Code name Killer Rabbit: New Sub Can Tap Undersea Cables
No! Undersea? Do you take a copy of EVERYTHING and send it back? That might have been more feasible in the old days, but when a single fiber can run 64 wavelength optically amplified 10 Gig traffic, I really really doubt it. Or at least, this would require an undertaking large enough that I doubt they could hide it. If they select some traffic then we have to ask, how do they select the traffic? Even there the mind boggles thinking about the kinds of gear necessary. I suspect it's a combination of all sorts of stuff...remember too that all that traffic has to land somewhere, so theoretically they can access a good deal of it terrestrially. What you might see, therefore, is a sheath coming out of, say Iran, is tapped for fibers that proceed on to other unfriendly nations, and a copy of the traffic pulled back to some nearby land-based station in a friendly country (so that lots of amplifiers aren't needed). I'd bet you do see the occasional Variola suitcase, though, requiring a sub visit once in a while. But I bet they avoid this kind of thing as much as possible, given the traffic volumes. -TD From: Matt Crawford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: crypto cryptography@metzdowd.com CC: osint@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Code name Killer Rabbit: New Sub Can Tap Undersea Cables Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:33:56 -0600 On Feb 18, 2005, at 19:47, R.A. Hettinga wrote: It does continue to be something of a puzzle as to how they get this stuff back to home base, said John Pike, a military expert at GlobalSecurity.org. I should think that in many cases, they can simply lease a fiber in the same cable. What could be simpler?
Re: Code name Killer Rabbit: New Sub Can Tap Undersea Cables
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:01:05 -0500, Tyler Durden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Do you take a copy of EVERYTHING and send it back? That might have been more feasible in the old days, but when a single fiber can run 64 wavelength optically amplified 10 Gig traffic, I really really doubt it. Or at least, this would require an undertaking large enough that I doubt they could hide it. DWDM certainly makes it more complicated. Of course, that same technology allows them to send much more back. (Regarding the single OC-3 mentioned previously.) How they process and return the information is indeed the BIG SECRET. The old USSR taps used pods attached to the cables for recording and were serviced periodically to pick up the collected data. See also: http://cryptome.org/nsa-fibertap.htm ... I suspect it's a combination of all sorts of stuff...remember too that all that traffic has to land somewhere, so theoretically they can access a good deal of it terrestrially. If you look at the landing sites for various oceanic fiber cables you will see that a great many of them are on friendly territory. You can be sure that these lines are tapped. (Which brings up the issue someone else mentioned a while ago. We make a big deal about ECHELON monitoring satellites, yet no one really cares about the tapping of landing sites that carry many times more information? Silly humans) I presume the fiber tapping submarine is interested mainly in those cables which don't land on friendly territory or the sections landed between unfriendly sites. (E.g. not all data goes through all sites) What you might see, therefore, is a sheath coming out of, say Iran, is tapped for fibers that proceed on to other unfriendly nations, and a copy of the traffic pulled back to some nearby land-based station in a friendly country (so that lots of amplifiers aren't needed). This would be a reasonable assumption. But so would a number of other possible techniques. The great mystery continues... Best regards,
Re: Code name Killer Rabbit: New Sub Can Tap Undersea Cables
DWDM certainly makes it more complicated. Of course, that same technology allows them to send much more back. (Regarding the single OC-3 mentioned previously.) Well, DISTANCE makes it more complicated first of all. You need undersea repeaters and/or OFAs in order to get traffic from most parts of the ocean back to land, and the NSA will in many cases not want nor be able to use the host service providers' OFAs. This would mean they'd have to install their own, and I doubt they're going to just plop on their own regeneration site on the outside of a civilian cable. Hum. In some parts of the ocean they must almost certainly have their own cable and then couple stolen traffic into it. I'd bet there also must exist some mini-Echelons on some Islands somewhere (like Majorca or the Azores) where they do some grooming and listening. -TD
RE: Code name Killer Rabbit: New Sub Can Tap Undersea Cables
When I was in Telecom we audited pieces of an undersea NSA network that was based on OC-3 ATM. It had some odd components, however, including reflective-mode LiNBO3 modulators and even acousto-optic modulators. (Actually, one of the components started dying which put them into a near-frenzy...it turned out we had someone who happened to know the designer of that very piece and so understood the failure mode completely.) My theory is that they were multiplexing their OC-3-collected information back over the same set of fibers the intelligence came from, or else re-routed it to another friendly cable nearby. These days, however, a la Variola I don't think that a single OC-3 will do even for specially-selected traffic, so they must do something different now (unless, of course, that OC-3 was just their OAMP/control network, which is entirely possible). -TD From: R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: osint@yahoogroups.com, cryptography@metzdowd.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Code name Killer Rabbit: New Sub Can Tap Undersea Cables Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:47:02 -0500 http://wcbs880.com/topstories/topstories_story_049165912.html/resources_storyPrintableView WCBS 880 | wcbs880.com Experts: New Sub Can Tap Undersea Cables * USS Jimmy Carter Will Be Based In Washington State Feb 18, 2005 4:55 pm US/Eastern The USS Jimmy Carter, set to join the nation's submarine fleet on Saturday, will have some special capabilities, intelligence experts say: It will be able to tap undersea cables and eavesdrop on the communications passing through them. The Navy does not acknowledge the $3.2 billion submarine, the third and last of the Seawolf class of attack subs, has this capability. That's going to be classified in nature, said Kevin Sykes, a Navy spokesman. You're not going to get anybody to talk to you about that. But intelligence community watchdogs have little doubt: The previous submarine that performed the mission, the USS Parche, was retired last fall. That would only happen if a new one was on the way. Like the Parche, the Carter was extensively modified from its basic design, given a $923 million hull extension that allows it to house technicians and gear to perform the cable-tapping and other secret missions, experts say. The Carter's hull, at 453 feet, is 100 feet longer than the other two subs in the Seawolf class. The submarine is basically going to have as its major function intelligence gathering, said James Bamford, author of two books on the National Security Agency. Navy public information touts some of the Carter's special abilities: In the extended hull section, the boat can provide berths for up to 50 special operations troops, like Navy SEALs. It has an ocean interface that serves as a sort of hangar bay for smaller vehicles and drones to launch and return. It has the usual complement of torpedo tubes and Tomahawk cruise missiles, and it will also serve as a platform for researching new technologies useful on submarines. The Carter, like other submarines, will also have the ability to eavesdrop on communications-what the military calls signals intelligence-passed through the airwaves, experts say. But its ability to tap undersea fiber-optic cables may be unique in the fleet. Communications worldwide are increasingly transmitted solely through fiber-optic lines, rather than through satellites and radios. The capacity of fiber optics is so much greater than other communications media or technologies, and it's also immune to the stick-up-an-attenna type of eavesdropping, said Jeffrey Richelson, an expert on intelligence technologies. To listen to fiber-optic transmissions, intelligence operatives must physically place a tap somewhere along the route. If the stations that receive and transmit the communications along the lines are on foreign soil or otherwise inaccessible, tapping the line is the only way to eavesdrop on it. The intelligence experts admit there is much that is open to speculation, such as how the information recorded at a fiber-optic tap would get to analysts at the National Security Agency for review. During the 1970s, a U.S. submarine placed a tap on an undersea cable along the Soviet Pacific coast, and subs had to return every few months to pick up the tapes. The mission was ultimately betrayed by a spy, and the recording device is now at the KGB museum in Moscow. If U.S. subs still must return every so often to collect the communications, the taps won't provide speedy warnings, particularly against imminent terrorist attacks. It does continue to be something of a puzzle as to how they get this stuff back to home base, said John Pike, a military expert at GlobalSecurity.org. Some experts suggest the taps may somehow transmit their information, using an antenna or buoy-but those modifications are easier to discover and disable than a tap attached to the cable on the ocean floor. Unless they have some new method of relaying the information, it doesn't serve
Code name Killer Rabbit: New Sub Can Tap Undersea Cables
http://wcbs880.com/topstories/topstories_story_049165912.html/resources_storyPrintableView WCBS 880 | wcbs880.com Experts: New Sub Can Tap Undersea Cables * USS Jimmy Carter Will Be Based In Washington State Feb 18, 2005 4:55 pm US/Eastern The USS Jimmy Carter, set to join the nation's submarine fleet on Saturday, will have some special capabilities, intelligence experts say: It will be able to tap undersea cables and eavesdrop on the communications passing through them. The Navy does not acknowledge the $3.2 billion submarine, the third and last of the Seawolf class of attack subs, has this capability. That's going to be classified in nature, said Kevin Sykes, a Navy spokesman. You're not going to get anybody to talk to you about that. But intelligence community watchdogs have little doubt: The previous submarine that performed the mission, the USS Parche, was retired last fall. That would only happen if a new one was on the way. Like the Parche, the Carter was extensively modified from its basic design, given a $923 million hull extension that allows it to house technicians and gear to perform the cable-tapping and other secret missions, experts say. The Carter's hull, at 453 feet, is 100 feet longer than the other two subs in the Seawolf class. The submarine is basically going to have as its major function intelligence gathering, said James Bamford, author of two books on the National Security Agency. Navy public information touts some of the Carter's special abilities: In the extended hull section, the boat can provide berths for up to 50 special operations troops, like Navy SEALs. It has an ocean interface that serves as a sort of hangar bay for smaller vehicles and drones to launch and return. It has the usual complement of torpedo tubes and Tomahawk cruise missiles, and it will also serve as a platform for researching new technologies useful on submarines. The Carter, like other submarines, will also have the ability to eavesdrop on communications-what the military calls signals intelligence-passed through the airwaves, experts say. But its ability to tap undersea fiber-optic cables may be unique in the fleet. Communications worldwide are increasingly transmitted solely through fiber-optic lines, rather than through satellites and radios. The capacity of fiber optics is so much greater than other communications media or technologies, and it's also immune to the stick-up-an-attenna type of eavesdropping, said Jeffrey Richelson, an expert on intelligence technologies. To listen to fiber-optic transmissions, intelligence operatives must physically place a tap somewhere along the route. If the stations that receive and transmit the communications along the lines are on foreign soil or otherwise inaccessible, tapping the line is the only way to eavesdrop on it. The intelligence experts admit there is much that is open to speculation, such as how the information recorded at a fiber-optic tap would get to analysts at the National Security Agency for review. During the 1970s, a U.S. submarine placed a tap on an undersea cable along the Soviet Pacific coast, and subs had to return every few months to pick up the tapes. The mission was ultimately betrayed by a spy, and the recording device is now at the KGB museum in Moscow. If U.S. subs still must return every so often to collect the communications, the taps won't provide speedy warnings, particularly against imminent terrorist attacks. It does continue to be something of a puzzle as to how they get this stuff back to home base, said John Pike, a military expert at GlobalSecurity.org. Some experts suggest the taps may somehow transmit their information, using an antenna or buoy-but those modifications are easier to discover and disable than a tap attached to the cable on the ocean floor. Unless they have some new method of relaying the information, it doesn't serve much use in terms of warning, Bamford said. He contended tapping undersea communications cables violates a number of international conventions the United States is party to. Such communications could still be useful, although the task of sorting and analyzing so many communications for ones relevant to U.S. national security interests is so daunting that only computers can do it. The nuclear-powered sub will be commissioned in a ceremony at 11 a.m. Saturday at the submarine base at New London, Conn. The ceremony marks the vessel's formal entry into the fleet. The former president, himself a submariner during his time in the Navy, will attend. After some sea trials, the ship will move to its home port in Bangor, Wash. -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and
Re: Code name Killer Rabbit: New Sub Can Tap Undersea Cables
On Feb 18, 2005, at 19:47, R.A. Hettinga wrote: It does continue to be something of a puzzle as to how they get this stuff back to home base, said John Pike, a military expert at GlobalSecurity.org. I should think that in many cases, they can simply lease a fiber in the same cable. What could be simpler?
