Fwd: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)

[Bruce Williams]

Same here.
I did my own test, but going from 6400 ISO down to 200 ISO.
I also used 2 exposure modules (1 @ +3, and 1 @ +2) and found the images to
be almost indistinguishable from each other. If anything, the noise
distribution was subtly different in it's randomisation.
As for white balance differences, that should not be an issue if you're
shooting RAW.
A RAW file is not, after all, an "image". It's simply data. That's why
white balance can be selected after the fact.
And no, I don't believe there to be any issue with darktable either. Just
noobie error on the part of f-stoppers.
Cheers,
Bruce Williams
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-- Forwarded message -
From: Bryan Leaman 
Date: Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)
To: 


I saw that video and have no idea what F-Stoppers may have done wrong in
their test, but I expect unfamiliarity with the software may be a
factor. I just tried to replicate the essense of the test using my Nikon
D3200,  50mm @ F5. Shot properly exposed at 3200 on a tripod, then at
100. After boosting the exposure 5 stops (1 exposure instance) and
selecting the same white balance, the overall luminosity looks
equivalent to me.

I also tried boosting using 2 instances, 1 at +3ev and another at +2ev.
I noticed that duplicating the instance and changing the exposure still
leaves the duplicate turned off, so maybe that's what happened.

The camera's white balance selection was very different between the two
and even after setting the boosted image's setting it still looks a
little yellow to me. Also, some areas that were darker to begin with
(dark wood in shadow) did not appear as bright after boosting 5ev.

The long & short of it is I don't think there's any issue with Darktable.

--Bryan

On 3/3/19 2:31 AM, Wiktor Nowak wrote:
> Normally You use one exposure module and push it 3EV max. They
> duplicated it and pusched it 1 stop more so maybe here something tricky
> happens. I did a test witch 5EV underexposed image on 80D and I didn't
> noticed any exposure difference when I pushed it 3EV plus 2EV in
> darktable. It could be a difference in darktable overall in a shape of
> base curve for this Nikon or anything else.
>
> Actually I don't think it's a problem at all. Do You think it is?
>
> W dniu 02.03.2019 o 11:22, Andreas Schneider pisze:
>> Hi,
>>
>> there a video where they did take and underexposed image and then pushed
the
>> exposure 4 EVs. darktable produced a darker image than the other raw
>> developers.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAb85TukSuc
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)

[Mark Feit]

On 3/2/19 5:37 AM, Bruce Williams wrote:
Yeah, but the numb nuts said "darktable could only give +3 stops of 
exposure".
Clearly, they did not know about the ability to instigate a second 
instead of a module.



As cameras continue to see better in the dark, I wonder if it would be 
worth considering bumping the upper limit on the slider to +4.  With my 
D750, +2.75 is no longer the source of amazement it once was.  :-)


--Mark


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Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)

[Patrick Shanahan]

* Moritz Mœller  [03-02-19 15:59]:
> And how are you representative as a user? What's the relevance of your
> experience in the context of what I said?
> 
> I have no problem with DT's UI but I'm a professional VFX artist and
> software engineer. My DT UX is zero representative for this reason and for
> the most obvious one: I'm just a single person. Sample size one.
> 
> Beers,
> 
> .mm
> 
> On March 2, 2019 17:03:45 Jason Polak  wrote:
> 
> > Going to have to disagree with that, and I think at least some of it is
> > what you used first. I actually tried darktable before Lightroom and
> > just by clicking around I found darktable pretty intuitive. Trying to do
> > the same in Lightroom was confusing after that.
> > 
> > Jason
> > 
> > On 2/3/19 9:19 am, Moritz Mœller wrote:
> > > I'm not surprised by the comment. DT's UI isn't intuitive.
> > > If you are a person that learns a software by using it/trial & error
> > > instead of reading the manual, your experience will be pretty unfavorable.
> > > 
> > > I haven't watched the video but from the comments here it seens it's
> > > about features, not UX. So it's still unfair of them to not RTFM and
> > > give DT a worse score thus.
> > > 
> > > .mm
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> 
> 
> 
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thanks, had several Dos Equis XXs at lunch.  

I had trouble learning Bibble but needed software for developing raw
images on linux and at that time Bibble was probably as good as what was
available.  so I learned bibble.  Corel raped bibble so I changed horses. 
darktable was quite new and similar and was an easy adaption.

so far as being intuitive, dt was an easy learn from bibble.  afa my
experience, I am what I am and said what I feel.  I is singular and only
representative of my feelings.  I speak for no one except myself.

afa you being "professional", I have been paid for work and hired to work. 
I had the same job for 40+years and was "considered" a professional.  but
the definition of professional is quite liberal and does not really define
one.

have a nice day and moor beer(s).

-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri
Registered Linux User #207535@ http://linuxcounter.net
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo   paka @ IRCnet freenode
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Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)

[Moritz Mœller]

And how are you representative as a user? What's the relevance of your 
experience in the context of what I said?


I have no problem with DT's UI but I'm a professional VFX artist and 
software engineer. My DT UX is zero representative for this reason and for 
the most obvious one: I'm just a single person. Sample size one.


Beers,

.mm

On March 2, 2019 17:03:45 Jason Polak  wrote:


Going to have to disagree with that, and I think at least some of it is
what you used first. I actually tried darktable before Lightroom and
just by clicking around I found darktable pretty intuitive. Trying to do
the same in Lightroom was confusing after that.

Jason

On 2/3/19 9:19 am, Moritz Mœller wrote:

I'm not surprised by the comment. DT's UI isn't intuitive.
If you are a person that learns a software by using it/trial & error
instead of reading the manual, your experience will be pretty unfavorable.

I haven't watched the video but from the comments here it seens it's
about features, not UX. So it's still unfair of them to not RTFM and
give DT a worse score thus.

.mm

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Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)

[Per Inge Oestmoen]

Patrick Shanahan wrote:


fwiw: all software has it's own ideal about what a user
expects one can seldom move from one application to another
similar w/o having to learn the new UI.  NONE is standard.


I tend to agree with this.

However, precisely because all are different good documentation is 
imperative. If documentation is available, all is well.


--
Noise Reduction is just another word for Image Destruction.

Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
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Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)

[Patrick Shanahan]

* Jason Polak  [03-02-19 11:03]:
> Going to have to disagree with that, and I think at least some of it is
> what you used first. I actually tried darktable before Lightroom and
> just by clicking around I found darktable pretty intuitive. Trying to do
> the same in Lightroom was confusing after that.
> 
> Jason
> 
> On 2/3/19 9:19 am, Moritz Mœller wrote:
> > I'm not surprised by the comment. DT's UI isn't intuitive.
> > If you are a person that learns a software by using it/trial & error
> > instead of reading the manual, your experience will be pretty unfavorable.
> > 
> > I haven't watched the video but from the comments here it seens it's
> > about features, not UX. So it's still unfair of them to not RTFM and
> > give DT a worse score thus.

meee222

I moved to darktable from bibble5 and the interface seemed quite similar.

fwiw: all software has it's own ideal about what a user expects one can
seldom move from one application to another similar w/o having to learn
the new UI.  NONE is standard.

-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri
Registered Linux User #207535@ http://linuxcounter.net
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Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)

[Jason Polak]

Going to have to disagree with that, and I think at least some of it is
what you used first. I actually tried darktable before Lightroom and
just by clicking around I found darktable pretty intuitive. Trying to do
the same in Lightroom was confusing after that.

Jason

On 2/3/19 9:19 am, Moritz Mœller wrote:
> I'm not surprised by the comment. DT's UI isn't intuitive.
> If you are a person that learns a software by using it/trial & error
> instead of reading the manual, your experience will be pretty unfavorable.
> 
> I haven't watched the video but from the comments here it seens it's
> about features, not UX. So it's still unfair of them to not RTFM and
> give DT a worse score thus.
> 
> .mm
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Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)

[Moritz Mœller]

I'm not surprised by the comment. DT's UI isn't intuitive.
If you are a person that learns a software by using it/trial & error 
instead of reading the manual, your experience will be pretty unfavorable.


I haven't watched the video but from the comments here it seens it's about 
features, not UX. So it's still unfair of them to not RTFM and give DT a 
worse score thus.


.mm

On March 2, 2019 12:59:20 KOVÁCS István  wrote:


In the comments, they do mention using another instance of exposure.
However, since they gave darktable a total of 20 minutes (and did not
ask someone who has actually used it), they may have forgotten about
base curves, which also influence brightness.
---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAb85TukSuc&lc=UgxTnhiCHnEOtEAsuRB4AaABAg
- they replied to this comment with:
Fstoppers: I have to say, using Darktable for 20 mins made me want to
completely remove it from this video. That programokay I can’t
even! -P
that being said, I was able to push it 3 stops and then add another
exposure instance and push that 1 stop so it should be the same result
as 4 stops. -P
---

Kofa


On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 at 11:51, Bernhard  wrote:


even more easy than that: right click and enter value manually ... :-)

--

regards
Bernhard

https://www.bilddateien.de

Bruce Williams schrieb am 02.03.19 um 11:37:

Yeah, but the numb nuts said "darktable could only give +3 stops of exposure".
Clearly, they did not know about the ability to instigate a second instead 
of a module.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Cheers,
Bruce Williams.

-- Forwarded message -
From: Andreas Schneider 
Date: Sat., 2 Mar. 2019, 21:23
Subject: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)
To: darktable 


Hi,

there a video where they did take and underexposed image and then pushed the
exposure 4 EVs. darktable produced a darker image than the other raw
developers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAb85TukSuc


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Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)

[KOVÁCS István]

In the comments, they do mention using another instance of exposure.
However, since they gave darktable a total of 20 minutes (and did not
ask someone who has actually used it), they may have forgotten about
base curves, which also influence brightness.
---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAb85TukSuc&lc=UgxTnhiCHnEOtEAsuRB4AaABAg
- they replied to this comment with:
Fstoppers: I have to say, using Darktable for 20 mins made me want to
completely remove it from this video. That programokay I can’t
even! -P
that being said, I was able to push it 3 stops and then add another
exposure instance and push that 1 stop so it should be the same result
as 4 stops. -P
---

Kofa


On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 at 11:51, Bernhard  wrote:
>
> even more easy than that: right click and enter value manually ... :-)
>
> --
>
> regards
> Bernhard
>
> https://www.bilddateien.de
>
> Bruce Williams schrieb am 02.03.19 um 11:37:
>
> Yeah, but the numb nuts said "darktable could only give +3 stops of exposure".
> Clearly, they did not know about the ability to instigate a second instead of 
> a module.
> I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
>
> Cheers,
> Bruce Williams.
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Andreas Schneider 
> Date: Sat., 2 Mar. 2019, 21:23
> Subject: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)
> To: darktable 
>
>
> Hi,
>
> there a video where they did take and underexposed image and then pushed the
> exposure 4 EVs. darktable produced a darker image than the other raw
> developers.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAb85TukSuc
>
>
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> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
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>
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Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)

[Bernhard]

even more easy than that: right click and enter value manually ... :-)

--

regards
Bernhard

https://www.bilddateien.de

Bruce Williams schrieb am 02.03.19 um 11:37:
Yeah, but the numb nuts said "darktable could only give +3 stops of 
exposure".
Clearly, they did not know about the ability to instigate a second 
instead of a module.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Cheers,
Bruce Williams.

-- Forwarded message -
From: *Andreas Schneider* mailto:a...@cryptomilk.org>>
Date: Sat., 2 Mar. 2019, 21:23
Subject: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)
To: darktable >



Hi,

there a video where they did take and underexposed image and then 
pushed the

exposure 4 EVs. darktable produced a darker image than the other raw
developers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAb85TukSuc


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Fwd: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)

[Bruce Williams]

Yeah, but the numb nuts said "darktable could only give +3 stops of
exposure".
Clearly, they did not know about the ability to instigate a second instead
of a module.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Cheers,
Bruce Williams.

-- Forwarded message -
From: Andreas Schneider 
Date: Sat., 2 Mar. 2019, 21:23
Subject: [darktable-dev] Pushing ISO (ISO invarience)
To: darktable 


Hi,

there a video where they did take and underexposed image and then pushed
the
exposure 4 EVs. darktable produced a darker image than the other raw
developers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAb85TukSuc


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