Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Germano Massullo]

Il 25/12/20 23:58, Terry Pinfold ha scritto:
> Hi Germano, [...]

Thank you Terry for your message. I will try to make practice with
suggestions you gave me.
Have a nice day

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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Germano Massullo]

I opened feature request
[feature] default `base curve->preserve colors->luminance` to `none`
https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/issues/7500
+
https://www.mail-archive.com/darktable-dev@lists.darktable.org/msg05963.html

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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Timur Irikovich Davletshin]

On Fri, 2020-12-25 at 22:50 +0100, Germano Massullo wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> W-O-W Timur thank you so much, you solved 90% of my problems,
> switching from "luminance" to "none" I got almost all colours I
> need. I wonder why "luminance" is the default setting instead of
> "none"!
> 
> 

Glad it helped. I do believe it worth changing defaults to none but it
looks like very few care. Try opening bug report again.

Merry Christmas and best wishes for the next year!


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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Willy Williams]

If you're going to do a serious test, you might want to consider using a 
standard ColorChecker card (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ColorChecker) 
to ensure that the colors you perceive are close to a known industry 
standard.


Willy

--

 "You don't take a picture.  You ask quietly and humbly to borrow it."

 - Unknown

--

On 12/25/20 5:58 PM, Terry Pinfold wrote:

Hi Germano,
      thanks for your considered replies. I concede your point when 
you said "because for example I may want to just adjust the exposure 
and few other things, by using the colours already generated by the 
camera".


I decided to do a test. I found an image of a kangaroo (I am 
Australian) where I had both a JPG and NEF file. I opened the JPG in 
DT and did a snapshot of the image to use as a comparison for working 
the RAW file. I then opened the RAW file and activated the snapshot 
from the JPG. The RAW file was a little darker and duller. I easily 
corrected this using the exposure module and the white and black 
relative exposure sliders in filmic. The image looked nearly identical 
to the jpg except for one patch of fur on the kangaroo which didn't 
match perfectly in color. Initially I was not sure how I could fix 
this because when I tried whitebalance the global shift of colours 
just made it worse. Then I went to the color zones module and used the 
eyedropper to identify the color of the patch of fur that was giving 
me problems. In the saturation tab I started raising the saturation of 
this region and the final result was as identical as I would ever hope 
to achieve.  So my conclusion is that yes I can achieve an all but 
identical image from a RAW nef file and a JPG image rapidly in DT. I 
feel the issue is that Nikon and other camera manufacturers apply 
unique corrections to the JPG based upon many factors including what 
picture style you have selected in the camera. For instance, if 
landscape is selected in the camera then Nikon pumps the blues and 
greens up a bit. I actually have made a preset in color zones module 
to enhance greens in landscapes. I also have another to reduce 
excessive red in skin tones. I guess these are me making my own 
picture styles in DT.


Take home message is try using the snapshot feature of darktable as a 
reference for setting the RAW file if you want to match the camera 
JPG. I admit when I edit images I do not care about the camera JPG, 
but feel one of the biggest challenges when first learning to edit 
your own RAW files is to get a result as good as the camera's JPG, let 
alone better. After all Canon, Nikon, Olympus and all the other 
manufacturers have invested a lot of resources and expertise into 
coming up with the 'secret recipes' to produce these JPGs in an 
attempt to make their cameras the best on the market.





On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 at 08:50, Germano Massullo 
mailto:germano.massu...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I am replying hereunder to most of the answers I got. Thank you
everybody

David Vincent-Jones wrote:


Your camera JPG is produced using Nikon's secret and special
'sauce' and achieving an identical result would be difficult.
People who shoot RAW files generally believe that they can hand
craft a result that is at least similar but probably better than
that which the camera manufacturer can offer.



Yes, unfortunately I think they give their special sauce only to
big software companies, like "you know who" company. Indeed I
tried to produce a JPEG (from NEF) from THAT software and I got an
image that is ~identical to the camera JPEG.

Martin Straeten wrote:

You might use this:
https://pixls.us/articles/profiling-a-camera-with-darktable-chart/


Yes, luckily I have a X-Rite Colour Checker, I have to use it more
often

Terry Pinfold wrote:

Not really answering the direct question here, but making an
observation that many others have said before me. If you want
your image to look like the cameras JPG then use the JPG. To me
the whole idea of using RAW files and processing in DT is to
hand-craft my own image how I as the photographer/artist want to
render the scene.


I don't agree because for example I may want to just adjust the
exposure and few other things, by using the colours already
generated by the camera


I would also comment that Filmic V4 is giving me a very nice
starting point for most of my images compared to the base curve
options or Filmic V3.


Nice suggestion, I am currently studying it with guide
https://www.mauriziopaglia.it/filmic-faq/

Archie Macintosh wrote:

place Input Color Profile early in the pipe, as Aurélian Pierre does with 
the jpeg he's
editing in this video at 14:22:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzACn3l49HM


Thank you, I bookmarked the video

Kees Stravers wrote:

What version of Darktable are you using?
In my experience, Darktable 2.6.x gets much closer to the Nikon
 

Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Terry Pinfold]

Hi Germano,
  thanks for your considered replies. I concede your point when you
said "because for example I may want to just adjust the exposure and few
other things, by using the colours already generated by the camera".

I decided to do a test. I found an image of a kangaroo (I am Australian)
where I had both a JPG and NEF file. I opened the JPG in DT and did a
snapshot of the image to use as a comparison for working the RAW file. I
then opened the RAW file and activated the snapshot from the JPG. The RAW
file was a little darker and duller. I easily corrected this using the
exposure module and the white and black relative exposure sliders in
filmic. The image looked nearly identical to the jpg except for one patch
of fur on the kangaroo which didn't match perfectly in color. Initially I
was not sure how I could fix this because when I tried whitebalance the
global shift of colours just made it worse. Then I went to the color zones
module and used the eyedropper to identify the color of the patch of fur
that was giving me problems. In the saturation tab I started raising the
saturation of this region and the final result was as identical as I would
ever hope to achieve.  So my conclusion is that yes I can achieve an all
but identical image from a RAW nef file and a JPG image rapidly in DT. I
feel the issue is that Nikon and other camera manufacturers apply unique
corrections to the JPG based upon many factors including what picture style
you have selected in the camera. For instance, if landscape is selected in
the camera then Nikon pumps the blues and greens up a bit. I actually have
made a preset in color zones module to enhance greens in landscapes. I also
have another to reduce excessive red in skin tones. I guess these are me
making my own picture styles in DT.

Take home message is try using the snapshot feature of darktable as a
reference for setting the RAW file if you want to match the camera JPG. I
admit when I edit images I do not care about the camera JPG, but feel one
of the biggest challenges when first learning to edit your own RAW files is
to get a result as good as the camera's JPG, let alone better. After all
Canon, Nikon, Olympus and all the other manufacturers have invested a lot
of resources and expertise into coming up with the 'secret recipes' to
produce these JPGs in an attempt to make their cameras the best on the
market.




On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 at 08:50, Germano Massullo 
wrote:

> I am replying hereunder to most of the answers I got. Thank you everybody
>
> David Vincent-Jones wrote:
>
> Your camera JPG is produced using Nikon's secret and special 'sauce' and
> achieving an identical result would be difficult. People who shoot RAW
> files generally believe that they can hand craft a result that is at least
> similar but probably better than that which the camera manufacturer can
> offer.
>
>
> Yes, unfortunately I think they give their special sauce only to big
> software companies, like "you know who" company. Indeed I tried to produce
> a JPEG (from NEF) from THAT software and I got an image that is ~identical
> to the camera JPEG.
>
> Martin Straeten wrote:
>
> You might use this:
> https://pixls.us/articles/profiling-a-camera-with-darktable-chart/
>
>
> Yes, luckily I have a X-Rite Colour Checker, I have to use it more often
>
> Terry Pinfold wrote:
>
> Not really answering the direct question here, but making an observation
> that many others have said before me. If you want your image to look like
> the cameras JPG then use the JPG. To me the whole idea of using RAW files
> and processing in DT is to hand-craft my own image how I as the
> photographer/artist want to render the scene.
>
>
> I don't agree because for example I may want to just adjust the exposure
> and few other things, by using the colours already generated by the camera
>
> I would also comment that Filmic V4 is giving me a very nice starting
> point for most of my images compared to the base curve options or Filmic
> V3.
>
>
> Nice suggestion, I am currently studying it with guide
> https://www.mauriziopaglia.it/filmic-faq/
>
> Archie Macintosh wrote:
>
> place Input Color Profile early in the pipe, as Aurélian Pierre does with the 
> jpeg he's
> editing in this video at 14:22:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzACn3l49HM
>
>
> Thank you, I bookmarked the video
>
> Kees Stravers wrote:
>
> What version of Darktable are you using?
> In my experience, Darktable 2.6.x gets much closer to the Nikon colors in
> its defaults than 3.x does.
>
>
> 3.2.1
>
> Timur Irikovich Davletshin wrote:
>
> You're not gonna get precise color reproduction even if your camera has
> full support in dt (or you made custom profiling). Default basecurve
> module behavior has been changed since 3.0 release. Try changing color
> reproduction to 'none' instead of 'luminance'. This is the only way
> profiles work for me. Why it has been changed is another question. We
> discussed it already couple times. I looks like no one cares ab

Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Germano Massullo]

I am replying hereunder to most of the answers I got. Thank you everybody

David Vincent-Jones wrote:
>
> Your camera JPG is produced using Nikon's secret and special 'sauce'
> and achieving an identical result would be difficult. People who shoot
> RAW files generally believe that they can hand craft a result that is
> at least similar but probably better than that which the camera
> manufacturer can offer.
>

Yes, unfortunately I think they give their special sauce only to big
software companies, like "you know who" company. Indeed I tried to
produce a JPEG (from NEF) from THAT software and I got an image that is
~identical to the camera JPEG.

Martin Straeten wrote:
> You might use
> this: https://pixls.us/articles/profiling-a-camera-with-darktable-chart/
> 

Yes, luckily I have a X-Rite Colour Checker, I have to use it more often

Terry Pinfold wrote:
> Not really answering the direct question here, but making an
> observation that many others have said before me. If you want your
> image to look like the cameras JPG then use the JPG. To me the whole
> idea of using RAW files and processing in DT is to hand-craft my own
> image how I as the photographer/artist want to render the scene.

I don't agree because for example I may want to just adjust the exposure
and few other things, by using the colours already generated by the camera

> I would also comment that Filmic V4 is giving me a very nice starting
> point for most of my images compared to the base curve options or
> Filmic V3. 

Nice suggestion, I am currently studying it with guide
https://www.mauriziopaglia.it/filmic-faq/

Archie Macintosh wrote:
> place Input Color Profile early in the pipe, as Aurélian Pierre does with the 
> jpeg he's
> editing in this video at 14:22:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzACn3l49HM

Thank you, I bookmarked the video

Kees Stravers wrote:
> What version of Darktable are you using?
> In my experience, Darktable 2.6.x gets much closer to the Nikon colors
> in its defaults than 3.x does.

3.2.1

Timur Irikovich Davletshin wrote:
> You're not gonna get precise color reproduction even if your camera has
> full support in dt (or you made custom profiling). Default basecurve
> module behavior has been changed since 3.0 release. Try changing color
> reproduction to 'none' instead of 'luminance'. This is the only way
> profiles work for me. Why it has been changed is another question. We
> discussed it already couple times. I looks like no one cares about
> matching in camera JPEGs but for some unknown reason dt still defaults
> to base curve module... which is profiled against in camera JPEGs!
> :)
> Timur.

W-O-W Timur thank you so much, you solved 90% of my problems, switching
from "luminance" to "none" I got almost all colours I need. I wonder why
"luminance" is the default setting instead of "none"!

Terry Pinfold wrote:
> Recently I was teaching a group of students to use DT 3.0. We opened
> the same image using base curve to get the initial starting point, we
> then opened the image with no base curve  and just did our own tone
> curve, and finally we used Filmic V4 and adjusted the white and black
> exposure sliders. Every student thought Filmic gave the best result
> and was easy to use at this basic level. For me Filmic V4 is giving
> pleasing results with colour saturation where I found V3 too subdued.

Yes, as I said in previous part of this message, Filmic V4 is really a
thing to study / practice with


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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Terry Pinfold]

Recently I was teaching a group of students to use DT 3.0. We opened the
same image using base curve to get the initial starting point, we then
opened the image with no base curve  and just did our own tone curve, and
finally we used Filmic V4 and adjusted the white and black exposure
sliders. Every student thought Filmic gave the best result and was easy to
use at this basic level. For me Filmic V4 is giving pleasing results with
colour saturation where I found V3 too subdued.

On Sun, 8 Nov 2020 at 06:04, Timur Irikovich Davletshin <
timur.davlets...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, Germano!
>
> You're not gonna get precise color reproduction even if your camera has
> full support in dt (or you made custom profiling). Default basecurve
> module behavior has been changed since 3.0 release. Try changing color
> reproduction to 'none' instead of 'luminance'. This is the only way
> profiles work for me. Why it has been changed is another question. We
> discussed it already couple times. I looks like no one cares about
> matching in camera JPEGs but for some unknown reason dt still defaults
> to base curve module... which is profiled against in camera JPEGs!
>
> :)
>
> Timur.
>
> On Wed, 2020-11-04 at 23:35 +0100, Germano Massullo wrote:
> > Good day, I have shoot the following photo in JPEG+RAW and I would
> > need your help in reproducing the colours of the camera JPEG in
> > dartkable RAW editing.
> > This is a Nikon Z6 JPEG
> > https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/original_z6_JPG.JPG
> > here instead the result of my elaboration of the RAW file
> > https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/darktable_edited_raw.jpg
> > This is the XMP file
> > https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/DSC_1075_05.NEF.xmp
> > I cannot manage to achieve the same colours, playing with the colour
> > balance did not help because it turned too much "reddish" the whole
> > picture. Any idea?
> > Thank you for your time
> >
> > _
> > ___ darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
> > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>

--


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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Timur Irikovich Davletshin]

Hi, Germano!

You're not gonna get precise color reproduction even if your camera has
full support in dt (or you made custom profiling). Default basecurve
module behavior has been changed since 3.0 release. Try changing color
reproduction to 'none' instead of 'luminance'. This is the only way
profiles work for me. Why it has been changed is another question. We
discussed it already couple times. I looks like no one cares about
matching in camera JPEGs but for some unknown reason dt still defaults
to base curve module... which is profiled against in camera JPEGs!

:)

Timur.

On Wed, 2020-11-04 at 23:35 +0100, Germano Massullo wrote:
> Good day, I have shoot the following photo in JPEG+RAW and I would
> need your help in reproducing the colours of the camera JPEG in
> dartkable RAW editing.
> This is a Nikon Z6 JPEG 
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/original_z6_JPG.JPG
> here instead the result of my elaboration of the RAW file  
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/darktable_edited_raw.jpg
> This is the XMP file   
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/DSC_1075_05.NEF.xmp
> I cannot manage to achieve the same colours, playing with the colour
> balance did not help because it turned too much "reddish" the whole
> picture. Any idea?
> Thank you for your time
> 
> _
> ___ darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to 
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org 


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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Kees Stravers]

What version of Darktable are you using?

In my experience, Darktable 2.6.x gets much closer to the Nikon colors 
in its defaults than 3.x does.


Kees


Germano Massullo schreef op 2020-11-04 23:35:

Good day, I have shoot the following photo in JPEG+RAW and I would
need your help in reproducing the colours of the camera JPEG in
dartkable RAW editing.
This is a Nikon Z6 JPEG
https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/original_z6_JPG.JPG

here instead the result of my elaboration of the RAW file
https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/darktable_edited_raw.jpg


This is the XMP file
https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/DSC_1075_05.NEF.xmp

I cannot manage to achieve the same colours, playing with the colour
balance did not help because it turned too much "reddish" the whole
picture. Any idea?

Thank you for your time

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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Bernhard]

Remco Viëtor schrieb am 06.11.20 um 07:01:

he was advised that the easiest way would be to use Nikon's
software. Some versions of which have been noted for modifying the NEFs,
making them unreadable for many other programs, among which dt.

That second sentence was exactly what I was referring to before.

It's essential to keep the raw files of whatever camera as is (and as 
the samples are stored in raw.pixls.us) to make sure they may be read by 
any raw editor in future.
As Remco said edits within those raw files bring in risks you don't want 
to have in a long-time archive.


--

regards
Bernhard

https://www.bilddateien.de


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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Remco Viëtor]

On vendredi 6 novembre 2020 05:29:37 CET David Vincent-Jones wrote:
> This conversation is taking place on a darktable forum ... I am not sure
> why options for corrupting a RAW file with other pieces of software is
> really relevant.

Well, OP was asking about getting the same output from his raw as the camera 
produces, he was advised that the easiest way would be to use Nikon's 
software. Some versions of which have been noted for modifying the NEFs, 
making them unreadable for many other programs, among which dt.

Are you saying that we should not suggest alternate solutions (with mention of 
potential pitfalls) because "This conversation is taking place on a darktable 
forum" ?

Remco



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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[David Vincent-Jones]

This conversation is taking place on a darktable forum ... I am not sure 
why options for corrupting a RAW file with other pieces of software is 
really relevant.


On 2020-11-05 7:09 p.m., ternaryd wrote:

On Fri, 6 Nov 2020 03:06:23 +0100
Bernhard  wrote:


David Vincent-Jones schrieb am 05.11.20 um

22:57:

Darktable is a non-destructive image
editor and the user is totally unable to
write or change the RAW file in any way.

that's right.
But: Nikon software (ViewNX) writes into the
RAW file instead of creating a xmp file.
And that crap from Adobe does this also in
case of a DNG file.

Darktable does not forbid the user to deploy
exif-tool or exiv2; it just doesn't recommend
it. Anyway, darktable would be the wrong tool
for doing so.

Would ViewNX also modify a raw from, say,
Canon? The problem is the potentially unknown
manufacturer entries in Exif, which may yield
a broken raw file. But of course, Nikon is able
to change their own files without risks (unless
you use an old version of ViewNX on a new file).

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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[ternaryd]

On Fri, 6 Nov 2020 03:06:23 +0100
Bernhard  wrote:

>> David Vincent-Jones schrieb am 05.11.20 um
22:57:
>> Darktable is a non-destructive image
>> editor and the user is totally unable to
>> write or change the RAW file in any way.

> that's right.
> But: Nikon software (ViewNX) writes into the
> RAW file instead of creating a xmp file.
> And that crap from Adobe does this also in
> case of a DNG file.

Darktable does not forbid the user to deploy
exif-tool or exiv2; it just doesn't recommend
it. Anyway, darktable would be the wrong tool
for doing so.

Would ViewNX also modify a raw from, say,
Canon? The problem is the potentially unknown
manufacturer entries in Exif, which may yield
a broken raw file. But of course, Nikon is able
to change their own files without risks (unless
you use an old version of ViewNX on a new file).

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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Bernhard]

David Vincent-Jones schrieb am 05.11.20 um 22:57:
Darktable is a non-destructive image editor and the user is totally 
unable to write or change the RAW file in any way.

that's right.
But: Nikon software (ViewNX) writes into the RAW file instead of 
creating a xmp file.

And that crap from Adobe does this also in case of a DNG file.

--

regards
Bernhard

https://www.bilddateien.de


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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Terry Pinfold]

On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 17:45, Martin Straeten 
wrote:

> You might use this:
> https://pixls.us/articles/profiling-a-camera-with-darktable-chart/
> But this approach isn’t useful when using filmic, since color lookup table
> and tonecurve are mandatory.
> Best solution to get nikon colors is using the software provided by nikon
> ;)
>
> Am 04.11.2020 um 23:36 schrieb Germano Massullo <
> germano.massu...@gmail.com>:
>
>  Good day, I have shoot the following photo in JPEG+RAW and I would need
> your help in reproducing the colours of the camera JPEG in dartkable RAW
> editing.
>
> This is a Nikon Z6 JPEG
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/original_z6_JPG.JPG
>
> here instead the result of my elaboration of the RAW file
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/darktable_edited_raw.jpg
>
> This is the XMP file
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/DSC_1075_05.NEF.xmp
>
> I cannot manage to achieve the same colours, playing with the colour
> balance did not help because it turned too much "reddish" the whole
> picture. Any idea?
>
> Thank you for your time
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>


-- 
Not really answering the direct question here, but making an observation
that many others have said before me. If you want your image to look like
the cameras JPG then use the JPG. To me the whole idea of using RAW files
and processing in DT is to hand-craft my own image how I as the
photographer/artist want to render the scene. When you first start out
processing RAW images as an inexperienced user you will struggle to produce
an end product as good as the camera's JPG. But then with  experience you
will end up cringing at the JPG that comes out of the camera.

To partly address the question originally asked, I would suggest creating
some presets or styles in DT to apply to images quickly to give a starting
point that pleases you. I would also comment that Filmic V4 is giving me a
very nice starting point for most of my images compared to the base curve
options or Filmic V3.


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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[David Vincent-Jones]

Darktable is a non-destructive image editor and the user is totally 
unable to write or change the RAW file in any way.


On 2020-11-05 1:49 a.m., Remco Viëtor wrote:

On jeudi 5 novembre 2020 09:15:37 CET Archie Macintosh wrote:

On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 06:44, Martin Straeten 
wrote: 


Best solution to get nikon colors is using the software provided by nikon

Indeed. Isn’t that the digital equivalent of choosing to use
Kodachrome  — the sort of choice we all made in the film days when
there was no equivalent to what we now call ‘RAW’.

But always work on a *copy* of the original raw file.
We've seen a few problems with esp. nikon raw files (.NEF) that were
attributed to Nikon's software modifying the NEF files in a way that made them
unreadable for most other software. Not a pleasant surprise if it hits you and
you do not have a backup. And this can happen with any software that writes to
raw files!


Don’t be satisfied with a look you don’t like even after hours of
work, just because of some spurious ‘moral’ argument that ‘RAW is
best’.

If you like the look of the camera jpegs, why even bother with raw
development? If it's to reproduce the in-camera look, you're wasting your
time...

Raw development is good if you do *not* like the look your camera produces, or
when you have images the camera software can't handle (images with high
dynamic range come to mind, or images with a lot of "led blue", like some
theatre settings...). But raw development has to be learned...

Remco





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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Archie Macintosh]

On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 09:49, Remco Viëtor  wrote:

> Raw development is good if you do *not* like the look your camera produces, or
> when you have images the camera software can't handle (images with high
> dynamic range come to mind, or images with a lot of "led blue", like some
> theatre settings...). But raw development has to be learned...

Yes, indeed: you should work in the way that gets you the results you
want so as to achieve your purposes in taking the photographs. And if
you can achieve those purposes successfully 'in camera' and with the
camera's jpegs, that's great. (This is quite common among wedding
photographers, who need to keep the costly overhead of post-processing
time to a minimum.) But, as you say, if you can't get, or don't like,
the results from your camera even after a bit of minimal processing,
and the picture matters enough, then edit the RAW file. (Of course, if
you enjoy processing RAWs simply because you enjoy post-processing,
then these considerations don't apply.)

I always shoot RAW + JPG, to give myself the flexibility to choose if
necessary. But, for my purposes, I rarely need to edit RAW files: a
bit of tweaking of the jpegs in dt is enough when necessary. And dt is
very useful for this, as long as you remember to place Input Color
Profile early in the pipe, as Aurélian Pierre does with the jpeg he's
editing in this video at 14:22:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzACn3l49HM
(This is easy to do now we can change the module order in dt, and
apply that module order to a set of pictures using a module order
preset.)

So, yes, do what works for you.

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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Remco Viëtor]

On jeudi 5 novembre 2020 09:15:37 CET Archie Macintosh wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 06:44, Martin Straeten 
> wrote: 
> 
> > Best solution to get nikon colors is using the software provided by nikon
> 
> Indeed. Isn’t that the digital equivalent of choosing to use
> Kodachrome  — the sort of choice we all made in the film days when
> there was no equivalent to what we now call ‘RAW’.

But always work on a *copy* of the original raw file. 
We've seen a few problems with esp. nikon raw files (.NEF) that were 
attributed to Nikon's software modifying the NEF files in a way that made them 
unreadable for most other software. Not a pleasant surprise if it hits you and 
you do not have a backup. And this can happen with any software that writes to 
raw files!

>Don’t be satisfied with a look you don’t like even after hours of
>work, just because of some spurious ‘moral’ argument that ‘RAW is
>best’.
If you like the look of the camera jpegs, why even bother with raw 
development? If it's to reproduce the in-camera look, you're wasting your 
time...

Raw development is good if you do *not* like the look your camera produces, or 
when you have images the camera software can't handle (images with high 
dynamic range come to mind, or images with a lot of "led blue", like some 
theatre settings...). But raw development has to be learned...

Remco





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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Archie Macintosh]

On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 06:44, Martin Straeten  wrote:

>
> Best solution to get nikon colors is using the software provided by nikon

Indeed. Isn’t that the digital equivalent of choosing to use
Kodachrome  — the sort of choice we all made in the film days when
there was no equivalent to what we now call ‘RAW’.

In those days, we chose film from the company whose chemists had
concocted a look we liked. So what’s wrong now with choosing a camera
whose engineers have concocted a look you like?

Don’t be satisfied with a look you don’t like even after hours of
work, just because of some spurious ‘moral’ argument that ‘RAW is
best’.

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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Martin Straeten]

You might use this: 
https://pixls.us/articles/profiling-a-camera-with-darktable-chart/
But this approach isn’t useful when using filmic, since color lookup table and 
tonecurve are mandatory.
Best solution to get nikon colors is using the software provided by nikon ;)

> Am 04.11.2020 um 23:36 schrieb Germano Massullo :
> 
>  Good day, I have shoot the following photo in JPEG+RAW and I would need 
> your help in reproducing the colours of the camera JPEG in dartkable RAW 
> editing.
> This is a Nikon Z6 JPEG 
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/original_z6_JPG.JPG
> here instead the result of my elaboration of the RAW file 
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/darktable_edited_raw.jpg
> This is the XMP file 
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/DSC_1075_05.NEF.xmp
> I cannot manage to achieve the same colours, playing with the colour balance 
> did not help because it turned too much "reddish" the whole picture. Any idea?
> Thank you for your time
> 
>  
> darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to 
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org 


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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[David Vincent-Jones]

Your camera JPG is produced using Nikon's secret and special 'sauce' and 
achieving an identical result would be difficult. People who shoot RAW 
files generally believe that they can hand craft a result that is at 
least similar but probably better than that which the camera 
manufacturer can offer. We all have differing opinions regarding how our 
images should look and the Nikon look does not appeal to all tastes. 
Learning RAW processing in darktable is complex, it takes time and 
effort but the results can be far more rewarding than that which the 
camera manufacturer can offer.


Bruce Williams has produced a fine and extensive set of on-line videos 
explaining various darktable elements. Check them out.


David

On 2020-11-04 2:35 p.m., Germano Massullo wrote:

Good day, I have shoot the following photo in JPEG+RAW and I would need
your help in reproducing the colours of the camera JPEG in dartkable RAW
editing.

This is a Nikon Z6 JPEG
https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/original_z6_JPG.JPG

here instead the result of my elaboration of the RAW file
https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/darktable_edited_raw.jpg

This is the XMP file
https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/DSC_1075_05.NEF.xmp

I cannot manage to achieve the same colours, playing with the colour
balance did not help because it turned too much "reddish" the whole
picture. Any idea?

Thank you for your time



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Re: [darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Patrick Shanahan]

* Germano Massullo  [11-04-20 17:37]:
> Good day, I have shoot the following photo in JPEG+RAW and I would need
> your help in reproducing the colours of the camera JPEG in dartkable RAW
> editing.
> 
> This is a Nikon Z6 JPEG
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/original_z6_JPG.JPG
> 
> here instead the result of my elaboration of the RAW file
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/darktable_edited_raw.jpg
> 
> This is the XMP file
> https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/DSC_1075_05.NEF.xmp
> 
> I cannot manage to achieve the same colours, playing with the colour
> balance did not help because it turned too much "reddish" the whole
> picture. Any idea?

you might try here:
  https://discuss.pixls.us/search?q=playraw

but you must remember that the jpg was produced by nikon processes which
are unknown software wise to developers.

and you neglected to provide the raw image for anyone to try ...

  
-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo   paka @ IRCnet freenode

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[darktable-user] Getting machine JPG colours in RAW editing

[Germano Massullo]

Good day, I have shoot the following photo in JPEG+RAW and I would need
your help in reproducing the colours of the camera JPEG in dartkable RAW
editing.

This is a Nikon Z6 JPEG
https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/original_z6_JPG.JPG

here instead the result of my elaboration of the RAW file
https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/darktable_edited_raw.jpg

This is the XMP file
https://germano.fedorapeople.org/canc/pantheon/DSC_1075_05.NEF.xmp

I cannot manage to achieve the same colours, playing with the colour
balance did not help because it turned too much "reddish" the whole
picture. Any idea?

Thank you for your time



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