Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Bruce Williams]

Thanks Jean-Luc.
I was hoping that I didn't fall into that category, and no, no offence was
felt on my end. 
Thank you also for the kind words regarding my videos.
Cheers,
Bruce Williams.

On Sat., 27 Oct. 2018, 04:41 Jean-Luc CECCOLI, 
wrote:

> > Message du 25/10/18 21:19
> > De : "Bruce Williams"
> > A : "Jean-Luc CECCOLI"
> > Copie à : "darktable-user"
> > Objet : Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the
> videos, but...
> >
> >
> "And many youtubers seem fond of earing them speak and bla-bla-bla for
> hours before they speak about the real subject for only a couple of
> minutes."
>
> >
> This is something I try really hard NOT to do.
> If anyone thinks I'm guilty of this, please call me on it, because when I
> watch other people's videos, it is my single biggest annoyance also.
> >
> Cheers,
> > Bruce Williams.
>
> Well, I don't understand why could think this was adressed to you
> I watched one or two of your videos, of course, and though I must listen
> many times to understand, as english is not my native language, I could not
> notice anything negative. Rather professional and worth watching at,
> despites the language barrier.
> So, no, you don't belong to those who bla-bla-bla... and sorry if your
> felt offended, you were absolutely not refered to.
>
> Regards,
>
> J.-Luc
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>


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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Jean-Luc CECCOLI]

> Message du 25/10/18 21:19
> De : "Bruce Williams" 
> A : "Jean-Luc CECCOLI" 
> Copie à : "darktable-user" 
> Objet : Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, 
> but...
> 
>
"And many youtubers seem fond of earing them speak and bla-bla-bla for hours 
before they speak about the real subject for only a couple of minutes."

>
This is something I try really hard NOT to do.
If anyone thinks I'm guilty of this, please call me on it, because when I watch 
other people's videos, it is my single biggest annoyance also.
>
Cheers,
> Bruce Williams.

Well, I don't understand why could think this was adressed to you
I watched one or two of your videos, of course, and though I must listen many 
times to understand, as english is not my native language, I could not notice 
anything negative. Rather professional and worth watching at, despites the 
language barrier.
So, no, you don't belong to those who bla-bla-bla... and sorry if your felt 
offended, you were absolutely not refered to.

Regards,

J.-Luc

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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Bruce Williams]

"And many youtubers seem fond of earing them speak and bla-bla-bla for
hours before they speak about the real subject for only a couple of
minutes."


This is something I try really hard NOT to do.
If anyone thinks I'm guilty of this, please call me on it, because when I
watch other people's videos, it is my single biggest annoyance also.
Cheers,
Bruce Williams.

>
>


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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Jean-Luc CECCOLI]

> Message du 25/10/18 01:07
> De : "I. Ivanov" 
> A : darktable-user@lists.darktable.org
> Copie à : 
> Objet : Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, 
> but...
> 
> 
.../...
> >
> What I would like to see is the DT manual to have some sort of 
> capability to be edited by users. Like a page feedback or wiki based 
> with approval process. This way users can collaborate and contribute to 
> the manual. They may not know the complete program but they may be very 
> good in a particular area or module. Incorporating very short videos 
> would be good like 30s - 1 min or so - just to demo some very specific 
> areas. Besides - the videos don't need to auto play. Just a link to it 
> is good.
+1
> 
> Drawback of the you tube videos - they are scattered between many people 
> so each time we search for them. While they are good as a reference they 
> are not organized much. On the other hand - the manual is organized and 
> search-able (but has no links to videos)
> 
> Also - as good as youtube videos are - some are quite long - 15 min and 
> above. They are good as a tutorial - comprehensive one but not as a 
> reference.
And many youtubers seem fond of earing them speak and bla-bla-bla for hours 
before they speak about the real subject for only a couple of minutes.
> 
> The manual does not need to be static. It can constantly evolve
+1

J.-Luc

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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Bruce Williams]

Thanks for that. I try! 

Cheers,
Bruce Williams.

On Thu., 25 Oct. 2018, 17:10 Matej Martinovic, 
wrote:

> Hey Bruce,
>
> thank you for your videos. I really appreciate the great audio quality.
>
> BR
> Matej
>
>  On Mi, 24 Okt 2018 01:47:44 +0200 Bruce Williams 
> wrote 
>
>  > Ricardo,
>  > Here's the link again... save you having to go look for it. :)
>  >
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlYWvzmJQTrRq7JrYdD7k3-8-v-uHnhK_
>  > Cheers,
>  > Bruce Williams
>  > --
>  > Mobile:  +61 41 250 6349
>  >
>  > audio2u.com
>  > brucewilliamsphotography.com
>  > shuttersincpodcast.com
>  > sinelanguagepodcast.com
>  >
>  > e-mail | Twitter | LinkedIn | Facebook | Soundcloud | Quora
>  > --
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 10:36 AM Ricardo Kozmate.Net <
> rica...@kozmate.net> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  >
> 
> darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>  > Em 23/10/18 22:29, Ricardo Kozmate.Net escreveu:
>  >  > [...]
>  >
>  >  PS:
>  >  I note that I subscribed and I hope to take a look at the set of
> videos
>  >  someone annouced just a few posts ago :-)
>  >
>  >  Yes, hoping more for ideas than lists of buttons to push.
>  >
> 
>  >  darktable user mailing list
>  >  to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>  >
>  >
>
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>


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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Matej Martinovic]

Hey Bruce, 

thank you for your videos. I really appreciate the great audio quality.  

BR
Matej

 On Mi, 24 Okt 2018 01:47:44 +0200 Bruce Williams  
wrote 

 > Ricardo,
 > Here's the link again... save you having to go look for it. :)
 > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlYWvzmJQTrRq7JrYdD7k3-8-v-uHnhK_
 > Cheers,
 > Bruce Williams
 > --
 > Mobile:  +61 41 250 6349
 > 
 > audio2u.com
 > brucewilliamsphotography.com
 > shuttersincpodcast.com
 > sinelanguagepodcast.com
 > 
 > e-mail | Twitter | LinkedIn | Facebook | Soundcloud | Quora
 > --
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 10:36 AM Ricardo Kozmate.Net  
 > wrote:
 > 
 > 
 >  
 > darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to 
 > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org 
 > Em 23/10/18 22:29, Ricardo Kozmate.Net escreveu:
 >  > [...]
 >  
 >  PS:
 >  I note that I subscribed and I hope to take a look at the set of videos 
 >  someone annouced just a few posts ago :-)
 >  
 >  Yes, hoping more for ideas than lists of buttons to push.
 >  
 >  darktable user mailing list
 >  to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
 >  
 > 


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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Jason Polak]

> What I would like to see is the DT manual to have some sort of
> capability to be edited by users. Like a page feedback or wiki based
> with approval process. This way users can collaborate and contribute to
> the manual. 
This is a cool idea and I would contribute to it. Although, I think
there is a difference between a user's guide and a manual, as the former
might be more geared towards creative uses of the modules beyond their
basic technical description. Perhaps a new "user's guide" wiki could be
created in this regard?

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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[I. Ivanov]

Don't get me wrong: I *sincerely appreciate* the effort put into
producing tutorial videos.  And I *admire* the required enthusiasm and
discipline.

Video makers are heroes!

Completely agree.


However, I think that the required effort stands in no justifiable
relation to the benefit.  And I'm sorry to say that.  Here's why:

Software evolves.  And while it's already difficult to keep text based
documentation in sync with changes in software, this is exceptionally
difficult for videos.  In the best case it's only menus moving to
other places, in the worst case a concept is modelled completely
different in a new software version.

Very valid point


Text can be searched.  And thus can be found by your favourite search
engine.  There is no full text seach for videos (and I don't know
about a usable search function for audio), so unless the video is
heavily annotated with metadata and a transcript (more work!) it will
be quite painful to find the section in the lengthy video that covers
what you're looking for.  Or to find the one among a collection of
many short tutorials that you're looking for.
Indeed - text is better for search and absorb easy. The drawback is that 
some times what is explained in a text is difficult to be understood.


Also, you can easily skim through text.  I find it hard to do so in
video, jumping in steps of, say, 5s, is already pretty fine
granularity for a longer video, but still likely to just miss the
short information you're looking for.  And it's tedious.
This is true but it is more applicable to a lengthy videos - if a video 
is 30s to 1m it is a good reference point


Good videos need a script, a good speaker, and a clear concept.  They
need to be concise and to the point.  Missing one of these (or any
other issue, like a cough or deviation from the topic, missed-out
paragraph from the script, break in the storyline, bad audio quality,
or a mumbling speaker) cannot be edited easily afterwards.  You need
to know exactly what you're doing, before recording.

Is there a way to produce a video in a collaborative effort?  I don't
know, but I have collaborated in writing texts, different people
adding their ideas and refining the text, improving it further and
further.  I assume that you're pretty much alone when producing a
video (and I bow to those who do).

Maybe there are places where a video is just the right media to
present an idea (e.g., to show how tie one's shoes), and maybe a
textual tutorial about DT (which will, of course, contain images)
could even benefit from a video here or there.  But in general I'm
convinced that videos are not the right thing to teach software.

So, I'm happy that the DT team provides a manual, instead of putting
time into producing videos.  Again, I bow to those making videos, but
I'd rather see that time and effort being spent on improving the
manaual.  It could need a hand here or there.

What I would like to see is the DT manual to have some sort of 
capability to be edited by users. Like a page feedback or wiki based 
with approval process. This way users can collaborate and contribute to 
the manual. They may not know the complete program but they may be very 
good in a particular area or module. Incorporating very short videos 
would be good like 30s - 1 min or so - just to demo some very specific 
areas. Besides - the videos don't need to auto play. Just a link to it 
is good.


Drawback of the you tube videos - they are scattered between many people 
so each time we search for them. While they are good as a reference they 
are not organized much. On the other hand - the manual is organized and 
search-able (but has no links to videos)


Also - as good as youtube videos are - some are quite long - 15 min and 
above. They are good as a tutorial - comprehensive one but not as a 
reference.


The manual does not need to be static. It can constantly evolve

Regards,

B


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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Ben Oliver]

On 18-10-23 19:25:59, dt-l...@stefan-klinger.de wrote:

tl;dr: Videos are hard to make, antiquate fast, and are hard to search.


I agree with this. Videos are an easy way in, but having the patience to 
read a manual pays off big time in the long run. In the age of thousands 
of tutorial videos, RTFM has never been more relevant.


I do like Bruce's videos though! I generally use them as a way in to get 
ideas with what to do with images.


I find there are three steps:

- Knowing where stuff is
- Knowing what it does
- Knowing when to use it

The last one requires a bit more than just a manual for me.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Michael Kefeder]

I agree with the technical limitations of videos you mentioned, however I
am not looking to find technical info in those either. I am expecting to
see how others use the same tool I do, to achieve a goal - so more a
creative input in what can be done than an explanation what the
module/button/shortcut does. Some might use the shadows and highlights
module others the exposure fusion to get the dynamic range they want in
their image. I've even seen someone use whitebalance to achieve a
"bladerunner" style look in his images, never crossed my mind to do that.
And then of course workflow, how do others go about from import all the way
upload/print, that is hard to describe in a text but easy to follow in a
screencast. To me the creative usage is not something that quickly is out
of sync with the current version of the software. In fact I watch videos of
people using other raw processing tools to get ideas for applying them in
darktable.

I appreciate that both exist, the fine manual and the videos
br
 mike

Am Di., 23. Okt. 2018 um 19:37 Uhr schrieb :

> tl;dr: Videos are hard to make, antiquate fast, and are hard to search.
>
> Having done teaching, I've had lengthy discussions about tutorial
> videos, lecture recordings, interactive apps and stuff like that.
> Here's my personal view:
>
> Don't get me wrong: I *sincerely appreciate* the effort put into
> producing tutorial videos.  And I *admire* the required enthusiasm and
> discipline.
>
> Video makers are heroes!
>
> However, I think that the required effort stands in no justifiable
> relation to the benefit.  And I'm sorry to say that.  Here's why:
>
> Software evolves.  And while it's already difficult to keep text based
> documentation in sync with changes in software, this is exceptionally
> difficult for videos.  In the best case it's only menus moving to
> other places, in the worst case a concept is modelled completely
> different in a new software version.
>
> Text can be searched.  And thus can be found by your favourite search
> engine.  There is no full text seach for videos (and I don't know
> about a usable search function for audio), so unless the video is
> heavily annotated with metadata and a transcript (more work!) it will
> be quite painful to find the section in the lengthy video that covers
> what you're looking for.  Or to find the one among a collection of
> many short tutorials that you're looking for.
>
> Also, you can easily skim through text.  I find it hard to do so in
> video, jumping in steps of, say, 5s, is already pretty fine
> granularity for a longer video, but still likely to just miss the
> short information you're looking for.  And it's tedious.
>
> Good videos need a script, a good speaker, and a clear concept.  They
> need to be concise and to the point.  Missing one of these (or any
> other issue, like a cough or deviation from the topic, missed-out
> paragraph from the script, break in the storyline, bad audio quality,
> or a mumbling speaker) cannot be edited easily afterwards.  You need
> to know exactly what you're doing, before recording.
>
> Is there a way to produce a video in a collaborative effort?  I don't
> know, but I have collaborated in writing texts, different people
> adding their ideas and refining the text, improving it further and
> further.  I assume that you're pretty much alone when producing a
> video (and I bow to those who do).
>
> Maybe there are places where a video is just the right media to
> present an idea (e.g., to show how tie one's shoes), and maybe a
> textual tutorial about DT (which will, of course, contain images)
> could even benefit from a video here or there.  But in general I'm
> convinced that videos are not the right thing to teach software.
>
> So, I'm happy that the DT team provides a manual, instead of putting
> time into producing videos.  Again, I bow to those making videos, but
> I'd rather see that time and effort being spent on improving the
> manaual.  It could need a hand here or there.
>
>
> --
> http://stefan-klinger.deo/X
> I prefer receiving plain text messages, not exceeding 32kB. /\/
>   \
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>


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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Bruce Williams]

Ricardo,
Here's the link again... save you having to go look for it. :)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlYWvzmJQTrRq7JrYdD7k3-8-v-uHnhK_
Cheers,
Bruce Williams
--
Mobile:  +61 41 250 6349

audio2u.com
brucewilliamsphotography.com
shuttersincpodcast.com
sinelanguagepodcast.com

e-mail  | Twitter  |
LinkedIn  | Facebook
 | Soundcloud
 | Quora

--




On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 10:36 AM Ricardo Kozmate.Net 
wrote:

> Em 23/10/18 22:29, Ricardo Kozmate.Net escreveu:
> > [...]
>
> PS:
> I note that I subscribed and I hope to take a look at the set of videos
> someone annouced just a few posts ago :-)
>
> Yes, hoping more for ideas than lists of buttons to push.
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>


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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Ricardo Kozmate.Net]

Em 23/10/18 22:29, Ricardo Kozmate.Net escreveu:

[...]


PS:
I note that I subscribed and I hope to take a look at the set of videos 
someone annouced just a few posts ago :-)


Yes, hoping more for ideas than lists of buttons to push.

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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Ricardo Kozmate.Net]

Em 23/10/18 18:25, dt-l...@stefan-klinger.de escreveu:
> [...]

Good videos need a script, a good speaker, and a clear concept.  They
need to be concise and to the point. [.

Is there a way to produce a video in a collaborative effort?  [...]

Maybe there are places where a video is just the right media to
present an idea (e.g., to show how tie one's shoes), and maybe a
textual tutorial about DT (which will, of course, contain images)
could even benefit from a video here or there.  But in general I'm
convinced that videos are not the right thing to teach software.


Hi.

(I also have done some teaching (always in person, never at a distance) 
and am currently a online student of an university (doing mathematics) - 
meaning I am no expert at all, but I've seen things... :-)


I agree with most of what you say. I think videos can be great for 
global ideas and main concepts. For DT that means, less "what buttons to 
push", more of showing ideas. Maybe that means less teaching DT, more 
teaching digital editing, with 'any' tool while showing it with DT.


Ricardo André

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Re: [darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[Jason Polak]

That is an interesting viewpoint. Surprising as it may seem, I think a
lot of people like watching tutorial videos. I am not one of them, but
they are very popular. In one sense, it is easier for some people
because you can see where the mouse cursor goes as well, instead of
following menu->submenu instructions.

Also, although darktable has evolved quite a bit since I started using
the 1.4 or so version, most of the basic editing is still the same.

People also like making videos. I think for people doing that in their
spare time, if that's the kind of documentation they like to create, the
fact that text is more searchable isn't going to matter much considering
making videos is more like a hobby.

Jason

On 2018-10-23 01:25 PM, dt-l...@stefan-klinger.de wrote:
> tl;dr: Videos are hard to make, antiquate fast, and are hard to search.
> 
> Having done teaching, I've had lengthy discussions about tutorial
> videos, lecture recordings, interactive apps and stuff like that.
> Here's my personal view:
> 
> Don't get me wrong: I *sincerely appreciate* the effort put into
> producing tutorial videos.  And I *admire* the required enthusiasm and
> discipline.
> 
> Video makers are heroes!
> 
> However, I think that the required effort stands in no justifiable
> relation to the benefit.  And I'm sorry to say that.  Here's why:
> 
> Software evolves.  And while it's already difficult to keep text based
> documentation in sync with changes in software, this is exceptionally
> difficult for videos.  In the best case it's only menus moving to
> other places, in the worst case a concept is modelled completely
> different in a new software version.

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[darktable-user] Thanks for the manual. Thanks for the videos, but...

[dt-list]

tl;dr: Videos are hard to make, antiquate fast, and are hard to search.

Having done teaching, I've had lengthy discussions about tutorial
videos, lecture recordings, interactive apps and stuff like that.
Here's my personal view:

Don't get me wrong: I *sincerely appreciate* the effort put into
producing tutorial videos.  And I *admire* the required enthusiasm and
discipline.

Video makers are heroes!

However, I think that the required effort stands in no justifiable
relation to the benefit.  And I'm sorry to say that.  Here's why:

Software evolves.  And while it's already difficult to keep text based
documentation in sync with changes in software, this is exceptionally
difficult for videos.  In the best case it's only menus moving to
other places, in the worst case a concept is modelled completely
different in a new software version.

Text can be searched.  And thus can be found by your favourite search
engine.  There is no full text seach for videos (and I don't know
about a usable search function for audio), so unless the video is
heavily annotated with metadata and a transcript (more work!) it will
be quite painful to find the section in the lengthy video that covers
what you're looking for.  Or to find the one among a collection of
many short tutorials that you're looking for.

Also, you can easily skim through text.  I find it hard to do so in
video, jumping in steps of, say, 5s, is already pretty fine
granularity for a longer video, but still likely to just miss the
short information you're looking for.  And it's tedious.

Good videos need a script, a good speaker, and a clear concept.  They
need to be concise and to the point.  Missing one of these (or any
other issue, like a cough or deviation from the topic, missed-out
paragraph from the script, break in the storyline, bad audio quality,
or a mumbling speaker) cannot be edited easily afterwards.  You need
to know exactly what you're doing, before recording.

Is there a way to produce a video in a collaborative effort?  I don't
know, but I have collaborated in writing texts, different people
adding their ideas and refining the text, improving it further and
further.  I assume that you're pretty much alone when producing a
video (and I bow to those who do).

Maybe there are places where a video is just the right media to
present an idea (e.g., to show how tie one's shoes), and maybe a
textual tutorial about DT (which will, of course, contain images)
could even benefit from a video here or there.  But in general I'm
convinced that videos are not the right thing to teach software.

So, I'm happy that the DT team provides a manual, instead of putting
time into producing videos.  Again, I bow to those making videos, but
I'd rather see that time and effort being spent on improving the
manaual.  It could need a hand here or there.


-- 
http://stefan-klinger.deo/X
I prefer receiving plain text messages, not exceeding 32kB. /\/
  \

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