Re: The tone of discussion on this list
I appreciate the reply, but apologize but I'm still confused, and I think the lack of a definition is a cop-out and I find it ironic that someone who has the ability to moderate discussion cannot even define the rubric they are using to do so! > Israel has been murdering Muslims for > countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land Amin is indeed being slightly graphic but this is a factually true statement: * Palestinians (who are mostly muslims) are killed nearly daily: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties, and by international law * Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements Do you take issue with him using the word "murder" rather than "kill" or "shoot"? Do we have guidelines to know what is the appropriate terminology? It's unfortunate that we need to have these conversations, but when people's lives and families 'dying' (to use the least inflammatory word possible), how do you expect people to reply? > Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and > oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable." This is merely Amin expressing his view of the situation. - Ghassan Kanafani Debian Contributor ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, March 21, 2019 2:47 PM, Alexander Wirt wrote: > On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that > > you're using? > > No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if > people think that sentences like: > > "Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for > countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land. > Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and > oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable." > (Just one example). > > are acceptable on our lists they are wrong. We can of course now start > constructing sentences like those for muslims, hindus or whatever ethnical > group. But I don't want to see someone going that route. > > So we either discuss in a constructive way or we should stop that discussion > now. > > Alex
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
Hi Alex, Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that you're using? Too often the excuse of anti-semitism is used as a smokescreen to avoid criticism of the Israeli government and their policies. (See the many thinkpieces written about Ilhan Omar in the USA) I have no issue with Jewish people, and it may surprise you that Arab and other muslims in the middle east are also semitic people. I hope other people can think about this good quote: "True peace is not merely the absence of tension: it is the presence of justice." - MLK Jr. - Ghassan Kanafani Debian Contributor ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, March 21, 2019 2:27 PM, Alexander Wirt wrote: > Hi, > > this is a warning and note from us listmasters. Please come back to a > civilized discussion style. I don't want to see any antisemitism or > antisrealism on that list. Either you have something substantial to add to > the debconf discussion or please don't take part in that discussion. > Otherwise listmaster will have to honor that behaviour. > > Alex - Debian Listmaster
Re: Debconf in Israel
Roger, Respectfully speaking, being vocal against apartheid and international crimes is the opposite of hate speech. Furthermore, I think bringing up other countries is off-topic. As Avi correctly mentioned before, > I think we can safely agree that past actions are not the same as ongoing > actions. The objections raised include ongoing actions, not just past ones. There is an active international boycott campaign against Israel with the goal to change the apartheid policies. https://bdsmovement.net/cultural-boycott Absolutely other areas in the world have similar issues, but that is outside the scope here considering the ongoing violence and active campaign, and I would hope we don't use other conflicts to be dismissive of this one. I would also humbly encourage my european friends here to inform themselves of the situation (if they haven't already), considering that many european countries are responsible for starting and supporting the ongoing conflict. Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, March 21, 2019 1:13 PM, Roger Shimizu wrote: > On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 1:59 AM Nasir El-Amin > nasir_ela...@protonmail.com wrote: > > > Here one Palestinian user of Debian points out he would be excluded: > > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/b3cen2/debconf20_to_be_hosted_in_haifa_israel/eiyxby6/ > > How about we agree that Debconf never take place in a country that would > > exclude someone based on their religion or national origin as a firm > > policy? I’d also be advocating against a Debconf in Saudi Arabia because > > they exclude Israelis. > > I'm sorry you didn't say so when we had debconf in Taiwan, where ever > occupied by Spanish, Nederlanders, Japanese, and Chinese. > That didn't prevent a success conference. > > We had fun in Taiwan. And I hope we have fun in Israel, too. > Please stop hate speech. > > Cheers, > > > > Roger Shimizu, GMT +9 Tokyo > PGP/GPG: 4096R/6C6ACD6417B3ACB1
Re: Debconf in Israel
Thank you for these emails. Providing tacit approval for apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and international crimes ought to be antithetical with Debconf's - and the entire Debian project's - mission. I share Nasir El-Amin's frustration and feeling of betrayal over this poor decision, and am also actively organizing a response. As a minor note also, implying that Poland has taken German land, considering the history of World War 2, and equating that to the present-day Israeli occupation of Palestinian land, is incorrect, dissimilar, and might be construed as being said in bad faith. - Ghassan Kanafani (nom de guerre since it's unsafe to criticize zionism due to blacklists by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Mission and others) ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, March 21, 2019 12:36 PM, Nasir El-Amin wrote: > That’s not even a logical example we’re talking about an ongoing apartheid > and continued theft of land by a illegitimate state that’s violating > international law and treaties. Your trying to water down what’s going on in > Israel. United Nations has described Israel as an apartheid state. When you > internationally choose to have a technical conference in a apartheid state > you are supporting that regime and supporting its criminal and human rights > violations against Palestinians. > > UN Human Rights Report says Israel is an Apartheid State: > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/16/is-israel-an-apartheid-state-this-u-n-report-says-yes/ > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 9:30 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz > wrote: > >> On 3/21/19 5:10 PM, Nasir El-Amin wrote: >>> Debian having a conference in contested land where military conflict and >>> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable. >> >> According to this logic, you wouldn't be allowed to host a DebConf in almost >> any >> country in the world as almost any stretch of land has changed owners, >> deliberately >> or by force over the time. >> >> The farm of my great grand-parents is now owned by Polish people and the >> land around >> it which used to be Germany is now Poland. But that's a historic fact that >> cannot be >> reverted. That doesn't mean I boycott Poland or Polish people in any way. In >> fact, one >> of my best friends is from Poland. >> >> Adrian >> >> -- >> .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz >> : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org >> `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de >> `- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913
